I'll just wait for a knowledgable Krell owner with experience to post on this question. I know someone who owns four of them and he says they have no fuses. Until then I'm sure there'll be a week-long theoretical debate about it. |
I stand corrected. Sorry. I rarely post heresay. It won't happen again. |
I just replaced the fuses in my Perfect Wave DAC and PW transport with Hifi Tuning Supremes, which were created in cooperation with the famous Mundorf company, whose parts are used in some of the best audiophile gear in the world. Each of the four fuses cost $55, so the total upgrade set me back $220. I had a 100 percent money back guarantee and my dealer agreed to cover return shipping if I wasn't happy. No risk, nothing at stake.
I have replaced entire components that did not yield the kind of results I'm hearing from these fuses. I've been an audiophile for 20 years and this is the cheapest and most effective equipment upgrade I've ever made. High frequencies are smoother, yet there's no loss of detail. Bass is more melodic and there is a "liveness" to instruments that is truly startling. One warning: they take about 80-100 hours of playback before they are at their best. Take them out and put the old fuses back in. You won't be able to put the Hifi fuses back in quickly enough.
These fuses are a no brainer. I've yet to talk to a professional "tweaker" or "modifier" who disagrees. most audio designers will tell you, anything that affects electricity is part of an audio component's signal path. The folks at Conrad-Johnson are famous for saying that "all parts have a sound." But in the end, forget theory and listen for yourself. That's all that matters. I'm always amazed at people who scoff at something that they've never actually listened to themselves. With something this affordable and given that all dealers have a return policy, there's really no excuse for not learning the truth first hand. |
I agree that system resolution is definitely at play when it comes to system changes of any kind. I own Thiel CS3.7's (highly resolving) and use a ton of Shunyata power conditioning. Sometimes I can hear things I wish I couldn't. ;-0 |
Experience is the best teacher. There is no room left for actual experience in this thread. It is now the typical measurements circle jerk that has as much to do with musical enjoyment as jacking off has to do with sex. Enjoy. |
I can only attest to the use of Hifi Tuning Supreme fuses (not lesser iterations) sound in my DAC and transport. I will be installing one in my Classe' Delta 2200 amplifier over the weekend and others will be present to assess. If it fails to impress me, I have a paid return box and it will go back to Berlin.
I have little doubt that some designers of equipment have so dialed in their creations that changing fuses may fail to render an improvement or even harm the sound. Hifi tuning fuses can be found standard in some Lamm equipment and I'm sure they were selected from among many for a particular reason. System synergy could also be at work. Just as a 6922 tube is preferred by one person in one system but not in another system, it doesn't mean the 6922 doesn't work magic in some applications. FWIW.
BTW, spending money on music is always a good idea. |
Jeff,
If you're not an audiophile, why do you hang out here? This is an audiophile website. If we "drive you crazy", you might consider going to a website more pleasing to you. Or, perhaps you enjoy ridiculing people. I hope not. There are so few places left for hobbyists to enjoy what they do. You'll notice that I am not attacking the beliefs you hold, merely the spirit and manner in which you have chosen to express them here. |
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Good point Eldartford. Trying a fuse is just like risking your life on a tall building. |
Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, exchanging views is what this site is for. I think it's possible to do that without characterizing another's views as "inducing craziness" but that horse is dead now.
I've never found hypothetical scenarios very interesting or productive. A few others have shared that they heard little or no difference in their systems after installing new fuses while others report major improvements. That's what this particular thread is for.
So far, you have made a hypothetical argument based upon your understanding of engineering principles. I, for one, am far more interested in sticking to the OP's original request, which was to hear from "people who have TRIED this." If you have, share the details of your experience. If not, I don't think theoretical musings about what "should work" and "should not work" to be very helpful. JMTC. |
Have you ever noticed how the "this can't work" crowd never talk about actually trying the products they denigrate? It really is unbelievably boring and pointless. It's like hanging out at a car collector convention just to nag everybody about how "one car is just as good as another, quit wasting your money." It's sad. YAWN. |
I rest my case. These guys may have gone to the same engineering school as the cable supervisor who kept claiming my internet problems "can't be your modem. I've measured it twice and my instruments don't lie." Two weeks of labor, complete wire replacement and countless service calls later, guess what the lowly "cable user" insisted they do? Yup. We replaced the modem and suddenly we're getting 30 megabytes per second. Problem fixed. The supervisor's response? "I think it's a conincidence...or my instruments were malfunctioning that day." True story. Engineers who are promoted to to be designers will tell you that there's a difference between theory and practice. |
P.S. In addition to being an award-winning editor and journalist, Robert Harley is a respected engineer who has addressed this tired,old debate countless times. John Atkinson provides countless measurements of audiophile products. It doesn't matter because this debate is clearly not about science.
Trust your own ears and don't believe the slander that every hard-working audio enthusiast who invents a way to improve audio reproduction is trying to rip you off or that people who joyfully share their discoveries are deluded. |
Heh, heh, heh! My response was no rebuttal, but it achieved the desired result. I hear what I hear. You can't prove I don't and i don't feel the need to prove that i do . If it works, it works. This is a fact that drives some service technicians crazy.
I simply object to this thread's original purpose being hijacked. The request was for opinions from those who have actually tried high end fuses. Several here have admitted to never doing so and are proud they never will. That's called crashing a party. It speaks for itself. Some people have to express their opinions even when no one asked for them. They wouldn't last ten minutes on a loosely moderated thread because all of this B.S. is off topic. They'd be asked to start their own thread. Sadly, an engineering degree doesn't always enhance one's social skills. |
A buddy of mine is coming over on Saturday for a listening session. There will be beer and lots of great music. At some point, we'll take out the tin stock fuse of my amp and replace it with a hifi tuning fuse. He's never heard one and isn't longing for one. We'll listen and discuss what we do and don't hear. If the fuse makes me happy, I'll keep it. If it doesn't, I'll exchange it for some MoFi recordings I've had my eye on. I love this hobby and no one can ruin it for me. Why would they want to try? Draw your own conclusions. |
Thank God more people listen with their ears than with their test equipment. Even though the "fortune teller/magic/rip off" argument is in NO way applicable to what is going on here, it's helpful to consider that most secure people don't waste our time going on "fortune telling" websites trying to convince people who gather there that they are deluded. Yet some posters here are like all moral crusaders. They feel it is their moral duty rid the world of sin and protect us from ourselves. We leave them alone, but they can't leave us alone. We don't need their help and no one asked for it.
Again, this thread has been hijacked and it now belongs to those who claim to know THE TRUTH. Nothing I or anyone else says will keep them from taking over the conversation. |
Since Monty Python seems to have calmed things down a bit, let's try this: you guys think you've stimbled upon the room designated for "an argument." You're mistaken. That's the third door down the hall. |
Frogman,
I certainly share your view, but these guys aren't listening to anyone but themselves and likely never will. Notice that one of them even has the audacity to talk about his subjective preference in cables! Of course, cables are different! Sheesh. Talk about calling the kettle black. Their motto is, "My measurements are better than your measurements." Or maybe it's "You have to prove your opinions are valid, but my B.S. is the gospel." No one asked for proof of anything here, but they will smother every voice that wants to simply talk about what they hear. FEAR THE EARS!!!!
This is the same kind of silliness that's going on over at the "What's the Best Speaker in the World..Objectively" thread. Wanker central. |
There was once chef who asked other chefs whether they'd ever tried a very expensive brand of sea salt in a special recipe. One chef said, "It's amazing. You should try it." Another chef said, "I tried it and it's better but not really worth the extra money." Another chef replied, "It tastes the same as regular salt to me."
Finally, a very angry group of chefs demanded that people should stop endorsing this expensive salt because everyone knows that all salt is the same, "Laboratories have proven there's no difference," they cried. Some even claimed fraud was being committed. When asked if they'd ever tried the salt, they replied, "Of course not! They'd take away our cooking licenses if we were to do something so absurd!" One even said, "I wouldn't put arsenic in my food. Why would I put expensive salt in it?" Another angry chef said, "You can't rely on your own taste buds. They lie." After a pause, one of the complaining chef's changed the subject and began talking about the many different types of water he served in his restaurant.
I don't know about you, but I prefer to eat where the chefs rely on their senses and eat their own food. I use the same rationale when considering advice. |
In spite of the four pages of controversy, a consensus does emerge over time. Because of posts from folks like Glenn and Lacee, people are having more fun and enjoying more music. Pretty cool when a measly $50 fuse can make so many people happy. |
No, Zmanastronomy, all this is over people who devote their time ridiculing others who are simply sharing the joys of their hobby. How'd it be if someone went to your systems page and kept posting comments about how "bogus" your homemade room treatments were and demanding you prove they work? (I happen to think they're cool, inspiring and impressive, btw). It's a free country but it's a shame when a few use that freedom as an excuse to ruin it for the many. I don't go to a "which amplifier has the best specs" thread and throw rocks at everyone because I don't happen to care much about specs. Heckling may seem trivial, until you are the one being heckled.
Your posts about your experiences on this topic have been welcome, appropriate and instructive...not because I think so (our views about the fuse happen to actually conflict) but because they have been in keeping with the stated purpose of the thread. |
Eldartford,
Don't buy it then. No one here makes or sells fuses. No one here needs your protection and no one asked for it. |
Good Lord.
Experience is the best teacher. There is no room left for actual experience in this thread. It is now the typical measurements circle jerk that has as much to do with musical enjoyment as jacking off has to do with sex. Enjoy. |
Touché. Were the rest of the remarks here so clever. I'm done. |
Jtein,
Not all amps have fuses...Krell for example. I would not risk voiding a warranty for any reason. You should contact the manufacturer about this. It's critical that you replace fuses with the proper specifications required by the manufacturer to avoid damaging your equipment. If it's a large 10 amp slow blow then that is exactly what you need to use.
PS Audio has authorized the HiFi Tuning fuse upgrade for their gear and the company's CEO has blogged about the sonic benefits. It's a major reason why I tried the fuses....that and other user feedback. Hope this helps. |
I love reading posts by people with first-hand experience. Thanks Sgr. |
Sebrof,
No redemption for me...I'm here to learn and I think your post generated some much needed insight into how at least one equipment designer views fuses, which I did not know about, namely that fuses may degrade sound. I was similarly skeptical when I first heard about amps with no fuses. |
Metro04,
You, sir, are a genius. |
I hope this means it's time for your nap, Metro04. That last post must've been exhausting. |
Metro04'
"Payed" (sic) magazine reviewers like Robert Harley and John Atkinson have written extensively about how measurement methods are routinely being developed that enable us to explain things that people hear which could not have been measured or explained in the past.
The best example pertains to digital audio. In the early days engineers were outraged by people who claimed that all digital playback devices were not the same. Some engineers pointed to their spes and said that CD's provided "perfect sound", Zeros and ones are zeros and ones, they argued. The measurements show that what goes in is exactly what goes out.
Then jitter measurements were developed and, lo and behold, it was discovered that the lowly listeners had been right all along. Digits are not just digits and all cd players are not equal in terms of sound reproduction quality.
People like Harley and Atkinson contend that it is not measurements that are the problem; it is people who worship those measurements.
But of course these two gentlemen are not geniuses like Metro04. |
The Gospel according to Metro04:
{metro04}Â…"Pure unsubstantiated opinion!"
[metro04] “your universe (and that of many here)”, do NOT reflect real world quantified verification processes for medical, science, engineering, scholastic research methodology, or the likes. Almost every design, development, or breakthrough requires a variety and battery of methodical, multi-verification processes. No mere individual can profess an unsubstantiated claim without having to prove their findings, hence the burden of proof obligation."
It's very important that, from this point on, everyone should follow Mr. Metro's rules and regulations. If you fail to do so, you are clearly either superstitious, mentally challenged, deluded or part of a a criminal fraud. Whatever experience you have is inadmissible unless accompanied by certified letters from academic editorial boards because scientific journals never err.
Mr. Metro has further established, once and for all, that any reviews or opinions expressed by the representatives of Stereophile, Paul McGowan, Positive Feedback, Stereo Times and many more publications easily accessible on line regarding high end fuses all reflect the thoughts of people who are either in the pockets of advertisers, deluded, con artists, or mentally challenged.
I'm grateful to Herr Metro for showing me and everyone else that what any of us hear is irrelevant unless it is supported by research studies. If we could rid this and all forums of the "pure unsubstantiated opinion" that he finds so upsetting, the world would be a much more orderly, easy-to-comprehend place. I'm hoping his precepts will be adopted by audio societies across America. This chaos has gone on long enough!
Now that high end fuses have been thoroughly debunked, perhaps Mr. Metro will enlighten us about power cords, power conditioners, and digital interconnects.
Thank goodness, I finally see the light. (unless my eyes are lying to me as my ears apparently are) |
I''ve never claimed to be a genius, but I know when i'm in the presence of one, metro04. Even if I'm far beneath your level, i hope you won't abandon us and stop despensing advice!
So here goes: I'm in a bit of a panic. I can't find any independent, vetted research studies to support Conrad-Johnson's claim that the teflon capacitors they use affect the sound in their equipment. Per Your guidelines Meteo04, this must mean I've been ripped off. I was hoping you could post the academic studies you used for buying all of your equipment. This would help all of us make much better purchasing choices. |
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Metro04,
That was brilliant. It is hard to keep up.
Now, back to my main question: could you please post the academic studies you consult before you buy your equipment. I'm eager for the bedtime reading.
I'm a bit surprised that you're willing to bet money on an unsubstantiated opinion that Conrad-Johnson has measurements to support all of its design decisions. Please post the supporting document! Or have you altered your precepts? I'm sorry I have such a hard time keeping up. Is it now that only other people have to provide studies or documents when presenting their suppositions? Have you posted any studies yet? I can hardly wait. |
Congratulations, Metro04. After attempting unsuccessfully to assassinate a hard-working, reputable inventor's credibility, you now spit on the evidence you perpetually demand. You really are the exceptional intellect you portray yourself to be. Would it be too strenuous for you (before it's time for another nap) to go into depth about how the measurements provided here are so clearly bogus? I can hardly wait to be dazzled by your technical rebuttal to the measurements posted here on this thread. You are, after all, fully qualified to judge the results, are you not? It'd be nice to hear about those qualifications as well since you're the only one here claiming to be "technically" qualified. You are questioning the folks at HiFi Tuning. Wouldn't it be good idea to establish for everyone here what your extensive credentials are? Just to set the record straight, if it's not too much to bother. |
Metro04,
Thanks for being so patient with me. Are you saying Conrad-Johnson has data proving and explaining that it is in fact the teflon capacitors that cause their equipment to sound different from their competitors' equipment? It could be that they do, but unless you can provide that data, your supposition is unsubstantiated. At least that's what unsubstantiated means according to my silly old dictionary. But if substantiated fact actually means anything you happen to say or suppose, then I think I understand. No one wants another "pure unsubstantiated opinion" ticket from the Truth Patrol.
As for your use of the word " proof", well you really have revolutionized the use of that noun. Again, I apologize for being so slow in comprehending the new definition and application. You have demanded academic studies in past posts. I'd like to read some that you've used in your equipment selection process. I've been reading far too many "audio" publications which you've ridiculed, for good reasons I'm sure. Please give us your top ten academic journal articles (citations would be helpful) so we can share the wealth.
Paul McGowan just wrote in his PS Tracks blog on Wednesday that, "Two amps that measure the same don't sound the same." That's odd. People who aren't blessed with your level of genius might conclude that Mr. McGowan is implying that some sound eludes current measurement tools. But, again, I'm sure your background, training and ethics are far more "pure" than that of Mr. Gowan, Mr. Hartley and Mr. Atkinson. |
Jedinite,
It'd be interesting to hear from someone who has compared the Isoclean, hifi tuning and cheaper ceramic fuses.
I have compared the stock ceramic fuse in my Classe' Delta 2200 amplifier with a Supreme Hifi Tuning fuse with a friend present. I won't share the full measure of my enthusiasm (apparently it enrages some people) but my friend opted to order some for himself after he heard the difference. I'll leave it at that. There's no doubt that what a change is worth is utterly personal and I would never challenge what another person hears (or doesn't). |
Mr. Jones , you might also do well to read Paul McGowan's PS Tracks blog. If you are as open to having your own assumptions challenged as you are to challenging the assumptions of others, you might actually discover that not all matters can be answered by measurements or double-blind tests ( which have long been abandoned by audio designers as useless). For others, I would,indeed, recommend you read Mr. Aczel's diatribe. It puts him squarely in the conspiracy theory camp occupied by people who have NOTHING to do with invention, innovation or the furthering of this great hobby. Mr. Aczel would have you believe that William Zane Johnson of Audio Research was a dishonest or deluded huckster trying to lead you down the garden path. Mr. Jones either failed to understand Lacee 's point or he's just here to throw boogers at everyone who wants to share their audio discoveries. I'll let greater minds be the judge. |
God bless you, nonoise! I lived in Germany for several years and I can tell you that neither the EU nor the very controlling and quality-contro crazy German government would allow HiFi Tuning to sell, let alone export something used in electronics that was either dangerous or not what it was claimed to be. The document you have provided is evidence of this. Of course, there's no way to prove to skeptics that this document was not produced by a mad scientist employed by a religious cult. ;-) |
Metro04,
Oh, I *do* stand corrected; you are not a mere genius. You are a passive-aggressive genius without the balls to back up your bluster. You think that by writing the words "I'm not saying HiFi Tuning's data is false or embellished" that this gives you cover for the implication in the same post that it's merely a marketing ploy. Only someone who thinks he's a genuine genius would think he could hide behind that thin piece of gauze. In addition to being passive aggressive, your position in this thread is also cowardly. You won't post your credentials, you won't listen to the product in question and you're too lazy to perform a measurement experiment to back up your.....beliefs? I thought you said beliefs weren't admissible here.
You may be a genius Metro04, but, as my grandpa once remarked about a similar fellow, "You're all hat and no cattle." Put up or shut up. |
I'll quit if you will, Jeff. ;-) |
Metro04,
You demanded measurements that explained Hifi Tuning's claims. It's been posted here. Why do you ignore the data and requests for your credentials? Because you continue to imply that they are snake oil salesmen, you owe the inventors at HiFi Tuning an apology. This isn't about you or me. It's about unqualified people like you slandering the good products of others, which you've never even tried or measured, by the way. If someone did this to something you made, you might begin to understand how wrong it is. |
Check out Mr. Jones' other thread:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1318078909&openflup&2&4#2
Apparently, I'm not the only member who is perplexed by someone who has contempt for a hobby choosing to post on a website dedicated to it. |
Jeff,
Your lack of seriousness makes you a far more worthy opponent than I have been on this forum. I took the bait and that's my bad. I, do, however, find it hard to resist defending good products made by good people. Questioning the veracity of a product is fair; ridiculing the people who make the product and those who use it is nasty. It's interesting to see that people who ridicule others and question other people's honesty don't want to be on the receiving end of the same treatment. Maybe there's a lesson there. I'm sure there's a far better way to make the point, but someone else will have to figure it out. With regard to the OP's question. I agree that it has been "asked and answered." The joy these fuses continue to bring me is one thing I wish for everyone....even Metro04. |
Frogman,
You're right about musicians. All the guitarists I know (some famous, some not) are very particular about whether they use a certain tube amplifier or one of solid state design. None of them argue over whether there's a difference. |
Jedinite,
If you haven't experimented with a good power conditioner or after market power cords, you might consider that before fuse upgrades. The advantage of power conditioners is that they can improve every component plugged into them. They also lower the noise floor to such an extent that you'll hear tweaks and adjustments to your system more readily. Shunyata and PS Audio gear can be found for reasonable prices on a'gon. Not that it proves anything, but my father was thrilled with the improvements he heard recently after we applied power conditioning to his midfi system. He has the NAD 326BEE and Meadowlark speakers, which are hardly pricey. Good luck on your journey. |
Jedinite,
I like my Hubbels...it'll be interesting to hear whether they work for you. |
The Flat Earth Society newsletter ( yup, they still print paper) just came out...the latest article is about how nano particles cannot exceed the speed of light. Apparently this violates what the Society calls Einstein's Law. (which he called a theory, btw). Swiss researchers are undaunted. They just caused a nano particle to appear in two jars at the same time. No word from the Flat Earther's...they still can't believe there's land beyond the horizon. |
Lacee,
Your experience mirrors mine exactly. This hobby has never been more fun and these fuses are a welcome, budget-priced upgrade that helps me get the most music out of what I already own. The key word for me here is Music. I favor anything that helps me appreciate more of what I already enjoy. A friend of mine just put new fuse in his VTL 2.5 preamp and he's over the moon. More fun. What can be wrong with that? |
Gbmcleod,
I *love * a guy who puts his money where his mouth is! Plus it's fun to see what happens. Thanks for doing this. |
