Tube Amp Suggestions

They were looking so good ...then a THD of 1% showed up. I consider <0.1% a maximum standard. ATI ss amps for instance are <0.005% at rated power.

Oh, well. Thanks anyway.

So why keep clicking on them, taking the trouble to read them, only to further bother to write critical, condescening, and insulting remarks.

What is that about.

Didactically. I am just curious? Have you ever heard a pair of Cary 805c's or B's?

Didactically, here's one that you would love regardless of what the actual THD spec is.

Atma-Sphere M-60

You would be very happy with their bass performance as well provided they are paired with a suitable speaker/cable combination.

Dida,

Your posts to topics are growing quite old, are not very useful to anyone, and are boringly repetitious.

For someone whose moniker is "to teach", you are failing horribly. You may wish to review your teaching methods.

Regards,

Did you just miss the point, or is it a strategy to so erronously characterize what I actually said, or at least obviously meant.

I am not 'die hard' anything other than 'true to the original' as a principal in audio. Though I realize it is a departure from the 'connoisseur of coloration' to personal subjective taste approach.

I want to hear the music, not my system, and fully accept that audiophila is predominatly populated with those who perfer the latter, but there still exist some who prefer the former like me, and who tend to respond to my views quite differently.

AT any rate, if I could find a 40w tube amp with a maximum <0.1% THD/IMD at rated power over a 5hz-50khz frequency range... do you know of one? I would prefer it to drive the mids/treble of my system (ss is better for woofers).

I think tubes are great. It is distortion that I do not like. It interfers with the music, which is what I prefer to hear rather than the system. (The 'connoissers of coloration' nothwithstanding :-)

For some reason fewer tube amps are made with distorion <0.1% at rated power, than solid state amps, which is ironic since it is more difficult to accomplish with solid state.

If you perfer to call that 'an issue', fine. But how could you expect 'it' to go away? That is, as long as there are those who's principal interest in audio is 'true to the original', rather then this preferance for that particual distortion characterist over that one, etc., even if typically described poetically.

Didactically, you are pretty emotionally involved in a debate that many, like myself, didn't even realize was still an issue with anyone.

As for your perspective, it is more like a sledge hammer missing its mark than a pin popping anyone's preferences. I did enjoy your last analogy, but don't see it as being applicable in any sense.

it sounds a bit extreme to me to say that tube-lovers are "boys" and "their marriages are in trouble." comments like this are childish and don't show you to a "man" as you proclaim. until recently, i was a diehard solid state fan as well (owned acurus amps, aragon amps, and most recently, a plinius sa-102) but i switched to tubes because i preferred the way the music sounded to me. you prefer the way the music sounds to you with solid state. no biggie. i can identify. to come on this forum and bash tube users because tube amps have higher distortion doesn't make sense. what the hell does it matter as long as we are both happy? i enjoy my setup. i'm certain you enjoy yours. there is no right or wrong....only what you enjoy.

Yes, I do not go over well with the 'connoisseurs of coloration'. My perspective is a pin that pops their 'preference-for-a-specific-distortion-chracteristics' bubble.

So they rant, shoot at the messenger as it were, instead of cry, and kick themselves for being so gullible, and begin listening for 'live' like sonics instead.

I uderstand. The hardest thing for a man to do is admit he is wrong. But a 'man' does, and has a happy wife. Boys do not, and their marriages are in trouble.

I am glad you are happy. I saw a guy once picking his nose and eating the booger. He was very content. I did not care to watch it, but I had no anamosity or resentment for the fellow, you know what I mean.

You listen to your tubes, I will listen to the music.

BTW, it is by listening that I discerned the more live like sonics of the amps with no distortion. Especially with transparent speakers laborously set up to get the most out them.

That is how I knew. At first I took a chance on the logic, and reasonableness of the science, i.e., the specs. That distoriton can be measured. That to the degree it is present in the system, it will interfer with what the music is that artists made in real life. At least as well as it got produced and engineered onto the recording.

Not much we can do about their end, except become intelligently discerning about the choices we make on what to support with our purchases.

But then again, if you have sufficient distortion in your system, however much you may be enjoying it, you will not hear how poor the recording is, so it will make no difference to you. That is the unacknowledged point, is it not.

Didactically
My first high-end power amp was the ML 27.5 bought new 9 years ago and is still resting on it's spot on the floor.
Great sound .Then in Feb 2000 I bought my first tubed power amp the CJ MV55 .I swear the minute I turned it on I noticed beautiful sound coming out of it.Better than the ML in many areas.Not as powerfull but way more enjoyable sound.
This is my observation based on this experience.Now your screen name drives from greek "didaktikos" meaning "educational"but I kindly suggest to you to change it to "doctordistortion".I read many of your answers and noticed that you are obsessed with the specs and particularly the "distortion".
Happy listening

Didactically, you've really gotta lessen your reliance on specs and do a bit more listening. Like you I was a SS addict for years. Then I heard my first really good tube amp - a SET design with all that distortion and the damping factor of a damp feather - and I was undone. I'll never go back to sand amps, because tubes just sound so much better - no matter what their shortcomings look like on paper.

The Canary push-pull amps in particular are simply exquisite.

Agree with the comments on AtmaSphere, great amps, just not with these speakers. And, my experience with mine has shown me the Zero Autoformers that a lot of people will point low impedance speaker owners towards really bleaches out the sound and takes the magic of the Atmas away.

My other pair of tube monos, the Granite 861s would be flat out fantastic. I listen to a lot of gear, and this little company makes about as good a pair of tube monos that you will come across. I felt strong enough that I bought a pair.

Also like the Cary V12, which I have personally heard make nice music with Audio Physics. And the BAT VK60 must always be kept in mind whenever someone is looking for a nice tube amp.

Not that I am not a fan of Rogue 120 amps, but their level of refinement is a definite step or three down from the amps listed above.

Though the CA-301SE is getting there, and better than most (the 10 Damping Factor is a good sign) still at THD <0.5% (over a very decent frequency range), it still is noticabley over a cutoff of <0.1% THD.

An excellent ss amp for instance is typically more like <0.005% THD, and IMD. And at 22w... what can it drive?

I mean, you do not HAVE to go tubes, and in my opinion, it cannot be worth to add distortion.

While the Canary CA-300 is an 8 wpc SET, their CA-301SE is a 22 wpc push-pull amp that has very attractive specs and build quality. It may be available used within the original poster's budget, but Canary 300B p-p amps seem to be rare on the used market. I can understand why - after my experience with them I'm very enthusiastic about the company and their products.

The Cary 805 for instance, has a limited frequency range (only 20hz-20khz) and they do not even mention distortion in their specs. That cannot be good.

For inaudible distortion you want a min of <0.1% THD, IMD, over a 5hz-50khz frequency range. As well as Outut Impedance <0.4 ohms.

The Canary is more like it, but notice: 8w

McIntash models show <.5% THD but only over a 20hz-20khz

No mention in your post, but Rouge also has decent specs and ample power. That is, a 40w tube amp is approx equivelent to a 100w solid state.

It is not that easy to find distortion free amps, especially tubed units. By far the majority of mfgrs do not come close.

No wonder the myth is perpetuated that specs do not matter. So few meet minimum requirements for inaudible distortion. Insteade they glorify their distortion qualites in poetic terms and sell the dream preached by the 'connoisseurs of colorations' magazine reviewers.

I wonder how many mfgrs will advertise in a magazine that gives their products unfavorable reviews. It does not sound like good business.

I wonder how many reviewers will remain employed when mfgrs begin pulling their advertising based on their unfavorable reviews.

In the 2 to 3k used price range you have your pick of all but the best tube amplifiers and even some quality single ended triode moderate powered amps suitable for your speakers (like the Cary 805b).

Cary 805B monoblocks are close to 3k used and give you 50 single ended class A watts..very good amplifiers..

McIntosh MC240 (40 watts), mc275...work well with a 4 ohm load due to the McTransformers..nice sounding amps that will retain their value if you do not overpay. 1000 to 2500 used

Bruce Moore Dual 70 tube amp...I only remember this guy makes really good stuff is the reputation.

Air Tight ATM2..very good amps

Canary CA300 monoblocks..think this is a push/pull class A 300b amp that makes good power...

BAT VK60 about 2000 very good amp

Audio Research VT60, VS55

Melos Audio MAT180

Lots of choices; there were more. There are examples of all of these for sale as of this writing. A quality 845 single ended amp would make about 22 to 25 watts depending on design; that would be sufficient for your speakers as long as they do not present a low resistance that varies a lot.

'Supposedly, there exist a few 'triode' (tube) amplifier designs of exceptional transparency. Usually their power output is below 20W and insufficient to drive most speakers'... most important are low output impedance (<0.4 ohm) and low distortion (<0.1%) of the amplifier over a 5 Hz to 50 kHz frequency range' (Seigfried Linkwitz).

The best I could find among the popular tube brands is 1-2% THD, and only over 20hz-20khz range. 'Rogue' looked better than any of those. But I am not sure the compromise in transparency (low distoriton) is worth the 'bloom' of tubes when you need more than 20w to power your mid and upper range drivers. (always use ss for woofers)

The ATI line of solid state amps are <0.005THD, for instance. As are the vintage Hafler DH-200/220, the Muse 160 (and Bry$ston, and the very $$ Jeff Rowland) solid state amps.

If you just want a 'warm', 'soft' sound, put cotton in your ears, or hang a blanket over your speakers. It will accomplish the same thing. Really.

May I make an alternate suggestion, I use the Aleph 3 and find it hard to beat as a power amp into my admittedly sensitive Living Voice Avatar speakers. why not keep it and go for a valve pre. I recently changed to a Conrad J Premier17 and could'nt be happier. Wide detailed fatigue free soundstage etc. I am a great believer in the Valve pre, SS power route. I hope that is of help, probably just confused you more.

Agree with Rogue M150 suggestion. Great amps, used $3000. Cheaper would be older M120s, but self-bias circuit runs them hot. If you like the Aleph sound, I wouldn't recommend ARC sound, but the VT100 Mk II at $2000 is good value.

My Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods have an efficiency close to your Virgos but are 8 ohm rated. I am using Shanling SP-80 monoblocs in stock form but with NOS driver tubes. This amp is the only one I know of which gets 50 real watts out of a pair of sweet-sounding EL34s. Mods are available from 2 or 3 places, looks are killer. Built-in remote-controlled preamp can be bypassed simply. MSRP $2495.

U.S. distributor's page

Second the Music Reference RM200 recommendation.

Thanks for the suggestions. To answer a couple of questions that have been posed. The virgo's have an 89db sensativity and pose a 4 ohm load. My room is 14'X20'X9'. Anyone had experience with the Rogue Magnum M120 with these speakers.

Thanks Again

For a little strech (3995$ list) you could get the ROGUE AUDIO m150 monoblocks new.They got 4 and 8 ohms output taps.
Great product .www.rogueaudio.com
George a happy owner.

Atma-Sphere M-60s are a great amp with the right speaker and the Virgo II is not one them. The impedance of the Virgos drops too low for the Atma-Spheres and you will start to blow output tubes even at moderate level. I had this set up and to fix the problem I had to get Zero-Impedance boxes which better matched the speaker to the amp. It sounded pretty good. I have found that the near perfect match for the Virgos is Pass amps and current run the Aleph 2s with my Virgos. Vac amps also are good as well at BAT. Good luck.

How big is your room? I had a pair of Audio Physic Virgo II's in a 18x24 room with a BAT vk60. It sounded great. You can get the VK60 for around 16-1800 used. If you can go for a vk75 or 75se for a little more, than even better. I think the 75se is around 3600-4000 used.

Good luck

The Music Reference RM-200 would be an excellent match for your system. It provides in excess of 100 wpc into anything above 4 ohms, and even substantial output into lower impedances. Sonically, it yields a direct, unembellished presentation, with substantial soundstage dimensions, believable imaging, and robust dynamics. Unlike most of its tubular brethren, it can deliver the low end of the audible spectrum with real authority. It is attractive, quiet, and doesn't eat tubes. From time to time it can be found on Audiogon for $1,700-$2,400. Finally, I've heard it with Virgos, and I found that it brought that speaker's substantial attributes to full fruition.

Sensitivity and impedance of your speakers?

I am not sure about the pairing with your speakers, but Atma-Sphere M-60's have done the trick for me.