I already sold the unit. The last point I listened to it was at the 100 hour mark. Just to reiterate, it is not at all hard for me to see what people like about this player....TRL is doing great work and Paul and Co. are fine people to deal with, it was just not for me.
TRL Marantz Sa-14
After speaking to Paul at TRL I am very curious to hear from those who own this unit what improvements do you hear with the player before and after the mod.
The SA-14 sounds weak in the bass and has no dynamics in comparison to some players like the Sony Scd-1 in stock form. Has anyone compared the TRL Sa-14 to the Sony Scd-1?
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Hey Cuz, I will have a TRL SA-14 here very soon. I hope that I will have a chance to compare to the MARANTZ SA-1. My winter listening is all set. What isolation gizmos if any are being used out there? Is this transport rock solid? Any advantage when using the balance outputs vs. RCA? Jack- Do you think I should send Paul my preamp for his mod? Meitner Switchman pre. |
It is not my intention to change the subject of the TRL Marantz but, I am contemplating sending a Cary 303/100 cdp to Paul at TRL to be modded. Would the already good Cary benefit from a TRL mod or would a better choice be a dac? Has anyone sent a high end cdp such as a Cary to TRL to be modded and with what results? TIA. |
Thanks Oldpet. Actually, I talked to Paul yesterday about a TRL mod for the Cary. He said he could remove un-necessary circuits in the path and clean up some of the digit-itis. I've considered adding a external dac at the same time though, such as a Scott Nixon, Audio Mirror, or an Audio Sector dac before sending the Cary in for a mod. Not sure what to do! Never have heard a TRL mod cdp and am not familiar with their house sound. |
Has anyone sent a high end cdp such as a Cary to TRL to be modded and with what results? They have done over 600 units in the past year. Many very high end units to my knowledge of all makes and models. They have also worked on many very expensive modded units from other modders. I would contact Paul. Remember-they make a $30,000 digital unit themselves. You will be surprised as to what they have found is best to mod in their opinion. It does not always equate with stock unit price. The SA14 in this thread was a $3000 stock unit like your Cary. FWIW, I had a Cary 308 which I liked very much, but even the entry level modded TRL/Sony 595 was signiicantly better IMHO and that was a $150 stock unit. Another opinion to get might be from Empirical Audio as Steve Nugent also has a wide range of experience and a solid rep. Good luck. |
Hi Bradz I don't like to tell people which way they should go, so I'm not going to start now. :-) But - I'm not sure of the costs of the DACs you are considering. The TRL mod costs about $550. Do the DACS compare with the price of the TRL mod? I believe, unless TRL has changed policy, Paul will give your money back if you are not happy with the mod. If you ask Paul for comparisons I'm sure he'll be accurate in doing so. Lkdog has comparitive info on the TRL mods. (Cary 308 vs TRL Sony) I can say, that the Player is detailed/extended in its frequency presentation/dynamic, yet smooth. I really enjoy my CDP. As I've said to others It would take alot to convince me to part with my TRL SA-14. Bottom line= Ask Paul how he thinks the Cary will stack up. I'd trust his judgement. But that's just me :-) I really hope you can work through you decision making. best paul |
Hi, I am new here; but now that I have a Marantz SA-14 v.2 myself, I think I'll give my opinion. I bought my (ex demo) SA-14/2 over the Internet from SaleHifi; a Hong Kong eShop. It arrived a week ago. So right out of the box -- with to cold of transport at 10kms above Siberia still in its bones -- I hooked it up, and had a listen. Yes... beautiful rich sound; but the low highs put quite some pressure on my ears. After 24h in the cosiness of my home, and Zappa on repeat, that was almost gone: everything was more in balance. I have been breaking it in for a week now: Mahler V (Concertgebouw orchestra), Zappa 'Hot Rats' and Cathy Berberian (Berio; Folk Songs and Kurt Weill) on repeat. That aught to tame the beast! It is getting better every day; not as spectacular as the first few days, but still... If there is one CD that justifies buying the SA-14, then it is 'Sure thing' (the Jerome Kern Songbook) by Sylvia McNair and André Previn. Ah... listen to track 10: "All the things you are" Splendid. No... wait: listen to that phrase at 1:05 min: 'you are the breathless hush of evening...', how tender and fragile that 'hush'. Yes folks: piano and female voice; the Marantz excels with that! The SA-14 is a perfect RBCD-player, that -- by the way -- also plays SACDs. The other day I hooked up my old CD-player again: Tjoeb '98. And yes: all the things that are on the CD are shown by the Tjoeb as well. But you really have to listen quite carefully. The SA-14 presents the music, the emotion with a sovereign ease. It has a quietness over it, that is hard to explain. It is by far the most inaudible player I've ever heard. And that is only on plain vanilla RBCD! Hmmmm.. I love this machine! Even my wife can hear the difference with the old Tjoeb. Oh... you all know that the SA-14 is out of production. But SaleHiFi.Com still has it on their price list; maybe they still can get hold of one. So if you are interested: drop them an e-mail. But please note: it might be a 230V / 50Hz machine! Question: Is anyone of you guys using it as a SACD player? |
Question: Is anyone of you guys using it as a SACD player? Sounds like you really love the SA14 v2. I know TRL thinks the build quality is very very good and it is a great platform for modding. I listen to 95% Redbook. Huge range of quality of recordings and mastering. The SA 14 makes all of them listenable and the well mastered ones are stunning. SACD can be even better depending upon the mastering. The SACD's that Paul engineered I have heard are wonderful. Other SACD's are not so great, but that comes with the territory. |
I didn't buy it Joe. Whomever did has 50 hours less break in ... :) BTW, did you guys see Clio09's review of the TRL/Audio Mirror DAC? http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1130770464&read&3&zzlClio09&& I wish that the pro reviews were this well written and had as much useable detail as to the sound ... Well done, Clio09! Jack |
OOPs, this was the thread that I was trying to link to, Clio09's review http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rdgtl&1130740247&read&3&zzlClio09&& Sorry gang. Great job, Clio09! Jack |
My SA-14 arrived in my system yesterday. Let the break-in begin! My comment is that the SA-14 was boxed very professionally by TRL. I almost hated to unpack the player because the craftmanship in packing was so well done. I know that sounds crazy but I was amazed. I got over it and put the player in the system. I'm leaving it on 24/7 so I should be good to go in about 3 weeks. I will check on it at about the half way point in about 10 days and report my thoughts. Bob |
This discussion is so repetitious and boring. I had a Marantz SA-14 TRL and it was very good. I recently bought a preowned a stock Marantz SA-1 and compared. Hate to say it but the Marantz SA-1 smoked the SA-14 TRL in every aspect. I was in the room with four other listeners and we all agreed a Marantz SA-1 is superior in all facets. So my SA-14 TRL is getting moved to the bedroon and the Marantz SA-1 is in my main system. The essence is try to find a preowned Marantz SA-1 and you'll understand and justify why it was a $7500 player. |
I did listen and it was very much like I expected. It sounded like it needed to be broken in! There was a fuzzy quality to the sound that will probably go away in a couple of days. After experiencing the break-in of two digital amps, I know that in two weeks the unit will sound nothing like it did directly out of the box. I must say that the TRL test disk was very impressive. The bass on track two rearranged some of my vital organs! Bob |
Hchi. I left my Marantz SA-1 in stock but there are mods that can be done with it. Have not heard the mods with the SA-1. But I can tell you the truth that a stock Marantz SA-1 destroys a TRL Marantz SA-14. It's unfair because the Marantz SA-1 was a $7500 rarely discounted unit verse the $3000 highly discounted SA-14. Talk to Marantz America and they'll tell you that from a design and sound perspective it does not get any better than a stock Marantz SA-1. I have a MAC402 amp, Audio Research Reference II preamp,Marantz SA-1 (still have the SA-14 TRL but used in another system, and Wilson 7 speakers, AQ Kiliminjaro spkr cables, Kimber Select interconnects,a and BMI Cables Hammerhead Gold/ag silver power cables. Very, very satisfying two channel system. *Here is a little tid bit on Marantz SA-1 mod if you want to go that road. I personally say leave this classic SA-1 stock. And Marantz America agrees with me. The Marantz SA-1 is a World Class -No Holds Barr Design SACD/CD player intended to be the Flagship of the line. It has been around for nearly 5 years and has already been the target of modifications. Audiocom in the UK was probably the first to really hotrod this player by executing improvements to jitter performance and power supply resulting in a much improved performance. Retailing for over $7500 USD great sound is expected but the intriguing question was always, how much further could after market modifications take it? Fortunately, a curious gentleman was interested in taking the SA-1 to new limits and was willing to guinea pig his player for our R&D. By the way, we appreciate his patience throughout the processÂ…Thanks. Searching for increased performance is the area of our business I enjoy the most! "Tweaking" we call it, and I love it! Nothing like popping the hood of an already high end player looking to turn it into something truly spectacular. What can one expect form a stock SA-1? "Musical" comes to mind. The stock sound is pleasantly smooth. Music was round as if we added a very euphonic SET amplifier to our system. Some may approve whole heartily but we were simply disappointed. I believe that resolution is the key to musical involvement and euphonism is just a distorted coloration there to mask the sound of possibly associated inferior products to make things nice and listenable. If I were to rate the player in terms of overall performance with 100 being the best we have had in our system I would give it a 65. SorryÂ…but this player was to my ears a wet rag lacking in any resolution and dynamics while the pace and timing were not exemplary. So what to do? I have learned and experienced for quite some time now that the output stage is generally responsible for killing resolution and squashing dynamics. I must give credit to my friend Ric Schultz of Electronic Visionary System who has always preached this to me and which I now always focus on because he is absolutely correct here. Removing as much of the filtering and gain stage as possible really allows the music to flow through and what you hear is greatly improved detail, extension, slam, and micro dynamics. Music becomes incredibly palpable and present. The SA-1 has so much output stage or what they call the HDAM's that it is no wonder that it lacks any sort of resolution. After a bit of R&D we decided to remove the entire top PCB containing the HDAM's and the 4 TDA1547's. We actually kept just 2 dac chips and literally cut the PCB to ~ 3" X 3". The 2 TDA1547's are now buffered and sent directly to 2 Audio Consulting silver coupling transformers. The digital interface was re-routed to use only one dac chip per channel rather then 4 thus creating a much purer and direct signal path. The results were incredible!! Resolution, resolution, and more resolution!! This was a phenomenal step of the mod because now we could here the potential of this beast. Let's move to the next stage. The clock circuit was the next area of improvement and it goes without saying we replaced the stock part with the superb Superclock 2(33.38688 MHz). Lowering the jitter has such a profound effect on sound because the hard edged fundamentals now take on a clear and distinct characteristic. Music locks into focus and spatial cues are more prominent and easier to hear. Also, sound takes another step forward in dynamics bringing more energy to the room like live music. No need for more praise as we feel the Superclock 2 is quite proven with any player at any price. It is now routine to improve power supply capacitors, internal wiring, and adding Bybee filters. All of these stages of modifications simply deliver much more lifelike qualities. Uniquely, we only use the Bybee filters in the signal path where we hear much greater inner resolution and clarity with no drawbacks in dynamics or pace. A rare case of more is actually better!! The Bybees are superb! Something new for the Marantz was a full C37 lacquer treatment to all the IC's. This produces a stunning improvement! It seems to add a natural more vivid presentation with improvements to resolution too. Why? I really do not know entirely but Mr. Dieter Ennemoser in a way claims it has certain properties our ears and brains relate to thus we hear better sound. Whatever it is I am a believerÂ… Hearing really is believing. So, that's essentially the modification and from the picture below you can see it is a completely different player now. Completely different looking and absolutely better sounding. I would confidently rate the modded Marantz at a stunning 105 because it is the finest sounding mod we have accomplished to date. Take your Marantz and mod itÂ…you will be shocked at the improvement!!! Installation Please contact Reference Audio Mods by e-mail at sales@referenceaudiomods.com or by phone at (909)353-8948 for installation. |
But I can tell you the truth that a stock Marantz SA-1 destroys a TRL Marantz SA-14. Lawyerman- I am a little confused. You state the above, then you provide a lengthy quote from RAM it appears that states how lousy the SA 1 is. I guess Kyle and Doug at RAM don't agree with your asessment of the SA-1, but they are modders and that would not be good for business to like a stock unit I guess :> Like I said, different opinions make this hobby interesting. At least your posts have certainly helped this "boring and repetitious" thread. |
Ok Lawyerman- You certainly convinced me that the Marantz SA-1 is a contender. However, I do not share your opinion that the player is "lame" in stock form. Naturally I have not heard one modified by RAM but sitting next to an analog system set up, the stock unit was very impressive. Like so many things out there a player can be a terrific performer or a plain shoe that just does not fit irrespective of price. I would imagine for those folks who are in this group any upgrade will be an improvement if they are committed to the player. Most of us know that Sony and Marantz added unique output stages that when removed improvements abound. I completely agree that this player should remain in stock form. This is the very point why some of us on this thread share in a common respect and admiration for Paul's sense of economic scale. The TRL SA-14 may not be the best player out there but it certainly is impressive enough. This is a fun hobby when an item's performance can be raised to an unexpected level with very little investment as opposed to the opposite. The TRL mod in this case is more sensible don't you agree? |
Lawyerman: Regarding your comment that Marantz discouraged the TRL mod: I have never heard of any company recommending that one modify their product, especially an expensive one. Here is a perfect example: I owned a stock pair of the Matrix B&W800's. I then heard a pair that Dan D'Agostino of Krell had modified to be driven actively bi-amped. The change took and excellent speaker and made it debatably one of the "best speakers on the planet." I contacted B&W and they said not to do it. I did it; and WOW, what a fabulous transformation. I will never be able to afford a better speaker. (The only one that gave mine a run-for-the money was over $75,000) Just my opinion, Richard (an SA14 owner) |
Lawyerman, Thanks for your comment. You do have a nice rig there. Hearing quite a few WP7, and a couple MaxxII and X2 combos, although I haven't heard MAC and WP7 combination before, I guess it is good. I currently have one SA-14 being modded by TRL. It is good to know SA-1 is a strong contender/player in stock form. I was wondering whether SA-1 could be further improvement by mod because (to me) TRL's mod, though to be revolutionary, seems to be more 'complimentary' compared to other modders. What I mean is that other modders seem to prefer replacing many parts, output stages, and/or even almost the whole entire circuitry. In contrast, TRL's approach seems to preserve the strengths of the player and augment them, then other 'secretive' mods to rectify shortcomings in order to bring the player to the final augmented state. As you have said, SA-1 has a quite 'complete' design with only few minuses, I wonder and presume SA-1 may benefit more by TRL mod philosophy because most of its strength would be preserved and/or further augmented (if possible) and the weaker area would brought to the level as the rest of the player. Do you find SA-1 or TRL14 to be sensitive to PCs and ICs? By the way, welcome to the group! Jack, I guess we are on the same page. :) If you do get a SA-1, I would love to hear your input as well. By the way, if you get a chance, please swing by TRL and take a listen of my SA-14. I ask Paul to incoporate a few more 'tweaks' and replace one part in mine,which is being burn-in during the weekend for eval. If you get to hear it, please let me know of your impression (either good or bad). Thanks. |
To clarify the little bit remarks on the Marantz SA-1 I am dead set against the Modification. I have not heard the Mod but doing research and Marantz America's advice to leave the SA-1 stock is your best bet. Both from a present owner and anybody that may buy one preowned in the future. Marantz America told me that the SA-1 is highly sought afte in the Asian market. And they said even 10,20 years down the line audiophiles will be seeking to find an SA-1. Only 1000 units were ever made, and less than half were shipped to the USA for Marantz America distribution. Now they were not my words that the stock SA-1 was lame. They were the words copied and pasted from "Reference Audio Mods" website about the Modification. Of course they are going to say the Mod is going to make the SA-1 sound fabulous. They charge over $2900 for the basic Mod and if you go the full mod from "Reference Audio Mod" you can speand over $8000 which would include a nice wood cabinet for the SA-1. So to reiterate the Marantz SA-1 stock alone is incredible. And what I am trying to say is that you can take a full modded up Marantz SA-14 and it will still not come close to a stock SA-1. Again it is unfair to make the comparison regarding the Marantz SA-1 was a no holds barr design to begin with at $7500 msrp. While the Marantz SA-14, SA-14mk.2, SA-12si, SA-11 were all in the $3K price range and massively produced by Marantz. Plus the SA-1 was so limited very few were discounted while the step down SA-14, SA-11 .. were found new under $2400. Talk to Marantz America (Co inventors with Sony). Actually Philips invented the hardware and Sony the software , just like over 20 years earlier with the 16 bit CD technology. Marantz America will tell you honestly that SACD technology doesn't get any better that what is in the SA-1. And that whoever has one should be lucky and hold on to it, for the future demand will be very high. |
Lawyerman- Of course Marantz will tell you that- what are they supposed to say? All companies will claim their flagship is SOTA and the benchmark for years to come :) Glad you are enjoying your SA 1. I see from previous threads that you state you sold a $22K Wadia setup for your SA1 and you have a $200K system. You must really like it. Surprisingly, there are a couple SA 1's sitting on AGON right now pretty cheap and have been there for weeks.. Somebody should grab one. LaFish is a pretty reputable seller. By the way, when did you get your SA14 modded by TRL? Did you listen to it stock before you sent it on to TRL? Many people tend to think the SA14, either version 1 or 2 pretty much barked in stock form. What version do you have? |
Howard: The SA-1 is good in its stock form, but in my experience, I'm not going to rush out to buy one ... I'm quite happy with my TRL modded SA-14. :) Other players and DACs have came along that have surprised the TRL mod team, like Tony's (Clio09) Audio Mirror DAC. Having heard it myself, I couldn't believe how good it was, (even stock). Anyone looking for a DAC in the $500-$600 price range should definitely include the Audio Mirror to their short list. Then, of course, send it off for the final finishing touches. Once modded, the Audio Mirror isn't far from the SA-14. This is based on my first hand experience in TRL's listening room, with full TRL cables, the TRL ST-225 integrated and Paul's Magico speakers. Transport used that time was one of Paul's modded Masterlinks. My point? Since TRL has done so many mods this past year, it is quite possible that they will find other players that may not be all that impressive stock that will mod into a very good player. Since they are in this position, I'll take their word on it ... And, of course, Howard, I'll be happy to send along any info that comes my way ... :) I have already planned out my week so that I can have time to drop by the shop and hear your player as well as a few others. Best, Jack |
Lithojoe- Which player beats the TRL SA-14?? I will let you know. My plan is to compare it to two Sony players, one is modified and the other is in stock form. After that I have a friend who does have the stock Marantz SA-1 that I mentioned earlier (love this player). I refuse to enter into a "shootout" with other players in the mix. The biggest problem is there is no standard testing procedure in place. If we were to select one important criteria for determining the superiority of a product perhaps we can use the "Neutral" term. But the closest I have ever heard a "neutral system" was at Sony headquarters testing facility where I heard a special crossoverless design speaker system in an anechoic chamber. It was so impressive that I could not describe the sound to you. Its nothing I have ever heard both or since at home or at a live concert event. Therefore I have concluded that this must be what a neutral system should be. |
Jack, I think the combination of the TRL Audio Mirror with the TRL Alesis Masterlink is one that is a match made in heaven. Having said that I have also heard the TRL Audio Mirror with a Sound Odyssey modified Music Hall CD-25. The result was very good, but a bit more analytical than my ears would prefer. I wasn't aware Paul was using a modified Alesis in his listening set-up as well. Now with the TRL ST-225 amp on the way I guess I need to look into Magico speakers. I swore I would never sell my Spendor's, then again I swore I would never give up my tube amp. Technically I still haven't, but I fear the ST-225 is eventually going to nudge it out of my rotation if indications from others who are using the ST-225 is a gauge for how good it is. Tony |
Tony, They used the Alesis Masterlink (modded) as a transport because that is what you were going to mate your Audio Mirror with. It makes sense that if they have what you are using as a transport, they should use it as well. :) I can't wait to hear your impressions of the TRL ST-225. You're using the TRL cables too, right? I know what you mean about never leaving tubes. I didn't think I've ever say that either ... :) Best, Jack |
I picked up a used Black Marantz SA-14 v1 last week. I sent it off to Paul @ TRL yesterday. I currently own a TRL Sony 2000ES, which I have been quite happy with, but have been watching this discussion thread for the last 8 months enviously. In a recent burst of upgrade-itis, I also picked up a used Conrad-Johnson 17LS preamplifier as well. Paul said that the Marantz SA-14 should be quite a step up from the Sony. Looking forward the improvement in my system. I did a brief comparison of the SA-14 in its stock form versus the TRL Sony 2000ES, before I sent it out. No more than one hour switching between the two units. The SACD performance of the SA-14 was OK, good detail but a different sound than the 2000ES. Didn't form a conclusive opinion but probably gave the nod to the 2000ES. The Redbook performance of the SA-14 was another matter. I found it to be thin and definitely less musical than the 2000ES. Not that I expected the SA-14 Redbook performance (in stock form) to be anything to write home about. So now the wait, shipping from Canada to US, modification, shipping back to Canada, 500 hour burn in. If all goes well, I should be able to celebrate the New Year in style! Will provide an update once I get the Marantz unit back from TRL. |
Latest News- Just received my TRL Marantz SA-14v.2 and I am happy to say its a pleasant surprise. Its performance is far better than the TRL 2000es in some respects and with time I am sure other areas will fall into place once its broken in (200 hours). What a sound! Are most of you running the player thru the balance outputs? |
Hello Cuz, It's not going to sound "right" until it reaches around 300 hours. that's when the bottom end and lower mids fleshed out for me and the image focus tightened up dramatically. Mine kept sounding better up until around 550 to 600 hours, although, to be honest, I didn't keep that close of tabs on the hours after the 300 hour mark. After the 300 hour mark, I just sat back and enjoyed the music. I still find myself staying up later than I should ... Keep us informed, LA45 and Shuang. Best, |
Jack- LOL! Kitchen almost done. Had turkey day here and we broke in the new oven. I am broke now so doing cheap tweaks :) Kitchen remodels are the crack-cocaine of today's women. Am wondering about power conditioning for the TRL SA14. The Audio Magic Mini Digital looks interesting. As for the tweaks-I changed the coupling material between my speaker stands and my ACI Jaguar monitors, and also am now using two ziplock bags of sand on top of the TRL SA 14. Both made a difference, especially switching to Blu Tack underneath the ACI Jags. System sounding great-wish I could buy the TRL power amp. I think the Jags would enjoy a bit more juice than 150 x 2. |
Listening to the D225 now and spoke to Brian Weitzel today about my initial impressions. Right now the low end is performing fantastic. The mid-range is coming around and the vocals are exquisite. The high end is a bit harsh but after a 100 hours or so will smooth out. This amp does not require the full break-in as it was the prototype and has undergone quite a bit of testing at TRL. Some tweaks were done at the last minute and these are the parts that require break in. One thing for sure, this amp drives my Spendors in a way the Cary V12i could not. That is no knock on the Cary, just the reality of 225 watts solid state versus 50 watts triode. The fact that my preamp seems to be passing a signal to the D225 even with the volume turned down completely resulting in my hearing faint music coming from the speakers puzzles me (not a D225 issue). Also, I'm still playing around with the best set-up for the D225 and may actually move it to a maple butcher block amp stand (Brian's suggestion) to see what difference this might make in sound. Obviously my weekend is booked. I'll probably start another thread to report back. One last note, this thing is a monster weighing in at 65 lbs. and measuring somewhere in the neighborhood of 21" x 24" x 4". |
Jack/LK, Thanks for giving me the timeframe. Compared to a fully broken in TRl/Sony 2000es, the TRL/Marantz SA-14 v2 sounds like a lightweight instead of a middleweight Sony. So knowing there is a way to go is encouraging since in most other aspects this thing sounds more musical. I am leary placing anything on top of the Marantz except for a soft sexy cloth. I have a tuning set of feet (my own design) that works fine under my SET also. But thats me. Clio09- Is this the solid state amp that Paul claims sounds better than his previous top of the line tube amp? Look forward to hearing your final impressions. Jack--I am losing sleep all over again. Late night fun is back and the player is gorgeous sexy to look at. I have been switching back and forth between rca and balanced and at this point they are both very close in sound with a slight edge to the rca. BIT is 230 hours counting... |