TT, 12" Tonearm. Who tried and ended up preferring 12" arm?
TT, 12" Tonearm. Who tried and ended up preferring 12" arm?
I don't mean to start a good, better, best, 'here we go again' tech talk about 9/12, that has been covered, and I have been researching.I’ll agree that the sagging photo is a bit too sagging. It’s condition is something like mine, which does need a new grommet. Since there are may be half a dozen people in the whole world who give a s**t about this question, maybe we should stop? And maybe Chak would stop preaching on the subject. Instead, it would be better if you would qualify your remarks as "opinion". To which you are entitled. And we can move on to something equally boring. |
Interesting pictures that do not quite tell the whole story as you are painting it Chak……. If you look at a few more pictures on the net you will clearly see the one you posted has the whole collar askew. There are quite a few with a straight collar and some degree of sag that is genuinely from the rubber but do not look as bad as the one picture you posted. However you want to beat it to death, the terminology is NOT defective or broken! Although the picture you did post would qualify as broken imho yes. |
Do you not see a slight sag in the CW, even for your pristine example? I do. We can look at another image from the internet: a perfect tonearm and a broken sample Anything in between is SAG at different degree, but clearly visible from the first fast look on it. |
Just a final comment on the droop seen on many 7082 and 7045 arms. Not really, the NOS are normally very expensive compared to gently used samples, just like everything in audio. I've seen only a few NOS samples in 5 years or so, i bought one of them, it was 7045, sold it when i bought long 7082 (used). My 7082 does not have any problem with rubber grommet, but it's original, everything is clean like new. Regarding the used 7045 only 1 out of 3 wasn't perfect. So it's possible to find a perfect used sample, nice and clean. Another problem is oil in armlift, but the whole armlift can be replaced with new jelco armlift. The problem is that most people selling junk on ebay, i prefer to buy everything from a perfectionists like myself. |
This is an old listing for the single arm plinth, very hard to tell from the pictures the exact construction though. https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649200296-victor-jvc-cl-p10-turntable-plinth/ And this quote from The Vintageknob on the ql7 "Victor’s CL-P bases are made of four layers of high-density particle boards and three layers of special inorganic material ; I don’t know if that structure was retained for the export black base" However not sure the total accuracy there. http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-QL-7.html |
Elliott. Sounds like you are doing your homework and due diligence, very commendable. I did see that one on Audiomart and it does look to be in nice shape and includes a step down transformer ( even though he says step up, lol) Unfortunately some of the items exported from Japan can show some corrosion due to the high humidity and if they have been stored in a warehouse or store room for some time. You do have to be careful. Yes rubber does degrade in the enviroment due to chemicals and reactions to such , unless you live in a clean room that is! And yes that two arm base IS HUGE and heavy! I only just squeezed it into the space the TT-71 had been with barely mm to spare. I do not know if the smaller single arm base is constructed in the same fashion though. Good luck if you decide to pull the trigger on the Audiomart item! |
Hi Everyone. I cancelled the purchase amicably. That deck, and arm was not in great shape. I’ve got my eye on one in Canada, the counterweight rubber was just restored, everything looks in better shape. See the last 2 photos he added https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649553719-victor-jvc-tt-81-direct-drive-quartz-lock-turntable-with-long-victor-ua-7082-tonearm/ That 2 arm base is HUGE. 565mm w x 508mm d x 202mm h. (22-1/4w x 20d x 8h). Once I realized how big, I have to rethink where it and other equipment will go, probably need to spend money to solve all that, ..... ........................ Question: IF I go for a TT81 with single long 7082 arm, does the smaller base have the same layered construction as the big CL-P2 base? The CL-P2, on some, looking closely, you can see the layers on the front edge, the smaller base, no layers are revealed, perhaps covered by veneer. Confusing. I am so behind on Christmas, |
Elliot, the poly table Super 12 with a 12" Jelco arm is a great choice as long as you are using a fairly low compliance cartridge certainly less than 15 um/mN. Something like an Ortofon 2M Black will suffer greatly in that arm. The are a lot of MC cartridges below 15 and Sound Smith makes cartridges with very low compliance just for arms like this. |
Just a final comment on the droop seen on many 7082 and 7045 arms. The only way I believe you will ever see one of these with zero droop is from a nos example that has lived in its sealed box all of its life. Many reasons for the droop to exist on used examples. Reaction of the rubber to chemicals present in the environment and natural degrading of the rubber over time, these arms are 30 to 40 years old. Once a counter weight is mounted then the laws of nature and gravity will take over and again if have been in use for 30 to 40 years.….. One possible reason for some arms showing more droop than others could be the weight of the cartridge used, a heavier cart will mean the counterweight was mounted further back to balance the arm and vice versa. All of these factors explain just why most of these arms show some droop to one degree or another and why the amount of droop may differ. My 7045 has more droop than my 7082, could be any of the above including maybe it was a nos example not used for many years. Who knows unless you personally owned them from new. Certainly we should NOT be describing these used examples as "defective" as some have done as they clearly are not so. Now common sense rules and if you see a droop of 45 degrees or more then yes I would be concerned but a couple degrees from level? Just my take on the arm situation. |
Chakster, I owe you a slight apology: The OP did ask about the Victor tonearm, so far as I can tell. As to the rubber grommet on the UA tonearms, I will accept your statement that the CW starts out level with the arm wand, because I never owned an NOS one, but I still maintain that a few degrees of "sag" is not catastrophic, and there are reasons to believe it is even advisable, as the sag (a few degrees but perceptible) puts the center of mass of the CW in the same plane as the surface of the LP. Many modern tonearm designs (like your and my beloved Reed tonearms and like my Triplanar) do this deliberately, as it minimizes the change in VTF that occurs as the cartridge tracks a warped LP. Further, the grommet decouples the CW from the arm wand with the pivot in between, which is beneficial also. The later versions of the Triplanar also deliberately decouple the CW using a flexible joint, albeit a stiffer one than the one on the UA tonearms. We’ve had this discussion at least half a dozen times. If Victor designers really thought it was imperative to have the CW sit in a straight line with the arm wand, do you think they would have incorporated that flexible grommet, which inevitably permits sag, in the first place? I don’t. So, the photo you showed of the tonearm that is to be purchased by the OP looks perfectly OK to me. The sag is minimal, and I wouldn’t touch it. Elliot, my advice is leave it alone. Enjoy. |
That's a fair price for a UA-7045 arm and yes likely to show some sag on the rubber. From my experience unless the arm has never been used then they are ALL going to have some small degree of sag in that area. The 7045 on my 71 has slightly more sag than the 7082 on the 81 but I have not worried about it one single jot. And unless you are an absolute perfectionist for every detail I would just dial it in when you get it and see what you think rather than worry about a slight amount of sag. I was also considering setting up a second arm for mono but not sure yet if I want to or need to start off down that rabbit hole! Good luck and again congratulations on your purchase of what I am sure you will come to agree is a fabulous vintage DD table! |
Free shipping, it won't be here until 1st or 2nd week of Jan. I'll take photos of the mice within, how do I post them here? I've been reading about using faucet washers or O rings to repair the counterweight sagging rubber. I'll figure something out. What do you think of $350. for an UA-7045 arm (probably also sagging rubber). |
@elliott Voltage change block visual TT-101/QL-10 Post #39 https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/jvc-tt-101-table-speed-issue.822192/page-2 |
voltage block? I'll be taking it apart,, that's for sure, see if any mice lurk within, and, below where I will be putting the 9" arm eventually. I will let everyone know for sure about any internal voltage change block. I probably will order the small 100w 100v wall wart, have it ready, keep or return if not needed, or if it hums/makes something else hum. ........................ anti-skate - long arm I get the point about long arm/less anti-skating, but whatever arm I use, I will check and get it floating properly, even if it needs just a speck! |
noromance thanks for your help. as far as anti-skating, I find it to be a vital component of alignment/imaging/successful involvement. The UA-7082 arm is effective 282mm, 11-1/8", so the arc and skate is different than a true 12". After verifying stylus tracking weight (1.25g now), I match the arm's toy anti-skate indicator to start, then listen, test records, use McIntosh MODE switch to move things side to side, walking back and forth as it is manual thus not the listening position. Then I have my Chase RLC-1 Remote Line Controller with it's Remote Balance from listening position to help refine anti-skate. It's worth the careful work. Then, for imbalanced engineering of occasional LPs, I use the Chase for active balance adjustment from the listening position. I have found a slight balance adjustment can make a very large difference, things just 'open up', various players now located/heard, now that specific track becomes more involving. I find this LP is a big help refining anti-aliasing listening. Have the CD, listen for imaging of the 3 players, then the LP. Note: they don't all 3 play on every track, gotta read the notes for each track. https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Trio-Paco-Meola-McLaughlin/dp/B07DQ32189/ref=tmm_vnl_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= |
chakster
you have a lot of beautiful toys, congrats, and thanks for the help. If the arm is a disaster, and I like the TT81 (and two arm wide deck/dust cover), perhaps two new arms. 60 day return, so cost of postage back is the extent of risk at the moment. |
totem395, you are correct, this is the proper link for TT81 and TT71, http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-81.html the TT101 page http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-101.html there are specific differences between 101, 81, and 71, which, after it gets going, or method of braking, really doesn't effect playing. the oil/spring/damping solutions seem to vary a spec also. .......................... as for the pre-packaged units, I gather: QL-10 and QL-F6 both had the TT101 motor, the QL-7 had the TT71 motor. Some mention of QL-F6 also having .... deck construction of those ...... QL-F6 http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-QL-F6.html i'm glad lewm and others led me to finding more about these. |
@elliottbnewcombjr They TVK are wrong/misleading regarding the TT-71 it is not Bi-directional nor coreless. A lot of what has been said is true the TT-81 is a very good TT. There in my mind still exists some questions as to its design similarity to the TT-101 although many statements have been made. I'll leave it at that since I can't definitely prove it. |
The TT-81 is a 101 sans Double Bi-Directional Servo and with a simplified pitch control system/display ; the functions and features are nevertheless the same : +/- servo, ±6Hz of 440Hz without switching off quartz-lock switch, soft-touch transport keys and electronic braking with reverse-current circuit.Not quite correct as it is the TT-71 that has the soft touch transport keys, the TT-81 has a more "normal" button for the transport keys. |
TT101; TT81; TT-71 text from the above link: 81/71 Very successful LP drives sold as such in Japan and Germany. In other words : the last two markets really alive with high-fidelity... today ! |
I wish we could edit posts like other forums this page says ONLY 101 HAS Double Bi-Directional Servo. Says both 81 AND 71 DO NOT http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-81.html |
This was the stepdown I purchased and it performs flawlessly with a measured voltage on each outlet of fractionally under 100vac. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F223626114208 |
lewm my source of 101/81/71 info. did I read it wrong, or are they wrong/ http://www.thevintageknob.org/VICTOR/TT101/TT101.html |
@totem395 So you think it's better not to tell him anything about the obvious problem with the arm counterweight when i see it ? I'm just trying to help! We do not celebrate Christmas at all, sorry But i hope you're well and Mary Christmas He did not even get the package yet. Anything purchased on ebay can be returned with shipping compensation from paypal, every buyer on ebay is protected 100%. This tonearm is in junk condition, they are $150 in japan in this condition with broken counterweight. The seller can compensate or accept return or offer partial refund. My advice, actually. Or it must be fixed by OP, the rubber part must be replaced. P.S. Finding a perfect sample of UA-7045 is not easy and they're cost much more than the whole turntable he has bought (if the arm is NOS). A perfect used sample of this arm normally goes for $700+ on ebay. |
this cheapo 100watt 100 v converter appeals to me as it adds no box or cords anywhere, just plug in. https://voltage-converter-transformers.com/collections/japan-up-down-voltage-transformers-100v-110v/products/vt-100j-japan-to-usa-voltage-transformer-100-watt I suppose I could use a cord to locate the little 100 watt transformer away from other stuff, which would be similar to using one of these, 200watt version https://voltage-converter-transformers.com/collections/japan-up-down-voltage-transformers-100v-110v/products/vt200j-japanese-100v-110v-step-up-down-transformer-200-watt Any hum issues? Any issue having the little transformer directly into a duplex wall outlet (that also powers 120v stuff via extension cord from the 2nd outlet)? |
JVC factory sheet shows the original was never straight Not sure what do you mean, but i’m talking about straight line of the tube inside the counterweight behind the arm tower. LOOK HERE on the NOS sample. Now look at your sample (do you think it’s normal?). The seller screwed the counterweight to the armtower with no gap in between, in reality is will never be so close when you will balance your cartridge with the right tracking force (depends on the cart weight with headshell, especially MC). When you will move the counterweight away from the arm tower then it will almost fell off. I know what i’m talking about, i had at least 4 different samples of this tonearm on hands. It depends on the condition of the rubber, but when the arm was NEW it was absolutely in line with the armtube, no matter what you can find online, i had a NOS unused sample sealed in the box (not only various used samples). People who think it’s normal may never had more than one sample (i had 3 perfect sample and 1 bad). |
lewm you are absolutely right about proper alignment. I have the tools and experience, I will be especially careful and re-check the longer arm setup. Like construction, measure twice, cut once. I just bought some modern tools, goodbye Shure Sea-Saw tracking force guage, hello digital scale, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9TRSPC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 hello clear plexi block with 2mm grid, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07794JXYZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 hello new alignment disc (asked sister-in-law to give it to me for Christmas). I like that it is the thickness of an LP. I don't need the strobe on the other side, but, a confirmation, and when I help others ... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PH37HWP/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVTQzSDhOUThNS0EyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjY1MDI1OVdUU0MzS0k5V1ZRJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5OTI2MjcyNTBJWEI0TkkwNzZBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfaHFwX3NoYXJlZCZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1 Now I use a 1/8" thick mirror for front view as it 'doubles' any misalignment in the reflection, perhaps I will glue a thin mirror foil onto the alignment disc somewhere. The older you get, the harder it is to put a shim in one side if needed, and tighten those 2 screws. |
lewm
thanks for your help. My notes emphasize the word DOUBLE, i.e. 'Double Bi-Directional Servo'. (my nickname: DBDS) I read about it, only retained that it was the peak of their ideas back then. I noted only 3 TT have DBDS, TT101, TT81, TT71. I also noted that those motors can be found in QL-10, QL-7, and F6. I can't re-create where I got this from. If I am wrong about the TT71, I would like to see something from JVC about it. I am getting the TT81 with this purchase. |
chakster I saw that, I shall see how much it sags when it gets here, I had to replace the rubber of my SME 3009. JVC factory sheet shows the original was never straight https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/etc/ua-7082.html looking closely at your new example, it is not perfectly straight Many JVC arms, birds eye view, the rear portion isn't even a straight line, ....? I am near NYC if a service center can be recommended. |
Chakster Sure with shipping cost the repair is about $1400 for me, that's crazy. TT-81 is step down and i'm pretty sure will be easily beaten by Denon DP-80 However I feel a good working 101 is likely near the Pinnacle of vintage DD table charts and if money was no object or concern I think I would pursue one. Only if you have a warranty after repair is done, because if the problem will show up again then you're broke. BTW, the plinth on the 81 of mine and the the one the OP has bought is massive and very solid weighing in at about 40lb on its own and is a multiple layer construction. Will be hard to beat that plinth. Denon DK-300 plinth is the same quality of even better, at least better finishing and a bit better shape in my opinion. Highly recommended. They made version for two arms too. I think Denon DP-80 is highly competitive to those Victor top of the line turntables. But i like my Victor TT-101, not decided on plinth yet, too many turntables, i can open a little museum here. |
Elliott Too fast. You bought the arm with dead rubber grommet that does not support the counterweight properly, you will have to replace it, the counterweight sag down too much, this is a typical problem for a cheap UA-7045 samples (with this problem they are normally sells as a junk). Look at the picture in the listing with a side view. When you will move the counterweight away from the arm tower the problem will be increased to much higher degree. This is junk, find someone who can replace the rubber part. I’ve seen many samples of UA-7045 tonearms, now i have 7082, all my samples are perfect, if you want to see what is perfect then look at the original arm (not a repaired one) and compare to yours which is almost fell off. Someone might tell you it’s normal to have a certain degree down at the counterweight part, but it’s not! I’m referring to the NOS (never used) sample and the arm pipe is just straight behind the arm tower, no matter where is the counterweight, also even if the additional subweight is address the counterweight part is just straight. My advice is to put that Shure to the recycle bin and look for a decent Victor X-1IIe or X-1II cartridges for this arm. It will be a killer setup, i know it because i have many. |
Chakster I do agree with the sentiments of cost of repair for the 101. Part of the reason I went with a 81. And a 71 but that’s another story. However I feel a good working 101 is likely near the Pinnacle of vintage DD table charts and if money was no object or concern I think I would pursue one. BTW, the plinth on the 81 of mine and the the one the OP has bought is massive and very solid weighing in at about 40lb on its own and is a multiple layer construction. Will be hard to beat that plinth. |
