Currently using these in a 14x25 room. Enjoying them for the most part, but they can sound aggressive and make mediocre recordings sound like crap and be somewhat fatiguing. I’m interested in trying something that is slightly more forgiving without sacrificing a lot of detail, air, dynamics, etc.
Any suggestions?
Associated equipment (preamps still in flux):
Amps Pass XA 100.5 monoblocks
Preamps – Tube Audio Valve Eclipse Cary SLP-05
Preamps – SS Fire H20 Wyred 4 Sound STP SE Pass XP-20
If you change to a more forgiving speaker like a Verity, or a Sonus Faber, you will be giving up on the excellent Wilson clarity and dynamics.
Your issues are most certainly room and setup related. It sounds like you have done some treatments, which is a good start, but the next step is to take a more objective approach to acoustics. That low ceiling isn't working for you.
If it were me, I would look into hiring an acoustic consultant who can take full measurements of the room acoustics issues, and work with you to address the acoustic shortcomings.
If you change speakers, you will just have a different set of problems.
it may be worth a call or email to wilson. you may find a simple solution such as changing the spike configuration. i know with the wp, spikes and spacers are tools that can produce some very dramatic changes. wilson support has been very responsive and helpful in my experience, particularly jerron.
some interesting perceptions in this thread. personally, i see the sophia as a speaker that is extremely versatile and pleasant. to my ears, laid back and easy to listen to. i attended a gathering with dave and daryl wilson a couple of months ago and they set up sophia2's with a small krell integrated and a krell dvd standard. the cables were middle to low in the mit line, the room was not treated and over all bad. they sounded amazing. i wanted to go home and sell all my big dollar stuff and get an integrated/sophia pair.
people hate on wilson for many reasons unrelated to the sound...
it is inexcusable to have speakers costing over 10 grand (or for that matter ONE grand) that sound this disappointing. the sophias are good transducers, no question, but raising this many issues in (what sounds like) a decent room with very good components upstream just doesn't add up. i'll bet a pair of eggleston andra's (or similar speakers like sonus fabers or von schweikerts) would sound very natural and unforced, while giving up very little in resolution. and you can get a used pair for a song...
before you go off on another pair of speakers, and I'm not a big fan of Wilson from what I've heard of them in local showrooms, I'd say try this one thing...
CAll the cable co and ask for a pair of Nirvana SX Ltd, and a pair of Nirvana SL ICs. Put the SX onto the ??? source, and the SL onto the preamp to amp.
Things should then be mo betta.
That move will cost $50 or so to find out... and that beats $10K or so, easy.
Wilson's have a bit more life in them than the Revels, but I've found both less than musically satisfying without tubes throughout... but that's just me
you could try all SX Ltd throughout too, even in speaker cables. The ambient retreval is fascinating. I'd bet they'll fix your woes... and save ya some dough in the process!
A dedicated room is a great thing to have, so you should take advantage of it. I'm kind of surprised that your speakers are sounding aggressive in that room with all that "deadness" around you.
A couple of other points:
How old are your Speakers? Are they fully broken it yet?
You certainly need to dedicate one seating position for yourself, with the proper seat height at the midrange-tweeter axis. I assume you're sitting in the front row, correct?
I would recline the other chairs behind you when not in use, but I can't believe that would be your problem, nor do I think your screen is the problem, because your room is dead enough, any deader and I would think that we need to get "CSI" down there.
I also don't understand why you have to move the speakers back and forth for movies and audio only. It took me 3 weeks to setup my speakers, with laser pointers calibrated by NASA>.
You need to find the best listening position for the speakers and then you should try to work the screen around the speakers and not the other way around. Sometimes too much toe-in can sound a bit aggressive, even if you're off by a 1/4 inch for each speaker, then that could translate to a huge difference. Tape on the floor is not accurate enough in my opinion. I'm telling you..., even if I look at my speakers the wrong way, they sound different.
Another point that I agree with is that you should strongly consider demoing a Tubed Amplifier.
If none of this works, then I think you may need; "NEW SPEAKERS.... NEW SPEAKERS....NEW SPEAKERS!!
See here for plenty of great alternative suggestions with no mention of Wilson Sophia. I like the last suggestion - Active PMC great detail but not fatiguing.
Based on what you are looking for the Silverline Bolero speakers may be just perfect for you. They sound exactly like what you described in this thread.
I have found them more Aggressive then Fatiguing. But we all hear different and we all have different rooms. When I had my Maxx 2 they were to aggressive for me no matter what amps I used. But it all comes down to personal taste at this price point.
BTW I thought the Sophia II was Wilson's better speaker and in most rooms there best speaker.
to the OP- i'm not sure i agree that treating the front wall is the right thing to do. from all i've read, unless you have dipoles---it really isn't that necessary.
i've owned the Sophia 1s btw, and never have found them fatiguing in th eleast---unlike the WP 6s.
Dave- i agree that diffusion is necessary for a good room, but what you list won't do the trick.
i would also agree that dead rooms are too be avoided, and have commented on "absorption"-based rooms in the past. i think a good mix is in order (and what my room is doing)
but a lot of stuff you list is reflective by nature...not diffusive. i was also looking into the drapes route, but the thick "stage" type drapes aren't very aesthetically pleasing that are used to absorp sound. i am going to use fabric blinds backed in vinyl groovers for a more diffuse style (i have a wall of windows to contend with on the left side)
a lot of the room is its size/proportions---i'm unlucky and have a more squarish room which requires more work. if your room is more the "golden ratio"---then more power to you! i am jealous....and if 10 years down the road have a large house, will search for one with dedicated listening room in almost perfect ratio.
I find that the Wilson sound is anything but bright. If anything, the sound has changed from the WP6 days to a more rolled off highs. But... tweeter ear relationship is critical and the Sophia's don't handle that relationship well as they are not that adjustable. My Maxx IIs have the ability to adjust the head tilt & hence tweeter directionality. I can hear the difference between 2 positions of adjustment instantly (I think there are 14 positions) with ease. Based on your room size and current used Maxx II pricing they are a steel for an upgrade.
I have heard many a different speaker and many have sounded bright and hard at times. But they all benefit from proper tweeter / ear position. Unfortunately not all speakers can do such adjustment but many do compensate with adjustable tweeter outputs.
Now, I use tube amplification which might have something to do with my preference for the Wilson sound (but I doubt 100%, as I have used very high end SS amps with great results) and I find most Be. tweeters to be bright (or hissy) sounding (as a few others have agreed). You will need to let your ears be the judge.
Madfloyd you may want to look outside the Wilson line. I'm afraid that is the Wilson sound. As you move up the line you get more of it. Some people love and some people don't.
I would look in this order. Verity audio will give you the bass impact and the best midrange going. Super easy to drive.
Magico they get better the more time you spend with them. Takes a bit to get use to them. Not the same bass impact as the wilson.
Rockport with the right room they are very good. side firing woofer makes them though to place.
Vandersteen Maybe the complete opposite to Wilson.
"Isn't this thread really about justification for buying new speakers?"
Justification? No.
Changing speakers is not something I would do casually.
In this economy it sucks to have to sell gear. It either takes forever or you lose a fair bit. Selling speakers is the worst since they're heavy beasts, require freight etc.
What I am seeking is something that will satisfy me (and yes, I'm picky). I'm close with the Sophias, and if I had to keep them I would (and that may be what I end up doing). While I've tried to tune them to taste, I haven't been totally successful. So I can't help but wonder if I'm trying to fit a square ped into a round hole, which ultimately leads to considering other speakers. Since there's nothing that leaps to mind (other than the Sashas), I thought I would seek suggestions.
The room is 14 x 25 x 7.5. It's actually a dedicated home theater. Listening position is the middle of the room (not ideal I know, but I have a riser with second row of seating behind me and I can’t move backwards). The room is soundproofed and carpet is a thick shag. I have Real Traps (corner mondo bass traps) in the front corners. I use two Real Trap panels for first reflections (just leaning against the side walls). The front wall is NOT treated as there is a 11’ wide screen (for home theater the speakers are tucked into the corners and EQ’d; for 2 channel I pull them out in front of the screen).
I’ve always thought the room was on the dead side of things (I used to have several ASC wall planks on the side walls but removed them seeking more ‘air). Previous speakers were Aerials (very rolled off high end and sounded muddy in this room).
There are pros and cons about the forwardness of the Sophias. They have nice presence and transients are great. But even with good recordings there can be certain higher frequencies that are painful. I listen at about 85db which is probably relevant to the conversation since at very low volumes it’s not an issue.
I’ve played with different speaker cables and interconnects. This has helped (also been playing with different preamps which has helped) but not solved the problem completely. I am certainly open to the possibility that it could be the room. Couches are leather and have fairly high backs – so the ones on the riser are probably somewhat deflecting sound. The rear wall has all the equipment racks and doesn’t have a lot of bare wall space. I’ve considered getting drapes for the screen.
As for budget, I’m willing to go ‘up’ from the Sophias (for example I would entertain the new Sashas, but probably not higher than that).
I had a simliar experience but it was with the version 1 Sophia's; I had been using the W/P 7's for some time and traded them for the Sophia's, to downsize my system. The W/P's midrange was recessed and I always wished it to be more forward. (Let me take a moment to state that I believe both my W/P's and the Sophia's could have garnered better results with more freedom of movement in my room.)
When I switched to the Sophia's the midrange was more forward, which I liked, but they were more aggressive and fatiguing just as you experienced. I did not experiment much with placement of the Sophia's as I had another set of speakers I prefered so I sold the Sophia's.
Keithr, I am very pleased with my room actually. I learned from Dunlavy that having your listening position against the back wall reduces standing waves and supports deep bass. The best rooms I've heard have had natural room treatments such as wood tables, soft furniture, plants, uneven/open walls, lower ceilings, drapes, artwork etc... Breaking up the frequencies and dispersing them reduces cancellation/amplification effects. Many treated rooms I've heard have sounded dull and lifeless. A balance is needed I guess:O)
dave- i think you have room issues. if your couch is against the rear wall, that is a telling sign.
the trees, canvas art, and drapes aren't really treatment. i am going through the same process myself, and i've given up on better components until the room is solved. i ended up hiring Rives...
I have heard Watt Puppy's with Jadis tube gear and it was amazing. My friend had WP as well with all ss and I did not like it nearly as much (though pretty darn good but VERY fickle)
I know my experience is with the WP not Sophia 2 but I hope this helps - also fwiw I am a tube guy...
Can you give some examples of the recordings that end up sounding harsh?
I've heard the Sophias several times with a wide variety of material for extended periods in Brooks Berdan's listening rooms at his shop(and trade shows) and the two words that I would never, ever, attribute with those speakers are aggressive or fatiguing. If anything, his systems have always been on the forgiving side of the spectrum.
But, you have a top-notch system, so as few others have suggested, it might be more a factor of room interactions - or more correctly, room reflections causing the problems.
Your room is way to narrow for Avalon. I feel your pain with the Wilson speaker. Over time I felt the same thing with my WP8.
Given you room size you have options. Maggies have new speakers coming out so I would wait. Rockport makes a nice speaker but controlling the bass is not easy.
Any other speaker you listen too in that price range will not be as aggressive as the Wilsons.
BTW I'm a very happy Modwright transporter customer. That darn thing has me listening to music again and I never have to get off my butt.
I would say give Verity a listen you would be very surprised.
Sure, the room dimensions are approx. 20ftLx16ftWx7ftH. Subfloor is concrete with berber carpet/heavy padding over it. Drapes on left wall at first reflection point for L CH. Open right to bar 4ft from end next to front wall. Tall Plants behind speakers in corners, soft fabric couch along rear wall (listening wall). Large wood end table on left next to couch and in front of couch. Large wood cabinet behind and in between speakers at 36"H. Canvas artwork behind speakers and behind listening position. Speakers are 12ft apart tweet to tweet and 48" from front wall left/right outside edge, 46 1/2" inside edge L/R. Left speaker 3ft from left draped wall. Listening position is 11ft from mid panels. Subs are outboard L/R in line with mid panels and raised onto 2" thick wood platforms..both are spiked with Mapleshade heavyfeet. Ceiling is acoustic tile. Room sounds just slightly on dead side/neutral. Walls are dryvit/over wood studs. Dedicated 20amp lines wt wattgate recepticles. Previous speakers seemed to lack low level dynamic shadings and soundstaging was ok but not great. Depth was good but not great. Some speakers sounded bright (Winds). Others sounded too warm and rolled off (Krell Res2's). The Sophias lacked air and seemed a tad closed in sounding. Is that enough detail?
I sold my Sophia's. I've owned many other box speakers such as Watt/Puppy 6's, Dyn C4's, B&W801N's, ML Odyssey's, Totem Winds and Forests, Dunlavy SC-V's etc... My instincts told me to think outside the box and give Magnepan a try. The 3.6R's have been the most glorious upgrade I have ever experienced. Problems I thought were due to other components over the years are now gone! Strings are natural, bass is addictively textured and full of dynamic shadings, treble is sweet, phenomenaly extended, pure and grain free with no fatigue. Micro and macro dynamics are utterly realistic. Mids are full, ripe and organic. Soundstaging and depth are the best I've heard as well. Once broken in, they far excede the requirements of any music loving audiophile. The funny thing is that all of the anecdotal misinformation passed around about Magnepans being bass shy, lacking in dynamic slam, having bright treble, being hard to drive, hard to place or lacking in focus or transparency is complete nonsense. My 3.6R's driven by my Krell 400xi have none of the limitations I had heard talked about in high end circles. Once you hear a properly set up pair you would have to be into cherishing audio artifacts rather than music to not fall in love with them.
Do you experience this with both your analog and digital front end? I bet the Sophias sound excellent w/ good recordings (as mine do). If your goal is to set-up a system to make these inferior recordings sound "good", I fear you will end up with a highly colored system. I would experiment with speaker and listening chair positions, room treatments, and cables before giving up on the Wilson's.
I would look at room treatments if you haven't already done so. I was having a similar problem with my Mini Utopias, too bright and aggressive on so- so recordings and some panels from Ready Acoustics helped quite a bit. But there seems to be a tendency with Focal, Wilson, and some of the other high end speakers to go for the last bit of detail. I spend most of my time with my Spendor SP-1/2e's, which give a more relaxed presentation. I have also read good things about S-F but no dealers near. I would check out the room before I did anything else. Mine is 13x 35 and I found I was getting good response at 32Hz, way down at 50 and 62 and back up at 100. [I use 2 REL Stadium Subs]. This made the sound more aggressive than it is after I put up the panels. Response is now flatter and sound fuller. Hope this is some help.
Verity Audio Parsifal Encore or ovation. I have spent time in the dealers with the Wilson's, I think I know what you mean, they seemed a little forward in the upper mids, lower treble, (thought room set up and tastes can make them perfect). I have been stunded by my Parsifal's and will keep the speakers as I upgrade everything else along the way. A more refined, subtle presentation that does not grab you but quietly seduces you.
Without knowing that, it is difficult to give you a good informed answer, but, off the top of my head, I'd say try something from Sonus Faber or Avalon Acoustics. Both of them make some of the most non-fatiguing speaker that I know of, and yet are very high quality.
By the way, do you really want to upgrade as the title of your thread suggests, (i.e. do you wish to spend more money than the Sophia 2's cost?), Or, Do you just want to swap them out for something in the same ballpark?
Good Luck!
PS It might also help to know where you live, so that we don't suggest something that is not available in your area/country.
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