Upgrading form Pass integrated amplifier to a better one
Hello,
Currently I have a PASS INT-250 integrated amplifier . The Pass INT-250 is a very good integrated (in my system it was overall better than Plinius Hiato, Gamut D150se, Mark Levinson 535, Vitus RI-100, Accuphase E-470 and some others) but I can't get rid of the feeling that I miss some explosiveness (drum kicks for example) and micro details.
I know that its not the speakers. The new Sonus faber tradition I have are much more open, dynamic and airy than previous Guarneri Evos, Elipasas SE and Amati Anniversarious I used to own. And before buying them I auditioned the Serafinos with Audio Research separates and it was the amazing combo. But I really prefer not to go the separates road ( ICs, power cords and space contribute to financial constrains also) and even so I like the combo of Pass and Serafinos overall but from time to time looking for some better integrated on the market.
Currently I presented with a good opportunity to buy latest Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated or latest just released Accuphase E-650. No possiblilty to demo them, so I am asking here on the forum if anybody can comment if Gryphon Diablo 300 or Accuphase E-650 will be better integrated than Pass INT250 overall and
especially in terms of dynamics, micro details and harmonics.
Any advise and opinion would be very appreciated.
My system: Esoteric K-05x, Pass INT-250, Sonus Faber Serafinos, all cabling are the Shunyata Sigmas.
Room is 12" wide by 17" long. Listen mostly acoustic jazz and chamber classical on low to moderate levels.
Russell, yes I have heard same. The magic of the Sia-025 lies within the 25W class A mode. Since I have not heard the Vitus in my system or in any other system for that matter, I can not comment on the sonic attributes of either mode but I am quite confident that 25W class A will fall flat on its face in my fairly large room driving my Verity Parsifal Encore. Not sure how the 150W class a/b mode would sound like though.
smoffatt I have not heard the vitus SIA-025 but one of the concerns I have is that in some of the reviews I read is that the reviewers hint that the magic disappears running the amp in the higher output mode. Can you or anyone else comment on this?
Why argue over what Mi4 heard. If you like Gryphon sound great, however there is a lot of extreme high end equipment that is lean sounding. Plus everyone hears differently.
I must agree also that the Gryphon is anything but thin sounding, I think it is one of the best amps made at any price today. If you are a lover of classical music this is what the 300 was made for ,the treble is extended and so smooth. I have heard it driving their own Pantheon model and also Zingali Client name speakers.The two speakers are entirely different beasts with the Zingali being very large horns for midrange and treble and huge dynamic woofer for bass. The Pantheon If I had to say anything about the two would be they are the most accurate of the pair and the dynamics with them are mind blowing ( you should hear an orchestra at full pelt ) and of limitless power. The Zingali clients through the 300 remind me of going to a favourite hall and listening to a string quartet or cello or violin, they add an enveloping glow that is memorable hours after the event. The 300 I heard had the DAC module inside and the way I see it it may be quite an expense for it but just think what you will save by not having to buy a power cord and interconnect for it. Also the DAC is styled on their wonderful Kalliope DAC and it is not too far removed from it. All in all anyone choosing the 300 will have an amp for life plus the DAC is upgradeable as technology gets better.
mi4, I've never seen the word 'thin' being used on Gryphon before. I've heard the original Diablo, and the word 'thin' never came into my mind when listening to it. Where did you hear the 300? I wonder how a system can be setup to make a Gryphon sound thin...
I have had both the Diablo 300 and the 120 over for audition in my system. The 300 is the beast to get. My Pass Int-60 held its own against the 120 but fell on its face compared to the 300 imho. I’m saving up for the 300 unless I get lured into getting the new Luxman L-509x
I have heard the SIA-025 and it sounded sublime. Since the SIA-025 has been out for a few years used pricing is a great deal. How it compares to either Diablo would simply be a guess in my part.
I shall wait for this anticipated review. Why pay more for added power that it is not really needed. I currently own a pair of tube monoblocks delivering 110w/ch with satisfying results. Watt for watt, I wonder if a Vitus SIA-025 is not a better amp than a Diablo 120. There are 2 SIA-025 for sale here on agon for $14K.
denon1, Ok, that would make a difference. I had thought that the Diablo 120 was simply a scaled down version of the Diablo 300 using the same preamplifier stage. 6 moons will be releasing their review very soon on the 120. It will be interesting because they had reviewed the Diablo 300 and I am sure there will be some type of comparison. I know the 300 is a beast.
Bob, I did not listen the 120 but I called gryphon myself and they told me that diablo 300 has class A dual mono preamplifier stage that is taken from their refference preamplifier. This contributes to more deatails and better instrument placements in the sound reproduction The 120 does not have it.
denon1 Granted that the diablo 300 is more powerful but other than you who else says the 300 is more refined than the 120? Have you listened to the 120 in your system to make your conclusions? Yes the diablo should have better bass and possibly play louder but with the right speaker tell me why the 300 would be more refined?
If it may be your last amp why not make it the great first ? Diablo 300 would be just right and would bring more out of your speakers. Listen to youtube, same Gryphon speakers with Diablo 120 and Diablo 300, you can hear the difference - much more powerful and easy going sound.
One of the most interesting thread I have come across in recent years. I have been considering replacing my ARC tube separates with a top tier SS integrated for several years now. I have a pair of Verity Audio Parsifal Encore with 89db effeciency that I like very much.
Would like to pair a good SS integrated with those and reading through this thread it would appear that a Vitus SIA-025 or Gryphon Diablo 120 would likely be a good match. However, like you guys in the US there is no possibility to audition either one in Canada as there are no dealers or distributor.
It would replace an ARC REF3 LE and a pair of Classic 120 mono’s that we’re both modded by GNSC a few years ago. They produce 110w/ch with satisfying loudness level in my 15’x 23’ room. Would love to hear a Vitus or Diablo 120 in my room with the Parsifal. I feel that a Diablo 300 would be overkill.
This would be my very last amp. I would however likely keep my REF Phono2 and Weiss DAC. Anyway as someone pointed out somewhere above, very good thread indeed.
Some update, the Gryphon continues to sound better. I have around 150 hours on it and I think its fully opened up and sound outstanding. For sure in anther league from Pass INT-250. Now, esoteric will increase its retail pricing across the board worldwide by 10-15% on 12/24. This and great offer from my dealer pushed me to do a long wanted upgrade from esoteric k-05x to esoteric k-01x. This is the final step to achieving what I want and I am done. Once hi end streamers become less expensive I will look for something like Aurender N10 in a couple of years.
Ypsilon Phaethon integrated is $25k retail. I have not heard it, but by all accounts it is great. Gryphon Diablo 300 should be able to drive very well many different speakers.
Sounds like an all-Gryphon system is out of my budget; but would still be fun to hear. And if the Ypsilon is even more expensive, I'd better not even go there.
pokey77, yes there are dealers, you have to ask the distributor. Gryphon separates are very expensive, so is the dac. The least expensive stand mounted speakers are $30k, I think. Also, if you really consider Gryphon integrated listen to Ypsilon Phaethon integrated as well. More expensive, less powerful, no dac or phono option but.. It's hybrid design and a quite unique one.
Well, I just looked up dealers in the US and according to the website, there are no dealers; just a distributor. Again, they are close to me so I may give them a call.
It would be great to not only hear the 300, but to hear a full Gryphon system at the lower-end of the price range. I know that is funny, but you also know their gear is quite expensive.
I want/hope to build one more system and so I am looking at the best integrateds, with a great speaker, and a DAC or possibly reference quality CD player as my last system. I've had my current system a little over ten years now and having heard so much really good gear in the last four or five years, I have the itch to build one more system. We shall see.
pokey77, be careful. If you listen to Gryphon you are likely to want one. Definitely steer clear of Flemming's separates especially power amps. As he put it in one interview pointing to some monster amp of his - This will wake up dead Eskimo - . Danish humor, I love it.
A DAC shoot-out would be interesting - internal vs external. It may be closer that one might think; the Gryphon with internal DAC needs no extra interconnect and may also greatly benefit from the synergy that has been engineered into the product.
This integrated looks to be very good, double-downing from 8 ohms on down. And pricing wise is competitive at its' "retail" price. I hope to hear it in 2018; the distributor is within 30-40 miles of me and I hope to find a dealer nearby, hopefully with speakers I'm familiar with.
Yeah. You guessed right with the Gryphon. I knew it. It is definitely worth experimenting with cables and power cords. If I myself was doing it I would start and probably end with five brands - Gryphon, Purist Audio, Echole, Stage III and Tchernov Cable. All cables of the same brand at a time, though mixing could theoretically give unexpected results.
Ok guys. My Gryphon Diablo 300 is ccurrently on 80 hours mark braking in and I feel that it needs another 70- 100 to fully open up. Differences with the Pass INT-250 so far:
Gryphon is more revealing, not as smooth as Pass. But its tonality more in line with what I hear attending the live concerts; no fatigue.
Gryphon is faster and more dynamic. Its ability to go from a total silence to the popping 3d sound is amazing. I think its his biggest strength.
Gryphon has better defined lows and highs. The midrange is more neutral than Pass and some people who prefer stand out midrange may not like it. But again the Gryphon's midrange is more in line with real live.
Gryphon is being more reveling does require more consideration for the cables matching, front end and speakers. Some poorly made recordings may not sound as pleasant with Gryphon as they do with Pass.
So far I still remain with my initial opinion that Gryphon is a step closer to the live music than Pass INT-250 and more refined integrated overall.
For the money, especially if you find the used one, the Pass INT-250 is a great integrated if you have a space for it. It does not get hot as the class A offers from Pass. But it is just big and heav. In my house its was better than many integrated listed above in this forum, with the exception of two:
1.Vitus SIA-025 that I listened at dealer's show room, but they had it connected to the same speakers I had by that time - Marten Django XL so I could get a good idea.
Yeah. $6k for onboard DAC is a lot. It would be interesting to compare it to outboard DACs used with the Gryphon Diablo. I don't know much about digital, but I understand the Gryphon DAC can be upgraded in the future, on-line. $2200 for the phono stage on the other hand appears to be right on. I doubt you can do better with a separate phono, including cables and power cord, for this amount. Unless I wanted to go much higher or/and tube phono stage, I would definitely get it right away or a little later.
I finally heard yesterday from Gryphon about the price of the 300. They said they "had to
organize themselves." Anyway $16,000 retail for the integrated amplifier
and $6,000 retail for the DAC module. Interestingly they used the word retail.
Have you checked the new ML585? I’ve heard REALLY good things about it, but no personal experience with it. Pass is tough to beat however so I’d be looking at those two.
I also look forward to your review. Looks like at least a few of us are a little jealous of your new music maker. -Thanks for the comments vs. the Pass INT 250.
Aavik doesn't have XLR inputs, has only fixed 62db phono gain, only three line inputs and it doesn't weigh much. No thank you, not for me. T+ A looks impressive. Of those I would only audition the Gryphon and the German. Some do like Vitus, many others not much.
This is one of the more enjoyable threads I've read in years. DEnon1 there is currently an Aavik integrated that is being offered at a very reasonable price. TAS went Gaga over the unit if I recall. I have the gryphon, Aavik, T&A, and th e Vitus on my short list. I wish someone could do an ss integrated shoot-out and share their impressions.
Denon1, yes, I will always keep a cd player as well for exactly the reasons that you said but also for sound quality and some rare discs. I understand, you didn't buy Gryphon dac option, extra $6k is no fun, and I don't know how it competes with outboard dacs of similar cost including cable and power cord. No no, this would be a very uninteresting cause for a divorce, you are absolutely right.
Inna, totally agree with your thinking, cables are critically important part of the system and the higher you are - the more significance they bring. For now I am done - exactly like you said - recovering from these
expenses.
My all cabling including speaker cables (with the exception of ICs - here I have Jade gold reference XLRs that I intend keep for a long time) are Shunyata sigma and they are very good. So going forward I'm finally done with speakers, cables and amplification. The only thing I would like to improve is a frond end, meaning going with a great streamer and dac. But my esoteric k-05x is pretty god and I still like spinning cds and not to be depended on internet connection and streaming provider issues. Ideally I would love to upgrade to esoteric K-01x now but than divorce will become imminent :).
The Rogers EHF 200 (or the 100) is a great sounding integrated amp with loads of dynamic slam although sort of pricey…I've heard 'em, know people who have 'em, and if "tube like" is a thing you want out of an amp, get a tube amp. Lifetime warranty for those.
Great. Yeah, give it couple of hundred hours to fully burn in. When you recover from your expenses you might consider experimenting with cables. This is a very high performance level, and everything matters even more. Tube integrateds aside, there are only two that I would consider for myself if I could afford them - Diablo 300 and Ypsilon Phaethon hybrid. Your Diablo should work just fine even if you replace the speakers at some point.
@denon1, Thanks for the update. Please let us know after continued hours of break-in if there are any aditional improvements. Until then, enjoy the music!
Hello, I got the Gryphon Diablo 300. It was delivered to me by freight on a pallet. After 5 hours of burning (it was totally brand new), this is my observation in compare to Pass INT-250. First obvious difference the low and mid bass on a different level - deeper tighter and more detailed. Second; the Gryphon's dynamic agility is best I heard at my house. The drum kicks, piano notes appears all of a sudden with such clarity, impact and focus - much closer to live performance than pass. The overall presentation is more neutral but still very musical and of cause micro details - on a new Bill Charlap disk I clearly hear him pushing pedals on his piano. I did not hear it with pass that clear. The only area for now were pass is may be better is soundstage of the pass is larger up front, but may be its just because the Gryphon is so new. At the same time the Gryphon's soundstage is deeper - again closer to what I hear attending to real live concerts. So to me in my system (even so Pass is terrific performer) Gryphon Diablo bring me another step closer to live performance with its low/mid bass,dynamic swings and micro details. And another very important aspect - no listening fatigue at all - outstanding for a brand new unit. My search for a perfect integrated is over.
My big thank you to Mike from Suncoast audio for his outstanding service and making it it possible to happen.
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