Frank,
if the herbies rings are so great, do you think it would be even better with the ARC rings on top of them? Thx
Allan
if the herbies rings are so great, do you think it would be even better with the ARC rings on top of them? Thx
Allan
Tube dampeners on ARC gear ... FREE TWEAK
Here's a cheap (free) tweak for owners of ARC gear using the black tube dampeners. If you move both dampeners as far up toward the top of the tube as possible without having the top one fall off, taking care that both dampeners are solidly touching each other, you will get better dynamics, bass, mids, highs and a lower noise floor. Try it ... you'll like it.
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Hi, Gary ... Such a nice report. :-) Its really something when you consider just how much smear is produced by those micro vibrations and lack of solid connections in our systems. Something not realized until the offending situations are removed from the system. There are tons of these tweaks available that really make a difference. You might want to try the SR HFT's. I can vouch for their effectiveness. Way beyond what you'd expect: http://highend-electronics.com/products/sr-hft-high-frequency-transformer After I complete my system with the Herbie's tube dampeners, I'm going to try the SR PHT's on my cartridge. I've read some fantastic reviews on them too: http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-pht-phono-transducer OP |
These threads have been so informative and helpful, my system just continues to improve. Not long ago I tried the black fuse in my power amp, then the pre/pro and phono stage. I was surprised that a simple fuse could make such a difference. Recently I decided to buy a Furutech GTX-D Rhodium outlet and installed it in the outlet that my pre/pro and phono stage are plugged into, all I can say is WOW what a difference! Since it replaced a Gaofei Red Copper Rhodium plated outlet I wasn't expecting much, boy was I wrong. Moved the Gaofei Rhodium to the dedicated circuit/outlet for my power amp, just last night (late last night) and another big change. Now to the main reason for this post, Herbie's tube dampers. I have a Fosgate Signature Phono stage that I have spent years trying to get "right" now I realize that is a subjective statement but I know what I like and the Fosgate has always been to dark for my taste. Tubes, Power cords, Black fuse, and the Furutech outlet have all combined for huge gains in my analog enjoyment....BUT just yesterday I installed six Herbie's UltraSonic SS dampers on the six gain tubes, then one UltraSonic RX on the rectifier tube. Wow to say I am impressed is an understatement, I finally fell that my Fosgate is sounding like it should. Now I know that more time listening is required and also not saying this is all I will do, but for possibly the first time ever I turned off my system after listening to several albums feeling that my analog sounded about the way it should. Thanks for the Herbie tip, I had been contemplating trying tube dampers but didn't know what to try. Anyone thinking about trying these, stop thinking and just do it. I can't imagine you wouldn't find them an improvement, besides your money back if your not satisfied! Regards, Gary |
The Furman Elite 15 PFI. The difference is huge. But then it should be. The Furman Elite 15 PFI retails for around $700. The Shunyata Triton retailed for $5000. I will also say that the Shunyata Triton has much better isolation and noise reduction. I have had problems with compact fluorescent bulbs in another room causing hum in my preamp. The Furman did nothing to help the situation and I think may have been the cause. I had a cheap Adcom ace for a while which did not do this and the Shunyata Triton does not have this problem. As a matter of fact it never happened before I got the Furman. |
folkfreak ... It looks like Marigo has improved upon the Clear Transformatin Mat. http://marigoaudio.com/ultima-signature-mat/ Interesting stuff. |
If you are checking out CD mats I can strongly recommend the Marigo Audio Clear Transformation Mat -- I use it all the time in my DCS stack and can clearly hear the difference in terms of unifying the recording into a coherent whole, even the orientation of the mat is readily audible, and it is very slim so works with drawer type loaders -- costs a bit more than Herbie's but has a $ back guarantee I believe I've ordered a full set of Herbie's HAL-O III dampers for my power amps (went with the heavier duty ones given the het in the amps, plus rumor is they sound better 😀 than the UltraSonic Rx) -- will report back in due course |
I just got the 8 Herbie's tube dampers the other day. I put 4 on the signal tubes in my CD7 and 4 on the signal tubes in my Ref 5se. I put them all on at he same time. So far I do hear a difference between the Herbie's and the ARC ones. The soundstage seems a bit bigger and more well defined, a bit more detailed. The bass also seems crisper. But I just got them the other day. So I have not had a chance to spend a lot of time listening with them in the system yet. CD mats definitely work without a problem in the CD7. I have not tried the Herbie's mat. I have an old Marigo Labs Signature mat that I have had for a number of years. The Herbie's mat is cheap enough, I may order one when I order more tube dampers. The biggest improvement I have made in my system. Audio Research Ref 5se, Ref CD7 and Ref 110. Was replacing my Furman power conditioner with a Shunyata Triton and Alpha HC power cable I bought here on Audiogon. It was like someone took a blanket off the speakers. The sound did not change, but it was richer, more focused. The Triton seems to emphasize all the best attributes of the Ref 5se. It was just amazing. Every time I make a change I don't see how my system could get any better. To be honest it is getting hard to compare anything anymore. I end up just getting lost in the music, |
lostbears ... I have the CD7-se. How was the improvement with the Herbie's dampeners? Also, have you considered using Herbie's "Black Hole" CD mat? It has rave reviews. I contacted Herbie via Email and he says it works well with our top loading players. Its on my bucket list ... to do after all tubes in the system has been outfitted with the Herbie dampeners. OP |
^^^ folkfreak ... Thanks for the quick response. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. I suspected that the power tubes would be a significant improvement ... but twice as good? ... Great, I'll save them for last. I suppose the increased glass/size of the power tubes is what makes the difference over the signal tubes. Just changing the dampeners on the signal tubes in my REF-3 has made a world of difference. I can only imagine what your REF-40 and your Phono 2SE sounds like. It has to be wonderful. I just love my ARC gear. I have an ARC Classic 60 that is used as a spare. It used to be my main amp. It doesn't have a removable power cord, no mods at all even. I had it completely gone through by the local tech this year. I used it when I was between the REF-75 and the REF-75se. Gotta say ... its warmer sounding and not as accurate as the latest REF gear, but man 'o man ... it just melts your heart. Looking forward to more of your reports on the tube dampeners. Take care ... OP |
Oregonpapa -- yes I did start with them just on the signal tubes then ordered more for the power supply -- while having them on the signal tubes is good having them on the power supply as well is more than twice as good -- now note that my PS is not as well isolated as my control box (the ARC Ref40 is a two box set up) -- the latter sits on Marigo footers on a custom shelf while the PSU is just on the stock footers isolated by some constrained layer damping pads. Nevertheless I wholeheartedly recommend getting the dampers for the power supply tubes as well |
^^^ Folkfreak ... I'm not the person to thank for the Herbie's recommendation, that's for sure. I do have a question for you though: Did you try the dampeners just on the signal tubes before adding them to the power supply tubes? Reason I ask is, I was wondering how effective the Herbie's dampeners were on the power tubes in addition to the signal tubes. By the way, I'm having fun with my friend Robert in that I haven't told him about the Herbie's dampeners in the preamp. He's been bringing over some of his "special stash" of outstanding sounding LP's and he just keeps saying that he knew they were good, just not THAT good. Hee, hee ... I love a mystery. I'll spring it on him when the system is completed with the Herbie dampeners. One of the records Robert brought over the other night included a bongo player in the right/rear of the sound stage. I've got to say, those bongos were right there in the room in all of their natural sounding glory. It was so real, we just about fell off of our chairs. An incredible recording indeed ... but who knew? OP |
Just wanted to add a wholehearted endorsement of the Herbie's tube dampers. I've now installed these on all tubes (signal and power supply) on my ARC Ref40 and Phono 2SE -- all I can say is wow! Compared with the original rubber rings the difference is night and day, a whole layer of distortion disappears. Vocal tracks that I had written off as etched or edgy are now totally clear and a wealth of high end detail comes through that had been masked before. This is particularly apparent on leading edges of percussion making it much easier to distinguish between different types of cymbals At first blush it may seem as if some of the "impact" is diminished but I put this down to removal of a sort of echo around major dynamic edges Anyway wholeheartedly recommended and thanks for the tip oregonpapa -- now to get more for my power amps |
bdb24 ... Before I went to bed last night, I scored this on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262358885962 I figured for $3.10 and free shipping how could I go wrong. Yep, like I need another recording. :-) Frank |
^^^ bdb24 ... My friend Warren and I took advantage of those Harmonia Mundi parking lot sales many times. Their location was about 45 minutes from my place going south down the coast highway. If I remember correctly, they sold the LP's for five buck apiece. No CD's of course because they didn't exist at that time. As a result, I have a lot of HM Vinyl. Then, years later, I happened to stop by a record store in Burbank just on a whim. Someone had traded in a ton of HM CD's a couple of days before I got there. They were asking $2.99 each. I was pretty flush at the time, so I bought almost all of them. There were a few dogs in the bunch, so I traded them in and kept the rest. I still have them in the collection. I actually had a Harmonia Mundi listening session last night. It was all CD's as I didn't feel like changing records. The debate wore me out. *lol*. The new Herbie's tube dampeners are so effective that every HM CD I played took on a new lease on life. Quite amazing actually considering that I only changed out the dampeners on the five tubes in the preamp. I'm getting so much more inner detail and textural overtones from instruments now ... and that's without subtracting anything except distortion. The improved detail isn't etched or bright in any way, just more musical and closer to real. When I get around to replacing the dampeners in the CD player, that's six more. What's that going to do? Zowie! Prior to getting into the SR Black fuses, the SR HFT's, and now the Herbie's tube dampeners over the past year, I only listened to CD's as a convenience. With these tweaks in place, I've found that I'm listening to CD's probably 80% of the time now. So many of the red-book CD's have magic in those bits. Its a lot like going from an entry level cartridge, say like a $49 dollar Grado, to one of the better Audio Technica cartridges and then discovering how much information is hidden deep inside those grooves on Mono records. A revelation, really Frank |
Oh man Frank, Harmonia Mundi is SUCH a great label! Repertoire right up my alley, performed so well and in those ancient rooms, and in great recorded sound. You’re right, you can really hear the room the recording was made in, something I absolutely love. To hear those "period" instruments (both antiques and modern reproductions) in those rooms, the type the music was written to be heard in, performed in period "correct" style (without the Romantic era vibrato that was not employed in the Baroque era), really adds to the full appreciation of the music and it’s performance. What more could one ask for! In the 90’s the U.S. headquarters of HM in Westwood/West L.A. had parking lot sales every few months, offering discontinued LP’s and CD’s for $5 apiece. I was there every time. The cream of my music library! |
Allan ... How much better? As I convert over to the Herbie's dampeners, I would be more than happy to send you the ARC dampening rings for free. *lol* And by the way, I'm converting over with one component at a time just as I did with the SR Black fuses. Maybe one per month. Its like spreading out the "fixes" over time. Gotta say, I was listening again this morning, this time to a Harmonia Mundi compilation of various cuts from a variety of their albums. This is another CD that I've heard a hundred times at least. Its one of my reference recordings that I go to each time I make an improvement to the system. This morning, it was like starting anew, like I've never heard it before. The musicians on the Harmonia Mundi recordings use a lot of ancient original instruments, playing music from the 1500's and 1600's. A lot of what they do is recorded in old stone churches in Europe. Man 'O Man ... its really something when you can sense the stone and the age of the venue. And those instruments take on a whole different meaning as well. With the tweaks I've introduced to the system over the past year, you can really catch the differences between ancient instruments and modern ones. The Herbie tube dampeners has brought that out even more. Totally enjoyable. Frank |
^^^ *lol* ... I don't want to kill you Allan. Its just that I've been in this hobby for so many years ... since the early 70's in fact. That's how long I've been in the audio hobby chasing better sound, but I've been collecting music since the middle 50's. When I find a tweak that really works, like the SR Black fuses, or the SR "High Frequency Transducers" (HFT's), and now Herbie's tube dampeners, my cup runs over with enthusiasm. Its fun to share the information with like minded individuals. Another tweak I want to try is Herbie's "Black Hole" CD mat. I'll have to call them to find out if its compatible with the top loading ARC CD7-SErst. |
Allan ... While I was listening last night it occurred to me that the improvement was a lot like changing out the fuses. With every fuse change there was less and less grain in the system. The tube dampeners are a lot like that. Its as if someone cleaned off a window allowing a clearer vision to the outside. The "outside" in this case of course is the view of the performers. Images are much more solid and the 3-D presentation is improved. Bass, while I don't know if it goes any deeper, is more present. Acoustic stand-up bass is right there in the room. The clarity of the highs are improved as well. I was listening to some orchestral music last night. One of my favorite pieces of music for relaxation is Bach's "Air On a G String." This particular CD is a wonderful performance of the work on the EMI Classic label with Leopold Stokowski conducting and recorded in 1957. The massed strings just reach out and waft over the listening room. Very romantic music with superior sound. Here's a link to the Japanese import: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stokowski-Leopold-Stokowski-SO-Bach-Stokowski-HQCD-Japan-Import-/26245752393... One of my "test" records is Dave Brubeck's "Jazz Impressions of The USA. Its a mono recording ... but the kind of mono that has you asking: "Who needs stereo?" I've played this record at least a thousand times over the 50+ years that its been in my collection. With every improvement in the system, this record reflects that improvement. After installing Herbie's dampeners last night, Paul Desmond's alto sax had presence like never before. I could easily follow the direction of Joe Morello's brushes on the snare drum. The rim shots were more distinct too. When I think back on how this album sounded years ago, and how it sounds today, I have to laugh. Its come a long way, baby. Who knew what was hiding in those grooves? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=dave+brubeck&_osacat=176985&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045... Since I've been using Audio Technica cartridges, both the OC9-III, and now the ART-9, mono records have taken on a new life. These cartridges, even though configured for stereo, seem to get deeper into those mono grooves than any cartridge I've had before. The AT's just seem to extract more information. For a collector like me who has been collecting records for so long, there's a ton of mono records in the collection ... especially jazz. Herbie's tube dampeners have brought even more life to the mono records. Every time I make an improvement like this, I wonder how much more distortion is in the system ... and how do I get rid of it? The SR Black fuses brought things a long way in this regard. In fact, I made the comment in the fuse thread that I had thought the ARC REF-75se, with the KT-150 tubes was a grain-less amp. Ha! A simple change of a fuse changed that thinking real fast. Over the years, I've made a concerted effort to reduce micro vibrations anywhere I could. Prior to discovering the SR Black fuses I thought I had it covered. The fuses taught me differently. And now Herbie's tube dampeners have done the same thing. What's it going to be like when a full complement of the tube dampeners are in the system? And where do I go from there?? The next order of Herbie's tube dampeners are going into the amp and the phono stage. Should be nice. Thanks again, guys ... I'm stoked. :-) |
To all of you who recommended the Herbie's tube dampeners ... THANK YOU! I had five rx-9's delivered today to damp the five 6H30's in my preamp. All I can say is WOW! An immediate lowering of the noise floor, letting a lot more of the music flow through the speakers. Nothing is subtracted except the distortion caused by the vibrating tubes. Everything from top to bottom is improved. Most impressive is the improvement in the lower mid-range right where cellos shine. Lovely indeed. Vocals are much more tactile than before too. Again, its like a new record collection. So, five of the tube dampeners cost a total of $140.00. Not bad considering that it is like an upgrade to a better pre-amp ... and that would cost thousands. Now, over time, I will change out all of the ARC tube rings for the Herbie's dampeners. Amp and phono stage next. I'm totally impressed. OP |
There’s more than one way to skin a cat. Use an external fan like the O 2 Cool (get it?) to cool down the offending tubes. Then you can use the Herbies dampers. I used to have the Bada headphone amp, a great hybrid tube amp that runs real hot. I used the O 2 Cool fan to cool the whole thing down so the tubes were only warm to the touch. No way I'm listening to tubes without Herbies dampers. Period. |
Audiolover ... Thanks for the VERY well written report on the Herbie dampeners. Your experience isn't unlike what I've experienced with other tweaks that reduce micro vibrations throughout the system. What you've described is akin to getting closer to the sound of real instruments playing live in the room. Whenever I listen to live music, I try to compare it to what I hear in my system. This includes live concerts ... and my town's high school marching band at Friday night football games. (yep, I'm totally hooked on high school football.) What I notice with the live music is that it is really laid back compared to reproduced music in the home. Very natural sounding. No blare ... or "cringe factor," if you will. You're right about "seeming lower rez." That's what I hear with live music ... even when playing at its loudest, it still has a relaxed sense to it. You've got me really curious about the Herbies now. David 12 ... I have the ARC Ref-75 SE too. Just as a suggestion, exchange the stock fuse with a Synergistic Research Black fuse. The KT-150 is a great tube and allows for that "low grain" presentation and the good dynamics. BUT, what I thought was a close to a grain-free amp, was transformed with the SR Black fuse. Give it 50-100 hours to break in and you'll be amazed. Here's a link: http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-black-quantum-fuses Thanks for the information on the Herbies goodies, guys. OP |
Very useful information in this thread. I've been contemplating buying Herbies Dampers for my ARC Ref 75SE and Modwright 36.5. It's good to hear the favourable reports. I have always believed the standard position for a damper is about 1/3 down from the top of the tube, that's any tube. It seems it's more complicated. I do love the ARC, but it doesn't have a hewn from a billet of Aluminium |
I think it's worth mentioning that for larger tubes like 6SN7 and large rectifier tubes such as the coke bottle Tung Sol, a second Herbies damper placed on the base of the tube will further improve upon the first damper (which should be located on the glass portion wherever the getter is located. For bottom getters the damper should be placed on the bottom of the glass. |
Oregonpapa, if you have some herbies that aren’t in use, then I highly suggest that you brush the dust off of them and replace the ARC rings that are at least on the signal tubes of your pre. For me, the difference is not subtle. I do feel at first, you may think you’ve lost some of the highs as compared to the ARC rings, but I think you’ll agree, once you let the herbies settle in, that the ARC rings give a very highly tightly focused sound, but absolutely strangles the bloom of the instruments- Minimizing the full natural fleshiness of them. It may seem at first like a lower Rez, but you will actually realize after a little while, that the sound is actually more true to the real sense of the instrument. Yes, detail is very exciting to me, but it’s not everything. My stereo actually breathes now. I didn’t know just how much of the signature of my preamp was due to the elastomer rings. Yes, with the original herbies halos, the sound is somewhat slower than rings, dynamics are a teeny bit lessened, but the overall presentation is MUCH more tonally correct with more natural timbres, harmonic complexity and image sizes, smoother better defined highs, with better definition, * even if the noise floor seems ever so slightly higher. I’m in love with the new found bass weight. I may need to readjust my subwoofer...I look forward to hearing if you hear what I do. I wonder if the new top of the line herbies would be a worthwhile upgrade from my "old school"halos. The more I listen to different well known material, the more I realize just how the herbies blow the rings away. I think they sound even better tonight than last night, after settling on the tube. They are freaking amazing. Wow. Listening to Bon Jovi prayer 94 and it's become a religious experience. It's like a whole new song. In fact I would say. I'm actually hearing MORE resolution! I'm floored. |
^^^ Agreed. I've had the experience of over dampening a number of times. It calls to mind an experiment I did with shrink wrap on my Well Tempered tone arm. First layer - overall improvement. Second layer - no change. Third layer - a dulling of the sound. I settled on one layer and that layer remains on the tone arm to this day. |
one observation is that all or almost all other dampers have a lot of contact surface area with the glass whereas Herbies dampers have the extreme minimum contact area due to their very clever construction. As Isoclean the Japanese high end emporium states so succinctly, "be careful of over dumping." |
Audiolover718 wrote, "The ARC rings sound constricted by comparison and almost give, dare I say "nervous" kind of presentation. The herbies brought a very relaxed sound, with an added sense of ease and weight to the sound. I believe the rings have something to do with the ARC gear having that solid state kind of presentation. I also feel like the Highes are cleaner and less bright than before." That's my experience with all of the elastomer rings I have tried as well as ALL other types of tube dampers with the notable exception of Herbies dampers. I also started with the original Herbies Halo dampers and have had the latest version as well. In fact, removing the elastomer rings and using no tube dampers at provided a more open sound. Could this whole thing be an example of expectation bias? cheers |
Revisiting this "tweak", I decided to go back in to my preamp and do some experimentation with dampers and pulled off the ARC elastomer rings, and replaced them with some original herbies teflon halo's that I had in a baggie, in the audio"junk drawer". I placed them in the same spot, (high up as the stock ARC rings were as suggested by oregonpapa). To my surprise, they did in fact bring a sweeter sound, and brought a greater sense of bloom to the instruments, without adding any muddiness. The ARC rings sound constricted by comparison and almost give, dare I say "nervous" kind of presentation. The herbies brought a very relaxed sound, with an added sense of ease and weight to the sound. I believe the rings have something to do with the ARC gear having that solid state kind of presentation. I also feel like the Highes are cleaner and less bright than before. Now mind you, these are the original halos, and not the current top of the line herbies dampers. I'm impressed so far. I will leave them in for a while and listen to more material to really see what they are doing. I do like the increase in bloom for sure. I think the rings constrict the bloom IMHO. |