Good listening skills for musical playback enjoyment include the ability to mask out unwanted sounds and anomalies and reconstruct in our heads things that aren't really heard. Bad listening skills would be to be able to hear things as they really are. If you could do that, you would never hear a phantom center image. You would always correctly interpret all the sounds to be coming directly from each speaker. That would suck. Nothing wrong with learning to better imagine sound that isn't there, except perhaps that it can make us vulnerable to magical claims that are sometimes rather expensive if we don't remain aware of what's going on.
True or False?
Many high-end manufactures deny the benefits of tweaking their components with upgraded power cables, fuses, etc. We all can agree that even the best speakers respond to room placement but is it true or not true in (your experiences) that the better your audio components are, the less they respond to various tweaks?
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Good listening skills for musical playback enjoyment include the ability to mask out unwanted sounds and anomalies and reconstruct in our heads things that aren’t really heard. Bad listening skills would be to be able to hear things as they really are. If you could do that, you would never hear a phantom center image. You would always correctly interpret all the sounds to be coming directly from each speaker. That would suck. Nothing wrong with learning to better imagine sound that isn’t there, except perhaps that it can make us vulnerable to magical claims that are sometimes rather expensive if we don’t remain aware of what’s going on.Psychoacoustic has laws about timing threshold of wavefront from direct, early and late reflections and from back reflections for example... These laws has nothing to do with bad or good listening skills...These laws work for anyone.... If you come to my room you will listen the 3-d holographic as real this illusion is for me.... You apply them and you will listen to a holographic 3-D real illusion which you can control in some way and modify at will....And applying these laws in my room dont make me "vunerable to magical claims".... It is the opposite, because i know how to create any "illusions" out of my mechanical room controls... Then i dont fall for cheap costly acoustical "tweak" sells to those who dont know how ton control their room...I will not name a company here.... 😁 In acoustic, an illusion controlled is the perceived reality.... |
I totally agree about the earlier comment regarding listening skills. Very important. Put aside the issue of listening to different pieces in A/B comparisons without making sure the volume levels are accurately matched before listening. Because this will give the totally false impression that one hears something better on one than the other. But, it is only a volume difference that gives that impression. Now, listening skills. Same as for wine. If you don't know what to taste for, you are going into the comparison missing information. If one doesn't know what a real cymbal sounds like or what a real violin (don't get me started on the differences between violins) sound like versus electronic violin, you wouldn't know if what you are hearing is accurate or not. I would go to concerts, especially live un-amplified concerts, orchestra performances, etc. and take my children and friends. listen and enjoy. go home and listen to analog and digital recordings. They would comment that the cymbals sound tinny or not close to as real as what they heard earlier. Same is true for musical instruments, etc. Ask them to close their eyes at concerts and tell me where the musicians were on the stage. They had no trouble doing that. Listen to recorded playback music and on some systems, they couldn't tell you. On others with the same recordings, they could. They were starting to get a grasp on what to listen for and the differences based on the equipment they were listening to. then they realized that their ear buds, inexpensive systems may sound great as background music, but when they sit listen, it didn't sound right. That is the education of listeners. Same for wine and other things. I had alcoholics in my family and it caused some negative destructive issues in the house. I didn't drink or like wine at all for quite some time. Weddings, parties, etc. yuck. Why are people smiling and acting like they were enjoying themselves drinking this crap. It wasn't until much later that a good friend turned me on to Napa/Sonoma and wine tasting that I realized that I just never had a good glass of wine before and then started on the journey of enjoying and learning what is good and what isn't with regards to the various varietals. Some wine, I just don't care for. Others, well... the issue is also for non-Audiophiles, they aren't really listeners. They are playing music as background music while doing other things. Which is not a bad thing at all. But, they aren't really sitting and listening and would never justify spending the ungodly expensive amounts audiophiles spend on equipment. I listen to a piece of equipment either in my system A/B comparing or in the dealer's store (hopefully in my system). If I'm happy with it enough to purchase it, I rarely, if ever feel the need to tweak it. Again, as I mentioned previously, correcting the room to me isn't a tweak. Upgrading equipment isn't a tweak to me also. That is just getting to that next level of "there" for me. I actually don't consider replacing interconnect cables or speaker cables as tweaks also. vibration control? tweak, fuses? enough people have reported significant improvements to the extent that as an Electronics/Electrical Engineer, I can't dismiss it. If it is in the signal path, then any changes can affect the sound. Not convinced about power supply and rail fuses. But, who knows? anyway, I don't believe that most high end manufacturers deny that certain tweaks work, they are saying that what they designed and installed works great in their view, it isn't cost effective to install $2000 fuses and basically they haven't seen the need to install that fuse, low availability resistors or caps. Or as the case of many manufacturers that provide SE versions later on, they caps or resistors that were used to upgrade from regular to SE version may not have readily available in sufficient quantity and reliable enough in the early versions. enjoy |
Hello, I feel like I am going to get a verbal beat down for this. Every audiophile should try a Puritan PSM156 power conditioner. It doesn’t matter what media you prefer to play. That’s the beauty. It improves every component plugged into it. Each plug is isolated from one another. Most have banks of four. That means the four in the same bank are contaminating each other. Not with the Puritan PSM156. It filters everything it needs to without chocking the sound. I hope you have dealers that let you demo one. It has to be fully broken in which takes 12 days. I call it the 12 days of Christmas. On the twelfth day you get the best gift of all. Unbelievable sound! Stop tweeking until you try this. If you are in the Chicagoland area the store I purchase my Hifi gear from lets you try before you buy. https://holmaudio.com/ I hope all of you get to try this. It’s like lifting a vale off your entire system. |
@minorl - sorry to come in late, to ask you this: So, no, I would not be trying to find the small producer, latest and greatest caps and resistors, If i'm fairly certain that they may not be available later on.Have you had a crossover using the highest quality parts fail on you? If so, what make and model? and did the driver windings fail before the crossover did? |
@hshifi - got one, lovin’ it immensely. 12 days sounds about right, I felt like returning it after day 3. Then I left it on at moderate levels while my wife and I were at work, all day for the next two weeks (I had a month to return it, so I wanted to give it every chance).
I was looking at the In-Akustic filter (more expensive) before a fellow Agoner gave me this great tip off. I will admit that I wasn’t overly happy with the resulting sound at first, however it’s a great asset in my system. I was looking for a power supply that didn’t limit current, which would affect dynamics, did have circuit protection built in, and this has a DC filter as well as what hshifi has mentioned. I have lost absolutely no dynamics, the noise floor has gone dead silent, attack and decay are more pronounced, voices are more holographic and the mid bass is now even more palpable. It is the device that answered all my desires, and delivered qualities that I hadn’t considered. It is a hifi bargain product. The biggest complaint I’ve read about on this forum was loss of dynamics using a power conditioner / filter. This thing leaves the sinusoidal waveform from the incoming power intact, and shunts (shorts) the high frequency hash to ground, well shown in videos. After initial break in, this device has shown no downside, and proves to be a valuable asset that punches hard for the investment. a big ++ to hshifi |
*yawn* Another ’tail-chase’ forum on yet another daze.... When back ’up there’ (pointing back up the responses) that ’audiophiles have infinite hearing’ nearly made me fall out of my chair in mirth..... ...uh huh, Right. In the same way one can have an infinite orgasm; interesting to contemplate, terrible in practicality. Ears of that claimed nature are connected to wetware subject to infinite delusion, housed in an organism that is, technically, Flawed. We age, we die; things wear out, much to our chagrin. Your ’infinite hearing’ allows hearing my laughter over your claim. ...meanwhile, back to Reality....;) |
The more revealing a system is, the more likely you will be able to hear any change when listening closely. The magnitude of the change and its positivity is subject to interpretation and exaggeration. I have tried changes to internal vibration and isolation and the improvement depends on the piece of equipment. I find the turntable to be the most susceptible to external vibration and most improved by isolation. The amps had a more subtle improvement if any with isolation and coupling doesn't make sense because of ventilation concerns, and speakers in between with removing internal vibration by coupling it with a platform to a floor. Anything that touches the equipment or the room acoustics can make a difference. Other hocus focus is environmental, not acousitical, and some may like that as well. It's just not an audio tweak. The degree and value is up to the listener and his budget. |
Townshend Pods under my tube integrated amp was at least as big an improvement as under the turntable. Podiums under my speakers was at least as big an improvement as under the amp. Hard to quantify these things, probably it was greater under the speakers. My turntable motor controller on the other hand responded poorly to pretty much everything I tried, until I tried springs and Pods. Both were clearly better, with Pods being the best by far. So I think it is risky saying it depends which component. It depends more which tweak. Evidence is they all respond well once you find the right tweak. |
@rixthetrick I've never had a crossover I've designed fail on my sorry. When designing myself, I find the best parts I can find (within my price/budget range). Since it would be a one off project, I'm not worried about availability later. I was more speaking about manufacturers that have to make certain about the parts availability and the quality of the parts manufacturer. For example some Classe amps were designed with FETs that a few years later are no longer made. you can't find the FETs to repair the amps. So,unless you find a repair shop that stocked up on the parts before they became unobtainable, then you are screwed. So, an equipment manufacturer can't be blind to where they are getting their parts from and whom they are getting their parts from. There may be better caps and resistors out there, but if there is a serious possibility that in the near future that parts supplier may not be there, then I'm looking elsewhere. Also, as you can see on this web site. Some people love to tweak and adjust. They can't sit still if you paid them to. I can't see myself saying, wow! my system sounds great. I wonder what the change would be if I changed this or that. Added padding, footers, fuses, etc. I only ask myself this question if I feel something is wrong or missing. Then you take the long and sometimes expensive journey into trying to find out what is wrong (component or room) and what it takes to fix it. Don't get me started on room correction. What a nightmare. Get a test CD (Stereophile for example), and a sound measuring device. Run the test in your room at listening position. Look at the frequency response. Gaps, holes, peaks? now what is causing it and what does it take to fix it? not fun. enjoy |
I wish it was true - it would make things a lot less expensive and easier. In my experience I have found its not true. Regardless of budget each adjustment applied works towards achieving a personal goal realized by the listener. Even for the the "better" equipment - which require "better" more expensive esoteric "tweaks." I have also heard "high-end manufactures deny the benefits of tweaking their components", which I find hypocritical because they perform "tweaks" to their models all the time. They refer to it as R&D. As others have pointed out - those are not stock power cables you see on lifts in the show room or at audio shows. Manufacturers switch out for better Chips, Caps, Fuses, Tubes, Internal Cabling, Volume Controls and even Hand Wound All Silver Transformers to name a few; which leads to the launches of new models that they want you to buy. This is true with most all products in general. |
Don’t get me started on room correction. What a nightmare. Get a test CD (Stereophile for example), and a sound measuring device. Run the test in your room at listening position. Look at the frequency response. Gaps, holes, peaks? now what is causing it and what does it take to fix it?It is all relative to the road taken...i had the fun of my life with room correction... I used a mechanical equalizer (32 tubes and recycled plumber pipes with straws for neck all variable and different for volume/lenght/ diameter ratio) which will become part of my audio room...Not an electronical equalizer with a mic. I used the timbre of voice or instrument instead of a set of limited tested frequencies response and my Ears for the feed back instead of a mic... Results: the 2 listening position which are good are large enough and not a very narrow one in millimeter out of which no measure means nothing... I control all aspect of acoustic at will: imaging, timbre perception, soundstage, listener envelopment ,source width... Is it perfect? no Is it good? so good that i "trash" all my headphones (7 pairs) and my average speakers work at their best.... Because like Helmholtz i modified the room response and tuned it to the speakers or instrument which was playing...Not the opposite modifying the speakers or the instrument for the room... You can chose for sure to modify ALSO the speakers response to some set of frequencies but it is good for a last fine tuning, that will NEVER replace room passive material treatment at all, and that will NEVER replace my activation of the pressure zones of the room by mechanical means...Passive materials treatment in small room must be done using in a positive way the timing treshold and reverberations of the small room... The mechanical equalizer is used to mark out or to " buoy" the waves of EACH speaker differently FOR EACH ear, making the brain easily able to recreate 3-d directions and image in the room.... It is was fun and rewarding ....It takes me a month.....It is like tuning a piano... The room geometry and content is like the piano particular form and the pressure zones are like string tightly vibrating or resonant.... At the speed of sound, waves may cross a small room many times before the brain analyse them in some 80 milliseconds....Then acoustic of room is not only a set of passive wall enclosures waiting for the sound to bounce politely on them it is a complex distribution set of pressure engines... I dont need a Smyth realizer headphone anymore... cost: peanuts Inconvenient: impossible to put this unesthetical devices in a living room... The only luxury in audio is not costly gear it is a dedicated room.... A straw can kill a room or transform it completely... Embed everything before upgrading anything... |
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Discussions about cables & interconnects and, for that matter, just about all things audiophilia always have a propensity for generating strong opinions, especially when it comes to speaker cables & interconnects. After all of the proselytizing, hogwash and mean spirited satire from some "experts", however, it always comes down to the same thing. All one can do is a bit of due diligence with respect to researching products of interest in an attempt to become as informed and knowledgeable as possible and, then, go out and do the most important research of all (i.e. critical listening). If those $5,000 speaker cables sound better to YOU than the $300 cables and YOU think they are worth the extra $4,700, buy ’em. |
