I am a digital junky, so I have been thru well over a dozen players in the past 12 months. My favorite is the APL 3910. I just bought the TRL Sony 595 from the Tsunami auction, and will receive next week. Any one here have experience with this machine? I TT Paul from TRL and he said he is still shaking his head from disbelief on how good this puppy sounds. I am impatient, so would love some feedback. I also love the fact it is a 5 disc changer. Could it be a world beater? I have TT a person who sold his Cary 303/200 after burning this puppy in.
Trust me, Jay, the C2000ES TRL is much better than their 595 mod. Better dynamics, resolution, detail and naturalness.
They also have started modifying the Toshiba 3960, which shows promise. They say that the video is very good as is the audio. I'll likely sit and wait for the next batch of Marantz SA-11's to hit the docks and have them mod it for me ...
Jes45, I am taking your suggestion on the GT-200's, and if you love vinyl sounding digital, please try the APL. It is truely the BEST I have ever heard. I have not heard the 30k TRL, but if the 595 was almost as good, ya gotta get the 3910. If you do ot love, I will buy it from you. I am that serious.
I have read alot of posts here and I see here and there that folks cant believe a mod can out-perform a $20,000 player. One post got a converstaion going that it is a $50.00 unit to produce, instead of asking how a inexpensive unit can sound so good, shouldnt more be asking "what the hell am I thinking paying $20,000 for a player?" Who is more insane? the person who buys a cheaper model and tweaks it for good sound, or the guy who spends a pile of money for a player...and better yet how much does that $20,000 player actually cost to make?, I would bet a FRACTION of the high price.
Chad, Hell! We're all insane, this hobby defines compulsive. I asked what $20k players don't sound as good as the TRL595. It's a reasonable question--I'm only asking that people back up their claims. I notice nobody has answered. I've never heard a $20k player so I wouldn't know, and my guess is that the guys making the claims haven't either. I love high value products. I sold my separates in favor of an integrated that is 35% of the price. Not because it was cheaper, but because I thought it sounded better. Nothing would make me happier than to find a cd source for $700 that would stomp $4000 modded players. Recently, I had a long conversation with a very respected modder and I asked him how close his mod for under $1000 would come to the Exemplar. He said his mod was outstanding, but there was only so much he could do with a certain amount, and that I couldn't realistically expect his mod to be as good as one that cost more than 4 times as much. I appreciated his honesty, and I understand that everything can be made better with money. As to your other point, we might all do better buying a boombox and putting the rest of our money in an income fund, but that is a matter of choice.
Which $20K players/combos are not as good as the TRL/Sony 595? Well, I had a EMM Labs (Meitner) combo in my system for over a month (and it was already broken in). That's not quite $20K, but it isn't too far off. (I have first hand experience. How many nay-sayers can say the same?)
I'm sure that you've already read Speakerarts post above ... how much does a APL Phillips cost?
I've already covered the differences between the two in past posts here at A'Gon. Do a search ...
Jes45, That's impressive if you think it beat the Meitner. I'll look for the posts where you compare it with the TRL. I must admit that you have me very curious abot the player, and the only way I will ever really know is to hear it in my system. Reasonable people can hear the same components and come to different conclusions, but I find it hard to believe the TRL would be in the same league with Meitner, Exemplar, APL, etc. but it's certainly possible. There is really only 1 way to know.
I think the only way that a cheaper player with a cheaper mod can beat more expensive players and more expensive mods is if the design philosophy is different.
If you look at military fighter jets, the last generation of planes produced by the Soviet Union were frighteningly good, matching or outperforming U.S. aircraft (F15, F16) in many dimensions, yet cost a fraction of the price. Whereas U.S. aircraft were crammed with bleeding edge technology, the Soviet planes were more selective and placed more of an emphasis on optimization of older technology. This is not a perfect analogy but perhaps it helps to make a point.
I do not know how TRL does its mod. Paul's years of experience with studio recording technology and very expensive audio gear ($30k cd players, $100k tube amps, etc) suggests that he knows what great sound is like and also what goes into the most premium high end components. Has he found a way to optimize the sound of the little Sony 595/2000ES and the Marantz SA11/14 so that they compete with the all-out mods albeit with a less parts and labor intensive approach? The thinking would be that the Marantz SA11/14 in particular are flagship products and are backed by teams of qualified engineers - there must be many good things to the design that can sound much better with a few judicious tweaks. Is a 100% different output stage necessarily better? The same applies to other aspects of the mod. I don't have the answers, but this is the only way that a $595 mod can make sense.
The only ways to know for sure are to a) dissect the TRL mod, b) do more head-to-head comparisons of TRL modded players with similar ones from APL/Exemplar/Modwright/RAM/etc. Ideally, the TRL Marantz SA11/14 would be faced off vs the top players from the other modders since the Marantzes sounds better than the Sonys.
On my part, I have a Marantz SA14 that TRL is modding. I took a leap of faith. I have a good feeling that it will turn out well. I admit it would be even more comforting if there were more info on A and B above. My other personal view is that I am confident about the quality of APL products (which undertake a massive reengineering of the stock products) so I may give Alex a try as well.
True, almost everyone posts a glowing review. Ideally you listen before and after the mod. Before the mod, pick out what you dislike about the sound, write it down if you have to (esp since the mod + break-in takes so long and you can forget!). Otherwise, its easy to get caught up in what you already liked from the stock player once you start reviewing the modded player.
I've had a few surprises with digital. I expected my Cary 303 to kill a friend's nOrh CD-1 (in my system). It didn't! I got a NOS Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8 to replace the more pedestrian Siemens 7308 but instead found that it sounded edgier and less smooth. Funny stuff.
TVAD, Good point, but on the same topic, one can reverse your post and ask the same about $20,000 units, the owners of these also convince themselves, and would not openly admit a tweaked player sounded as good...they would be more of a fool than the folks who modded units.
I would tend to agree that people generally will utilize self hypnosis or auto suggestion in forming their impressions of their new mod that is in direct correlation to the amount they spent on the investment. No one wants to say that the 3000,4000,or 5000$ investment they just spent wasn't the "best they have ever heard". LOL!
This is where professional reviews can sometimes help, but these are usually very cautious and qualified.
I do think, in general, however, that most mods of digital and other audio units do make marked improvements so the user is very pleased. I also think that the ongoing debates as to what mod is the best sounding (TRL, RAM, APL, Empirical, Modwright) is probably just an exercise analogous to hearing about people's gourmet eating habits, albeit an interesting debate. All of these modders create extraordinary outcomes on their flagship model mods of the day. It is kind of like Aunt Bee and ladies at the Annual Pie Contest on Mayberry RFD. But, as we all know, everyone does not like the same "best" cherry pie recipe.
I guess the question (and solution) for me gains focus when I consider the reports on modder ethics, service relationships, analysis of initial stock plus mod investment cost/benefit, and the general ideal "house" sound of the modder.
In the end, there are a lot of choices for the end user and that is a good thing. People simply just need to do their homework.
Well, I know what works for me, but my opinion and info is just one of many - if it provides something useful to someone else then great. Everybody has a different system, a different room, and a different set of ears. Everbody also has different definitions as to what is a reasonable cost. One thing I know for sure, this is a crazy hobby.
You're right about different rooms! My system sounded quite different when I moved to a new home even though none of the components changed! More tweaking to come I guess...
A shootout comparison of the TRL 595 with the similarly priced APL Pioneer 563 has been posted on AA at: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/209929.html
Granted the article was apparently authored by the APL owner. It would be interesting if the TRL owner also decided to post his/her own independent findings.
My thoughts exactly. RAM has a "shootout" post on their website forum right now where all RAM units (including their entry level units) best every single APL unit. Of course in that "shootout" the writer was a RAM employee and it was his web forum :)
I have no issue with someone saying they like Unit A better than Unit B (everyone has a right to their opinion based upon listening preferences); just don't portray that it is an objective comparision.
I concur TVAD that the opinions of both owners would be preferable. I hope the TRL owner will eventually come forth and either corroborate the extant findings, or voice an alternate opinion of the outcome.
TVAD, I read the report a couple of times. If I interpreted the shootout findings correctly, the TRL owner may be concurring with the author. Unfortunately mine is only an inference, as accurate as anyone's.
I just reread the report and I appear to be wrong. There is no indication that the owner of the TRL was absent or present and whether he/she agreed or disagreed with the findings.
The author indicated that his friend with the TRL was not happy with the results and one can only assume that he took his TRL home in total shame and disgust. His wife has no doubt left him by now, he was fired from his job, and he is living in a box underneath an interstate in California somwhere by now. Worse yet, he has that lousy TRL unit he has to listen to.
That is the unfortunate and inevitable sad result of losing a shootout.
Come on guys, the TRL 595 is a good player, the 563 is better IMHO, and the 3910 is just so much better, in every regard, you TRL guys are NUTZ IMHO. Yes, I own BOTH. Wanna come over and compare? See for yourself? Huh?
If you guys are interested, and to make it fair, I can build one Pioneer 563a machine and send it to all TRL owners who want to hear it, regardless of which TRL modded unit they have. The only expense will be the shipping cost to send the Pioneer to the next person on the list. It is very light, so I guess it will not cost much. Owners of other ALL SOLID STATE (no tubes) modded players are also welcome to participate. I will be ready with 563a to roll in about 1-2 weeks from now as I dont have any readily available.
I guess 3 days will be enough time for evaluation so the policy will be to ship the Pioneer to the next guy on the list on the 4th day, given it is not weekend or holiday of course. Please email me your contact and shipping information if you are interested and I will put you on the list. First come, first serve. I guess this will be available for continental US addresses only. I trust your honesty 100 %.
TVAD, are you a lawyer? I can neither confirm nor deny what I do not know. Whenever I discover I have made a mistake in a post, like I did above, I correct it. LKDOG, what you describe is a typical outcome of acute DAC (Degenerative Audiophilic Dementia) discussed elsewhere on these pages. Look for the study by Dr. Schmaltzenstein on the dreaded DV-50 thread. Smilin, good to read from you again. Hope your devices will be featured in some upcoming shootouts soon. What will be needed is participants that do not own any of the disputed devices. Perhaps create a true 'blind' testing environment? >
Well, at least you have a sense of humor and don't actually take these pseudo shootouts seriously. I actually can accept somebody like Steve (711smilin) who may be off the hook a bit, but is honest in his undying APL allegiance versus anythng else. He doesn't bother with any stinking shootouts :)
Hey TVAD, no offense taken. Was joking as well. But I still wanted to edit/soften my append post facto, and the darn thread wouldn't let me. LKDOG: As for shootouts, the only thing worse than a shootout. . . is a missed shootout. It looks like I may arrive in San Francisco on June 19th, 24 hrs after the upcoming RAM/APL Grand Jostle. Darn it again! I was hoping I could alleviate my DAC attack, at least temporarely ALEX: very generous offer. If I qualified I would take you up on the offer. But I've got only an EAD T1000 and EAD D7000 Mk3 combo, vintage 1994. I mean, my CDP is sooo goood can trounce just. . . oh well never mind! Besides, seriously, you already know the device I am waiting and drooling for. . .
Interesting offer to folks, but we all know that owners of any gear are rarely objective. I have already talked to and heard from several folks who prefer certain TRL units to various iterations of APL units. And vice versa. That being said, these are all good units and in an elite class. There are just various opinions at this level of quality and it is phenomenological. I would be interested in your offer as a TRL unit owner, but would be more interested in hearing your flagship loaded 3910 out of curiosity. The offer for the Pioneer would be fun to hear also, though. I have a TRL Marantz SA14 that I am breaking in. You can email through Agon if you wish.
I would agree it is all subjective and system dependant. It also depends on what revision the APL unit was when compared to TRL.
Anyway, you will be second on the list. I have TRL595 and Exemplar3910 owner who has secured #1 already...:-)
I will contact all on the list when the 563a is ready for shipping.
The little Pioneer gives a good idea of how the Denon sounds. You will just have to imagine a similar sound on steroids which has more natural and refined character due to the tube stage inside. If you end up liking the little 563a and continue to be interested hearing the Denon, I will try to arrange audition. Ive promised a rolling APL3910 to many people, so I will include you on that list as well.
I would agree it is all subjective and system dependant. It also depends on what revision the APL unit was when compared to TRL.
Yes, all modders are continually enhancing their work. People like different things. At a certain level of quality, it really just comes down to what a particular person idealizes in sound reproduction. I would never try and convince anyone that Modded Unit A is the best for all people, or absoultely better than Modded Unit B.
The variety makes life interesting for us end users.
How about just putting me on the list for the "rolling" APL 3910 when one becomes available for demo use. I am curious to hear the sound signature of the unit sometime for fun. I live in midwest so if/when one is on tour in the area keep me in mind.
If I'm reading the information on the APL site correctly the 3910 is $3500 versus $700 or so for the TRL 595. Let's assume that the 3910 takes you 100% of the distance as far as sound goes and the TRL 595 is 70% of the distance. Are you saying it is worth $2800 to go the additonal 30%? If you do say that fine, I respect your opinion as an owner of the 3910, but for $700 it just makes the TRL 595 that much better a deal IMO. If you think the percentages are different let me know your opinion. I'm sincerely interested and while I don't have the TRL 595, I do have a component modded by TRL that cost me 60% less than the 3910. So I know, like, and trust their work. I find the whole subject interesting and want to know more about APL from someone who has dealt with them.
I would like to be put on the list for the 3910. I have a TRL modded component that I would like to compare it to. I am interested in your work and appreciate your comments here. Thanks
I've been absent from these threads for a while, but I've wondered about your thoughts on the Modwright Denon vs. the APL3910. I can bring over a Modwright DVP-9000ES if you want to do a comparison listening sometime late in June.
Alex, Put me on the list for the rolling ALP unit.Although Im not a current TRL owner,my TRL modded Marantz SA14 should be finished and broke in by the time my turn comes up...I to am most interested in the best ALP has to offer....Thanks for the generous offer.
Clio09, the apl 563a is 700, the trl 595 is 700, the 3910 is 5000. 700-700 is a great exact mismatch imho. Yes, the 595 is very musical, the 563 is that much better, the 3910 is a completely different league altogether. I also own the modwright 3910, and have sold the exemplar 3910, aa capitole 2, mf tri-vista, dv-50, ect ect ect ect
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
