Evita
Thanks for asking, I have decided to abandon the hobby.
Thanks for asking, I have decided to abandon the hobby.
Tube Amp Suggestions
I have had the audio affliction for about 10 years. I am finally ready to venture into the world of tube amps and would appreciate any ideas my fellow audiophiles might have. My current set up is theta basic II with a camelot uther IV going directly into a pass labs aleph 5 and audio physic virgo II speakers. All wiring is tara labs air 1. Budget is $2,000 to 3,000 new or used.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
80 responses Add your response
Didactically, Can you possibly just answer HIS question? Your answer is all about you and your preferences, which don't answer the question posed by sgunther. If you can't bring yourself to recommend a tube amp, why not just search for a thread where your philosophy applies? And if you're asking me how I am doing, just fine thank you. |
ATI, ...though I continue the search for low distortion (<0.1% THD/IMD over a respectable frequency range, somewhat greater than 20hz-20khz) tube amp with say at least 40w of power. I would use it for the main panels of my active eq/xo 2-way open baffle system. Contiuing to use SS for the also open baffle woofers (2-12" dynamic drivers in push-pull configuration each woofer) which reqire only 50w of power themselves. A 40w tube amp is roughly equivenent to say a 100w solid state (the min reqmt for the 2-8" mid + tweeter panels). There are several distortion free ss amps available for as little as $200, I just believe the ATI is the better bargain. If I had money to burn, which I would be doing, I would indugle myself in the exquisite beauty of the Jeff Rowland Design Gourp line (which actually come with an optional clear plastic to reveal the interior, which is a work of art...but $8k) though not because I expected it to perform any better than say even the $200 vintage Hafler DH-200/220. Do you know of a tube amp that will meet the criteria (above)? |
How far into name calling will you go before coming up for air and emulate some semblence of maturity, dignity, respect and sanity, anyway. What you call others says more about you than them. It does not change anyone in any way. Even if they retaliate: push your face in, or worse (which you obviously have no fear of here in the safety of cyberspace) they just demonstrate they are like you already, or worse. You do not make them that way. No one can. What do you get out of it anyway. What do you 'like' about it, to do it so persistently. Is it anything you can share? In the light of day. What ever happened to 'audio'? Thankfully youall are a minority here. |
Your insults (which say more about you than me) notwithstanding, hear is SL's reply as I promised: 'I am not sure that I had seen Cheever's thesis, but glancing at it I see that I have been familiar with his observations. I sometimes say that "the first Watt" is most telling about an amplifier's audible performance. It brings out problems due to crossover distortion with its high harmonics and poor feedback designs. This is where tube equipment shines and has its strength, so that it takes very little knowledge to design a decent low power tube amp. It is the area that has given solid-state amps a bad name and makes the design of good ss-amps exceedingly difficult. But it can be done.' |
Spoken like a true 'connoisseur of coloration'. An eloquent justification. 'The power of suggestion works exceedingly well, when listeners cannot trust their own hearing. I recommend to re-calibrate yourself frequently. Listen closely to all sorts of un-amplified sounds in order to recognize and remember natural aural patterns. It becomes an endless and futile pursuit to listen for and try to evaluate differences between speakers, equipment and accessories without a reality based mental reference.' (SL) |
Why do you care what I think, or even whether I think, and why are you so angry? I know it does not have anything to do with me. You also sound like the President. If you challenge what he thinks you are not patriotic. To critique a Republican does not make you a Liberal, or anything else. Lets discuss 'audio'. That is why we are here, is it not? Otherwise call Dr Phil. He can help you with your personal problems. |
An interesting thread indeed and I'm sure the original poster ,Sgunther, really appreciates the squabble ;-) but I feel I MUST put in my two cents. I can appreciate the opinions of Didactically as I have a friend who feels the same way. He is an engineer who is an audiophile and looks a lot at the figures represented by manuf. specs and does not feel that tubes can possibly portray a sonic duplicate of the actual event.I can agree with this as I'm sure many can. However neither can solid state. The whole industry is flawed from source(studio) to final destination (our ears!). I'm sure that if all recordings were made the same there would not be the audio industry we have today. Certainly not the variety of equipment. It's obvious that nobody hears exactly the same and what we do hear is some form of generalization of the sonic event. The only thing we can do is tailor the sound to be pleasing to ourselves whether through the use of tubes or SS. If accuracy was the true goal there really would only be a handfull of recordings we could listen to as most of the sonic garbage starts at the studio. I recently went from SS (Ayre) to tube (ARC) and the difference in sound is vastly different. My wife and I both enjoyed the ARC in more ways than we did the Ayre. Not that the Ayre is bad, I'm sure that many people would enjoy it more BUT to OUR ears the ARC simply sounded more pleasing. I won't use the word accurate on either amp as I never attended the original studio event for anything in my CD or vinyl collection so I have no point of refrence to grade playback against. The ARC was just more satisfying and friendly. The tubes may be colored and introduce thier own signature to the sound but it is more pleasing than the nature of solid state, but hey, it keeps me listening to the music. I hope one day soon to hear the Linkwitz speakers as I think it represents new steps towards music reproduction. I also hope it colors the music in a way that is pleasing to the ear! |
So you have no opinions of your own? You must follow Linkwitz like a lemming???? And as for your remark about the president, your way of thinking.....or not thinking, made me know right away you were a liberal. You would rather someone else made up your mind for you. Makes sense now...... Go back to your home theater amp, you deserve it. Oz |
I have sent the paper to Siegfried Linkwitz for his opinion. Scanning the Conclusion it appears that he does not necessarily take the postion specs are not useful for evaluation. But he does infer the premise that listening is subjective so 'whatever 'sounds' good to you is good'. As opposed to the more scientific approach that much can be done to more accurately replicate the live performance in all its accoustical subtelty and nuance in recording and playback. I will let you know if I get an opinion from SL. How about the link issue? |
I am not interested in learning something 'new'. 'THere is nothing new under the sun.' I am interested in learning someing 'true'. BTW you do not think that because it is a 'Masters thesis' that it is true, do you? The President went to Harvard. How did you get a 'link' to show up as a link on a Reply anyway. I have typed, and cut/paste many but they show up as text only...not a functioning link. |
Didactically, how willing are you to learn something new? The link below is to a fellow's Masters thesis which seeks to correlate measurement data to what we hear. http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf |
At any rate, my view is based on levels of distortion produced by a component, which is measurable. Not how it 'sounds'.That's enough for me to doubt your credibility and seriously wonder who moved the rock and set you free. I trust my ears, I have/do listen to a lot of live music and have since I was 7 years old and do the best job at selecting components that get me as close to "live" sound as possible- and quite frankly the specs. mean very little to me. BTW you can have a low distortion amp that is very colored, I don't see how you could infer that the two are directly related. |
A wise man once said, ' most error is the result of a false premise, carelessly assumed, then building on that premise'. You do not know what I have listened to. Yet you proceed as though you did, then presume to have made a convincing argument. At any rate, my view is based on levels of distortion produced by a component, which is measurable. Not how it 'sounds'. I prefer it have no sound of its own since it is distortion that you hear even though many have very definate tastes for various specific characteristics of distortion, often described in affectionate and poetic terms. I have no argument with these 'connoisserus of coloration', and certainly no interest in debating their subjective tastes for the 'sound' they like. I want to hear the music. As accurately, and live like, as possible. Have I not been clear about that? |
Slay? in what way? Define 'good sounding'. FYI It is actually more difficult to design a distortion free solid state amp than a tube design. It makes you wonder why it is more difficult to find tube amps with tolerable levels of distortion. But then so many are more interested in how their system sounds than in listening to the actual music, which would lead one to aspire to hear it accurately: as played by the musicians in whichever environment. Oh, well. To each his or her own, I suppose. |
Didactically. Goals Smoals.... will you give your head a shake! Have you ever heard a Wavac amplifier? No... I didn't think so.Have you ever heard the Cary 805'? Obviously not! Yes sir, your ATI amp is a very nice sounding solid state amplifier... along with a host of others solid state amplifiers. Personally speaking sir......My Bedini 25/25 pure class A amplifier simply stomps on all over it in my rig. Sorry partner,call it any way you wish too..... and to be a little more blunt and to the point here.... The ATI is not even in the same league as the Cary 805 or any of the wavac amplifiers when it boils down to reproducing a musical signal.For the life of me, I just do not understand how anyone can ascertain how amplifier A is better than amplifier B without listening to each of them. Hey Batman,if you haven't listened to them... perhaps you should do so before preaching the Gospel here about distortion specs. Hell... my teenage nephews 80 watt Radio Shack receiver specs out pretty damned close to your ATI amplifier, and it's guaranteed to give me a headache in the first few bars of whatever you wish to listen to. |
C1... The difference is .4% :-) though surely not as relevant as the difference between say 0.005% and 1 to 2% (or more). But the point is whether it is audible, or not. Or if you like the idea of the source material being affected by a component at all, or whether you want to attempt to 'improve' the music with some distortion quality or other in one or more components. Once recorded, though, is that even possible? Please define, 'sounded "nice"'. I really do not care to argue with those who enjoy their various qualities of distortion, regardless of how seductive the poetic terms used to describe it. From my perspective, there is No point. Two schools of audio can be differentiated by 'goal'. Note that those who argue surprisingly ferverently against me personally (whatever that is about), and much less the point I attempt to make, rarely mention the music. And obviously have no ambition to reproduce it as accurately as possible in their listening room. I do not know to what degree they acknowledge it, but they seem to only be concerned about the 'sound' of the individual components, and of their system collectively. Any sound whatever of which has to be 'distortion'. 'A good system is a silent system.' One that gets out of the way, and lets the music through. That is my position, and I am sticking to it. I imagine that if a musician was found to be so invloved in the sound of their instrument they would be corrected by their teachers and instructed to focus primarily on the music. Perhaps even to the degree of faithfully depicting the intention of the composer. Anyway, I notice the Wavac's have no distortion measurement in their specs at all. They are pretty, though. I have yet to see, even after contacting mfgrs specifically, that a spec indicating low distoriton was ever unintentionally omitted from publication. The cutoff seems to be 1 to 2% (THD/IMD) Some, but not all, 'brand names' will show that much, but never more. Whereas a mfgr ALWAYS shows when it is less. Hmmm. To all: nothing personal, and no offence. BTW I have never cut and pasted a post in my life; Nor is my relationship with Seigfried Linkwitz other than one of a buyer to a seller. Since my speaker system is his design, I am just grateful he is accessible (and didactic by nature :-) |
I kind of apologize for starting this thread. Would not a hybrid amp with a tube input stage and a ss output stage capture the best of both worlds. A musical reference rm200 (which I believe is a hybrid amp), was suggested by someone early in this post. A used rm200 was offered on audiogon the other day but got snapped up immediately. Anyway thanks for all of the comments. |
Specifications are important; agreed. But, which specifications and at what point is the chase for numbers inefficient? Amp companies were chasing high power and vanishing distortion in the 1980s. Is there really any difference between .5% THD and .1%? I don't think so in the real world. Same thing with things rated past 20k; who can hear past 20K? Yes, I understand about harmonics and that is one reason I think analogue recordings sound better than 44.1 (or 48khz) recordings. I have done parallel live recordings with very good microphones and used a Nakamichi ZX9 and a professional DAT recorder. Guess what; when we listened to the tapes later EVERYBODY much preferred the cassette recording! It sounded nicer. Period. The digital has specs all over the cassette; the cassete sounded better. There are quality tube amps with excellent performance and bandwidth; check out the Wavac amplifiers for one example. |
I'd heard of Linkwitz (smart old me) and could even connect his name with that of Riley, except I always get them mixed up with the Fitzgerald-Lorentz contraction. Serves me right for reading sci-fi instead of hi-fi. For Lirpa I had to do a search. Dr. E. Lirpa, right? Father of the wireless cable? Other curious newbies check out Lirpa here FTL travel buffs go here |
Ecclectique, don't expect a direct answer from Didactically. Always the same irrelevant answer, and he never responds by directly answering a question posed to him. Just redundant noxious waste that takes up space. I'm sure no one here knows what he's talking about, not even Didactically himself. Read all of his posts....always the same, always seeking justification as the "Bringer of the Ultimate Audio Truth". |
Tvad. I'm not criticizing Seigfried Linkwitz, and I do intend to read the info at his website. There may indeed be some valuable information and theories posted there. But you are right...Dida is a one note zealot who is probably turning people OFF to anything that S.L. would have to say. It's sort of like an overly zealous and incredibly obnoxious evangelist who, in reality, actually turns people away from God! "I don't want any part of the same God Who belongs to such an annoying chowder head!", many will say. |
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Fatparrot has NAILED my concerns with this fellow in his last two statements! All audiophiles trying to learn PLEASE do not take didactically seriously if you would like we can post links to his other posts where he the same sales pitch. Its almost as though Carl_eber has returned only he has been smoking crack for the last few years and well you see what we're stuck with. No offense to Carl should you read this, that comment was made in jest ;) |
Beware of Didactically; he's like a computer virus! He showed up on Agon a few weeks ago, and has mastered the "clip and paste" technique quite well. All of his posts are a repeat of his dogma of "true to the source" and a cultist's belief in "published distortion figures". No matter what the thread's subject is, rest assured that these two irrelevant themes will be present! Seigfried Linkwitz is his audio God, whom he worships with blind devotion (or for his own financial gain?) and every other approach to the design or to the application of audio technology is HERESY. When asked questions about his listening experiences or a further explanation of his premises, rest assured that YOU WILL NOT GET AN ANSWER, merely incoherent psychobabble. This is actually quite funny, except that there are novices here on Agon who want to learn about high end audio, and they might make the mistake of taking him seriously. CAVEAT EMPTOR!!! |
If you have measurable amounts of distortion in your system, especially audible amounts, which get described in poetic terms by the 'connoisseurs of coloration', you will not hear the music. Even as much as actually got recorded on the source material. That is the whole point. Reference earphones (Sure ER2: $100, tested and reviewed at www.linkwitzlab.com Reference Earphones link) can be used to hear the recording. THen compare to what you hear in the room, through your system. Of course there is not much to be done about how the recording was produced, except be selective in purchases. If more were, perhaps the labels would restrain the overuse of those 1/4 million dollar, room size, mixing consoles, and requrire more of the engineers, in capturing more of what the artists create on their instruments. BTW there is a list of tested and proven sonically superior reference quality CD's in a variety of musical genres at the MUSIC link at www.linkwitzlab.com |
That is an amplifier spec. I guess what you want from speakers is transparency. It can be evaluated by using reference earphones (Shure ER2: $100, tested and reviewed at www.linkwitzlab.com Reference Earphones link. Listen to the recording, then compare what you hear in the room through your system. It can be disapointing, even discouaging, but like Dr Phil says, 'you cannot change what you do not acknowlege'. Of course the first thing may be to work on setup. Making sure you are getting the most of what the speakers have to offer. You can just check the specs for the amp: to see if it is the culpret, or a participant. But once you get those right, you will find the 'live' like quality of the music so involving, that there is little incentive to be so concerned about the top end components, cables, or tweaks. |
Distortion is measurable, as well as audible: just listen to the poetic terms the 'connoissers of coloration' use to describe it :-) Those specs are a major conveniece in the auditioning process (when it is low enough that the mfgr will publish it for public scrutiny, that is). Imagine a component with 'no' distortion. Whats to audition? Whats to listen to in order to discern and choose? It makes no sound to hear. Your choices then are size, price, build quality, or perhaps aesthetics. And Bob's your uncle, as they say. I have been there: auditioning, creating terms to express what I hear, even though I find myself saying verbatim what everybody else says, about every product: even the component isolation device and the power cord. Trading componets, over, and over again. Trying this, then that. Never satisfied. The absurdity which is mixing and matching distortion qualities. One to compensate for another. As though all that were rational, reasonale, and necessary. Or the worse, superior. To those still in it, who have not found their way out, or who beleive and perhaps do no want out, mentioning'spec's has the same affect as light to Darcula. Or, the notion of 'blind test' as well. You know what I am saying. |
NO I do not put the Cary amp in the same catagory with ATI. They have too much distortion to qualify. I am trying to get distortion out of my system so I can hear the music instead. Since discovering do not have to settle for distortion in an amp, I have no incentive to characterize it various poetic terms: 'sweet', 'warm', 'bloom', 'smooth', etc. Your anchor analogy does fit the album producers. Not much we can do about the inferior sonic quality of so many recordings. Except become selective, which is easy once you actually hear the recording when it is not masked by the system/room setup distortions. That could put some demand on producers to go easy on the mixing console, and require more of incompetant engineering. Did you know it is more difficult to design ss amps to lower distortion levels than tubes. Makes you wonder, doesn't it. I mean what the market really is for tube equipment. It appears the 'connoisseures of coloration' have it there. Oh, well. Any discernable difference between the same low distortion in tubes vs ss would be very subtle indeed. Though I would prefer it, if it were availble (with enough power to drive my main panels at least --40w min). |
Quote: So why keep clicking on them, taking the trouble to read them, only to further bother to write critical, condescening, and insulting remarks. Didactically, if you are referring to me, I apologize for any remarks construed to be insulting. Also, I didn't understand your reference "...why keep clicking on them, taking the trouble to read them." Quote: What is that about. Again, I am confused as to the context of your questions. I am not sure as to "who" or "what" your questions refer to. On a different note, how much distortion do your speakers produce? Is it less than your minimum standard of 0.1? |
Didactically. Pardon me sir, I don't get it: are your ears painted on or what? Or perhaps this is some kind of puzzle?....Ahhhhhh...Now I get it.... a paint by numbers puzzle and I'm supposed to join all the lines together and paint over all the numbers. I just can't seem to find a colour chart number <.005 to paint the ears on the side your square head. |
DIDA. ATI ss amps???.Do you really put the CARY 805 in the same class with ATI???I know ,I know the distortion is above the minimum standard of 0.1% at 20Hz-20KHz.Start your own audio equipment manufacturing .Teach those guys a lesson.Who are they kidding to sell inferior high distortion generating boat anchors.LOL |
They do not even list distortion, even in the manual. So they apparently are not proud of it. Contrare. So why bother listening. Nor do they show greater than 20hz-20khz frequency range. Though the Output Impendance is in line with what I consider a minimum standard. That of course is not near enough to validate an amp's accuracy. If you know of one that meets standards for accuracy (distortion free), I would like to see it. |