VPI bearing oil/grease?

Stringreen: Your known affermative action for VPI, is well known. Your lack of "knowledge on this issue" is well noted!!!

Slaw, thanks for the feedback on the Motul V300 oil. Pleased to see you are happy with the outcome. I have also used the Motul V300 to great effect in lubricating the TT motor. In the Final TT the motor is fairly large and has a spindle/thrustpad/oil pan/double bush arrangement. Changing to Motul in the TT motor gave a big improvement in lower noise floor and improved resolution as well.

I've been listening more, here's my thoughts...

These type of issues shouldn't be of much consequence until one has established their own "life-time" system. By this, I mean, taken on a whole, you're system meets all of your requirements, room volume/system output, component synergy, an established reference cartridge/system adjustments for this, ROOM ACOUSTICS.

If you're at the level of what oil to use in your tt bearing, all of these (and probably more) issues should have been addressed.

Here's what I'm hearing now...

After all of my grease/oil experiences, I'm loving the latest Motul 300v 5w40 in my non-inverted VPI bearing, using a custom outboard motor enclosure and #2 silk bead cord. When you take as a whole, the different spectrum of recordings out there and with current ones being more "forward/bright", you have to find a happy medium.

Right now, the Motul 5w40 is my happy medium. I hear, especially in the bass region, more detail. There is also a sense of warmth, that on the wide variety of recordings, I translate in to this being a "go to" oil for me.

I could certainly see that trying 5w30 may be worthwhile. Only you can decide for yourselves. Me, for now, I'm going to sit back and enjoy, finally!

Dover: I purchased a quart of Motul 300V 5w40 and installed it as I've done other oils, as stated above. (The dealer had no 5w30 and since I found that (standard 40w) had the basics, regarding sonics that I like, I went with the 5w40). I put on the Classic re-issue of Peter Gabriel "So", (my regular issue is too forward sounding and the whole sonic frequency range seems to me not integrated well) it has always been somewhat darker with a little (more pronounced bass). The overall presentation is more "quick on it's feet", bass is not dark sounding and has nice definition and solidity, some faint inner detail I've barely heard before is much more noticable now. I'll post again after more listening regarding how it's done on various records but this is my initial finding to keep the thread going.

Brf,
The Final Audio uses oil in an inverted bearing. The tolerances are very fine and the oil holds. Reseating the subplatter/platter takes about 6 hours when I change the oil. In the 25 plus years I have owned the Final it has never run dry.
Most inverted bearings run grease as you say but there are some exceptions.

On my Final Audio ( 22kg platter/inverted bearing ) I use the 5W40 (motul)

Dover, how do use this oil on an inverted bearing? Don't most use grease?

Frogman: Yes, the heavier, thicker lube makes for a less lively, thicker, muddy, uninvolving sound that makes listening a chore.

Dover: Thanks for the Motul suggestion, I remember now, hearing guys involved in motorcyle racing mentioning this oil.

Along similar lines, what do project owners use for lubing the spindle?

Thanks, Dover I will look into the Motul; it's getting to be time for my annual bearing cleaning and relubing.

Frogman/Slaw,
If you can, try and get some Motul V300 Power Racing, either 0W30 or 5W40.
It is simply the best synthetic oil on the planet, a double ester synthetic, using extract from Copra. It is highly unctuous, which means a film will adhere to non moving parts and very slippery. Mobil 1 is like sandpaper in comparison. Most of the race cars with Mobil 1 stickers on them are not usually using it. I have tried various, molybdenum sulphates, laboratory grade oils, etc on TT's ranging from Linn/Oracle/Roksan/Townsend and many others. On the Roksan which has a very fine bearing, the 0W30 worked well. On my Final Audio ( 22kg platter/inverted bearing ) I use the 5W40. Unless the bearing is low tolerance for conventional non inverted bearings the 0W30 is fine.
In my experience some of the teflon based products and lower grade oils increase wear markedly.

Slaw, thanks for the update. Not entirely clear what your final assessment is. I agree that different lubes all have slightly different tonal signatures in any given tt; best in this case is clearly system dependent. What is not so system dependent, and my main issue with the thicker the oil/grease, was that the thicker the lube the less lively and speed stable the tt's sound was. Did you arrive at any conclusions regarding this?

Yes, I just changed. ( the amount of any fluid is of great importance also).

I just put a little of the Dupont on the ceramic bearing and in the bearing well. I applied some Mobile One 5-50w synthetic to the shaft. This is an obvious difference!

Maybe at another time I'll try 30w. For now, today, I'll just listen.

Any of you that haven't tried these kinds of things, should.

This gives a weightier outlook on the whole sonic picture.
A little too much for me. I'll try something different.

OK, this is it party people: This is REAL TIME! I just put in 40w (4 drops in the well, one drop in the bearing shaft bottom & one drop on top of the bearing after it was placed in the shaft.

This my friends seems to be the right compromise for me right now. Are you getting it? This is a system dependant way of (voicing, if you will) your system. The more resolving your system is, the more you'll be able to (immediately tell the difference).

.......I may be going back to the grease soon?????

Frogman: Since my last post, I switched to Mobile One 50w synthetic, (and changed my tube compliment). I feel I need to try any make a point... I look at the VPI tt lube as an ongoing area in which, based on any system upgrades, has to be looked at as an issue that will need to be addressed on an ongoing basis.

I stand by my assessment of the Dupont grease as the absolute best I've tried, FWIW. Never tried Royal Purple.

Stringreen,

VPI uses Super Lube. At least that's what Jack sent me for my Classic.

VPI sells their own lubrication - it comes in a hypodermic type of applicator, and although it is called Magic Lube and is probably expensive for what it is, I know that it is the recommended stuff that VPI sanctions. (It looks like lithium grease)

Ok after looking at the Super Lube that Music Direct offers I look it up and found it at Graingers
http://www.grainger.com/product/44N750?gclid=CPuj_5HEgrsCFeHm7AodoCIAog&cm_mmc=PPC:GooglePLA-_-Lubrication-_-Lubricants-_-44N750&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=44N750&ef_id=UONZ4QAAUmx2ZV@-:20131126131422:s

Dopogue: FWIW, I use lint free swabs on a stick along with 99.8% pure isopropyl alcohol. No problems at all.

Frogman: I think speed stability has to be a consideration regarding any lube. Regarding leaner/weightier tonality, I'd say the DuPont goes towards weightier, but with a solidity that wasn't there before.

There are a host of other system variables that can make this issue a positive or negative. I'm currently testing preamp isolation and that is 'huge' with regards to the overall sonic picture. I'm glad this issue came up again, for it's easy to get "settled" on a system's sonics and then, change just one thing (like preamp isolation) and the whole systems' sonic picture can change rapidly.

Slaw, thanks for the clarification. Earlier you said that you agreed that the sound was leaner with oil vs lithium grease. I also noticed less-stable pitch with the grease; the main reason that I stopped using the grease. You mention that the DuPont grease yields an improvement over the lithium grease. Is the improvement related to tonality (leaner/weightier) or to speed stability? Thanks.

Re Slick 50, it took me forever to get the sludge that stuff left behind out of a TNT-2 bearing well.

Frogman: No, not the Royal Purple. It seems a little higher viscosity and in applying it, feels more stable. I used it my first round for about 7 months, looked at it and could not notice any breakdown at all. In that time, there was no noticable increase/decrease in platter rotations after turning the motor off as I've experienced in every other lube I've tried. A slight sonic improvement over the white lithium I was using also. I use a ceramic ball bearing.

I bought a tube of the Royal Purple and applied it last night.

Tim

Dover,
I remember you mentioning it, perhaps even in this very thread, but I wonder how much of an issue it is for a turntable bearing where the contact surface is so small, as is the amount of the lubricant used. The very lubricant VPI recommends and uses contains PTFE as well.

Beware teflon additives and oils. A fully qualified engineer ( proper engineer, Imperial College London ) advised me that the teflon additives can attach to the metal surfaces and that metal particles can embed themselves in the teflon, resulting in increased bearing wear.
My experience using teflon oil in a TT in the 80's was, after checking the bearing after 6 months, the oil was the dirtiest I had ever seen. Never used teflon oil again.

In defense of Slick 50, tests done on a Chevy 6 cylinder engine by the University of Utah Engineering Experiment Station found that after treatment with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1 percent, the output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1 percent, and fuel economy improved as well. Unfortunately, the same tests concluded that "There was a pressure drop across the oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." Oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after the treatment, indicating that engine wear increased

Slaw, is this the "Royal Purple" grease? How would you compare it's viscosity to that of white lithium grease? Thanks.

FWIW: I've found THE solution...NLGI #2 w/DuPont Teflon.

This is the BEST sounding lube I've run across. Better yet, it DOESN'T break down over time! Very important.

I am using a non-inverting TNT bearing on a HW-19 Mk IV. Sorry for the lack of clarity. I recently have been experimenting with oil (differing weights) and the white lithium grease. I have installed a new ceramic bearing before experimenting. I've used 10w50 synthetic, standard 30 & 40W and the grease. First, the ceramic ball bearing is definately more revealing. In my system, the thinner the oil = leaner sound. A little too lean for me. I've settled on the lithium grease.

****I also find assertions that oil vs. grease makes audible difference rather absurd. Once you get the platter spinning at the correct speed, why would it matter what you used to lubricate it?**** - Actusreus

A friendly reminder that time and time again listeners have heard the effects of system adjustments or tweaks that "couldn't possibly make a difference". It's a minor miracle that a rock scraping a groove in plastic can extract something resembling music. The fact that music is so incredibly complex as far as what it takes to record/reproduce all it's subtleties makes it that much more miraculous. It should not be surprising that anything that might affect the way the platter spins, adding more or less damping or drag to it, might effect the sound. Try it, you might be surprised.

I just re-read the thread and it appears that there might be different types of bearings used on VPI tables. Since you didn't mention what table you had, I assumed it was an inverted bearing such as used in the Scout or the Classic. I'm not familiar with well-type bearings. It always helps to provide detailed information when you describe your problem so the advice can be more tailored and it helps avoid confusion. So what table do you actually have?

Slaw: Your original post indicated that somewhere along the way confusion, or a mixup if you prefer, occurred with respect to what part of the tt the advice was given to. The manual for the Classic is clear as to what lubricant to use and where, and I find it hard to believe anyone at VPI would tell you to use motor oil on the platter bearing. The viscosity of motor oil makes it inadequate for lubricating the platter bearing. Lithium grease is thick enough to stay where it matters unlike oil that would simply drip down the shaft with gravity.

I also find assertions that oil vs. grease makes audible difference rather absurd. Once you get the platter spinning at the correct speed, why would it matter what you used to lubricate it? It doesn't make sense, especially with the SDS. If you can't get your platter to spin smoothly and at correct speed, that's another matter. Just use white lithium grease as VPI recommends once a year and be done with it. I'm sure you can find plenty of other things in your system to experiment with.

Actusreus: I don't think I inquired about motor lubricant. Just platter/bearing lubricant.
Frogman: You're correct in your assessment of lithium grease vs. oil and their effects on the sound. I've been experimenting...

Slaw:
I think you're a bit confused to begin with. There are two parts of a VPI table that need to be lubricated: the platter bearing and the motor.
You use white lithium grease for the platter bearing and a 40-weight motor oil for the motor. Two different parts, two different lubricants. I don't understand why the thread is 38-post long.

VPI recommends white lithium grease available at any auto parts store for about $5. Teflon oil is NOT recommended by VPI.
I can't remember what oil VPI recommends for the motor. Contact Mike at VPI, and please post your findings... ;-)

Sorry for necro-ing this thread. But have a more or less the same question. I own a VPI Scout and lately I have noticed that it isn't running so smooth anymore. So it is time for some maintenance I guess.

I was adviced to use Telfon oil for the platter bearing. Can anyone comment on this. Also while browesing this thread I read about oil for the motor. How do I do that do I have to take the motor appart?

Very interesting. So less is more. Thanks for the tip!

How about rotating the bearing periodically? What I mean is to remove the three screws attaching the bearing to the plinth and rotating the bearing one-third turn and reattaching it to the plinth? This would put a "fresh" surface of the bronze insert against the pressure of the pull of the belt on the spindle. Any benefit for this?

Bpoletti, the correct amount of oil will stay in the well, and not work it's way out of the well. No need for your "oil trap". A tip:

A few years ago, after cleaning and relubing my TNT bearing, I was dismayed at what initially seemed like boring, unexciting sound; or as some would say, no PRAT. Turned out that I had put too much oil in the well. The excess oil had accumulated around the top of the bearing well's circular top plate, and was making contact with the bottom of the platter spindle's circular bottom plate. As the platter turned, the excess oil was putting drag on it. The sonic effect was not subtle. Beware of too much oil (or grease).

I agree if it's thick oil or grease. But would light oil be a different story?

Too much oil= soft muddy sound. The bearing will keep itself lubricated with the proper oil/grease. Simply re-apply occasionally.

Being an inverted bearing, how would it work if a pool of light oil were deposited in the bearing such that when the shaft was inserted the oil would work its way up the and out of the top of the bearing. A small felt concentric ring around the bearing would absorb any excess oil and keep the top of the bearing lubricated. The shaft itself would spin in a very thin pool of oil. It wouldn't take much oil to do the job.

I'm looking at an early TNT bearing as I write this. It might work though there would be some "settling time" involved to get the shaft all the way down to the point where the ball bearing is in contact with the thrust plate.

Any thoughts (as I build my table)?

All,

Remember, that in the case of inverted bearings ... well, they're upside down.

It's been a long, long time (20+ years) since I've had one in my posession, and the issue of lubrication didn't come up.

Typically, inverted bearings have some sort of jeweled thrust bearing which doesn't require lube. As far as the side walls are concerned (in general), the oil needs to be viscuous enough to not seep out the bottom.

Unless someone has an innovative means of controlling the flow of the lube out the bottom of an inverted bearing, it appears to me that it would mandate a very thick oil, which in turn would mandate loose tolerances.

I'd love to hear more about this ...

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Thom_mackris, "the voice of reason". Thanks for another great post.

Frogman, I owned P.Lurnes Audiomeca TT with inverted bearing and had no idea what lubricant to use. But I own now Kuzma Stabi Ref. with inverted bearing and I orderd lubricant from Kuzma. I got the oil and not some grease.
It is dependant of the bearing construction as I think or understand the problem. But I am not a technical guy so no claims reg. the 'truth'.
Regards,

Hi all,

Some good general principles were laid out above. In general, you’re balancing out two parameters against each other: bearing play and damping. There’s no hard and fast rule. In addition to the local parameters within your control (your turntable drive system - motor, controller, drive belt, platter/mass, bearing play), you may have to adjust for the tuning of the rest of your system.

To maintain your sanity, I’d focus on the turntable to the exclusion of your downstream components, but I mention them above, mainly to make a point that this all fits together into a coherent whole.

I’ve not played with VPI’s, but everyone whose opinion I respect, tells me that they have enough play in them to work best with a lightweight lithium grease (think bicycle wheel bearings). At the other extreme, Galibiers, along the vintage Micro Seikis tend to work best with lubricants that are closer to water in viscosity than they are to something like 5W motor oil.

This is where I take issue with the use of thicker oils in my ‘tables – oils that can work, but which require a multi-hour seating process. It would be a great thing to build up the Galibier mythology, but it hurts the music.

Bearing play (as you’d correctly guess) is mitigated by increasing viscosity, and in general, the less play the better. Damping is a bit more complicated and here’s where the listening comes into play (to balance bearing rigidity against over-damping).

The unfortunate reality of all hi-fi components is that you can damp things too much. This is another case of having too much of a good thing. You’ll read various threads on how there’s nary a person (for example) who uses the silicone damping fluid in the Tri-Planar tonearms. The general consensus is that while an occasional “nasty” is tamed, it comes at the expense of a fairly ho-hum sound overall.

The same holds true in lubricant choice for turntable bearings, speaker design, and amplification design. It’s extremely challenging for example, to filter a power supply to the point where it’s quiet, but that still has great transient response. The common error with many “good” amplification components is that they get the quiet part right, but miss the nuance and subtle transient details. Getting to quiet is comparatively easy, but quiet with no sacrifice in musical nuance is a very challenge to pull off.

The good news is that experimentation won’t do any harm, and you have a system tuning component available to you. I’d advise against staying away from oils with detergents in them. Also, some oils will form a varnish after a while (3-In-One), but even this can be cleaned with something like carburetor cleaner. The synthetic motor oils are fine.

Here’s the link to more of my comments on the subject: http://www.galibierdesign.com/prd_bearing.html.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

My absolute favorite lubricant for ALL metallic and/or ceramic TT platter/spindle bearings is A. J. van den Hul's (of all people ;--) Spindle Oil. It's unlike anything else out there (that would be appropriate for a TT) and you can find out why here: http://www.vandenhul.com/p_IK01.aspx
The best price (I've found in the US) is here: http://www.eugenehifi.com/VanDenHul/htm/van_den_Hul_Accessories.htm
(Acoustic Sounds charges $25 more!)

This product has been around for at least ten years, but few people seem to know about it. The better the turntable, the more noticable the increased quiet. There used to be a disclaimer about not using it with bearings that had nylon/plastic/Delrin parts. Maybe they don't make bearings with those materials anymore?
.

Dopogue said:

STP Oil Treatment is awfully thick and used to be recommended for tonearm damping because of its high viscosity. I know you said only 2-3 drops, but still ...

Yeah, I know... that was my thought as well. But it's not as viscous as grease. Maybe it wouldn't be the best thing to use if your listening room gets cold, but my room is never below 68 degrees, at least when I'm in it.

It has worked well for me but YMMV.

STP Oil Treatment is awfully thick and used to be recommended for tonearm damping because of its high viscosity. I know you said only 2-3 drops, but still ...

br3098 thanks for the tip!

When I used to work in a machine shop (college job, many lifetimes ago) the guy responsible for the high precision lathes used to use STP Oil Treatment to lube his machine. Other freinds of mine who are shooters use the same stuff to lube their reloading presses. On a whim I have tried it with my VPI Aries and I think that it works great.

The trick, as with all lubribation for VPI decks, is to not use too much lubricant. For a standard (non-inverted) bearing use 2-3 drops into the bottom of the well and a THIN coating on the bearing itself. Thin means almost microscopically thin - you are not trying to actually lube the bearing, but rather to fill in the microscopic grooves in the metal. Capillary action will take care of the rest after the oil heats up.

I have owned one HW19 MK I, one MK II, two MK IV platters over the years; and now a TNT MK V platter on my TNT. I have also checked a few similar platters owned by others. Every single one had some degree of noticeable play/rocking in the bearing well. Markd51's info is correct except for the implication that lithium grease, or some other type of high-viscosity oil is not appropiate for the older non-inverted type bearings. The bearings were not machined to tight enough tolerances to make the use of high-viscosity oils/grease impractical. It is appropriate to use them; or more accurately, it can be. This per VPI's recommendation.

Again, it is most definitely worthwhile to experiment with lithium grease in these bearings. It will make the table quieter, and les bright, but potentially less dynamic. A worthwhile, and easily reversible tweak.