Upgrading Fuses

Have you ever noticed how the "this______absolutely makes a difference!" or "this________makes a huge difference" crowd never provides substantiated, or independant 3rd party verification, or scientific before-and-after data for any of their improvement gains?

"It really is unbelievably boring and pointless" is my sentiments exactly! It's no different than anyone claiming they can read minds, predict the future, move objects telepathically, etc, etc... If you claim you can hear the difference with fuses, or that a specific fuse direction is audible, back it up with data! It's ahould be an easy thing to measure for those with conventional lab equipment, yet neither of the exotic fuse companies provide a single explanation to the best of my knowledge, nor data to back up their claims. Show me a non-audio related scientific, engineering or accredited university research process that would accept known-unreliable sensory perception to out weigh extensive reserch and measurements. As Jeff stated, they'd pull their degrees and be subjected to endless industry ridicule.

So, your actual rebuttal is comparing your inept cable supervisor diagnostic story to what? Are you kidding me?

Pick any industry and I can promise you, in many situations, Joe Schmo may have more knowledge about a particual technology than a so-called supervisor. What do you know about being a service technician anyway. I've been doing it for 37 years, in a wide spectrum of electronics. Mistakes get made, or new equipment comes out, and we're not given adequate time or training to learn everything, or for the special test equipment to diagnose said equipment. In that 37 years, and I'm sure fellow tech readers can attest to, there's good ones, and not so good, or just lazy types showing up for a paycheck.

What does this have to do with anyone proving what they claim to hear? Which month's magazine article did RH or JA address this fuse issue will measureable results? These are payed magazine reviewers, correct? And why isn't this debate about science? By that, I can only assume your limited understanding is more along the lines of magic since you lack any plauseable technical explanation? Merely claiming that you hear something, is not evidence that something is audible for various psychological, sociological, and well-understood unreliability of human hearing. And THAT has been discussed to no end except "audiophiles" unwillingness to accept that fact. Back up YOUR claims my friend!

...And your "achieved desired result" only illustrates that you or anyone can make outlandish claims and not have to back them up. The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on persons making the claims, NOT the other way around. Your unwillingness to prove YOUR claims merely lumps you in with the "empty credibility" bunch, which you clearly seem to be at ease with. But I'm sure you're okay with fortune tellers ripping people off as well.

As far as you "objecting to this thread's original purpose being hijacked", the OP's entire context was being addressed by several based on his general skepticism and leariness to believe that fuses can make a substantial difference like the manufacturers claim. What "rational" person would exclude a comprehensive range of input, especially regarding pseudo science? I'd hope the OP would require factual data over empty, unproven claims. Since no one seems to be backing up their audible claims, nor by the mfrs, he owes it to himself to gather as much "unbiased" info as possible.

Have fun Saturday. You should ask someone with test equipment to come over. That would have more bearing to the OP and others. Every audible claim i've read, regarding fuses, IS measureable!

Just more of the same ol' classic evasion tactics regarding your unwillingness to support your touted claims, and it most certainly does equate to fotune teller antics in similar ways, or any other extrasensory claims humans having been making since speaking man, yet consistently fail when tested. You just can't differentiate betwen that either. And spare us the whole thread hijacking nonsense. It's not your thread or forum to regulate what suits your beliefs only. I've already addressed that point.

I swear, it's like I'm conversing with 5 year old. Your rational is predictable and sterotypical, without merit.

Yeah, thanks for edjamacatin' us ignurnts real good in the ways of faith learnin's!

[Vhiner] "It doesn't matter because this debate is clearly not about science."

[Metro04] "Why isn't this debate about science?"

[Frogman] "Simple, because it is not science that is at play. It is science in the service of music. Music is art. Art is human expression. If you think that the sophistication of electronic science matches the complexity of musical sounds (art), you don't understand art."

[metro04] Pertaining to the topic of THIS debate, regarding boutique fuses, it most certainly is, and it doesn't specifically have to apply to "music" reproduction. If a person merely wishes to listen to broadcasted "news" or any other non “music” material, it still requires electronic amplification and speakers, of which both took science and engineering to produce!
___________________________________________________________

[Vhiner] “I hear what I hear. You can't prove I don't and i don't feel the need to prove that i do . If it works, it works. This is a fact that drives some service technicians crazy.”

[metro04] “The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making the claim, not the other way around." And “It's no different than anyone claiming they can read minds, predict the future, move objects telepathically, etc, etc...”

[Frogman] “Really? In my universe (and that of many here) it is you (and others here) that are making the claim; the claim that there is no difference. YOU prove it; if proof must be provided. Prove that there is no difference.

[metro04] I’m sorry, but “your universe (and that of many here)”, do NOT reflect real world quantified verification processes for medical, science, engineering, scholastic research methodology, or the likes. Almost every design, development, or breakthrough requires a variety and battery of methodical, multi-verification processes. No mere individual can profess an unsubstantiated claim without having to prove their findings, hence the burden of proof obligation.

Can you show me any examples of science or engineering-based methodical multi-verification methods taking place within any of the fancy fuse claims being made by exclusive auditory auditioning, especially when factoring in well-researched and documented human hearing deficiencies?

According to your thinking, anyone can profess outlandish claims about ANYTHING and not be held accountable. I’m afraid human behavior, in general, based on history, will not agree with you aside from modern-day “audiophiles”. I’m still afraid the onus defaults to the individuals making claims.

[Frogman]”Why does it bother you that some of us trust our ears? Why does it bother you that some of us perhaps have more sensitive hearing (by way of nature or training) in certain specific ways than others do? Why do you think that we have learned all that there is to know about the science of sound as it relates to sound and it's reproduction?”

[metro04] I stopped getting into these pointless debates for quite awhile now, though I still periodically read through these forums and several others online. Either camp seldom converts the other, no matter which controversial topic. Like others, I find those threads entertaining, but still raise an eyebrow or shake my head when posters tout overwhelming or huge improvements from cables, boutique fuses, or pseudo-science products based on listening alone - rarely deploying any additional verification process, and especially never with any test equipment to support their potentially psychological or sociological influenced “opinions”. For some reason, egos play a significant role in this hobby, and outlandish claims get touted endlessly as gospel, yet use every possible excuse to avoid or provide verification of their elitist claims, or sight endless testing method flaws. Since most lack adequate electronics and engineering background to understand the well-established fundamentals and physics, are highly susceptible to embellished marketing and placebo influences. All they have is their hearing, but conveniently ignor documented human hearing deficiencies. When questioned by some of us about what we consider to be questionable levels of performance gains, often resort to the tired old “if you can’t hear the difference…”, or “your system must not be resolving enough”, or deploy a variety of other condescending elitist BS, yet offer not a shred of evidence to prove they heard, or can hear anything.

That’s where “Vhiner” struck a nerve, and that’s what bothers me. The rest is in the writing and seems his endless egotist big-man-on-campus posting count now dominates the thread, besides his endless off topic diversion nonsense.

09-26-11: Sgr
“Krell amps use no fuses. I believe so they don't impact the sound quality.”

...Orrr, because circuit breakers offer particular advantages over fuses in high-current applications, as with most commercial welding equipment, since you made reference to the KSA-250’s abilty, of which I happen to own one driving Scintillas.

09-26-11: Vhiner
“I'll just wait for a knowledgable Krell owner with experience to post on this question. I know someone who owns four of them and he says they have no fuses. Until then I'm sure there'll be a week-long theoretical debate about it.”

…Though true for Krell’s amps, is blatantly untrue for their preamps, of which incorporate “standard” fuses for which Krell managed to achieve their sonic goals without boutique fuses.

09-26-11: Sebrof
“Of course Krell uses fuses. Go to their website and download the manuals like I did and read about the fuse specs like I did.”

09-26-11: Vhiner
“I stand corrected. Sorry. I rarely post heresay. It won't happen again.”

…Classic!

09-26-11: Sgr
“I own 2 Krell KSA 250s and a pair of MDA 500s and have just double checked the owners manuals and according to the manual Krell has developed circuit topologies without fuses because they impact the sound quality.”

…And just where in Krell’s KSA-250 manual does it say “without fuses because they impact the sound quality”? To reiterate, Krell uses them in their preamps, yet opted to use circuit breakers in their high-current amps for strategic reasons.

“One might conclude that while the use of fuses is required to protect our expensive audio equipment, it is not in the best interest of the components sonic potential, thus the need for higher quality fuses to counter the effects of the fuses. In fact many audiophiles have wired around the fuses or installed solid pieces of copper in place of the fuses for their systems sonic benefit. Of course this is risky, you could blow the hell out or your equipment! So I'll be safe and have better sound by buying audiophile fuses, thus a better quality fuse that both protects the circuitry and p”

…Pure unsubstantiated opinion! Won’t you please educate us on exactly what the construction differences are aside from gold plated ends and printed directional arrows?

09-26-11: Vhiner
“I love reading posts by people with first-hand experience. Thanks Sgr.”

…What “first-hand experience”?

09-27-11: Vhiner
“Sebrof, No redemption for me...I'm here to learn and I think your post generated some much needed insight into how at least one equipment designer views fuses, which I did not know about, namely that fuses may degrade sound. I was similarly skeptical when I first heard about amps with no fuses.”

…Which designer’s fuse views regarding “namely that fuses may degrade sound”?


09-27-11: Jeff_jones
" They do describe operation of their installed circuit breaker used instead of an incoming power fuse on the KSA 250 though. The interesting thing in the manual to me was the warning not to fiddle with a different power supply cable, almost as if they were using power cable impedance as part of the protection scheme? One could discuss whether fuses & breakers sound different, but I wouldn't recommend it:)”

…Jeff, my take was that Krell’s statement pertained to buyers potentially swapping out power cords without acknowledging current ratings for the amp's current demands. The later part of you paragraph is what some seem to be overlooking, and “probably” will never become a niche market for obvious reasons to several of us, though I would never bet against it.

[yawn]

09-27-11: Vhiner
"Metro04,You, sir, are a genius."

...As your endless postings of empty dribble clearly illustrates, you, sir, are NOT!

09-28-11: Vhiner
“I''ve never claimed to be a genius, but I know when i'm in the presence of one, metro04. Even if I'm far beneath your level, i hope you won't abandon us and stop despensing advice! So here goes: I'm in a bit of a panic. I can't find any independent, vetted research studies to support Conrad-Johnson's claim that the teflon capacitors they use affect the sound in their equipment. Per Your guidelines Meteo04, this must mean I've been ripped off. I was hoping you could post the academic studies you used for buying all of your equipment. This would help all of us make much better purchasing choices.”

>>>Vhiner, I realize that you had to wear a special helmet during childhood, but continuing to wear it is restricting essential blood flow to your gray matter. It’s becoming quite evident that you have a fetish for seeing and re-reading your own delusional material in print. I can’t imagine how popular you must be on facebook or twitter.

Anyways, regarding your panic attack; I would bet you a handsome wad of your Monopoly money that highly respected Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support their design, engineering, and testing result … just like Pass, Krell, Levinson, etc, etc, and is something anyone with capable test equipment could verify. That pretty much goes for any equipment with quoted/written specifications. With that said, just where is all that data for aftermarket tweaks, cables, and pseudo-science products?! Well? Yeah, exactly!!! Next!

09-28-11: Vhiner
“The Gospel according to Metro04:The Gospel according to Metro04:”

“It's very important that, from this point on, everyone should follow Mr. Metro's rules and regulations. If you fail to do so, you are clearly either superstitious, mentally challenged, deluded or part of a a criminal fraud. Whatever experience you have is inadmissible unless accompanied by certified letters from academic editorial boards because scientific journals never err.”

>>>Uhhh, excuse me Mr. alcohol-syndrome baby, but your idiotic babblings are not my rules and regulations, but established practices around the world in every sector of which I’ve already stated examples! If you can’t keep up, take notes!!! And where exactly in my postings do I allude to: “you are clearly either superstitious, mentally challenged, deluded or part of a criminal fraud.”?

>>>Yeah, thought not, though you do seem to have a Politian’s knack for stretching, embellishing, and sensationalizing facts!

“Mr. Metro has further established, once and for all, that any reviews or opinions expressed by the representatives of Stereophile, Paul McGowan, Positive Feedback, Stereo Times and many more publications easily accessible on line regarding high end fuses all reflect the thoughts of people who are either in the pockets of advertisers, deluded, con artists, or mentally challenged.”

>>> And again with stretching, embellishing, and sensationalizing facts! The conversation went as follows below: Note my exact wording of questions asked, and it is WELL understood that many equipment reviews are positively biased if magazines and reviewer wish to continue advertising for companies they review for. Either Vhiner is ignorant to this fact, or refuses to acknowledge the reality. I have yet to locate a fuse review with measureable results I enquired about. If you can post a link here, I’d be happy to read it!

09-22-11: Vhiner
“P.S. In addition to being an award-winning editor and journalist, Robert Harley is a respected engineer who has addressed this tired,old debate countless times. John Atkinson provides countless measurements of audiophile products."

09-22-11: Metro04
Which month's magazine article did RH or JA address this fuse issue will measureable results? These are payed magazine reviewers, correct?”

Don't you have any other friends to play with? Try your best to comprehend what I'm writing this time. That way you can hopefully do a better job with accuracy in your interpretations of my postings.

09-28-11: Vhiner
"I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to bet money on an unsubstantiated opinion that Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support all of its design decisions. Please post the supporting document!"

>>> What "unsubstantiated opinion"?!! CJ, like *just* about all major audio equipment manufacturers, employ engineers that design and thoroughly test their circuits which may incorporate whatever topology and quality components to achieve their design goals! The proof is in their measured test results, data, etc. and verifiable by anyone (buyer) with appropriate test equipment! If CJ is willing to share their measurements with you, hence your verification, thus NOT an "opinion"! Understand the difference?

Vhiner: "Now, back to my main question: could you please post the academic studies you consult before you buy your equipment. I'm eager for the bedtime reading."

>>> Every piece of my audio equipment has documented specifications from the manufacturer, all of which are verifiable via test equipment measurements, thus holding the manufacturer liable should results not match based on their testing criteria. Same goes for most electronics in general besides audio.

Now, I'll ask you again! Where is all the documented test results or written specifications from the manufacturer's of your fancy fuses? Gee, why is it that they don't offer any? What about the ever-growing list of exotic cable manufacturers? ...Printed specifications for performance attributes other than wire gage and plug specifications? Hmmm, yeah!

All of my previous accusations stand corrected, regarding Vhiner's blatant twisted misinterpretations of my, and others, posted comments. It's become obvious, at this juncture, that it's his inept reading skills that are at fault. I defer you to the contents of my previous posting's last paragraph to contradict yet another of Vhiner's full cranial jelletization episodes. I trust that a second attempt to re-read its content will expose his repeating deficiencies. And, without a doubt, believes everything he reads as gospel regarding audio.

Again, if you can't keep up, take notes!

Vhiner: As always, within your last two postings in particular, continue to perpetuate your simplistic reductionist interpretation of the entire factual picture.

10-08-11: Vhiner
"...you might actually discover that not all matters can be answered by measurements or double-blind tests (which have long been abandoned by audio designers as useless).

>>> Factual or not, equivalent/applicable testing methods are universally utilized throughout the WORLD's various scientific/engineering fields. You know, real-world meat and potato contributions to what you've become accustomed to in modern life. Not some niche, sales-driven, motivated market pandering to self-absorbed egotists. HiFi might be YOUR limited frontier of electronics, but I'm here to tell you there's a whole world out there that dwarfs this hobbies’ exploitation of early engineering achievements before "HiFi" was even trending.

10-08-11: Vhiner
"For others, I would, indeed, recommend you read Mr. Aczel's diatribe. It puts him squarely in the conspiracy theory camp occupied by people who have NOTHING to do with invention, innovation or the furthering of this great hobby."

>>> This "great hobby", as you refer to, has grown to perpetuate equipment $$$ales by whatever means necessary, including praying on human insecurities, doubt, and ego - just like all product sales! Your industry-supported magazine “reviewer gods” merely exists to perpetuate sales of their employer's magazines and sustain advertising revenue. And just what exactly are THEY directly contributing to "invention and innovation"?

10-08-11: Vhiner
"I lived in Germany for several years and I can tell you that neither the EU nor the very controlling and quality-contro crazy German government would allow HiFi Tuning to sell, let alone export something used in electronics that was either dangerous or not what it was claimed to be."

>>> Meeting safety regulations is one thing, and as long as they perform to said standards, meet regulatory obligation. Any "alluded" performance gain claims are most certainly marketable, even in Germany, as with any boutique power cables made in the EU, though probably mandate CE certification, unlike...

Vhiner:
"The document you have provided is evidence of this. Of course, there's no way to prove to skeptics that this document was not produced by a mad scientist employed by a religious cult. ;-)"

>>> Oh brother! If I had a nickel for every audio/non-audio manufacturer-generated embellished/bloated
"marketing comparison", which illuminated their product tiering over a "specific" or selected few competitors, I could better support my Starbucks' chemical dependency. They, like most audio reviews, should be considered with an open mind. I'm not saying the Tuning Fuse data is false or embellished, but I, like most engineering fundamentalist, would have a warmer fuzzy with independent testing having no motivational biasing - just like other testing agencies for all types of industry.

Awwwe, Lacee, and you were so entertaining right up until the last third of your posting. :(

"Ah, but "the ears can't be trusted!" or some such drivel I am sure will spring forth from the deniers, and then they'll try to disprove what you have just heard with YOUR own ears(not theirs)."

>>> Really, "drivel" and “nonsensical rhetoric”? Apparently, only the self-proclaimed golden-eared audiophile eludes what is WELL KNOWN and DOCUMENTED in the medical world! Yet if tested by ANY means, yields no better results than a guessing percentage. Maybe you can provide a single documented event where ANY participant correctly picked the better “anything” 80% of the time? None I've ever read, though folks here say the testing process is at fault, or has been rendered useless, yet similar or applicable tests are routinely performed world-wide throughout the medical, science, and engineering fields. I’m sure they’re all wrong in comparison to this niche audio hobby. :-)

09-20-11: Vhiner
"Jeff, If you're not an audiophile, why do you hang out here? This is an audiophile website."

09-22-11: Vhiner
"Have you ever noticed how the "this can't work" crowd never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? It really is unbelievably boring and pointless."

It's only after these two early Vhiner postings that I took an offensive position against his remarks. I responded with factual considerations, yet all he's done, and continues to do, down to his latest posting, is avoid providing ANY proof that HE heard or can hear differences regarding boutique fuses since he has the testicular fortitude to take such an elitist stance over others points of views with his dominating "big man on campus" endless/provoking postings?. Instead, continues to post endless off topic distractions, diversionary antics, and adolescent manipulation of posted quotings, yet has the audacity to expect responses to his delusional provocations for further avoidance. It's all there in black and white, yet he has the gall to call me cowardly? I've been telling him, essentially, to quote his grandpa, to "Put up or shut up!" all along. The perpetuated bickering is the result of responding to his diversionary prevocational attacks and ramblings! He refuses to address that the onus of proof lies with the person(s) making the claims, as I have sighted many times, and how it is done in almost every field of study. Again, all this can be followed in my previous postings, as with all my responses, yet are continually dodged by Vhiner.

This is classic evasive behavior, on several levels, and textbook phsycology-101. Who's the coward?

10-09-11: Vhiner
"Metro04,You demanded measurements that explained Hifi Tuning's claims. It's been posted here. Why do you ignore the data and requests for your credentials?"

>>> And yet, AGAIN, you can only resort to manufacturing BS to compensate for lacked intelligence! Just where have I ignored HFTF's data? I don’t see a single reference in any of my postings alluding to your typically deluded incitements – EVER! It’s the same ol’ pattern each time you respond while conveniently ignoring provided examples of real-world scientific/engineering practices. Are you completely inept at interpreting written statements at face value, thus resorting to continual postings of demented, conjured- up nonsense to suit you prevocational accusations? And AGAIN, where is the proof I’ve requested from you to support YOUR claims of hearing fuse improvements? Just more of your typical modus operandi to elude exposure?

Oh, and anytime you want to balls up and compare who’s more technically qualified, just let me know! I’m sure you’ll have a heart-warming story to share about how you successfully replaced your grandmother’s toaster plug without burning down the house, or the light bulb in your sister’s Easy Bake Oven. When you can design, build, and properly test audio, RF, and digital circuits from scratch (as minimum examples), or diagnose and repair just about any item of electronics, then I’ll have a trace of respect for your opinions. Lastly, when you can prove, without a doubt, that YOU can hear improved performance with your fuses, then I will apologize to HFTF for your alleged accusations of my slandering.

Regarding Jeff's other thread, or postings within any forum topic, so what? I'm proud of anyone with a questioning attitude regarding the audio world's equivalence to the sheer numbers of endless eye-witness flying saucer, Loch Ness monster, or Bigfoot sightings. His, and many others who post their thoughts, are periodically ridiculed by this predominantly established, self-fueled “religion”. He and others have every right to his or her opinions as the next person. This site is for everyone interested in various levels of audio, and primarily for buying/selling used gear. Are their opinions really any different than the endless claims of “unverified” product improvement gains spewed in these postings every day?

I have nothing more to say to Vhiner that hasn't already been said multiple times already, especially with regards to his predictable, irrational responses. It’s all yours, big guy!

Sebrof: Again, the onus of proof lies with the person claiming to have extraordinary human abilities. If you “claim” that you can read minds, move objects telepathically, hover, see through walls, or any other abnormal levels of sensory abilities, then be prepared to have to prove it to the civilized world. That’s pretty much a world-wide stance regarding human feats of this nature. If you opt not to be subjected to testing, if not for scientific reasons alone, then don't expect anyone to take you seriously. I realize it's a tough reality.

Humans have been making all kinds of extraordinary claims and witnessings since man’s beginning, yet never seem to overwhelmingly pass verification methods beyond guessing percentages, or simply can't/won't produce factual evidence. You can wrangle any defensive angles you want, but outside the sanctuary of your audiophile world, I’m afraid you’ll have to back up your claims. :-)

Jeff, thanks for sparing me all the typing to basically reiterate our mutual opinions, though you presented it more eloquently than I could, or would’ve.

I’m afraid I really don’t have anything more to submit to this debate that hasn’t been expressed many times over by now, or in previous controversial topics heavily debated over the years where moderators ended up pulling the plug.

These debates continue year after year, but the reality is, neither “hardened” camp really ever sways or converts, but that’s okay, too, just like so many other things in life.

On that note, my friend, I’ll leave you to it.

Sebrof, Lacee... Pleasure!

10-19-11: Milpai
Well, how conveniently do the non-believers ignore genuine requests.

If Jeff has yet to answer your particular question, maybe you could send him a PM instead of attempting to incite others, because the exact same question has and will be posed to the “believers”.

Good day.