Vhiner... My comments are about fraudulent advertising, not just about fuses. If the market were more than tiny the Feds would be after the charlitans. |
Touché. Were the rest of the remarks here so clever. I'm done. |
It seems to me that you've been the guy pounding away the most. (That's at the keyboard).
Experience is a great teacher, but rational thought will take you much farther. |
Good Lord.
Experience is the best teacher. There is no room left for actual experience in this thread. It is now the typical measurements circle jerk that has as much to do with musical enjoyment as jacking off has to do with sex. Enjoy. |
If someone doesn't buy one of these upscale fuses, do they not have the right to comment about them? I would think that any person established in the audiophile community would have a legitimate right to comment, particularly if they see something that they think doesn't look right. |
Eldartford,
Don't buy it then. No one here makes or sells fuses. No one here needs your protection and no one asked for it. |
If someone thinks that a particular configuration of wire (or fuse) makes audio sound better, that's fine by me, even if I disagree. However, if that person makes (or buys) such wire, brands it, and sells it at a ridiculous price that is not OK by me. |
There are scientific laws of physics governing room treatments. |
"How'd it be if someone went to your systems page and kept posting comments about how "bogus" your homemade room treatments were and demanding you prove they work? (I happen to think they're cool, inspiring and impressive, btw)."
He or she would probably like it & would tell you how to measure the effects if you wished. Effective room acoustic treatments leave a measurable footprint and many of us take various db measurements across our listening room when establishing acoustic treatment & subwoofer setup up & etc.
There are some pretty out there room acoustics things, telephone playback of magic signals for example, that do not leave a measurable footprint.
It could be argued I guess that one shouldn't refrain from spending money on the out there room acoustics things because they haven't tried them ?
"Why does it bother you that some of us perhaps have more sensitive hearing (by way of nature or training) in certain specific ways than others do? "
I think we all except the above to be a fact. I don't know that it bothers anyone but maybe it does. The thing is that the thresholds of human hearing are well established and are orders of magnitude below the thresholds of signal detection by other means. If you tell your neighbor that you can hear a mouse pass wind during a thunderstorm, he is going to give you a funny look. |
No, Zmanastronomy, all this is over people who devote their time ridiculing others who are simply sharing the joys of their hobby. How'd it be if someone went to your systems page and kept posting comments about how "bogus" your homemade room treatments were and demanding you prove they work? (I happen to think they're cool, inspiring and impressive, btw). It's a free country but it's a shame when a few use that freedom as an excuse to ruin it for the many. I don't go to a "which amplifier has the best specs" thread and throw rocks at everyone because I don't happen to care much about specs. Heckling may seem trivial, until you are the one being heckled.
Your posts about your experiences on this topic have been welcome, appropriate and instructive...not because I think so (our views about the fuse happen to actually conflict) but because they have been in keeping with the stated purpose of the thread. |
Wow!!! All this over the sound of a fuse? |
There was once chef who asked other chefs whether they'd ever tried a very expensive brand of sea salt in a special recipe. One chef said, "It's amazing. You should try it." Another chef said, "I tried it and it's better but not really worth the extra money." Another chef replied, "It tastes the same as regular salt to me."
Finally, a very angry group of chefs demanded that people should stop endorsing this expensive salt because everyone knows that all salt is the same, "Laboratories have proven there's no difference," they cried. Some even claimed fraud was being committed. When asked if they'd ever tried the salt, they replied, "Of course not! They'd take away our cooking licenses if we were to do something so absurd!" One even said, "I wouldn't put arsenic in my food. Why would I put expensive salt in it?" Another angry chef said, "You can't rely on your own taste buds. They lie." After a pause, one of the complaining chef's changed the subject and began talking about the many different types of water he served in his restaurant.
I don't know about you, but I prefer to eat where the chefs rely on their senses and eat their own food. I use the same rationale when considering advice. |
Frogman,
I certainly share your view, but these guys aren't listening to anyone but themselves and likely never will. Notice that one of them even has the audacity to talk about his subjective preference in cables! Of course, cables are different! Sheesh. Talk about calling the kettle black. Their motto is, "My measurements are better than your measurements." Or maybe it's "You have to prove your opinions are valid, but my B.S. is the gospel." No one asked for proof of anything here, but they will smother every voice that wants to simply talk about what they hear. FEAR THE EARS!!!!
This is the same kind of silliness that's going on over at the "What's the Best Speaker in the World..Objectively" thread. Wanker central. |
"Why isn't this debate about science" - Metro4
Simple, because it is not science that is at play. It is science in the service of music. Music is art. Art is human expression. If you think that the sophistication of electronic science matches the complexity of musical sounds (art), you don't understand art.
"The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making the claim, not the other way around" -Metro4
Really? In my universe (and that of many here) it is you (and others here) that are making the claim; the claim that there is no difference. YOU prove it; if proof must be provided. Prove that there is no difference. Why does it bother you that some of us trust our ears? Why does it bother you that some of us perhaps have more sensitive hearing (by way of nature or training) in certain specific ways than others do? Why do you think that we have learned all that there is to know about the science of sound as it relates to sound and it's reproduction? |
Experience is the best teacher. There is no room left for actual experience in this thread. It is now the typical measurements circle jerk that has as much to do with musical enjoyment as jacking off has to do with sex. Enjoy. |
"Isn't education sometimes a bitch for those who won't listen. "
Seems like there is a contradiction in there somewhere? :)
Eldartford - Interesting test approach, thanks. To be honest I'm lazy and completely undisciplined on testing ic's & speaker cable. I just keep the ones that seem to sound the best (and don't cost that much). One of the vendors, maybe the name was something like alpha core, used to sell cables that were built like giant capacitors, two flat thin conductors with a very thin slice of insulation in between, would have been interesting to run your test on them as I think they might have been the most extreme attenuators in the marketplace. Surprisingly to me they (speaker cables were tested not ic's) seemed to screech the upper frequencies instead of squash them. |
Yeah, thanks for edjamacatin' us ignurnts real good in the ways of faith learnin's! |
Way to hold your own Vance. Isn't education sometimes a bitch for those who won't listen. |
Jeff_jones... Traditional "measurements" usually report specific characteristics of the signal. The measured parameter can remain unchanged while other parameters change, and affect the sound. The significant parameter for audio is "how it sounds". and the best measurement instrument is the human ear. There is a way to make the ear measurement in a completely objective manner.
In the case of an interconnect...
1. Input a common signal to both channels of your system. You can use a real music signal.
2. Adjust gains and, if necessary, frequency response so that the signal measured across the hot terminals of the amps is zero ( a null). You can make this measurement using a meter or scope. or by ear using a headset.
3. Insert an extra interconnect in one channel.
4. Repeat the null measurement of step 2.
If the null obtained in step 4 is the same as step 2 the interconnect has no effect. |
"How can interconnects make a difference?"
Nonoise - For what is worth, the measurements and theory crowd (me included) would need to agree that interconnects can indeed make a measurable difference. In the non-audio world as well, you need to be aware of cable issues that can cause unacceptable attenuation when you want precise transmission of sensitive signals. |
Since Monty Python seems to have calmed things down a bit, let's try this: you guys think you've stimbled upon the room designated for "an argument." You're mistaken. That's the third door down the hall. |
"Vhiner... Just as silly."
Not to criticise, but that seems a little harsh.
Getting back Monty Python:
Magic fuses & wonder ears = silly party
Plummeting to death = very silly party
In my opinion:). |
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09-23-11: Vhiner
"Good point Eldartford. Trying a fuse is just like risking your life on a tall building."
It is if you don't unplug it ;) |
Good point Eldartford. Trying a fuse is just like risking your life on a tall building. |
|
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
-with apologies to Monty Python |
There are some things that you don't need to try.
I am selling anti-gravity boots. Put them on and you can jump off a tall building without falling. If you don't believe they work buy them and try them out. If they don't work I offer full refund. |
Just more of the same ol' classic evasion tactics regarding your unwillingness to support your touted claims, and it most certainly does equate to fotune teller antics in similar ways, or any other extrasensory claims humans having been making since speaking man, yet consistently fail when tested. You just can't differentiate betwen that either. And spare us the whole thread hijacking nonsense. It's not your thread or forum to regulate what suits your beliefs only. I've already addressed that point.
I swear, it's like I'm conversing with 5 year old. Your rational is predictable and sterotypical, without merit. |
Thank God more people listen with their ears than with their test equipment. Even though the "fortune teller/magic/rip off" argument is in NO way applicable to what is going on here, it's helpful to consider that most secure people don't waste our time going on "fortune telling" websites trying to convince people who gather there that they are deluded. Yet some posters here are like all moral crusaders. They feel it is their moral duty rid the world of sin and protect us from ourselves. We leave them alone, but they can't leave us alone. We don't need their help and no one asked for it.
Again, this thread has been hijacked and it now belongs to those who claim to know THE TRUTH. Nothing I or anyone else says will keep them from taking over the conversation. |
Actually for me the better way to determine rather than test equipment is to swap or not swap fuses and see if people can tell the difference. If test equipment doesn't show a change people will say it's not sensitive enough, etc. I would agree. Of course people will say they need time (hours or days), which may be valid unless they just said they heard a difference.
I was at a dealer's open house a while ago. He played some music and everyone liked it, oooh and aaaah. Then he showed us a CD mat that he put on top of the CD he just played. Much better...to everyone except me. I wasn't familiar with the system or the track he was playing, and I suspect others weren't either. I would have LOVED to do a blind test then. I would have been very impressed if others could tell the difference. Either way I would have learned a lot about my hearing, tweak's effectiveness, how people act in that environment, etc. |
...And your "achieved desired result" only illustrates that you or anyone can make outlandish claims and not have to back them up. The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on persons making the claims, NOT the other way around. Your unwillingness to prove YOUR claims merely lumps you in with the "empty credibility" bunch, which you clearly seem to be at ease with. But I'm sure you're okay with fortune tellers ripping people off as well.
As far as you "objecting to this thread's original purpose being hijacked", the OP's entire context was being addressed by several based on his general skepticism and leariness to believe that fuses can make a substantial difference like the manufacturers claim. What "rational" person would exclude a comprehensive range of input, especially regarding pseudo science? I'd hope the OP would require factual data over empty, unproven claims. Since no one seems to be backing up their audible claims, nor by the mfrs, he owes it to himself to gather as much "unbiased" info as possible.
Have fun Saturday. You should ask someone with test equipment to come over. That would have more bearing to the OP and others. Every audible claim i've read, regarding fuses, IS measureable! |
Every thing in "electronics" is controlled by these formulas. Electrons "obey" these laws in this universe. If your box was not imported from Krypton, it obeys these laws; but maybe the fuse is from "Krypton".
A beer, fuse listening party sounds like a very good idea. After enough beers those fuses might sound like "fuses from Krypton".
AMPS= WATTS÷VOLTS I = P ÷ E A = W ÷ V
WATTS= VOLTS x AMPS P = E x I W = V x A
VOLTS= WATTS ÷ AMPS E = P ÷ I V = W ÷ A
I hope nobody takes any of this stuff serious.
|
A buddy of mine is coming over on Saturday for a listening session. There will be beer and lots of great music. At some point, we'll take out the tin stock fuse of my amp and replace it with a hifi tuning fuse. He's never heard one and isn't longing for one. We'll listen and discuss what we do and don't hear. If the fuse makes me happy, I'll keep it. If it doesn't, I'll exchange it for some MoFi recordings I've had my eye on. I love this hobby and no one can ruin it for me. Why would they want to try? Draw your own conclusions. |
Heh, heh, heh! My response was no rebuttal, but it achieved the desired result. I hear what I hear. You can't prove I don't and i don't feel the need to prove that i do . If it works, it works. This is a fact that drives some service technicians crazy.
I simply object to this thread's original purpose being hijacked. The request was for opinions from those who have actually tried high end fuses. Several here have admitted to never doing so and are proud they never will. That's called crashing a party. It speaks for itself. Some people have to express their opinions even when no one asked for them. They wouldn't last ten minutes on a loosely moderated thread because all of this B.S. is off topic. They'd be asked to start their own thread. Sadly, an engineering degree doesn't always enhance one's social skills. |
So, your actual rebuttal is comparing your inept cable supervisor diagnostic story to what? Are you kidding me?
Pick any industry and I can promise you, in many situations, Joe Schmo may have more knowledge about a particual technology than a so-called supervisor. What do you know about being a service technician anyway. I've been doing it for 37 years, in a wide spectrum of electronics. Mistakes get made, or new equipment comes out, and we're not given adequate time or training to learn everything, or for the special test equipment to diagnose said equipment. In that 37 years, and I'm sure fellow tech readers can attest to, there's good ones, and not so good, or just lazy types showing up for a paycheck.
What does this have to do with anyone proving what they claim to hear? Which month's magazine article did RH or JA address this fuse issue will measureable results? These are payed magazine reviewers, correct? And why isn't this debate about science? By that, I can only assume your limited understanding is more along the lines of magic since you lack any plauseable technical explanation? Merely claiming that you hear something, is not evidence that something is audible for various psychological, sociological, and well-understood unreliability of human hearing. And THAT has been discussed to no end except "audiophiles" unwillingness to accept that fact. Back up YOUR claims my friend! |
P.S. In addition to being an award-winning editor and journalist, Robert Harley is a respected engineer who has addressed this tired,old debate countless times. John Atkinson provides countless measurements of audiophile products. It doesn't matter because this debate is clearly not about science.
Trust your own ears and don't believe the slander that every hard-working audio enthusiast who invents a way to improve audio reproduction is trying to rip you off or that people who joyfully share their discoveries are deluded. |
I rest my case. These guys may have gone to the same engineering school as the cable supervisor who kept claiming my internet problems "can't be your modem. I've measured it twice and my instruments don't lie." Two weeks of labor, complete wire replacement and countless service calls later, guess what the lowly "cable user" insisted they do? Yup. We replaced the modem and suddenly we're getting 30 megabytes per second. Problem fixed. The supervisor's response? "I think it's a conincidence...or my instruments were malfunctioning that day." True story. Engineers who are promoted to to be designers will tell you that there's a difference between theory and practice. |
How much engineering does a fuse take? |
Have you ever noticed how the "this______absolutely makes a difference!" or "this________makes a huge difference" crowd never provides substantiated, or independant 3rd party verification, or scientific before-and-after data for any of their improvement gains?
"It really is unbelievably boring and pointless" is my sentiments exactly! It's no different than anyone claiming they can read minds, predict the future, move objects telepathically, etc, etc... If you claim you can hear the difference with fuses, or that a specific fuse direction is audible, back it up with data! It's ahould be an easy thing to measure for those with conventional lab equipment, yet neither of the exotic fuse companies provide a single explanation to the best of my knowledge, nor data to back up their claims. Show me a non-audio related scientific, engineering or accredited university research process that would accept known-unreliable sensory perception to out weigh extensive reserch and measurements. As Jeff stated, they'd pull their degrees and be subjected to endless industry ridicule. |
"never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? "
If we did I think they'd revoke our engineering degrees:).
Happy listening. |
Have you ever noticed how the "this can't work" crowd never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? It really is unbelievably boring and pointless. It's like hanging out at a car collector convention just to nag everybody about how "one car is just as good as another, quit wasting your money." It's sad. YAWN. |
How can a power cord make a difference?
It does.
How can interconnects make a difference?
They do.
I don't mean to be snide but this have been discussed to death already. Some of us hear big differences that we can't put into words, but they are there. Maybe its just a matter of being better built: that justification seems to apply to all things audio. Or it could be that there is something else at play here. I've replaced fuses on circuit boards that gave bigger results than the one I replaced on the slide out on the IEC jack but there were still improvements.
I simply can't explain why I hear a difference but I do. |
The fuse will make no difference to the audio; however, it will make a difference to your billfold.
A fuse is a safety device that lies in series in a circuit between an electrical source and its associated load(s). When the current, or flow of electricity, exceeds its designed threshold, the fuse opens.
How can one 2 amp fuse differ from another, assuming they are both designed for your circuit? |
"I've never found hypothetical scenarios very interesting or productive"
Filtering out noise on the input side of stereo equipment is very basic stuff. My guess is that some of your own equipment has ac line noise immunity/voltage tolerance specifications either in the manuals in or available from the manufacturer. It is what it is and there is no need to accept my word for this, a quick bit of research will allow anyone to confirm.
Personally, I think you need to look at the science on tweak threads like this as well as the listening test reports. If you only consider the latter then the only answer you'll ever come up with is "spend the money", placebo effects and the occasional shill tend to always push the testimonials toward the plus side. |
Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, exchanging views is what this site is for. I think it's possible to do that without characterizing another's views as "inducing craziness" but that horse is dead now.
I've never found hypothetical scenarios very interesting or productive. A few others have shared that they heard little or no difference in their systems after installing new fuses while others report major improvements. That's what this particular thread is for.
So far, you have made a hypothetical argument based upon your understanding of engineering principles. I, for one, am far more interested in sticking to the OP's original request, which was to hear from "people who have TRIED this." If you have, share the details of your experience. If not, I don't think theoretical musings about what "should work" and "should not work" to be very helpful. JMTC. |
To say that fuses make no difference is to say that your system is not "high resolution". No audiophile will admit to that! |
Vhiner - I'm an audiophile and I did not intend any ridicule or remarks of a personal nature.
I actually can't find anything that could be construed as personal in my previous note. I do think the 'high resolution of the power supply' comments are out there and use of that type of logic to justify believing in tweaks or not believing in tweaks does drive me crazy. That is directed at the concept and not a particular person or persons however.
As regards "attacking the beliefs you hold", please attack away if so desired. I think that sharing differing views/experience/knowledge is an appropriate use of an audiophile website. |
Jeff,
If you're not an audiophile, why do you hang out here? This is an audiophile website. If we "drive you crazy", you might consider going to a website more pleasing to you. Or, perhaps you enjoy ridiculing people. I hope not. There are so few places left for hobbyists to enjoy what they do. You'll notice that I am not attacking the beliefs you hold, merely the spirit and manner in which you have chosen to express them here. |
"The more resolving a system , the more likely a difference will be heard . "
This is one of the things that drives me crazy about audiophiles. Good design means resolving on the output side (where resolving is a good thing) and filtered on the power supply side (where filtering is a good thing).
A poorly designed system will have high resolution in regard to ac line effects & compromised resolution in regard to desired output. A well designed system will be the opposite. This is true whether you are talking stereo's or tv's or any other electrical device whose purpose is to transmit a signal. It is basic electronics 101 stuff. Good equipment has improved immunity to incoming power issues or tweaks. |
