Since Dertonearm did this to me once, when I erroneously attributed the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison" to Shakespeare, I will now point out that Shakespeare is the oft-cited source for the quote "love is blind" (from The Merchant of Venice). This is not to say that a Dutch person did not also say it. And at perfect speed so as not to alter pitch.
Turntable speed accuracy
There is another thread (about the NVS table) which has a subordinate discussion about turntable speed accuracy and different methods of checking. Some suggest using the Timeline laser, others use a strobe disk.
I assume everyone agrees that speed accuracy is of utmost importance. What is the best way to verify results? What is the most speed-accurate drive method? And is speed accuracy really the most important consideration for proper turntable design or are there some compromises with certain drive types that make others still viable?
I assume everyone agrees that speed accuracy is of utmost importance. What is the best way to verify results? What is the most speed-accurate drive method? And is speed accuracy really the most important consideration for proper turntable design or are there some compromises with certain drive types that make others still viable?
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Dear Daniel, While Marx is your countryman I refuse to believe that my German friends are 'petty bourgeous'. On the contrary you are all the world citezens with some peculiar hobby. However 'love makes blind' is a Dutch proverb. Not easy to choose among the social rules between so many countries btw. Regards, |
Hmm. Something not mentioned so far with regards to speed stability is soundstage. Anyone who has heard a good tape machine knows what I mean. When the 'table speeds up and slows down the skating forces on any radial tracking arm will change. This in turn places forces upon the stylus. In effect, the lateral tracking force of the stylus oscillates. IOW we hear the speed variation as an instability in the soundstage. Tape is immune to this sort of thing. So are straight tracking arms. When the machine is really good at speed stability, and if you have a concentric LP(!) then the soundstage will match that of tape. When the total speed is off, sometimes I hear it due to the pitch, other times I hear it due to the timing. Musicians play things in certain keys and tempos for a reason. With some pieces a speed error is of no consequence and with others it means the heart and soul of the piece is not transmitted to the listener... |
Dear Nandric, focussing the eye on the laser spot frees the mind to set for a kind of "zen meditation" and allows the music to flow directly into the heart and soul of man .... See - it always depends how you use things ..;-) ..... but I admit being part of the decadent bourgeous inclination of mankind. After all it took us (mankind) a long way to get here... Cheers, D. |
Ct, Altho I am currently a partisan of direct- and idler-drive turntables, I would nevertheless take those data you quoted (0% speed deviation at 5 kg.cm) with a grain of salt. The Technics uses a servo to keep speed stable, but a servo is not perfect in terms of avoiding "micro" changes in speed that it then has to correct for. So "average speed" may indeed not vary, but the devil is in those corrective measures mediated by the servo to keep the speed stable. The jury is out as to whether we can hear that happening. Some claim that they can. BD turntables pose entirely different problems as regards speed stability at the micro level. Some of us can hear that, too. Pick your poison. kg.cm (kilogram X cm) must be a unit of Work or Energy. Work is defined as Force (F) acting through a distance (s); W = F(s). Kilogram is formally a unit of mass, but by convention we also refer to it as a unit of weight. Weight is mass X acceleration due to gravity (W = m(g)). The analogy to F = ma is obvious. So "weight" is actually an expression of force. That's what they taught me in college. It's a bit confusing, but I think that kg.cm is a unit of Work. (I've just been reading a book about how Einstein interpreted Newton, so I have been thinking about this stuff.) |
Syntax, you and a few other here own and get to listen to some very nice toys. When I stop learning this vinyl stuff will no longer be a hobby for me. FWIW - if anyone wants to know if I can carry a tune please email me - I will send back my phone number. You can call me and I will sing you a song (unplugged). :^) |
15 years ago I owned a DD Dual Turntable. Made in Germany, the best which was available at that time. I feel a bit guilty now when I read this thread, because I throw it away at the junk yard after listening to something serious. At the moment this is used for Speed control . But I am always ready to learn, in a few days I have the chance to listen to a rock port Sirius (DD) and a better Seiki (Belt) in the same System. The Rockport is a bit more than the accepted 300$ for a good Drive here, but nevertheless it is worth a listen... |
Revision - apologies - my question about "BD" data should be revised to Belt Drive, String Drive, Thread Drive, VHS Tape Drive, Beta Tape drive, Dental Floss Drive, ... fill in the next one. ... and is open to anyone to respond if you have any real info. Whatever turns you on as long as you are having fun and have a sense of humor. When I go to listen to a TT or any audio system I ask the owner to sing me one minute of their favourite song. Its amazing how many really $$$ systems have owners that can not carry a tune. Well IMO - this thread is about a TT platter/motor being able to do its part in carrying a tune - its the foundation half. The other half is the tonearm/cartridge. A "really" good tonearm will make a cheap cartridge sound really good. Again IMO. Cheers |
Dear Raul - $500 for a properly functioning SP-10MKII (with PS) ? I will be sure to contact you the next time I buy one. For the SP10MKII the following public data is published. Speed fluctuation by load changes: 0% within 5kg-cm. Can someone technical explain to me what "5kg - cm" really means in laymans terms. Can I really put that much weight in that area and it will stay accurate ? D, Syntax, Thuchan - Did or do any current BD TT manufactures publish accuracy values ? I would think that for someone interested in a high end platter/motor setup these types of figures attract the customer. Like when buying a car. 0 - 100km in 4.5 seconds. :^) As a customer without ever hearing it - the published numbers are what got me curious in the first place about an SP10mkII. Cheers |
Hiho, According to me this is a Brinkmann TT . Probable made for Burmester himself because of the colour. However I have no idea why Burmester is so fond of white colour. I also have no idea why Dertonarm posted such a criptic answer because he must be familiar with this TT. Halcro, I have no intention at all to burn holes anywhere near my Kuzma. BTW I start my Kuzma manualy in such a way that the speed is perfect from the first groove on. The effect is less wear for the stylus as well for the motors (there are two in my Kuzma,you know ). Regards, |
Syntax: In the other side why so that big deal with the thread when for so many years it was and is used. My Acoustic Signature TTs only accept thread drive and in my RX5000 I only use thread and hundreds of TTs out there are using thread for drive. Maybe the thread drive is the new toy for you and as a rockie in that regards you are excited , come down you have to learn to much about. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Halcro - you are being disingenuous. The Fat Bob has a stretchy elastic band for a belt and furthermore the drive from the belt is close to the bearing. By not driving the circumference of the platter a lot of purchase from the puny motor is being thrown away. I think you will find this is a classic German pisstake of the Harley Motorcycle, after which it was named, and which you are very lucky if you make it round a decent corner. |
Dear Nicola, You disappoint me. I thought you were such a thorough compatriot who lets nothing escape him and now I discover that you did not even 'click' on the video Link I previously attached for the Timeline? In it, you would have seen.......about half way through the video......where he drops the cartridge on the record and immediately.....the speed decreases? And this is only the beginning of the record. Not a heavily modulated passage? Can you imagine what happens with a really heavily modulated passage? And that turntable in the video has a very heavy platter. So here once again.....for your benefit Nicola....I attach the Timeline video for you to study. Please don't disappoint me :-) TIMELINE |
Nice shot Hiho, Never seen that turntable before? Intrigued by the armpod cylinder. Seems like it may revolve for different length arms and has multi-way fixing options? For the record Raul.....the Victor TT-81 was $300.00 but I doubt that it was able to 'burn' a hole in the wall like the TT-101 which cost the princely sum of $1500.00..........the best money spent on my system other than my speakers :^) |
I found a random picture of a turntable online that looks like the kind of thread drive turntable Dertonarm would make. :) Any idea who made that? _______ |
Dear Syntax: Well Halcro has a wider black hole in the wall, right behind the TT. This TT is a DD 400.00 Victor TT. So not big deal what you are showing against the humble Victor or my Denon one. It is not here at speed accuracy/stability where belongs the " secret " for a top quality level that you till today can't even imagine could exist. Have fun. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Speed Accuracy done right at Monterrey / California via thread Drive. We have a small black hole in the wall, right behind the turntable. We guess it is a Laser burned one :-) The Return of The Jedi 5....Kings at work |
A friend of mine has progressed through a series of decent tts over the past few years. He started by adding a Teres rim drive to his VPI Scout (big difference, even greater than the VPI rim drive), then through a series of DD tables from Technics, Kenwood, and Luxman. More recently he got a Micro Seiki belt drive (not sure of the model but it was not the low end). Speed was not accurate and the MS motor could not be adjusted/repaired to run the proper speed. On an inspiration he adapted the Teres more with a proper sized pulley (and reversed the rotation direction) to drive the heavy MS platter via a string drive. This is a person who has decades of experience in this hobby and he believes he now has the best tt set up he ever owned. I have not heard every iteration he experimented with but will say with everything from a full symphony crescendo to a sustained piano chord it provides beautiful and believable playback. |
Davide256, everything you write is so obvious and logical, yet wrong as regards points one and two. Point 3 does count for a lot too, I grant you. People who don't like direct drive generally make the same point you have made re "isolation". Usually such persons do not own and have not owned a direct drive turntable. However, if you examine the workings of the best examples, you will see that the platter is part of the motor. Thus "isolation" is really a function of the quality of the bearing, which is an issue of equal significance for BD turntables as well. |
Davide 256, 'the average stylus pressure is 1.5 gm.,etc.' I was always wondering about this 'drag issue' more in particular because of the 'vulnerable' stylus cantilever combo. But as a non-technical guy I was not brave enough to say something although I asked the question how this 'vulnerable thing' can cause such problems? Well I was dismissed but not convinced. I still have this 'picture' of an elephant (the platter) and the mouse (the stylus) in my mind. BTW 'my elephant' is 8 kgr. Regards, |
1) speed accuracy to the point where its musically relevant has been pretty much solved in any TT costing over $300 2) the average stylus pressure is 1.5 gm. The drag of this on a rotating platter assembly of 2000 gms is negligible; the mass equivalent of a tricycle towed behind a truck 3) vibration isolation/damping is what counts...horizontal vibration in the plane of the stylus vibration will suck transients, detail and bass out of your playback Direct drives are very difficult to isolate vs belt drives |
I suggested him to try driving the Teres platter with a Technics SL-M3 direct-drive turntable via VHS tape.Sounds like an interesting idea, he gets the speed lock of the DD plus the high mass and resonance sinking of the Teres platter, plinth and bearing. He might get better results with the drive tape we developed. Compared with VHS tape it's less slippery, less elastic and much more resistant to stretching or misforming in any direction. Far better performeer than VHS tape on our TT. Check out this thread. |
Dougdeacon: "Implementation, implementation, implementation. :)"I love it when I see people doing experiment like that. My friend owns one of the earliest version of Teres turntable before it went commercial. His motor failed couple years ago so I sent him a Papst motor salvaged from the Empire 208 with pulley diameter slightly tweaked to get accurate speed. It worked well and liked the sound and used it for a more than a year. I suggested him to try driving the Teres platter with a Technics SL-M3 direct-drive turntable via VHS tape. After some tweaks he liked it even better than the Empire that it's quieter and "overall sound wise, image is focused and sharp, more forceful with muscle, very nice." Of course, the downside is that the whole set up takes up much bigger space. Yes, it is indeed quite easy to tell the difference when you only change the drive system. People should try something like this with a belt drive table just to get an idea how much the sound can change with a different motor. It's all reversible so it's harmless. Try it. You might like it. :-) _______ |
what do you mean with this? that Paul and you listened to two TTs bis a bis with similar tonearm/cartridges at the same sessions/comparisons?Fair question, Raul. One TT, one tonearm, one cartridge, everything identical except the drive systems. We were comparing our tweaked BD to the (then new) Teres rim drive. Switching from one drive to the other took < 30 seconds so it was easy to compare, far easier than comparing cartridges or tonearms. Result: we kept our BD. FWIW, most who made the same comparison on their tables preferred the rim drive. However, those people weren't using our belt tweak because we hadn't published it yet, so their BD wasn't performing like ours. The two people to whom I provided tweaked belts also preferred the BD to the rim drive. Implementation, implementation, implementation. :) *** Tdaudio, The main problem turned out to be intermittent failures in the motor brushes. Very difficult to diagnose. After months of experimentation/verification, Teres found that gold brushes eliminated the problem and performed for the long haul. Ours is still working fine, quite a few years on. Secondarily, Teres tightened the correction threshhold of the motor controller by one order of magnitude. Our platter speed now drifts from 33.33 (45) rpm just 10% as much as it used to before the controller alters voltage to the (DC) motor. This improvement was visible with a good strobe if you watched for some time, but not really audible to me. One would need absolute pitch sensitivity to hear it. |
Dear Dougdeacon: ++++ " concluding that idler wheel/rim drive designs are inherently better than BD's would be going too far. We've had such a design in our system, made by Teres, and it was audibly inferior to our carefully worked out BD. Implementation is always critical and individual cases may trump general rules. " +++++ what do you mean with this? that Paul and you listened to two TTs bis a bis with similar tonearm/cartridges at the same sessions/comparisons? I know both of you and I have no doubt on what you posted it is only for I can understand how that comparison was made. In the other side, implementation as you said is critical on any audio device design or on tests as the one you mentioned. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Frogman: We have to take care about. Unfortunately no one of us have control over the recording proccess where happen " terrible " things that " disturb " ( for say the least ) not only what you are pointed out but the " original " essence of the music. We can't restore what already were degraded on that recording proccess but at least we can take care that that degradation be the lowest one and certainly the overall TT speed subject is vita. As I posted: +++++++++ A TT exist because the LP needs to spin for we can listen it and has to spin always at 33.1/3rpm or 45rpm : period. " +++++ NO excuses here. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Peter, Sorry for the hyperbole. Our own TT's speed stability did go through two periods where it drove us nuts. We heard the first problem yet no commercial strobe showed it. Paul built a custom, higher resolution strobe and we captured many hours of data to demonstrate the problem to Teres. The data helped Teres identify a problem in their motors but it took them three months of testing and measurement to confirm that the redesign/rebuild actually fixed the problem. The other problem was subtler and was addressed by our own experimentation with better belt materials and implementations. That Aries was a touch soft on transients but much better than most BD's we've heard. In our experience many (mostly less costly) BD's are unlistenably bad due mostly to poor belt materials, as others have said. OTOH, concluding that idler wheel/rim drive designs are inherently better than BD's would be going too far. We've had such a design in our system, made by Teres, and it was audibly inferior to our carefully worked out BD. Implementation is always critical and individual cases may trump general rules. |
How can correct turntable speed as well as excellent speed stability possibly NOT matter and be of the utmost importance? Rhythm and time is where the heart and soul of music lies. Any technical considerations that may have an effect on these are of the utmost importance. I am constantly perplexed by how often audiophiles agonize about minute changes in areas that affect the tonal/timbral characteristics of their audio systems, but are willing to forgive much larger deviations from truth in the area of time and rhythm. I hope we can agree that our audio systems exist to be at the service of the music. Musicians, not audio systems, make music; and musicians give a great deal of importance to performance considerations that relate to the perceived effects of correct playback speed and speed stability. The changes in pitch as they relate to performance standards are more subtle than what is generally discussed in relation to technical accuracy in turntable systems. These considerations are not arbitrary, but relate to the emotional impact that tuning has on the music. This is not only the players' consideration, but sometimes also the composer's intent. It is well documented that many composers chose to compose in a particular key because of the emotional effect of one key versus another. Likewise, orchestras or individual players will often tune their instruments to achieve a particular sound and it's resulting emotional effect. If we are going to worry about the effects things like slightly raising or lowering VTA, why dismiss the effect of these other considerations when these relate much more to the core of the music? Speed stability is even more important as it relates to these considerations. Excellent comments have been made above about the importance of these. There is no question that extremely subtle deviations from absolute pitch stability are quite audible. As has been pointed out, even the very best belt drive tables suffer from these distortions. What is really insidious is the effect that these distortions have on the emotional impact of the music, and the ability of the music to engage the listener. As this relates to musicians' performance standards, I would like to point out that the effects from the absence of absolutely stable playback speed on the music is not nearly as subtle as the considerations that musicians give to absolutely stable and accurate time and rhythm during a performance; these can be the effect of anything from simply the mediocre sense of rhythm on the part of a particular musician, to wether a musician had too much coffee that morning (I kid not). If we can agree that these things matter during a performance, how can similar effects not matter a great deal during playback? |
Most turntable owners believe, they get a Product which is done right, more or less perfect for the money and all they have to do as next step to think about the ultimate technical solution (independent from price). This is another common wrong way in audiophile existence. When we go back to the basics, lets think about the belt. Most of them are so horrible from quality and specs, it is hard to believe. Basis did a better work but most belts I tried produced so much drift, that any discussion about following Design features were wasted time. Even with a heavy platter like shown in the picture showed me results, which were amazing ( really depressing what some 'manufacturers' offer us as 'High End'. Belt comparisons.. These comparisons are even more depressing with light Platters.... The Audiophile gets what he deserves. Marketing and Fangroups can replace a lot today ....anyway...fun counts. Tomorrow is another day to transform a big orchestra in a lifelike presentation into a owners home who did a lot of things right.... |
I agree with Dertonarm on this subject. DD turntables vary due to their designs and construction. Some are very accurate. String drives can indeed be very accurate, as long as the string is fresh. Idler drives, the one I know a little about, have an inherent tracking error of around one part per million, depending on the footprint of the idler wheel itself. Belt drives are not so inherently accurate as the others, although advances have been made to alleviate belt creep through various workarounds and, of course, the recent use of tape. So, a controller should be pretty accurate, but exactly how much? I believe one part per million accuracy is reasonable, but if we do that, we can easily substitute a standard clock with an OCXO (oven controlled quartz oscillator) with GPS referencing, which can improve the accuracy of a properly designed controller to around one part per trillion, or better. Can anyone hear the difference with such a controller connected to a turntable that is only capable of one part per million accuracy due to mechanical constraints? Certainly, the math doesn't warrant the extra effort, but at least all bases are covered. Would such an accurate controller be warranted with a proper string driven table? I don't know, but virtually anyone can hear a measurable difference with a good controller. That much I do know. If you have the opportunity to compare a turntable without a controller to the same setup, but with a good controller attached, listen for little parts of music that we never typically use as a guide, like small sounds from background reed instruments. You might be surprised. Win . |
Dear Halcro, just a nice multi-way horn system based set-up in the beautiful Monterey Bay area. A friend of ours we are visiting to fine-tune the system. Besides that it is leisure, wine ( some great vintages ..) and song (music ... good music). Followed next week by another great time in southern Texas. Greetz, D. |
D, welcome to the left coast. if you get up here toward Seattle please stop by. i too have preference for DD and idler, and while i have no experience with thread/high inertia i defer to your perspective about it. i think that speed is like noise floor; until you hear your system with lower noise, you don't realize what you were missing. until you hear your records with better speed you don't know what you are missing. and i mean your records in your system. as one climbs the ladder of performance this type thing becomes a bigger and bigger issue. |
4 German Ears for speed Tuning at Monterey Bay, California (Kuzma XL, Airline & Seiki 5000 + HS-80 Inertia unit, Thread Drive, Lyra Olympos, 2xFR-66s...) Winner is ... ...the Owner. |
Greetings from Monterey Bay. Just watching a spinning Micro Seiki 5000 with HS-80 inertia unit and a Sutherland Timeline which' laser point is so stable, it almost burns a tiny hole in the wall. I do agree that speed accuracy is a conditio sine qua non with any serious turntable worth feeding a really good system. There is indeed no excuse. I too agree that it is quite a task for most any belt driven turntable. It is however rather easy for most any thread driven high inertia turntable as well as for most every dd or idler wheel drive. The elastic nature of most any belt - as well as string and tape - however makes it very difficult for mot belt drive tables. Start measuring the homogenity of a given belt supplied with a bd turntable. I mean measuring the mechanical quality of the belt. Ripple and width/diameter constancy. A very good reference here are the precision belts supplied by Basis Audio. Belt driven turntables do need more attention here than the other 3 drive principles. Greetings from beautiful california coast, D. |
Dear friends: I'm really surprised on almost all your answers on the overall subject. Why surprised?, if there is true that some of us has no perfect pitch and can't detect " minute/tiny " speed deviations it is true too that other persons are way better in this regard and very sensitive about. But, why that " no perfect pitch " or " I can't hear that minute deviations " or even " I don't care what I can't hear " where all these kind of opiniuons are only excuses to " protect " the TT already owned. I'm not a designer of TT but if someday I take that road my very first and main target will be: no excuse, " perfect pitch " design: period. If the customers can or can not detect it is does not matters, if during the recording proccess ( including those " great " R2R units. ) does not existed that " perfect pitch " it does not matters either even if the customers do not cares about IMHO any TT designer must look for that " perfect pitch " even absolute speed. Dear audiophiles, please don't take it away the TT designers responsability. A TT exist because the LP needs to spin for we can listen and has to spin always at 331/3rpm or 45rpm: period. We as a customers IMHO have to ask for excellence design level and not where almost everyone belongs: mediocrity/average level like the excuses that we don't have perfect pitch or that the electrical supply at home is non-adequate or that today is alittle " cold ". How our hobby could improve when we are not asking for " more " for excellence but given reasons for the audio device designers does not cares about or at least does not cares enough about. Halcro experiences with his Victor DD is not alone but several of us already experienced the same with some one of those DD vintage TT samples: exist a difference a difference that any one could hear. Of course that if I own one of those BD dinosaur/mammoth we " accept " those minute/tiny speed deviations with no other explanation that " I can't hear " even if the timeline put in evidence the problem in our BD units. Years ago and before the Timeline was in the market I posted several times that with heavy mass BD TT did not exist speed deviations due to stylus friction. Not easy to detect it but this fact does not means that I ask to TT designers : perfect pitch. Our analog hobby is maybe the most imperfect reproduction medium where IMHO we have to take care in any single and " simple " stage where the cartridge signal must pass and where always suffer a degradation. As lower degradation on each one of those steps/links the cartridge signal suffer as better will be the sound that comes from our speakers and the higher the music enjoyment. TT perfect pitch is one of those steps/links that degrade the cartridge signal even if we can't detect it or if " we don't care ". As Teres pointed out: there is land for improvement about TT speed stability. In this specific regard the DD experiences on many of us already showed that are a head to the BD ones. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Thanks Doug. I have heard three turntables with you and your partner and none drove Paul out of the room screaming. I guess that means the two Teres turntables and the VPI Aries we all listened to together had absolutely no speed variations. I believe two were tape drive and one was a belt drive. A red car is more likely to be seen in a snow storm than is a white car, and if either has four wheel drive, it is less likely to get stuck. |
What is the best way to verify results?It depends on what results you're trying to verify. With regard to general speed accuracy, a good strobe like the KAB or the Timeline both work well. With regard to stylus drag or other very short-term transient events, my ears are far more sensitive than such tools, which lack a sampling rate capable of measuring variations which occur over mere nano-seconds. YMMV. What is the most speed-accurate drive method?A car on cruise control, which will transport you to the venue of your choice to hear real music. All TT drive methods are compromised, each in its own ways, so there's no answer to this overly simplified question. And is speed accuracy really the most important consideration for proper turntable design or are there some compromises with certain drive types that make others still viable?Whaaat? That's like asking if a red car is best or should we shovel snow or plow it. ;) 1. Is speed accuracy really the most important consideration for proper TT design? It depends on the sensibilities of the listener. Some posters on this thread and very many TT designers seem oblivious to speed variations that drive me up the wall. I in turn am only just able to hear speed variations that drive my partner out of the room, screaming. OTOH, neither of us has absolute pitch to the extent necessary to identify a TT that's running 1% fast or slow but effectively resists stylus drag, yet my mother's absolute pitch can. What's important depends on who's listening. 2. Are there some compromises with certain drive types that make others still viable? There are compromises with all drive types. Which ones are viable depends on the effects they have and how audible those effects are to you. Nothing about one design makes any other design more or less viable. Independent phenomena must be judged on their own merits. |
Don, I think you underestimate the situation. "Speed variation "is" noticeable on classical piano "IF" you have played a piano, but typically the audience could care less. " I cannot play piano, or any other instrument, or read music. I'm certain I do not possess perfect pitch. But when I listen to piano recordings I am quickly aware if the sound becomes either sour or cartoonish. That tells me something slowed down or sped up. It could be my turntable, it could be the power line, it could be someplace in the recording chain. But it is not difficult to hear when a recording does not sound like a live instrument. (And yes I understand there are multiple other factors in the "sounds live" experience.) |
