Upgrade path from Wilson WattPuppy 7s? - seeking advice
I have a McIntosh system with a 275 tube amp, plus some PS Audio equipment. I play many different kinds of music - from Joe Bonamassa to Johannes Brahms.
I like the analytical quality of the WP 7's. They do seem to lack some midrange and do reproduce rock as well as some other speakers. So I previewed the following at Paragon Sound in Ann Arbor, and the price is a consideration. Here are my thoughts but am seeking advice:
(1) B&W 802 D3 - Better with rock, a bit mellow and not as analytical as the WP 7's. Better midrange than my current speakers. (2) Wilson Alexia 1 - A bit pricey even with a hefty discount. Of interest, I found some of the higher resolution music files to be reproduced with too much complexity. The ability to discriminate transients, a feature of the WP speakers, seem to be diminished in the more elaborate sound provided by these speakers.
Any other suggestions? I do not want to spend a great deal of money, but have the ability if necessary.
As usual Gpg4blu, you speak without knowing anything.
My father was an inventor with 13 patents to his name, and he also built audio components in his spare time for fun, he had a Bachelors degree in both Electrical engineering as well as Mechanical, guess who worked with him in his projects?
I started playing with Dynaco components at age 3 and had a reel to reel deck when I was 5, and discovered high end at 17 so you might be older but I started quite young.
I also built Dynakits and had my own ST 70 and Pas 3 and ran DCM Time Windows and Heil AMT 1D, I also built and modfied speakers as well. I owned a system at 20 which was better than most 50-60 year olds: Quad 63 USA monitors, Entec subs, Electrocompaniet preamp, MFA amp, Merrill table, Alphason arm, Ortophon MC 2000 wih matching transformer. That was my first mega rig.
Point I am making is I too have owned a boat load of great gear.
In my 30 years of doing audio as a FULL TIME JOB, I have setup and listened to hundreds of systems and more components than you can possibly imagine. Whether you like it or not unless your income came from the audio business you were and still are a hobbyist, and not a professional in the audio business.
As per writing for a magazine, many magazines hire people because they write well, I have been to several prominent reviewers and their systems sucked and I have also heard several great systems at reviewers as well.
and lastly YOU DON"T READ!
Jeff Dourgay of Tone Audio rated the Personas as being better speakers than everything he reviewed in 2016 and that included Wilson Alexias
Paradigm has created one of the world’s finest loudspeakers the right way, by applying what they’ve learned from decades of research, design and manufacturing know how to produce a speaker with no compromises. There’s nothing they don’t do, nothing they won’t play and from what I can deduce, nothing they won’t partner with regarding electronics.
I’ve heard way too many six figure loudspeakers with caveats attached. There are no caveats that apply to the Paradigm Persona 9H speakers, other than the fact that you probably can’t lift them without help. That’s it. This is a world class, zero compromise loudspeaker for $35,000/ pair.
This level of excellence and execution wasn’t even available ten years ago, and if Paradigm didn’t build everything in house, along with the scale of economies they enjoy, they couldn’t achieve this either
The Paradigm Persona 9H will be our Speaker of the Year for 2017. It’s one of the finest speakers I’ve had the pleasure to listen to at any price
as well as receiving a similar accolade in the Absolute Sound.
Along with Legacy, Paradigm is one of the two manufacturers I’ve found that can really do room compensation well. Its Persona 9H is truly flat, goes very deep, and is still quick and detailed in the bass. Its low end is matched by a superb new beryllium midrange and tweeter with a great deal of life and resolution but no hardness. With excellent driver integration and something much closer to a point-source presentation than most complex speaker systems, the 9H provides some of the best imaging and soundstage performance around.
As per me hating Wilson I don’t, I like their speakers and was an owner of the 3/2 and 5, but I find the company has lost its way in the pursuit of ever increasing profits.
How many speaker companies come out with a next generation product as frequently as Wilson with each model getting a huge price hike over the last one, nor does Wilson use state of the art drivers which are expensive like Magico, YG, Rockport or Paradigm does, sorry in my 30 + years of professional audio I have never heard a soft dome with the airyness and ultimate resolution of a good diamond or beryilium driver. I do love the ATC we sell but they don’t have the clarity and insanly holographic sound that the Personas do, they have their own merits and for the money they are fantastic.
You also fail to READ where I have said that I extoll products that I like even ones that I don’t sell such as Rockport.
In one of my posts I said we compared a $32k T+A amp and power supply vs a $90,000.00 pair of Boulder amps, and found that the T+A had better bass but the Boulder was still a bit better in some ways, and I also said the T+A was remarkable for standing up to a product 3 times the price.
What you fail to realize is I call them the way I hear them. I also value technogy and cost for the dollar,, the fact that the Persona uses state of the art room correction means that the Paradigm speakers will produce cleaner bass in most rooms vs any Wilson product because they do not have that advantage of superior technology.
You also recognized that I came up with a $9k digital combo that came to striking distance of a $40k DCS stack which you recognized as being true.
You may hate the messenger but you shouldn’t hate the message.
You may not like my style but my ears and integrity and system setup knowlege is well known call up Kevin Hayes of Vac, and ask him about me, call up Ted Denny of Synergistic and ask him the same way, you can call almost any manufacturers that over the years that I have championed that I know my stuff.
I am also not saying there aren’t others in the industry that produce good sound. what I find apalling is the lack of real system synergy and setup that way too many systems don’t sound like real music, sorry Quad and Harbeth guys if your system can’’t play live jazz and sound like live jazz you have a colored, non dynamic system.
I also owned Quads for 8 years before moving into the Watt Puppies, large panels suffer from an out of phase rear wave which means equil and opposite reactions cancel out which stunts the dynamics that the speakers have, I have yet to hear a panel which sounds as realistic as a good dynamic speaker.
My mission has always been to seek out the best possible sound for the most reasonable price possible, hence my experimentation which found that a well tweeked Bel Canto Universal player could compete with the 4 times the price DCS stack how many dealers would make it a point to show you that if they knew your could afford a DCS stack?
Over the years I discovered and promoted many brands that the industry now holds in great regard these include:
I went gung ho with demonstrating that a Black Diamond racing shelf and footers could dramatically improve a system and was admonised by the general manager of Innovative at the time for not selling more expensive CD players instead of showing how tweeking up a less expensive player could actually improve the player to a point where a $1k player could sound better than a $3k one, you know the last part of the demo was it was replacing the $1k player with the $3k player on the isolation bass.
I could go on and on, about the cool tweeks we use to dramatically improve a sound system, and I am so sure I could dramatically improve your system, the sad thing is you have such an adversarial way about you it is just sad this hobby is in the pursuit of making music sound real and emmotional.
We post because the bad advice on these forums is just coppious and the biases that people have are ridculous.
Yes we champion products that we feel are superior but in my 12 years of running my own shop we have changed a lot of companies out for others, and that has always been in the pursuit of finding the best products for our clients, and best doesn’t necessarily mean the most expensive either.
We are always on the look out for new products that may be better.
Your thinking that the Personas are good but not world class loudspeakers reek of snobery and closemindness.
When the press who like me do this professionally say that the Personas are easily in this uber class makes you look awefully foolish.
If you like your Wilsons great for you, the fact that a Persona speaker can challenge them and perhaps outperfom them is going to be a fact as more and more reviewers listen to a well setup pair.
Look at the Axpona setup where Paradigm was showing $35k spekaers on a $4.5k amp, with probably inexpensive cables do you think that is going to sound amazing? We have the same $4.5k amp it is very nice but not in the same class as our expensive stuff.
If you were not blown away by our setup could it have been you were in the wrong seat. I tuned that room for one or two seats to be optimium that was all. If you were in the wrong seat you didn’t get the best sound.
I just don't get why it's necessary to make personal attacks. I've received a personal attack recently and I just reminded the person that he didn't know anything about me. Is it really necessary to attack someone, because they have a different opinion about something as "subjective" as audio preferences? I submit most of us have enough sense to recognize that dealer's "may" be biased and "may" have financial gains at stake; therefore we should take their comments with a grain of salt. That being said, all of us are biased and all of our comments should be taken with a grain of salt!
Off the track as I expected. First off Dave, I have fallen in love with Vandersteen's for my purposes. I have been that way about all the gear I buy, just like most of us. I happen to know many in the industry as I've been into it since the late 60's. I'll always post kind things about dealers around the country I've met if they are good.
I won't get involved in your 'mine is bigger than yours' argument with Gpg. He's just a poster and not pushing products he sells to make a living, so I'll just leave it at that.
You did make one comment in an earlier post that really rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it's because of who I am, but I was in sales for years after my Navy retirement. I only stopped due to my MS about 11 years ago. I NEVER can remember a time that I EVER laughed about a customer or potential customer after I left them. Ever. Many of them I would shake my head and try to see their side. I'd wonder why they felt the way they did. I can be very snarky, but I also like to think I respect folks too. I have spoken to Matt and even said that maybe I'd go to your shop with him someday when I can get down there, but honestly, that comment made me realize that the second I left, you'd probably laugh at me and make fun of me. I'm sure it's just me, but you lost any credibility you may have had with me. Not that it matters to you of course.
Off the track as I expected. First off Dave, I have fallen in love with Vandersteen's for my purposes. I have been that way about all the gear I buy, just like most of us. I happen to know many in the industry as I've been into it since the late 60's. I'll always post kind things about dealers around the country I've met if they are good.
I won't get involved in your 'mine is bigger than yours' argument with Gpg. He's just a poster and not pushing products he sells to make a living, so I'll just leave it at that.
You did make one comment in an earlier post that really rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it's because of who I am, but I was in sales for years after my Navy retirement. I only stopped due to my MS about 11 years ago. I NEVER can remember a time that I EVER laughed about a customer or potential customer after I left them. Ever. Many of them I would shake my head and try to see their side. I'd wonder why they felt the way they did. I can be very snarky, but I also like to think I respect folks too. I have spoken to Matt and even said that maybe I'd go to your shop with him someday when I can get down there, but honestly, that comment made me realize that the second I left, you'd probably laugh at me and make fun of me. I'm sure it's just me, but you lost any credibility you may have had with me. Not that it matters to you of course.
Off the track as I expected. First off Dave, I have fallen in love with Vandersteen's for my purposes. I have been that way about all the gear I buy, just like most of us. I happen to know many in the industry as I've been into it since the late 60's. I'll always post kind things about dealers around the country I've met if they are good.
I won't get involved in your 'mine is bigger than yours' argument with Gpg. He's just a poster and not pushing products he sells to make a living, so I'll just leave it at that.
You did make one comment in an earlier post that really rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it's because of who I am, but I was in sales for years after my Navy retirement. I only stopped due to my MS about 11 years ago. I NEVER can remember a time that I EVER laughed about a customer or potential customer after I left them. Ever. Many of them I would shake my head and try to see their side. I'd wonder why they felt the way they did. I can be very snarky, but I also like to think I respect folks too. I have spoken to Matt and even said that maybe I'd go to your shop with him someday when I can get down there, but honestly, that comment made me realize that the second I left, you'd probably laugh at me and make fun of me. I'm sure it's just me, but you lost any credibility you may have had with me. Not that it matters to you of course.
I agree with Ct about laughing at a customer after they left. Dave. Are you that arrogant to do something so childish? I've seen young bitchy little teenage girls do stuff like that, but from a grown man working with customers? Get real. You also talk about what great values $35k speakers are. I don't recall you talking about more real world systems that cost far less than $35k for a whole setup. That is where I think a majority of potential customers are. I'm not in the business like you but as a "hobbyist" for almost 50 years I've listened to many systems of all price ranges and know good sound when I hear it...
To both CT and Mr M, what you are talking about in terms of laughing at a client never actually happened! I was not speaking literally, as a professional salesman you have to put up with a lot of charachters, some people you can understand, and work with, and others you just can’t.
We did discuss the know it all customers, who were not open to coaching and keept on making the same mistakes over and over again, purchasing and repurchasing components, always chasing their tails because they didn’t know what they were doing, or thought they knew more then the sales staff did.
Gndrbp does nothing but attack me and my and my staff, over and over again, which makes me have to resort to long winded explanations and ancedotal evidence to prove him wrong and back up my postions.
The entire sales staff at my store, SBS or Innovative, never sat around and cackled at annoying, or know it all clients. I mentioned this to prove a point.
Ctstooner, you have mentioned your high ranking position with the Navy, do you think I would know 1/100th about the Navy as you do? If we were talking about technology, Navel strategy or deployment I would defer to your superior experience in both deference and respect for your position.
I may have watched specials on Navel history, Ctstooner but I would never even begin to challenge a Navy man with my knoweldge about that subject, instead I would sit and listen to you about all things about Navel operations.
I might quite Robert Mcnammara, but I would never pretend to be as knowledgable as you, I could reference the British Navy under Trafalgar, but again, book knowlege and TV knowledge isn’t the same thing as real world experience.
Do you see my point? There is a difference between having a personal preference which I can respect, and being an unrelenting jerk who attacks another person out of spite.
To state that the Personas are not world class speakers when Jeff Dougay of Tone Audio who has reviewed quite a number of speakers said that the "Personas are world class and competitive with six figure loudspeakers, " and Anthony Cordesman, said the Personas are among the best speakers he has heard, states catagorically that the product is that good.
Now personal taste is personal taste, but Ctstooner, I have invited you into my shop to see for yourself if you might actually prefer the Personas over the Vandersteens and for whatever reason you seem not to be interested.
You have said you have heard the Personas before and not liked them, that maybe true, but as I commented you didn’t hear my setup, as I have also told you I didn’t like the Personas, when I first heard them at another dealers shop as well.
Setup is key, John Rutan is a very good setup guy, and so am I, many others who sell this kind of gear are not.
When I mentioned that one couple drove four hours to hear our setup after not liking the Personas where they heard them, and subsequently purchased a set of the Persona 9H and a T+A amplifier says a lot about setup quality.
Mr. M. you have also not read the majority of our posts.
The Persona line starts at $7,000.00 for a bookshelf speaker with a 7 inch pure Beryilium midrange, which is a driver usually seen in $15-20k reference monitors not ones that someone can actually afford.
They also have a $10k floor stander the 3F which are also remarkable.
I talk about ATC speakers $2,500.00 a pair and $4,000.00 a pair.
I talk about Legacy Focus Signatures $7,000.00 a pair which can compete with many $15k loudspeakers.
I have talked about Nuprime’s outstanding IDA 8 which is $995.00 and it is amazing.
The point I am making is I design and setup systems from all price ranges.
If you care to watch our 2 year old store video you will see tons of affordable gear, from $500.00 pairs of Kef, $800.00 PSB and tons of other great and affordable gear.
(this video was shot before we got the Paradigm Personas and the T+A gear)
My store sells streaming speakers from Paradigm and NAD for $500 and we go all the way up to our two reference rigs with the Kef Blades and the Personas which are both really expensive systems.
As per value, yes $35k is a lot of money for a set of loudspeakers, but if that $35k pair of loudspeakers can compete with ones that sell for $58k or $70k or $120k a pair then believe it or not that speaker even at $35k is a bargain!
High end audio can be very expensive it can also be remarkably affordable, we sell tons of affordable stuff from NAD, Micromega, KEF, PSB, Dali, April Music and Naim to name a few.
Check out our store video and see what is there we have four sound rooms chock full of gear.
Believe it or not Mr M our mission is to seek outstanding products at great values at all levels and price ranges now compare our store to some of the storried NY City stores such as Ears Nova, Audio Arts or Rhapsody check out Rhapsody’s store video and see if you can find a system in their store for $1,000.00 I doubt you will, however, you can find several setups in our shop for $1,000.00 for a complete system!
"the sales people would all laugh at them once they left as their lack of knowledge was staggering"
Audiotroy. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty "literal" to me. No, I haven't read thru the thread completely as I find some of the endless bantering somewhat fatiguing. I'm glad you at least acknowledge the importance of real world affordable systems. It's just hard for many audiophiles to consider a $35k pair of speakers a bargain just because it's compared to a pair at $60k. I think some dealers (and reviewers) get insensitive to that fact.
What started out as a nice thread turned into a disaster. Good Luck to the Op in his speaker hunt. If you can't decide I still have my Wilson Audio Duette 2's for sale.
Troy You finally convinced me. You have the most knowledge. You are not a shill blowhard. You have the best ear, the best taste and are a reliable source of audio information. You are a great salesman. Personas are scientifically and indisputably great speakers and all self respecting audiophiles who have speakers under $100,000 are about to throw them out and run to your little Jersey City hovel to purchase Personas (unless they prefer Golden Ear speakers which are almost as good for a fraction of the price). I can’t believe you found 2 great reviews for the Personas from reviewers who I do respect (and I mean that) but who have provided many excellent reviews to many speakers including Anthony Cordesman’s review of Alexias which was so strong that he used them as one of his references for a time (but not the Personas after he reviewed them). When my friends and I have encountered you live, you never shut up about how great you and your products are. And then you talked some more. And that is why no one I know (7 NY Audiophiles in my listening group and other friends including a two well known manufacturers of gear) will purchase anything from you or place their products with Audio Doctor. By the way--congrats, you once again produced more words than even the famous Bo---only he has something to say compared to your ceaseless blather. P.S. I will not forget to ask Andy Singer and Elliot Fishkin about you to see if they have a recollection of you as a superstar salesperson. I suspect that Andy was not lying to me back in the day when I asked him to make sure you were not my salesperson because you were too hyperbolic and you never shut up. He said he understood and that the complaint was not uncommon. We'll see.
A lot of threads do have fans of particular brands or models trying to make their favorite the subject of the thread even when the particular favorite is hardly related to the main subject. As for outright "sales pitches," it is not that common and I think there really is only one such going on in this thread by someone who does not even realize that he is doing no one, including himself, any favors.
I believe this site is lightly moderated, which to me, is a good thing. If you just hang in here and sort of ignore nonsense, you will find some interest discussions worth following.
As usual Grgp4blu takes a discussion where we have come in and given good advice about possible options including products we sell and a recommendation to visit other dealers to hear a wide variety of competiting products into an arena for personal attacks, which require me or my staff to write over and over again the points, he never seems to get.
I shouldn’t have to mention over and over again the Tone Audio or Absolute Sound review for him to get it. He may not like or have experienced the product correctly but to deny the facts that this is an upcomming and excting new market leader or competitor is just ignorent and silly his comments are designed to bait and attack.
To say that Paradigm a company who spent $4 million dollars in research is in the same company as Golden Ear is just stupid, I am not saying that Golden Ears speakers are good bad or anything, Paradigm is one of the largest speaker manufactuers in North America they can build anything at any price they want. It is like comparing the capability of Ford motors to a small independent company.
This isn’t a matter or personal taste or him in reality making any salient or valid points, this is childish behavior.
The point is and should be these products are tools, quite frankly my company does not believe in favoring any brand ad infinitium.
This means if we find something better we move into that and champion that product or brand. The idea that a vendor is always producing the best products leads to stagnation and eliminates the reality of this or any market that their will always be new and innovative new companies popping up to challenge the status quo.
If Toyota comes out with a revolutionary engine design, it causes the other car companies to revaluate their technology which then means many other companies will go back to the drawing board to up their game.
High end audio is one of the few industries where brand relationships, advertising, and marketing can mean more than sound quality or technological supperiority.
Yes there are Porsche guys and Ferrari guys, (the oldest comapanies to make high peformance cars,) but when a newer company such as Konisberg, or Lotus, Lamborgini, Pagonda, comes into the market the car guys acknowledge that this new product may outperform their current cars, but the car guy mentality is to purchase that car and marvel at what it does and how it is different and unique, not a Ferrari is better than a Porsche or a Ferrari is better than a Pagonda.
All exotic cars are usually well made, and are thrilling pieces of technology yet they all have a personality.
If you go back to the discussion at hand I have owned Wilson loudspeakers along Magneplaners, Monitor Audio, Spica, Quads, Sonus Fabers, and more than a zillion others both professionally and privately.
The mentaility here expoused by some of these gentleman is to ignore that the reason for Magico, YG, and Rockports market emmergence to challenge Wilson, is that Wilson has been the most sucessful high end speaker company in their nieche segment of the market and they are the gold standard in how to build a high end audio company.
I am not picking on Wilson as Gpgr4blu thinks, or denegrating their product but the world is changing hence the reason for all of these other companies nipping at their once singular market share.
The entire world of audio has seen landmark changes, first the LP, then the CD, now streaming. Technology allows for companies to offer things that were not possible and over time these technlogical wonders come down in price,
If you think that room correction, self amplified speakers and advanced driver technolgies will not pop up more frequently and in more companies products you are not seeing the future.
Room correction is a gigantic improvement that can dramatically help people accheive the impossible great bass response in almost any room no matter the size.
If you are a smart consumer you will not be wed to one brand but when looking for an improvement, you will seek to listen to all the market leaders in high performance loudspeakers and that includes digital, analog, electronics etc.
You may prefer the sound of Vandersteen, or Magico or Wilson that is not my point, the point I have tried to make time and time again in these posts is that there is a new rival to these storried brands and you are doing yourself a dis-service if you don’t find a well set up pair and take a listen.
I am also not saying we are the only ones in the country to make the Personas sound good, but I am saying that with a company as large as a B&W or a Paradigm you will invariably find dealers that are large dealers that most likely will not have the right rooms, setups, or matching gear to get the best sound out of them. Magnolia sells B&W 802D3 do you think that most of their stores will have them setup with the appropriate wire, power conditioners, lack of other speakers directly next to them, matching components such as ARC, Mark Levinson Conrad Johnson, Naim, Prima Luna, or will you see Mcintosh. Again not picking on Mcintosh but are they the market leaders in affordable digital such as Mytek, or Lumin, or any one of a zillion dedicated dac brands, same with electronics is Mcintosh as good as Arc, Pass Labs, T+A, Sim audio? These systems are usually sold to people that are not audiophiles so they only know what they are introduced to.
I have never seen such hostility directed at a brand such as this. If it was some tiny upstart new company, like an Estelon, or x,y or z, I am willing to bet some of the gasps that how can Paradigm build a product such as this would not be mentioned.
The fact that any suitable company can build anything is driven by corporate reality, your pocket book, intent and market positioning.
When I have mentioned T+A and have said they are in the same ball park at much more expensive productst they are, how do we know, we have done comparisons with them vs Boulder, MBL, Krell and others as well as reading what critics have said about the brand.
We are in fact having the same discussion right now concerning nuclear weapons, and North Korea, the fact that Mutual Assured Destruction has been keeping the world safe for years has been a reality.
North Korea will never give up the weapons they have won at such a high cost, the pragmatic real diplomat, and negotiator would recognize this. The way to keep a bigger opponent at bay is to have a weapon as well and as North Korea is the smaller opponent, they have chosen a path that they will never back down from.
To make a condition for negotion they having to disarm first is ludicrious, both sides have to make concessions for peace to be won.
My point is that you can’t put your head in the sand and utter belicoise statments, Paradigm is now in the uber loudspeaker building business and their acheivments should be lauded.
If I was looking for speakers in the $60k price range and I could save $20 to $30k and find something I liked as much or better, I would think that would be a good thing and not saying by Gpgr4blu you are trolling a Wilson post or a whatever post, the idea is to produce great sound, the brand should be irrelevant, and not a mine is bigger than yours kind of thing.
Many real buyers are open to suggestion. The fact that the Paradigm Personas are a new product, at a new price point and are not as well known for these reasons is why we are talking about them in the first place because many prospective buyers do not know of them.
And if Grgr4blu thinks money is rainning down on our little company because of these posts he is seriously mistaken, we can not sell these products into Canada, or into Europe or Japan, we are not allowed to sell them out of state unless we have a great reason to do so and the grief in that case can be unbelievable.
So to recap, Wilsons aren’t bad and they certaintly are not better or worse than any other speaker company, Paradigm Personas aren’t necessarily better but may be depending on what you value, nor is Magico, Focal, Kharma, YG better or worse products, these are all valid choices. So are Kharma, Vandersteen, Vivid etc.
In my opinion I would take the Persona 9H over many of todays other reference speakers, because I have gotten amazing sound in my showroom with my equipment in a carefully matched setup.
Everyone reading these posts can come and take a listen to our setups and see for themselves.
Hmm. Haven't followed the thread very closely but as to the OP's question I'd definitely consider the Wilson Yvette. I do own a pair and find them imminently satisfying. From the fit/finish to imminently musical sonics it's a long haul speaker with much pride of ownership. Admittedly without knowledge I just can't consider Paradigm in the same vein. Just a bias I understand. It's a Chevy vs BMW optic that's hard to overcome. I also think that the Revel Salon 2 will compare favorably to virtually anything within reason and at 12k used an unmitigated steal. FWIW
Dave, I know you are a good guy, because Matt vouches for you. That's all I need. Will I come in to meet you in person? Someday. I have to as we haven't seen eye to eye on some things and Id' rather do that in person than on a faceless forum.
I have never liked Paradigm's high end. Every. My daughter has a pair I used to own. She sings (even made the cut at Idol and The Voice when she was 16) and even she says they are too bright. It's the top end and no matter what amps I've heard them with, they were just too bright for me. Again, that's just me and it's one of the biggest things I don't like about gear. I'm sensitive to it. I didn't like the metal wilsons, but enjoy listening to the soft dome ones. I just don't feel they have the detail I get from other speakers. Still a nice speaker and highly dynamic. B&W diamonds are too bright for me also. Way too upfront. Sonus F are too soft for me now days. I liked their older ones better. The newest Magico's S3 newest mark ?? were a bit dry. Highly dynamic and not coherent in the mid bass region down. It didn't mate well for MY ears with the mids on up. It was a strange listening session for me and Peter McKay was the one who set them up in a great sounding room.
There are my reasons as to why I love my Vandersteen's. I'm in no way associated with them. Do I know the folks there? Yes, I do know them. I also know folks at a lot of places as over the years you meet people. Heck, my ex was Mark Levinson's attorney when we were married back in the 90's, lol. ...The man, not Madrigal.
Sounds like the OP love the Wilson sound and if so, that's awesome, but he should (if he can) go listen to all the speaker lines and include Rockport if possible. Then he can figure out what he wants and loves. JMHO.
Troy: gee. The fact that you cannot stop talking or producing words in print--often way off point--- was your problem as a salesperson (which made you intolerable to me and others). My only point to you has ever and will always be to stop hard selling. I am not a defender of Wilson, Magnepan, B&W, Focal, Reference 3a, Marten, Quad or any other speaker brand that I’ve heard, owned or liked. I completely understand why anyone would prefer one speaker brand over another. This hobby is extremely subjective. I just cannot tolerate your constant hard salesmanship usually with outrageous, over the top unbelievable comparisons. You've done it for countless components you sell--it now just happens to be Personas. Your style is offensive to more than a few Goners who have extensive experience in audio and don't need any salesman to tell them that they have the most and best experience and have reached the indisputable conclusion that they sell the best speaker ever made at a great price if only someone would come to have a listen. I will continue to remind you that I welcome Atmasphere, Kevin Deal, Jonathan Carr, fellas from DCS, BelCanto and countless other manufacturers and dealers who add great knowledge to our site without EVER selling their gear here.You continue to be the only one. But this site does not prevent salesmanship. You are allowed to speak endlessly. Keep it up. If the moderator doesn’t stop you, I will call you out whenever you produce thousands of words to waste everyone’s time including mine with rank salesmanship. PS-You sell some fine gear. The manufacturers you represent are not the problem--you are.
Please just go away, you are not doing anyone a service, your constant negativity and selfrighoutness cause me or my staff to retort over and over again to back up my positions, which leads to these long posts.
Again, I shouldn't have to mention over and over again, Tone Audio's Reviews, or the Absolute Sounds reviews to PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW of a doubt that the Personas are a serious new addition to the world of high performance speakers, you can not deny that fact just because we champion the product.
Whether or not someone hears a well setup pair of Personas in a shop such as mine or another well set up pair somewhere, and they come to the same conclusion is a matter of personal taste. Just as if they choose Wilson, Rockport, YG or anything else over a set of Personas.
What is unfortunate is that many people here base their buying decisions on limited data, or limited exposure, so for example if customer x hears speaker Y at one shop and that shop hsd a well set up demo room and speaker b is setup poorly in another shop, the client may be making a purchase decision based on wrong data.
Your calls of impropriety for writing on a Wilson post to call attention to a set of speakers that might make the poster happier and save them money is proof of your bad and selfish behavior. Most people really don't care.
Many people who post here are seeking opinions and are trying to make a decision on what to purchase. There were other people mentioning a whole bunch of speakers on this post, yet I am the only person you berate over and over again.
I like a lot of products and some of these that I don't sell I would own, while others I would not.
The fact that you and your freinds don't want to work with me is no problem, on the same token please keep on wasting your money, I am quite sure I could have saved you a ton of it and perhaps have made your system sound much, much better.
Am I loquacious yes I am, am I knowelegable yes, an I known for consistantly geeting good sound and finding emmerging brands yes all of that is true.
Lets see if you will shut up or have to retort to this post, I am ready to move on can you?
I have recommended to the poster that he comes to NY to hear the world of audio from many dealers other than myself. Do you have any other coaching for this gentleman?
You are too busy talking and selling to understand my issue with you.It's not that you think Personas are great speakers for the $. You are justly entitled to that opinion. It is that you constantly sell, sell and oversell. Hyperbolic blather.
As usual Gprgrblu, you have to have the last word. Do you have any practical advice other than what I have given to this gentleman?
Do you have anything to add please advise us?
Do you know that I am approached by people reading these posts who contact me and find much of what I am saying to be valuable.
I wouldn't have to "sell, sell and oversell if you would just shut your trap.
Again, how many times do I have to retort to your stupidity, you make ridiculous statements that have to be backed up again, so it appears to you that I am doing this "selling" which is my way of replying to you to validate my claims and prove you don't know what you are talking about.
What you seem to think of as selling as us stating ancedotal evidence to back up the claims you refute. You also equate price with performance.
When I said we had the $120k Kharma Grand Exquistes here would you like to see a picture of them in their crates? I am more than happy to oblige. I did love the Kharma DB9 by the way, but they did not sound as good as the Polymers, the Personas are the first $35k speakers which can actually challange the Polymers which are remarkable speakers by the way.
Do you think I would shell out $60 or 70k to bring in a set of speakers which as I said were good but not better than a $70k pair of Polymers that I allready own? Do you actually understand that retailers have to purchase their display stock and so I am going to be very picky at what I am going to pay for.
You can see the $70k Polymers in my store video as well as the Blades I have posted videos did you actually see how much gear and the quality of brands we represent? That is one of the ways that I know what I am talking about.
Do you want to see a picture of us comparing the T+A to the Boulder ata cutomers house? Again I got that too. Did you read my comments on that comparison? Would you like to talk to the man who was there?
I don't know how old you are I am 52 and quite frankly I haven't witnessed too many people in this or any other business who are as blatently vindictive and nasty as you are.
You make statement after statement which you can't back up, I can back up mine. Every product I have ever championed has become at the time the go to product in that catagory or one held in high regard from the critics. From the AMR CD 77, to the Auralic Vega, to the CJ Art and Gat. to the Scaena speakers, the Ushers and many others.
I call em as I see em, and as I stated before there are products I don't sell that I like, at this point there isn't too much on the market that I would actually care to bring in that I don't allready carry.
If you don't have anything pertinent to add to this man's quest for new speakers or do you want to go on another diatribe about me and "selling" please just go away.
Gpgr4blu, you just couldn’t help your self now could you.
How about WHAT CAN YOU ADD to the DISCUSSON at hand, which is not about me, my store, or my knoweledge, whether or not you like my "salesmanship, " but about upgrading from Wilson Watt Puppy 7.
And for the record I was a WIlson owner, with both Watt Puppy 3/2 and 5.not to mention I have current customers with WP 7 and Maxx 3.
So again, please either add something about SPEAKERS or just go sulk in a corner.
@gerryah930 Too bad your thread got swamped by bickering. I hope you got some use of it before it got derailed. As always, please do report back as you listen and compare speakers. It's great to see people's real world comparisons to get a data point.
OP, I would love to hear your thought's on Wilsons, Magico's, B&W, Vandersteen and a few other speakers in your price ranges. That's the only way that you will ever figure out what you want. I've seen many folks go audition some speakers they originally didn't think they'd like and change their minds. As many know I get to listen to a ton of gear both in my house or at some of the shops. I have never been to any shows, but I would like to one of these days.
I ended up with Vandersteen's and have become a huge fan, because I haven't fallen in love with any of the others from Wilson to Focal to Magico to B&W to Paradigm to ..... I have loved Tidal, but can't afford them. I actually liked the newest Proacs, but not compared to comparably priced Vandersteen's. I liked the Rockports that I heard, but I forgot which model. They were out of my league and I'm not sure they were as good as the Steen's for me, but they were really nice.
The thing is there are speakers for everyone. We all hear differently. It also depends on who you listen with and how much you listen to them. You have to trust your own ears and now what any of us say.
I have noticed that many folks stay true to one brand and others keep chasing nirvana. I notice many who do the chasing are always posting about how great their gear is. If it is, then why are they constantly switching out? When you read their posts, they aren't happy and keep chasing their tails. I know when I've made changes, it's after many satisfied years or recently from the Vandersteen Treo to the Quatro as that was my plan as I saved the money to upgrade into that league. I still auditioned everything I could and felt very comfortable in my purchase. As I continue to hear other gear, I'm still very very satisfied with what I have.
Many are like I am in that they do as much homework as possible and don't listen to what dealers or manufacturer's tell us during our listening sessions. Keep us posted and let's hope the thread get's back on track.
Not sure if many would think its too much of an upgrade, but you may want to give a listen to the Focal Sopra 2. Also 2nd the Sasha 2 and the Magico S5.
There are a ton of good options for everyone's tastes in audio right now. More than at any time I bet. It's really interesting once you get away from dealers commercials interrupting threads is that folks want to interact with owners of other products or just want validation of what they know or have just purchased.
There is a reason that many owners stay within their own lines or the opposite happens with folks always buying and selling and chasing their tails (often times), or just wanting a totally different sound. Some are into their gear and some into the music. The rest are into their gear for sure, but also are in search of the best recreation of 'real music'.
What is real music? Do these folks go to live events and try to get that at home? Do they NOT go to live events and the only reference they have is what a dealer, friend or internet tells them? A great speaker is a great speaker. I always hear folks say that a speaker does rock better because it moves more air. Some say that the intimacy of a vocal group is best on say Harbeth or some other mid centric speaker.
I honestly say that's all BS. I really do. I understand that some want to move more air and add subs, because their speaker can't move what they need in their room (or just simply want). Fully understand and of course respect that. The more I go listen now days, the more I realize that there are many good speakers. There arelly are. I listen to Vandersteen adn love them, but I could be happy with most any speaker over 20k for the most part I think. I'd have to overlook the shrill highs that so many top speakers have, but they do so much right. I'd get used to the coherency thing or the smearing that so many have as they do other things well or may just be fun to listen to. I want it all though and that's why I am so careful of my system matching as well as my own room. I hear so much about DSP and have heard it on speakers, preamps and stand alone devices. I"m talking state of the art gear and expensive stuff, so it's not crap for what it is. I am still not a big fan. I now what I hear and for ME, it dont' think it's near where is needs to be for high end. Will it get there? Maybe or maybe not. Hey, I have a high end DAC as have heard most of the upper crust DAC's in more than a few systems as well as in my own as I've had some sent my way at times. They still aren't analog. They just aren't and I'm sad since I had to sell my analog rig recently as I can't get up every 25 minutes to flip and clean albums. Too demanding for my MS and it has been for years, but I waited to sell (still need to sell my albums, lol.....maybe, lol).
There are many who say that digital is as good or some even may say better, but there's a reason even young kids are buying tables and albums. Newer technologies have allowed makers to produce the best sounding analog gear we've ever seen. Same with speakers. Figuring out ways to use some exotic materials in cabinets, cones and drivers along with components in crossovers (including wire and solder or cold welds) have given us some tremendous speakers. We all have personal favorites. For me, any dealer lacks credibility, unless you are close friends and they are honest. Some really are trying to help, but they are still in business and need to feed their families as well as those who work for them.
My friends and I talk about this all the time. We all have favorite posters and folks we've met from the boards who we trust. We know how they are different in their tastes than us and are able to read their thoughts on gear and translate if you will to how we'd hear something. It's respecting what others hear and fall in love with. As much as I love Vandersteen's with the gear I've put it with in my room, it's not for everyone. As much as you guys love Wilson's or Magico's or B&W's or Dynaudio or ........ the same goes for you too. This is why we can fight, disagree or whatever on a board, but folks really need to go listen. The problem we have is that you can't audition most of the gear in many parts of the country. I"m blessed to live near a two hour drive where I can audition anything I want for the most part. Wish others could too.
OP, hope you aren't scared off by what became of your thread as I felt it was a normal starting thread until the hijack. What have you done? Have you auditioned anything yet? Did you get a new set of Wilson's or something else?
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