audiolabyrinth, The cartridge to which you refer could be that Ortofon mentioned by Chakster (I think) or it could also be an Acutex LPM series. Pickering made some cartridges that resemble the nose of the Concorde, as well. I suppose many other companies did, too. For a while, that was a popular shape. Can you post a photo?
Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?
I have just acquired a 32 year old JVC/Victor TT-101 DD turntable after having its lesser brother, the TT-81 for the last year.
TT-101
This is one of the great DD designs made at a time when the giant Japanese electronics companies like Technics, Denon, JVC/Victor and Pioneer could pour millions of dollars into 'flagship' models to 'enhance' their lower range models which often sold in the millions.
Because of their complexity however.......if they malfunction.....parts are 'unobtanium'....and they often cannot be repaired.
TT-101
This is one of the great DD designs made at a time when the giant Japanese electronics companies like Technics, Denon, JVC/Victor and Pioneer could pour millions of dollars into 'flagship' models to 'enhance' their lower range models which often sold in the millions.
Because of their complexity however.......if they malfunction.....parts are 'unobtanium'....and they often cannot be repaired.
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There are a couple of photos of the modded PD444 on my system page: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/702#&gid=1&pid=2 I replaced the stock feet with machined brass towers and Stillpoints Ultra 5s-- with a fifth U5 under the motor housing. My 444 came to me with one foot missing-- in all honesty I never heard it with the stock elastomer footers. I do love this table, and put it at the same level as my L07D. I also substituted a 4mm TT Weights copper platter mat for the stock rubber mat on the 444. That was an improvement. |
@dgarretson I’m not so sure about that. I removed the stock switch box from under my PD444 and substituted a thick, dense wenge wood subplinth that projects forward as a subplinth for a third tonearm mounted to a Micro Seiki brass tonearm board. The big surprise is that SQ was improved for the other two arms mounted to the stock tracks. The subplinth must be acting as a sink for vibration. I know some people replaced stock feets, but for me LUX 444 works fine in stock condition, i like it better than my SP10mk2. I wouldn’t add 3rd tonearm as i have two LUX PD444, so already 4 tonearms :) However, i’d love to replace side pannels usign some nice wood. Do you have a picture of your modified 444 ? |
@audiolabyrinth not sure which video are you talking about, but i hope you already checked Ortofon Concorde or Tonar Banana. Those cartridges are nothing special, i would say they are very bad cartridges in terms of sound quality. It’s a nonsence to judge the quality of the cartridge by watching the video. If you want Ortofon look for M20FL Super. Which ADC you’re talking about? They are many ADC carts and they are way different from each other, made by different designers etc. For example the ADC TRX made by Nakatsuka-San of ZYX and this model is way different from conventional ADCs. You’re talking about JICO SAS replacements? I owned several ADC cartridges (including the ADC Astrion) and was not impressed at all. You’d better look for Grace F-9F (Shibata/Discrete-4) or Stanton 881 (Stereohedron) and higher. As for the Technics look for rare SP-20 model, it’s cheaper than SP-10mk2. |
Gentlemen, A few question's here, I have seen video's of this funny looking cart on the technics sl-1600mk2, it looks like a concord plane, very long and angles down on the end, ok, everyone laugh again, what's this cartridge called?, can all turntable's use this cartridge?, it seems to have great treble detail to the sound on these videos, also, what is all of your opinion's for a cartridge and needle for the 1600mk2? I have some sort of collector adc cartridge that I was considering buying the best contact Japanese needle for, quite expensive, however, I was told by a online shop that by doing so, this would make this adc the flagship, since that's all adc ever did was improve the needle's going up the cart food chain, adc seems to be doing another industry now, no longer making cartridge's. |
Hi rwwear, Thankyou for your post, I am very pleased to see all the incredible kenwood turntable's here on this thread, thankyou to all of you gentleman, I feel like a high school kid all over again, this is quite exciting to learn so much here, I will definitely be pursuing some kenwood deck's over time, would all of you gentleman agree that the Lo7D is the best preference out of all the kenwood deck's listed here on this thread? |
audiolabyrinth, Kenwood also made this beauty. http://www.thevintageknob.org/kenwood-KP-1100.html http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWkenwood/G2/P0/A10/E/0-50/S0/C17-09833-38016-00/ |
Ken, The DN308 is a quite substantial machine and I'd state its performance is well above anything I've ever listened to and owned including the SP10mk3. It weighs in at 140 lbs. The sound is very robust and speed is super accurate and stable. In this current batch there are 8 units and they have all been sold. It grew from initially 2 units to 8, this includes the one I refurbished in 2006 but kept in its original console format. I showed the plans to the customer I sold this to and he immediately wanted his redone too. The top and bottom plates are made from T6061 tool plate 1" thick, on the bottom plate all the electronics are mounted, power inlet is in the bottom too. The top and bottom plates are bolted together with 5 ea 8mm x 140MM stainless steel cap screws, this sandwiches the hardwood frame which is 1.125" in thickness. The 3 footers are custom made Steve Blinderman large Isopeds. The electronics are refurbished with new caps and everything is re-calibrated to exacting specs. To keep the turntable "in touch" with its origin I've maintained the original Stop and Play buttons as well as the speed selector dial. In addition theres a machined pocket on the rear top where the original serial number tag is bolted in place. Ive added a Tachometer, the Phoenix engineering Road runner, why have such an amazingly accurate machine if you can not show it off :-) I may make more of these, however the DN308 is extremely rare they do pop up on occasion but with only about 1650 units made they are hard to find. Retail pricing on the GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DN308 Professional would be in the $30K range. However, the DP80 was made in much larger quantities and I've designed a Plinth for it veery similar to the DN308 with a top plate from 1" thick T6061 tool plate. The bottom is HDF inset in the Hardwood frame, it'll feature Steve Blinderman's small isopeds for footers. The electronics are again completely refurbished and re-calibrated to exacting specs. I've eliminated the variable speed feature, which Ive found no one use anyway. A roadrunner Tachometer is built into the top plate as well. Retail pricing on the GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DN80 Professional is projected to be $9995. Good Listening Peter |
@audiolabyrinth "Seems like I’m collecting vintage turntable’s, I just obtained the pioneer pl-550 direct drive table, I already have the technics sl-1600mk2, can anyone tell me much about the pioneer?, at the moment, the technics seems to be in a whole league of it’s own with performance compared to the pioneer." I have the Pioneer PL-550 and I’m very happy with it. I’d be happy to answer questions...check out my system - I have it refinished in a beautiful burr magnolia veneer! |
@ Chakster beautilfullll your front-end wow wow wowwwwwwww This is my SP 10 II restored from a few months but two more SP 10 II and a Jvc TT 101 are waiting for my job for this year. Unfortunately I do not have the time to upload photos but I can only insert the link where I published my long restoration work. http://forum.videohifi.com/discussion/375892/technics-sp-10-mk2-inizia-il-restauro-refurbished-e-fin... |
@chakster I'm not so sure about that. I removed the stock switch box from under my PD444 and substituted a thick, dense wenge wood subplinth that projects forward as a subplinth for a third tonearm mounted to a Micro Seiki brass tonearm board. The big surprise is that SQ was improved for the other two arms mounted to the stock tracks. The subplinth must be acting as a sink for vibration. |
Running my LUX PD444 with Lustre 801 and Sony PUA-7. Practically this superheavy deck with various arm-bases is close to ideal, imo. No need to think about plinth and whatever tonearm (or two) can be mounted. |
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6431 The first of the GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DN308 Professional is done check it out on the virtual systems page. Good Listening Peter |
Hi lewm and pryso, I'm new to the vintage turntable's, speaking of kenwood, I don't believe I would sell them short, I currently have a kenwood kr 9600 reciever in mint condition that embarrasses my friend's Rega osiris integrated amplifier that retail's for $10,000.00 in my opinion, in every imaginable audiophile way, I'm looking for the best possible vintage table for the kr 9600, mmm, this is excellent news kenwood made some exceptional table's, to have you gentleman laugh, I've never listened to another vintage table better than my technics sl-1600mk2. |
audiolabyrinth, The Kenwood KD-500 was more popular than the 550, at least around here. It was sold minus an arm, allowing the owner to choose their own. SME, Grace, and Infinity were popular choices at the time. http://liquidaudio.com.au/kenwood-kd-500-kd-550-direct-drive-turntable/ In addition their 600 and 700 series were decent players as well. As lewm mentioned, their L07D was/is one of the top tables so don't sell Kenwood short. |
"I didn't know kenwood made a good turntable". The KD550 is a fine one, on par with the DP60L, perhaps. I didn't mention the L07D, which is up there in the pantheon of the really great vintage direct-drives, like the SP10 Mk3, Pioneer Exclusive P3, etc, but those are way up in cost. You can find a very nice L07D for between $3K and $4K. The good news is that it is sold as a unit with a very advanced plinth, even by today's standards, and a very good tonearm, designed for and specially adapted to the L07D. Kenwood made a whole series of components in the L07 series (amplifiers, preamplifier, tuner) that were very high end (and expensive) in their day, comparable to the Pioneer Exclusive line of gear. |
Audiolabyrinth, Unless your turntables have a known history of having been serviced recently, I suggest you may want to replace all the electrolytic capacitors in both, and then have a competent technician calibrate the drive systems. That's the only way you can be sure you are getting the most out of them, although if they operate without noticeable issues, you're probably OK. One thing I've observed is that the market values of mid-level vintage DD's like your two is not much below what you would have to pay for the really top quality ones. For example, you can find Denon DP80s or DP75s for less than a thousand dollars. Another good one is the Kenwood KD550, which seems to be easy to find for around $500. You might also luck out and find a Victor TT101 for under $1000; that would be a great bargain, but they are rare outside of Japan. Yamaha GT2000 is another one to look for. Between one and two thousand $, you can hope to find a Technics SP10 Mk2. I'd actually rank the DP80, TT101, and GT2000 slightly ahead of the SP10 Mk2, certainly its equal. Well, you said you were "collecting"... |
Shane, I would take the dust cover and put it into storage. You don't want a dust cover anywhere in or on or over your turntable when it's in use. I thought every vinylphile agreed with that principle. Of course, you could always place it over the plinth when the Mk3 is not in use. Otherwise, those heavy lucite covers are bad karma, in my opinion. |
There is only one turntable in Technics catalog released in unique
wrinkle black finish
(special surface treatment of the aluminum die-casting) is Technics SP-20 from 1976. In 1982 their top of the line EPA-100mk2 tonearm was released also in black finish (boron armtube). The EPC-100c mk4 cartridge is also black. If anyone would like to combine all together i'm selling my spare Technics SP-20 here. It's interesting to see the same policy of product placement "in black" from another manufacturers like Fidelity-Research. FR top of the line cartridges are black (f and fz), second versions of the FR tonearms are also black (fx), same with Technics. But silver or champagne color of FR-7 or Technics EPC-100c mk3 are more attractive. I think the EPA-100 is more attractive looking than mk2. But the wrinkle black finish of the Technics SP-20 turntable looks amazing, sad that no other models were finished like that. I think it's beautiful. |
ohh yes yes ..the P100 C mk4 is a great cartridge I know this very well, even your stylus or stylus and cantilever VDH, but you possessed a large cartridges park as many fans have this would be very frustrating not being able to play with everything. For the dust cover I think there are screws in the hinges to adjust the inclination, try to see if I'm right. |
@best-groove I bought the SL1000Mk3 so I could put a Thales Simplicity II and Lyra Atlas on it from my TW table and this should raise the playback level a few notches. This will come in time. the tonearm was a freebie that I am enjoying, as previously my EPC-P100C-MK4 was residing in an adaptor. The EPC-P100C-MK4 is as good as my Dynavector XV-1s so it is a great cartridge. There is very little lacking with the sound I am getting so far. There is one thing that sucks about this table - the turntable dust cover does not open high enough and acoustic transparent it is not, unlike the Exclusive P3 glass dust cover. The cover will stay off most of the time now. regards |
@jp very interesting the brochure, on the internet I had never found anything about it. @downunder the arm collects the best EPA 100 and 500 but I believe it is limited to a narrow range of cartridges. The TP4 cartridges have never reached the great quality and musicality of the traditional MM and MC cartridges and it is for this reason that it is limiting in choice, that you have supplied is a very good cartridge but your turntable deserves the best for the cartridges. |
This is the product launch brochure for the SL-1000 MK3D: http://fidelisanalog.com/2016/10/08/technics-new-products-of-10-1982-2/ And scans of the 3x5 glossies that came with it. Click and click again for the high res version: http://fidelisanalog.com/2016/10/08/technics-sl-1000mk3d/ |
What I find to be especially interesting about that tonearm (EPA100Mk2, according to others) is its base structure. From the photo, it seems to be one continuous piece that broadens out to cover the entire arm board. Is that the case, or are we looking at a separate escutcheon into which the base of the tonearm sits? If it's all one piece, that would provide a nice "sink" for energy generated in the arm wand. Reminds me a bit of the modern Durand Telos (big money), but I would bet that if it were possible to do a head to head, the Technics would be superior. |
Hi Guys. thanks. The tonearm was a freebie after I asked for it to be part of the deal. Only really to be able to use the EPC-P100C-MK4 cartridge as originally designed. Glad I did get it now, but not being able to change any parameter of a cartridge is a strange feeling. I am even thinking of getting a Ortofon 320 or OMP 30/40 but not sure why as it would not sound as good as the EPC but may be a bit of fun thou. Any idea which one would sound better? Anyway in a month or so I will look at setting up my Thales tonearm on the table. The Exclusive P10 will now have to be sold as I have no shelf space for it. cheers |
Dear @downunder : No best tonearm for a TP4 cartridge. Still with out the EPA 100MK2 characteristics: 100% Boron build material and and dynamic damping choosed by the owner. All in all really good tonearm and maybe the cartridge could performs better in this than in the 100MK2 due that does not needs the universal adapter. Good TT/tonearm you bougth, congratulations. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
I'd say the A505 is a near second, but it may be a wash; one has better bearings, the other an adjustable counterweight. http://fidelisanalog.com/img_0707/ |
Technics SL-1000MK3D has arrived. With the EPC-P100C-MK4 cartridge, the combo is sounding superb. a few photo's if interested. https://www.flickr.com/photos/13641350@N08/albums/72157682466955655 |
Dear @lewm : The 100M comes with its own tonearm that was designed in specific for the DP-100, so you can't mount it in the Final and I agree with halcro that those two cartridges that dover name it are not good enough ( I owned both and for good reasons I don't have it any more. ). Not even we know the electronics and speakers and that gentleman MUSIC/sound priorities. That he was a TAS reviewer means almost that but nothing more and certainly not a guarantee about. I think that as good as it's the P3a the DP 100M is a must to have too. I had the opportunity to listen it when was marketed in USA through the Laredo Denon distributor that was a very entushiast audiophile. Unfortunatelly was mto high of price for me but always like me as a very top contender against anything down there. The Denon motor is truly special as no other because they took the same Denon cutting lathe motor they manufactured/marketed in those times. @halcro , IMHO it does not matters what you can do in a TT-101 always will be an inferior unit to the stock DP-100. Thinking in different way can be only a misunderstood of what we are talking about. Maybe what some of you don't like on this Denon is that it's not much you can do to " play " with up-dates. Btw, this is what tuchan posted about his unit: """ what I can say is the 100M with its surprisingly good arm provides an absolutely stunning sound. I will build an extra arm pod ..... """ Btw, the real " deal " for all those old times about the Final TT was that through its power supply it develops its own electrical needs and is not disturbed by the normal imperfections of a home electrical source. That's all. In the other side, it's really a hard task to say which DD TTs between the P3a, LO70D or Denonn DP100 is really better. We have to have the same tonearm/cartridge in all of them to compare it and maybe what we will found out is that only performs a little different but not better one of the other. Who really knows? What's clear for me is that we can't go wrong with either unit and no a vintage or today BD unit can't compete with. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not DISTORTIONS, R. |
Shane-rather than buying the Denon....I'd be more tempted to buy his TT-101 as a backup to mine. Knowing how thoroughly and beautifully re-built his Victor is...I suspect it may be the best TT-101 in existence...?🤗 You write this because you have concrete evidence to believe is the best, or are mere assumptions? |
Thekong, You wrote, ..."if that is true, and the DP100M is in the same league as the SP10MK3, P3a etc.," That's one of the biggest "ifs" I have seen on this thread. First of all, Dover does not say what tonearm and cartridge were used to make the comparison of the DP100M to the Final. Second, with all due respect to Dover, he is passionately in love with his Final (which is fine with me), but he does tend to try to prove its wonderfulness by verbal argument (which is hearsay evidence at best, IMO). And third, I certainly don't think any of the aforementioned direct drive turntables is perfect, but, as you said too, these particular criticisms would not seem to apply to well set-up, properly restored and calibrated examples of the breed, no matter what. In fact, it's almost a list of why I prefer DD turntables I have kept in my system to belt-drive turntables I have tried and rejected. On the other hand, Dover is the only person I know who has ever had a Final tt in his system; we cannot really know how a Final would stack up. In sum, we don't have enough data to agree or disagree with Dover. I personally do not at all care for the Denon DA307 tonearm, as supplied with the DP80 turntable. I don't know what tonearm is supplied on the DP100M, but if it is close cousin to the DA307, all bets are off. Lack of focus and compressed dynamic range are, IMO, possible descriptions of the DA307. |
The DP100 direct drive had a lack of focus, shallow soundstage, mild attack, overly delicate transients and compressed dynamic range compared to the Final. Hi Dover, if that is true, and the DP100M is in the same league as the SP10MK3, P3a etc., then the Final must be one very special turntable! I have never auditioned the DP100M, but have done so with the SP10MK3 and P3a, “lack of focus, shallow soundstage, mild attack, overly delicate transients and compressed dynamic range” are probably the last things I would say about these turntables, at least when auditioned on their own and not comparing to the Final. Would love to audition the Final one day! |
Hey Henry it should be here on Wednesday, so should be able to play over Easter. Its the full SL-1000MK3D. This is the model with the P mount tonearm. I will first use it with the EPC-P100C-MK4 Cartridge. Later I am going to use my Thales tonearm with it. I have a NOS Technics arm board, however I have a another arm board coming in from the USA so I practice on that one first setting up the Thales. so direct stk technics vs P3 will be difficult. cheers |
