Vinyl vs. CD

Must agree with Albert. Once you've heard correcly set up Analog, be it LP or tape, there isn't much choice. Digital is getting better, but I won't be giving up my vinyl, this time.

Albertporter - can you please post everywhere that I read online? Sedond & Carl - I've read and enjoyed posts from both of you, but exchanges such as these really should be kept to e-mail correspondance.

Have we forgotten that Mar00 has posted a legitimate question concerning his choices in playback? It would be informative to all of us if we could respond with hard, clear information as to how to improve our systems. Many of you have experiences that are valuable. Any chance of airing these treasures of knowledge without the personal attacks? Also, the ancient rule of avoiding Politics and Religion is valid. Either subject is bound to stir controversy and problems. Certainly I have my opinion, and plan to voice my choice on election day, and leave Audiogon to the pursuit of music. I believe a tiny amount of respect for other members choices will allow the postings to remain on subject. If you disagree, attacks on others members will neither change their mind, nor will it encourage others to share their information. I believe that others at this site are in need of better sound, just as I am.

Hey Carl_eber, have you tried those Radio Shack flat speaker cables yet? I've only compared then to lamp cord and original Monster, but they're the greatest! Haha, I love all you guys.

bush go to a better school than i?!? HA! in yer dreams, speculator-man!

Most of my quotes are not speculation, but personal experience. The rest are opinions based on experience, and NOT SPECULATION THAT IS NOT BASED ON HAVING NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL WITH A PARTICULAR PRODUCT, like the speculation that YOU are want to do, seemingly all the time...........................Whether or not you personally like those experiences of mine (or disagree with them), is of no importance to me, Doug. I am NOT small minded, it is you who is small minded. Quoting what I have said in the past only proves that you know how to right click, copy, and paste (those monkeys you evolved from can do it just as easily), doesn't disprove ANYTHING I have said (also makes me believe that you are somehow obsessed with me). YOU SAYING THAT I AM SMALL MINDED IS IN DIRECT VIOLATIUON TO THE RULES, btw, not that the Audiogon staff care....unless of course it was me that was violating those rules......................And regarding Bush, you're just jealous that he went to a better school than you did! You've got 4 days to get over it...

jeez, carl, i only contributed to this thread cuz of actual experiences i've had w/preamps, which may (or may not) benefit some of the readers, & all i get back is defensiveness & ill-will. of *course* i'm speculating about your preamp - DOH! hard *not* to, as it seems to be such a secret. here's some of *your* exact quotes, all speculative: "I'd also lay odds that you don't really think much of the rest of my equipment, either."..."Perhaps we are all biased by what we like, but I submit that my system is radically more transparent than most, because I know how to set up a room acoustically."..."I haven't seen the specs on the particular ceramic midrange that is in the Kharmas (it's not Accuton, it's supposedly much better), but I can tell you that the Accuton ceramic drivers are not any faster than the Esotar mid."..."One thing I will not stand for, are those individuals on here who are just looking to argue with me about this product line. I know what I hear, and I don't care what any of you hear...especially if you (or even your claims that the designer) thinks this product sounds better through a separate linestage. That's about as wrong as it gets."..." I doubt the Dynavector "blows away" the BPS, but I haven't heard the Dynavector. If you wanna hear "blown away", you need to spend more IMO."..."How do I know that you are even telling the truth, firstly? I've compared the Phonomena to the latest version of the Black Cube, and the Phonomena was much more accurate, more musical, more dynamic, far had less ss "false edge", and was far better able to fine tune the capacitance and resistance loading...besides the gain. Frankly, I resent dealers (or "claimed former dealers" honking that they've heard it all before "in their store"...And claims like that don't mean jack anyhow, becuase no dealer's store I have visited, or heard of, had a set-up that was resolved enough to make adequate comparisons of ANY component, AND NEITHER HAS ANYONE ELSE I'VE KNOWN OR BEEN ACQUAINTED WITH (visited a dealer where even their best "demo rooms" were "up to suff").........................What makes you think you have heard a phono stage that is a better value than the Phonomena? If you think you have, then prove it to me verbally right here, rather than relying on your pompous attitude. Prove that there is a phono stage that represents a better value in the $600 range than the Phonomena, right now."..."And if Jeff Kalt feels his analog output stage is of poor quality (that is also an unsubstantiated comment that somehow gets by the censors and seems like a total falsehood to me), then he needs to get out of this business, and stop making CD players."..."My only conclusion from this exchange...is that Doug Sedond is on the Audiogon staff, but hasn't been up front about it. My position is, I try to be honest. For that, I'm being victimized by those who seem less honest."..."There is also no valid reason why an extra active component in the signal path would make any improvement on the CD player, unless it is a less resolved, and less musical presentation that you're after (and there certainly is no reason to be after such a thing). I stand by the performance of my player when run directly, and I do not accept any assertion that an additional linestage will improve its performance in any way, even if God himself says so, much less a mere human. Good day."..."Frankly, you don't need to know what preamp I use, because you will simply slight it, no matter how good it is."..."I reject the notion that the designers feel the CD player sounds better with a preamp." JEEZ, CARL, SURF THRU ANY THREAD, AND IT'S EASY TO FIND YER SPECULATION. FRANKLY, I'M TIRED OF ARGUING W/EWE YUST CUZ YURE PISSED-OFF THAT I THINK GEORGE BUSH IS A MENTAL MIDGET. SORRY YURE SO CLOSE-MINDED THAT YA CAN'T ASSESS SOMEONES OPINION ABOUT AUDIO RATIONALLY, YUST CUZ YA DON'T LIKE THEIR POLITICAL VIEWS!?! sorry, audiogon members, i will try to avoid rising to the bait in the future, & i will hopefully refrain from responding to carl's small-minded barbs pointed in my direction. doug

I am not speculating, and you are. And I don't *tink* anything, except in the restroom.

i don't demand anyone share my views, & i don't pretend anything. no pomposity on my part, either. my 2-cents worth, thrown in w/everyone else's, should, hopefully, help folks w/their audio systems. dunno about ewe, but it's helped me. i find it amusing that it's ok for *you* to speculate, but ya get annoyed when ya tink *others* do it. regards, doug

Doug, please do not pretend that you were not making a value judgement based on PURE SPECULATION (on YOUR part) of whatever linestage you think it is, that I own (when you said "if you would just get a good one, you wouldn't believe the improvement"). And frankly, I consider it a pompous attitude, that someone would feel that they are here simply because they can "help everyone save money". That assumes that such an individual would have "all the answers for all possible situations". I always thought of being here as being a function of sharing my own personal experiences with those who would listen, and if they are somehow helped by it, so much the better. I certainly do NOT assume that I will "help", by demanding that others share my point of view (and therefore "save money")....because that doesn't work, Doug. And this is not speculation on my part, this is fact. My point is, your views of audio are more subjective than mine, and nothing you have said is evidence to the contrary. That's fine, you are free to be that way, but it still annoys me, and I don't feel that it helps anyone. Whenever an ACTUAL personal experience is shared here (and NOT SPECULATION), then those who are interested are helped, it seems to me.

carl, i think ewe have an *excellent* vinyl rig, an *excellent* cd-player, an *exellent* amp. i owned the fono-stage ewe use, & dint care for it - a bit too dry for my tastes, but perhaps it matches better w/yer benz cartridge, which is known for being warm, than it did w/my ortofon. i can't comment about your speakers, as i don't recall them; or your preamp, cuz it's a secret. my *only* interest in these threads is to help audiophiles get the best sound for their dollars; the only speculation i see here is ewe feeling i'd make fun of your preamp. kind of absurd. i'm only the arbiter of what makes good sound in *my* system. same goes for you, i'm sure. but, i've found it very helpful learning about other's experiences in *their* systems. it's too bad ewe seem to make decisions based upon what ewe speculate are someone's ulterior motives, than to yust accept their comments at face-value. i've always felt open, honest discussion was key to learning, not yust in audio. regards, doug

Hexenboden I agree that digital is improving. I am really taken with some of the remasterings and prefer many to their vinyl counterparts. But as stated above, all things being equal so far as the recording is concerned, analog playback is better. Even on my modest rig, which is old, it is all too obvious. On a great analog set-up on the order of Albert’s with his absolute attention to ALL the details and set-up, the superiority and sheer musical enjoyment would be obvious to all who would listen. I don’t for a second doubt it. I now recognize the need to upgrade mine because the fact is I have more albums than CD's and it is worth it to me to do so. I currently listen to digital more than vinyl because of convenience. I would say I am currently 70/30. When digital was far worse than it currently is, I spent much more time listening to vinyl. If I were just getting started I would certainly be looking at the future of digital as my primary format. Digital will in the near future, I feel certain, offer that continuousness found in the very best analog along with the obvious benefits it has over analog. It is a matter of time. But I suspect this argument will continue on as long as there are die-hard analogphiles around. So far as Fear3000 post is concerned, I was quite surprised at the original post and it is the reason I commented. I have read his posts on AA and those who are familiar with him would be surprised at those remarks. He is a dedicated knowledgeable analog lover who I have learned much from.

Sedond, I'll not reveal it, simply for the reason that no matter what it is, guys like you will say things like you said ("just imagine how good it would be if you would just get a better one"). You know what? You don't even know what it is, nor have you heard it in my system, so frankly I don't need to hear what you have to say about it. It's irrelevant, and mere speculation. I'd also lay odds that you don't really think much of the rest of my equipment, either. That's fine, you aren't the arbiter of good sound. You don't decide what's what....thank goodness!

Please explain. Tubegroover: do you agree or not with Fear3000's previous post now that he disowns it ? Fear3000: do you prefer CDs or vinyl ?

Tubegroover, you're correct to be suspicious of the post, simply because I did not write it. Clearly someone's registered my moniker here, and is having some fun with this forum. Best Wishes, Felix

carl, i'm not surprised that yer vinyl rig surpasses the quality of yer cd rig. but, yust *imagine* the improvements to yer vinyl yude realize w/an upgrade to yer preamp. i only have to assume that yer preamp could use upgrading, as ewe previously mentioned not wanting to reveal its make/model because ewe said "i'd make fun of it". well, all joking aside, i tink yude really be amazed how much improvement a good preamp can make. not that it could possibly improve the sound of yer res-audio cd-player run straight-in... ;~) doug

Surely you jest Fear3000 (Felix) especially coming from a vinylphile like yourself? But I must agree. CD recordings are improving. In addition the remasterings, especially of rock is easier to listen to than the vinyl of the same in most cases. All things being equal, Carl sums it up quite nicely, the continuousness (resolution) of vinyl is still top dog on an absolute level and I bet all doubting Thomas would be convinced if they could hear a analog great set-up. That said my digital front end with the Bel Canto has put listener fatigue in remission for the time being and I sure welcome the convenience. Now it is time to work on my analog front end. When is this ever going to end?

No more digital/analog nightmare?Sony have THE answer? Look at analog and digital recording,resonably good whatever,but then you have too reproduce the studio work in your home,its here it ALL begins. Gramofhone,making mekano movement to elect.impuls, dont work.Nobody who have been in a studio and listened to reel_music would say that a grammo can sound like that. At least 20% are missing.But we recon what we hear as our Analog alternative. Digital Are better!Not much are missing,and we learn! BUT you have to use digital filter on a digital recording, and analog on a analog recording and shape it likewise. Thats why SONY has placed 9 koefc.filters on there better CD.s since -96 so you can listen to take thr right one, at a spec.recording.But with all the standards in use while recording it is hard to make it funktion,Thats one of the reson to SuperAudio CD,to take controll over All What is happening in the studio,so that we only have to think about "Getting the right fase,The current in the diff countries in the world Even SONY can get controll over". So grammos are a relic fromlast centure.But analog recordings vill survive. Excuse my spelling, Greetings from Sweden

Forget Vinyl. Why would you want to hear cracks and pops, wow and flutter, groove sounds and a myriad of other distortions. Only masochists would ! Granted, original CDs sounded strident but that has changed with improvements in recordings and production. Redbook CD is the medium that should satisfy 99.99% of audiophiles almost regardless of the equipment they use.

Unfortunately, both formats are necessary. I already stated that the majority of new music is not released as LP. It would indeed be a shame to miss out on all of the new music, some of which is excellent. Anyway, Carl's description is accurate as to some of the advantages of LP, and it really frustrates me to hear what my analog system is capable of, and not have access to many of the new artists. I can only hope that some new digital format will eventually come along and equal the best (analog) LP system. Truly, I would LOVE that to happen, I am ready for something SIMPLE that would make me happy. So far though, simple and excellence has been about as accessible as finding a new Porsche 9 series at econo box car prices. I originally hoped too, that the SACD format would be the salvation in this matter. Sony has (almost) the resources of Bill Gates, and is positioned with software to back up the venture. It is regrettable that Sony's desire for even greater profit margins are so important, that it smothers the possibility to provide excellence in a new format. Don't get me wrong, I have Sony products all over my home, even a Sony DVD transport in my own high end system, but it is disappointing to hear what LP can do, a format that is over half a century old, then, one has to wonder why some of today's massive and radical technology does not trickle down, at least a little bit, to us audiophiles that would really appreciate it. By the way, NOISE is NOT a problem with a great LP rig. Those who state that it is have had the unfortunate experience of hearing either bad software, bad hardware, a poorly set up turntable, or all three. If you don't want to get sucked into analog, be glad you have never heard it right. It is truly amazing what the extra quality can do when it is placed at the very beginning of the hi fi chain.

Yes, Albert's points are right on, again. I was one of the participants in that other thread. I was first getting to know Albert then, and many here thought I was "just being emotional", and had no real point to make. I will say this, here:.....................I love vinyl, and feel that the noise issue isn't an issue, unless the majority of LP's in your collection have seen thousands of plays on awful equipment (not by a 'phile), for 40+ years. If that's the case, then I don't blame you for being discouraged...............The reason vinyl has the potential to be better than any CD based system can be described in this way IN MY OPINION: If you have a halfway decent vinyl rig like mine (VPI 19jr, AQ PT-8, Benz Lo4, and Phonomena phono stage, and my linestage will remain a mystery), and you compare as similar to "the same" recording as you can find, on a CD in my CD player (you all know what it is)...what you hear is...more "continuousness" to all aspects of the soundstage, more contrast between the quietest and loudest sounds, more "reality" to the way instruments sound, and much more natural and "juicy" tonality thru the ENTIRE frequency range. You DO hear bass (and ambient bass noises in the recording) which can go all the way down to just above the arm's resonance (if you listen in good headphones, or have a decent subwoofer and good room/system setup). Pitches are much more defined and less artificial than with CD, thru the whole range. AND THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE of all, is that for the very quietest sounds on the recording (hall ambience, etc.), vinyl is detailed, real, rich, effortless....and I DO MEAN EFFORTLESS. Whereas the whole issue with this extreme low level detail, with the 16 bit format, is the reason audiophiles have always craved another "better" digital format, since the very introduction of CD. MY VINYL RIG IS NOT A STATE OF THE ART ONE, but my CD player is much closer to the CD SOTA than the vinyl rig. And yet, the vinyl is better (with LP's that are NOT very worn). Playing the ones that have more wear is still fun, still musical and satisfying, but will not be preferable to the corresponding CD on my player (assuming it exists, often there is no CD that has been issued). BUT THAT'S NOT EXACTLY A RINGING ENDORSEMENT OF CD'S..........All of that said: If I just listen to CD's for a while in MY player, then I can begin to forget about what I am missing with vinyl, and can enjoy them more...and can also listen to more music in the time I have alotted for that evening, since there is almost no "playing ritual" involved (and I DO get into the ritual with vinyl). HOWEVER.....Happiness on this level cannot really be accomplished if you just use a mass market CD or DVD player for CD's, and then turn around a spend $30k on a vinyl rig........IMO. There is just an imbalance there (unless of course you don't own many CD's, then it is the logical choice). AND THAT IS WHY I FEEL THAT TOTAL MUSICAL SATISFACTION, CAN ONLY BE ACHIEVED BY HAVING THE BEST OF BOTH FORMATS, that YOU CAN AFFORD. I also think that most audiophiles are with me on that. Someone should do a scientific poll on it...Stereophile has a vote on this on their website on occasion, and I do believe this group of mine was in the majority, last I checked. I realize that's not a very scientific poll, but it's enough for me.

jeez, i have a decent vinyl rig, but by no means anywhere near the top of the food-chain, at least as far as price goes! ;~) while i *do* get some unwanted noise on some of my discs in less-than-pristine condition, for the most part, it isn't a problem. and, while i *can* set-up a turntable, i don't have all kindsa fancy test equipment to aid me. while i have grown-up w/vinyl, i've listened to enuff cd's, and had enuff folks hear my set-up that are mainly familiar w/only cd's, to know that noise ain't an issue w/properly set-up vinyl. i gotta weigh in w/albert p on this one. my vinyl-cleaning regimen consists mostly of a dish-soapy sponge w/warm water, & a keith monks record-sweeper, which keeps the grooves clean & static-free, by tracking along w/the record - from the other side of the table, of course! ;~) doug

Well, Garfish, your phrase "I was aware of the stylus dragging across the grooves" mirrors my experience precisely. And, yes, even with the so-called audiophile HQ 180gm pressings, cleaned so meticulously I could clearly see the frown on my face. But.........unlike yourself, I am a stubborn SOB who kinda refuses to give up easily. I've thrown wads of cash at the problem, have attempted to educate myself every which way, and still cringe helplessly when reading things like the above posts, where promises of audio and sonic nirvana are offered through "proper" analog rigs. Well, my analog rig is about as "proper" (+3k) as it's going to get. But after 3 tables, 5 cartridges, 2 phono stages etc. the buck(s) stops here. Now I need to figure out if there is something wrong with me or all those vinylphiles out there. If the goal of high end audio is the recreation or approximation of the "original event" it seems fairly obvious that this is impossible to achieve via vinyl. The onslaught of surface noise - forgot the pops and ticks - obviates any benefit of more "natural" sound. What can possibly do a better job at reminding you that you are not in the presence of the real thing than record surface noise? And if that NOISE is sufficiently objectionable, who gives a fig about things like soundstaging and proper imaging? The mood and the moment have already been annihilated. But I've got a lot of vinyl, much of which is not replaceable, or that I will not replace. So.....the beat goes on. Now, if there was just some way I can enjoy the MUSIC - at least as much as I did as a kid listening to a transistor radio - and forget about the EQUIPMENT, gee, now that would really be priceless. By the way, Garfish, where was this place you dumped your vinyl............?

Albert - it is an undiluted pleasure to read your posts as your dedication to the hobby obviously seeks to make the equipment servant to the music. And this is what this pursuit is ultimately about. Not only are your views hewn by years of experience, they are always models of balance and tolerance. And this is another attribute that makes this hobby an uplifting experience. CD's are symptomatic of our "hamburger culture" - they require minimal effort to acquire, use and maintain. However, we have to go to extraordinary lengths to make them listenable - akin "to polishing a turd". Many of us have unwillingly fallen victim to this flawed format (I, myself, readily admit to a CD collection of 4000+), precisely because the market and our hectic lifestyles have dictated this. For many of us, it is more desirable to have flawed sound than none at all.

........forgot to mention all the room acoustic treatments I've done-- spent much time and money doing it too. I do not intend to get involved in a long unresolvable disagreement between the virtues of vinyl and digital-- and I don't think Albert does either. In fact, I'll give up right now and go play my new Cowboy Junkies CD "Waltz Across America", respectfully, and cheers. Craig.

Hi Albert; We were posting at the same time so I missed your well written statement above. I respect your views as much as anyone on this forum, and I have no doubt that your state of the art analog rig sounds better than my "quite good" digital one. As stated above I could not listen past the noise of the modest vinyl rig I tried-- further, I am very happy with my CD based system. Vinyl lovers seem to think they are the only ones committed to working at getting the most music out of their systems as possible, and with this I partly disagree. While maybe less work, I have installed dedicated AC and ground systems, spent 61 days placing speakers within room, built a 200 lb. stereo stand with many audiophile features, addressed vibration control, upgraded power cords (and all wires), and purchased the best quality digital front end that I can afford. I continue to try promising "tweaks" and enjoy doing it. BTW, it took me a month working 1/2 days just to build my stereo stand. My point is that there is much that the digital user can do to improve the musicality of his system too. Finally, I say again, your state of the art analog system undoubtedly "sounds" better than my CD based rig, and I would love to hear your system, but weighing every experience I can, I get a great deal of enjoyment out of the music system that I have (so maybe it's best that I don't hear your system), and for me that's enough. Cheers. Craig.

Hi Blzbub; I appreciate your above post as it agrees 100% with my recent attempt at trying to get back into vinyl. You probably read this whole thread, and know that I had quite a bit of input early in the thread. As with your experience, the main turn-off to me regarding vinyl was simply NOISE-- not the loud ticks and pops, but the continuous "white noise", to static, to crackling. Even with brand new HQ vinyl, I was aware of the stylus dragging along the grooves. But I also agree that good vinyl can sound more natural than CD-- until you get up to a very good digital front end, which I have, and I assume you do too. I felt relieved and relaxed when I went back to the "quietness" of digital. While I respect vinyl junkies and their committment (my best audio friend is a vinyl junkie) to the format, it's not for me for the very reasons you mention, and especially the noise. I also agree about M. Fremer, while he believes what he is doing, he is too zealous and not very tolerant. Never-the-less, I'm glad I "had a go" at re-trying vinyl 'cuz now I know for sure. I don't know what you're going to do with your vinyl collection, but nobody wanted mine, and I ended up giving 300-350 LPs to a charity in hopes that they could make a little off them-- I even felt a little guilty, but they said "thanks". Cheers. Craig

I have avoided entering this fray because of the more than 100 emotional posts at a previous CD/LP posting, which began harmlessly as a similar topic. I am not surprised that there are those of you who have noise problems with LP. The LP format requires extreme care in setting up to get it quiet. Many dealers who sell analog are not experienced enough to get a turntable set up perfectly, even if they had the time to come to your home. LP is never absolutely quiet, although I have lots of LP's that play completely through with as good a signal to noise ratio as a CD. For those of you who have decided that CD is your format, be happy. However, I would like for you to quit defending the CD format as an equal performer in a ultra high end system. If you are going for the ultimate in musical reproduction, it has to be analog. If price is a consideration, then digital is clearly a better value, as you can get pretty good performance for less than what a phono cartridge alone costs! Analog is lots more trouble, much more limited on new program material, and more maintenance on all the associated equipment as well. All I can say is, this should come as no real surprise. I know of nothing in high end audio that is truly superior that is not a large pain in the rear. That includes tubes being more problems than transistors, LP more problem than CD, large and expensive cables more problem than zip cord, dedicated circuits more trouble than the ordinary household outlets, room treatments more ugly and more work than leaving the room alone, and separates more hassle than receivers. I was once convinced that digital "had arrived" and pretty much gave up on LP in the mid 80's, with the promise that digital would be perfect sound forever and completely overtake analog. Since then, I have owned at least twenty combinations of digital players, converters and anti jitter devices, with my efforts leading all the way up until about 1998. I finally gave up on trying to fix the digital format, and continued to play my CD's on mid line equipment, with the accepted the loss in quality. The good news is that I can now enjoy my analog music again, and quit worrying about trying to find a CD player that will compete with it. There are members who post on Audiogon that have chosen to come and listen at my home. One was an AVID CD user and owned a top of the line two box system, valued at well over ten thousand dollars. After a trip to my home and a direct comparison against my turntable (same artist and music, his choice), he sold his digital system and bought a VPI turntable and a phono stage. As for his CD's, yes he kept them. The difference is now he plays them, on a Rotel, instead of continually being disappointed by performance that never delivered what was promised, regardless of the dollar or time invested. What we often argue about here at Audiogon is the defending of the digital format as ENJOYABLE. I have no doubt that many of you have great sound with digital. I am simply saying that if you ever heard analog correctly, in your own system, you would have a hard time ever forgetting it. If you never get used to better, its much easier to be happy where you are.

After about an 8-year COMPLETE hiatus from vinyl, during which I immersed myself in digital, I got back to LP playing about 1 1/2 years ago. I assembled a high end analog rig consisting of VPI & Clearaudio components. If I had to sum up the vinyl experience in one word it would be: NOISE. In an effort to eliminate or mitigate this NOISE, I've upgraded my table, swapped out cartridges, purchased and used myriad cleaners along with employing nearly every popular cleaning procedure. The final result was NOISE. I grew up musically (and otherwise) in the 70s when there was nothing but LPs. And never found the NOISE obtrusive. I got into digital, ultimately, because of the practicality of CDs vs. vinyl and my eventual purchase of a CAL CDP satisfied me musically. The return to vinyl was due, in part, to my 800 or so LPs staring me in my face, but also due to the hullabaloo regarding the wonders of "high-end" analog playback. So I gave it a shot. Folks, if you can't get past the NOISE (and evidently I can't) don't bother. All the money and effort in the world won't make it better. My guess is that vinyl devotees were never "away" from their vinyl for any appreciable amount of time. They are, therefore, so accustomed to the NOISE that they are entirely unaware of its presence. Well, good for them. And vinyl does indeed sound somewhat more natural, with less "brightness". If you can tolerate the NOISE, the required attendant cleaning & hygiene (and the not inconsiderable expense for the necessary cleaning materials) and the leaping from your listening spot every 17 minutes or so, go for it. My guess is most people will prefer to live with a bit of unnaturalness. I still experience a great deal of anxiety when spinning LPs and lots of teeth-gnashing (because of the NOISE), and a great deal of relief when returning to my CAL. For the record, all my analog components match up well and my cartridge is properly set up and adjusted. As for Fremer, it's doubtful that the MAN realizes how much influence his words have on others. Personally I think he is an incedibly irresponsible -place your favorite moniker here-. Like everyone else, I've read his statements where he claims that Analog Rig X at $300 blows away any digital rig. This individual is on a crusade and will clearly state whatever he feels serves his motives most effectively. I will allow for the fact that he actually believes these claims (though I, IMHO, doubt it). But others must realize that it is only one man's very biased opinion. If you've got LPs and want to get back into vinyl, by all means go for it. Just DO NOT expect your low buck analog rig to "blow away" your mega buck digital system. And be fully prepared for the NOISE. Proceed with your vinyl plans. Just proceed with caution.

joe-b, I would also love have a look at your list. I listen to LP's on a Linn LP12/Lingo/Ekos/Klyde set-up, and to CD/DVD on a Muse 8/296. Love them both. For the most part, I prefer to listen to LP's if I have a good, clean pressing of a recording. I have NO issues w/ obtrusive surface noise with MoFi, DCC, Analoque Productions, etc, and most of my Decca, EMI, Phillips original LP's of classical music (bought second hand) are also very clean. On CD, there is just too much good music not out on LP to pass up, and the Muse gear gets close to my analog rig. If you want comparisons, I've done some of Lp vs CD vs DVD on a couple of albums - and it depends. The MoFi Folk Singer LP beat their Gold CD and the Classic 24/96 re-issue hands down IMHO (and in my system), but Hell Freezes Over is better on DVD. Mostly, I don't obsess about it too much. I guess its just a matter of taste, system balance, and good clean vinyl - but what's great is that the state of the art makes the music equally enjoyable on all formats (at least for me) - and that is ultimately why we are into the hobby.

this is to joe_b I would be interested in knowing what albums you are looking to sell. I also live in NJ. jim_gerace@hotmail.com

Robba, I think that is a fair summary and the reason this topic us usually so heated and I'm glad it hasn't gone that way! I really do APPRECIATE BOTH formats. Personally, it boils down to what limitations both formats have vs. the convenience (in all aspects!) that CD has over vinyl. And with the money I've spent so far, I can't afford to "switch gears". Besides, I think in 10 years or less this will be a moot discussion as some other (digital based) format will rule the day. If I had to give someone advice tomorrow, who is considering putting together a high-end system, I would ask them what type of music they like. I think classical, jazz and blues sounds better on vinyl while rock, pop and new age sounds better on CD. All of this is MHO, of course. -Tony

Hmm... so to combine Fpeel and Sedond's responses, perhaps some people have been 'trained' to associate vinyl noise with the playback experience, and are thus better at blocking it out, while other people have had more digital than analog experience and have troubles. Of course that doesn't explain why I can do the vinyl thing. (I bought my first CD player in '88 when I was 12 and have only recently begun to critically listen to vinyl - maybe I'm just lucky).

An experience last night might shed some light into Robba's question on how some sounds are easily blocked out sound, but others are not. We went to a hockey game last night. Very noisy venue, people yelling, clapping and generally being joyfully unruly. All the noises one might expect considering the venue and none of it was bothersome in the least. Except the guy behind us that, as usual, was loudly talking about business, the stock market, remodeling houses and on and on. Very non-hockey stuff in general. Based on comments from others around us his banter was irritating them, too. The relevant point is there are noises that are part of the venue's ambiance. They're expected. Those that don't belong detract from the experience. While inaudible to some, clicks and pops on records are like the guy behind us to other people. They spoil the moment with their distraction.

noise on vinyl must be a generational thing. sure, an album in really poor condition is annoying, but most vinyl noise is not at all irksome to me. (most of my vinyl is in decent shape, too). must be cuz i've been doing that vinyl-thing for over 30 years, and i got a cd player only 5 years ago - and *only* because some new releases i couldn't get in the vinyl format. i *always* check to see if new releases are awailable on vinyl prior to purchase - often, they are - gotta know where to look. doug

Who ya calling fatty ma leetle parrot? Hahaha...

Re: snap crackle pop - it seems to me that when attending any live performance that there has always been some non-musical noise going on. Rock shows are obviously noisy, jazz shows have inevitable chatter and clinking of glassware, and every classical (ballet, opera, concert) performance has had it's share of coughing. How can you guys block this out and not an occasional quiet 'click'? Serious question. I've heard vinyl in brutal shape, so I can understand not wanting to hear that (although it kind of 'enhances' some folk, countrym and blues), but really most new vinyl is in decent condition and compared to a live performance free of noise.

Both formats have their weaknesses. It boils down to what deficiencies bug you more and how much it costs to fix it! A great digital set-up gives you a quiet background, no pops or crackles, and CONVENIENCE. Digital lacks in its "naturalness" (but is getting closer all the time), having varying degrees of glare or hash. Analogue, specifically LP's, give you "music" but you have to train yourself (comes easier to some people) to ingnore or filter out the defects in the vinyl. I have yet to EVER hear an LP that didn't have some defect during playback (some more than others) and I've heard great set-ups. Nothing spoils a song like a pop or a crackle IMHO but it seems not to bother others anywhere near as much as myself. So it's personal preference. I have a digital system mostly because I had a lot more CD's when I got in to all this and the software has guided my system building. I would never begrudge anyone who has not gotten rid of their 100's of records to go digital. Likewise, for those who have vast CD collections. One reason I couldn't wait to get my first CD player was so that I didn't have to get up to hear the second side AND because I didn't want to clean my vinyl, needle, etc. after almost every listening session. Listening to one or two songs before having to get up and do work is not my idea of relaxation. But to each their own so long as they get enjoyment out of it. As far as this analogue being "reality" argument, I don't think it's valid. What we're really talking about is the medium in which something is RECORDED. Yes, digital is 1 and 0's but is converted to analogue so that the listener can HEAR something - like the mechanical energy of our speakers. Analogue, too is a signal that must be "converted", passed and amplified. The secret in both systems is to have the BEST signal you can. ENJOY! Tony

Rockvirgo go burn another fatty.

Hi,here is my experience. I made all kind of comparison between my Forsell turntable with Transfiguration cartridge and Forsell transport+DAC and analog was ways better.

Hahaha...*shakes head* these kids today :-)

Doug; I did consider the mis-match possibility and discussed it with a pretty knowledgeable Audio Advisor Rep. The TT came with the Goldring cartridge ($175.)installed and adjusted, but my vinyl junkie friend also checked it for me. I also got the Musical Fidelity X-LPS phono pre-amp from AA at the same time, as they recommended it highly with the MMF-5 and Goldring. The only control on it was a switch for MM/MC cartridges, which I made sure was set correctly. I can identify with Joe_b above. After this experiment, I decided to get rid of my modest LP collection (300-350). I called around some, and nobody wanted them. A local music store offered me 25 to 75 cents each for the ones he thought could sell, and he told me that they "buy LPs reluctantly and sell them gladly". I said to hell with that and gave the whole works to a local charity-- except for six that I kept for the cover art. I only did this because M. Fremer, of Stereophile,(he's the analog guru isn't he?) confidently stated that the MMF-5 TT would make a vinyl lover out of the most hard core digiphile. And I don't even consider myself anti-vinyl-- never have. But, I certainly do disagree with M.Fremers conclusion re: the MMF-5. P.S. If any audiogon member wants a once played MFSL LP of Bob Seger's "Against The Wind", cover and vinyl are mint, for $20. + about $3. shp., email me (I bought it sealed on ebay for $30.). Enough Already. Cheers. Craig.

Rockvirgo go burn another fatty.

Joe_b please e-mail me your record list. gmele@aol.com I would be very interested. Thanks-Gary

I have been partial towards vinyl ever since I got into this insideous "time consumer" hobby, which I love. I have owned several front ends in both vinyl and cd. Early NAD, then California Audio, followed by Wadia, Sonic Frontiers and a slew of auditioned players. As time lapsed the cd hardware improved immensely, until I found the sonic differences so close, that the convenience of cd outweighed the these minor attributes. Some analog I've been privy to own or get to know are Sota, Oracle, with Sme and Koetsu followed by a long stint of VPI TNT (and it's incarnations), fitted with an Air Tangent/Clearaudio. This set-up served me well, but I never felt the bottom end was comparable to cd. More spacious, at times more involving, but some of the tonal inaccuracies disallowed me to enjoy, driving me towards tweak-hell. So, even with an expensive VPI, I felt hollowed. Now with the Clearaudio/Souther/Accurate I have finally attained a phono front end that betters every cd combo I have heard. I know better cd hardware exists, I just have not experienced the depth, unexaggerated macro presentation while maintaining the minute intricacies. I had gone months and months without a phono player, appreciated my Sony sacd tremendously, but know I find the turntable in constant rotation.

Hey I'm sorry TM12, but my cat Missy won't eat analog cat food no matter how many times I put the picture on her plate. Lighten up, dude :-) Btw, the reason the world was believed to be flat for so long was because the people who thought differently were told they had no business voicing their opinions. Dreaming of Columbus...

My preference is towards vinyl, although good digital these days has its attractions--I can now listen to CDs and LPs in the same listening session, where I had trouble with that for many years. I wonder if some of the problem stems from your old records. When I first purchased a good turntable (an old Well-Tempered, in about 1988), I remember my disappointment when listening to a lot of the albums I enjoyed in my pre-CD days with a cheap Technics turntable, although some of the albums (some Chesky re-releases, Reference Recordings, Harmonia Mundis) sounded infinitely better than CD. Apart from the care taken in the mastering, it turns out that the albums that didn't sound so good were ones I'd gotten through record clubs, which didn't use the greatest vinyl and probably were cut from dubs (who knows what generation) of the master tapes. Plus I hadn't taken the best of care with those albums. This manifested itself in a lot of surface noise and inferior resolution, muddy sound, etc. If you're truly bothered by surface noise, you'd have to spend more than you have done so far to get a turntable which will make you not notice the noise, but even then it won't make up for a cheap or worn out pressing and it may still wind up bothering you. Have you tried any of the recent re-issues on your set-up? If they don't sound better to you than their CD counterparts, then I'm not sure it's worth throwing additional money into hardware, because you seem to have a good analog rig. If they do, then you would be well advised learning about which pressings are best and how to spot them so you can pick them up for cheap at the garage sales (or else invest money in the reissues). I'm not familiar enough with pop and rock records to know which versions are the best or which publications which would help you identify them--there are some books in the classical arena.

hi joe_b. *PLEASE* email me yer record list!!! sedond@ors.od.nih.gov re: your 'table, i bought an oracle, orig version updated to mk-v specs, all except the power-supply, included grace 727 tonearm, box, & shipping from canada to maryland, for $1250. included was the $60 to buy the correct factory box for shipping. hope this helps, doug

hi craig, i have *no* problem w/background noises on my vinyl set-up, and i don't have a super-spendy cartridge either. the ortofon mc25-fl retails at $450, but the needle-doctor sells it (perpetually on sale?) for $225. perhaps your fono-stage was lacking? or, mebbe ewe had too much gain from your fono-stage/preamp combo, for the cartridge used? i have a nice fono-stage, the pentagon ps-3 (retail $1900?), which i got as a demo close-out for $600. i had it set to highest gain for the lo-output (0.2mv) of my m/c w/my cary preamp, and all was well w/the world. no noise problems. when i hooked up the melos music director preamp, there was all sortsa noise on the fono - i dint understand it, and at 1st, i thought it was a poor preamp. but, a bit of experimenting led to the realization that the melos had so much gain, that, even w/the low-output mc cartridge i'm using, i could set the fono stage on its lowest setting, & still have plenty of gain. (melos sez this preamp will drive efficient speakers directly w/no amps - i *believe* 'em!) no more background noise, only sweet music. so, craig, i tink there was a mismatch in your system between the preamp/fono/cartridge. regards, doug

I am going to sell my Oracle Turntable and all of my records. The table is an original Delphi and has been upgraded to a Mark II. In addition it has a custom made power supply and a custom made armboard. The arm is Syrinx PU-2. It sounds good, much better than the Rega Planar 3 I replaced with it, but does not sound better than my Parasound CD2000/AADTIPR0/Bel Canto Dac. I have not listed it for sale on any websites because I do not want to ship it and I do not even know how much it is worth. I live in Bergen County,NJ. I do have the original box and manual. I have all of my records (around 300) listed in an excel file that I can e-mail. I have around 70 "audiophile" recordings which I am looking to sell. I have e-mailed the list to a few used record shops in this area and only one or two are even interested. This is probably a good time to buy used records, but forget about selling them.