TRL 595-how good is it?

Alex-

We know you do not have a product that costs $700.

711smilin-

When you say "they" what are you referring to...source, speakers, ???

It is really good :)
Stephaen Harrell of 6 Moons has a review on it coming out soon.
Do a search over on AA Hi Rez forum.
Many very experienced people really enjoy it.
You will certainly like it. Whether you think it is better than something else will be interesting to hear. Each person has different tastes.
It may be a matter of different presentations rather than X is better than Y.
I will say that I am done wondering about or looking for a digital front end.

Paul Weitzel views the mods as a proprietary process which is fairly common. He does not publish or disclose specific details to my knowledge.
They "optimize all circuits" and if I recall correctly form my emails with Paul they used their $30,000 reference signal processor to voice and tune the mod.

What I will tell you is whatever they do-it is quite an extraordinary unit which defies all logic in terms of the modest investment. The sound is breathtaking.

I have to agree that the break in is extensive and since the mods likely add another element of break in required I am still hearing changes (good ones) after nearly a month and probably 325 hours.

I had not played the unit for about a day and a half as I just added a new phono preamp I am playing around with.

I think the "rest" did something. The bass extension and air is now at another level. This is quite a piece of gear.

Ozzy-

I think TRL is doing a lot of these, actually. One person had TRL source them the 595 when they placed their order instead of shipping one to them and TRL stated that they order from 10-30 a week for modding. That is separate from the ones people send them.

TRL and Paul Weitzel have a lot of products and projects.
I have no idea what part of their revenue this represents of their business, but after the pro reviews come out-there will no doubt be even more requests.

I think the whole modding business is part technical/hardware and mostly art of the design and ability to systemically create an end product synergy of sound.

I am sure there are "house" voicings by all modders based upon what they feel is the ideal reproduction of music.
I believe that whether it is any of the very fine modders (Wright, Empirical Audio, APL, TRL, etc) you are paying for their intellectual design for that unit or brand line.

I don't know exactly how TRL makes the 595 so good. They certainly know what they are doing and I like their "house" sound.

I think the only thing you can do is try and give one a listen, if possible, and see what you think.

As we are seeing, is truly amazing what can be provided for a modest cost to the end user.
Good luck.

Alex-

Yes, the modest cost completely defies logic. From the little I know about the mod it hints in some ways of the Decware mod approach that Steve Deckert does to a SONY sacd/cd (although he does actually use a tube output, where TRL does not). I think there is a minimalist/purity approach taken in some way. TRL does not add a lot of higher end parts according to Paul Wietzel, but I do not know specifically so my musings are not that valid.
The only observable change is a 3 prong IEC plug put in, and the hole where the old cord came out.

Again, the outcome or result is the ultimate benchmark of their mod, no matter what the cost of the initial platform.
If they can make a $139 unit (what I paid for the 595) sound great-more power to them.
They also will apply their same modification paradigm/approach to the higher end Sony sacd/cd's if folks are more comfortable with a beginning platform of better build quality.

The Sony 595 is not going to win any accolades for some of the things that are usually associated with build quality (weight,dampening, construction materials, rca jacks, "name" internal parts, etc). It has plastic feet! The stock unit has a captive power cord :)
It looks and feels like a sub $200 unit.

Twu2-

The "house" sound to me (and this is strictly my interpretation so take it with a grain of salt) is a voicing toward an extremely detailed, transparent, airy, extended "analog" presentation. Think high end turntable setup where the large soundstage envelopes or washes over the speakers/room in a a slightly relaxed (not intrusive) smooth way, but does not lose definition or resolution.

It does that balancing act very well of smoothness, but still defined detailed and resolved.

As an amateur musician/music producer, I am startled by the ability to separate out bass lines, for instance, in such a way as to communicate their musiciality. Low HZ detail is not easy for a mix to present and often gets lost by the engineer or the CD player cannot reproduce it clearly enough. The detail of the 595 is quite stunning, but it remains musical. The separation of instruments is similar to what I hear when I have a mix recorded in 24/96 before I mix it down to 16/44.

I am at some loss to describe the aural experience verbally.

Short answer- a really really nice analog turntable setup.

One outome for me has been listening to CD's I had given up on as being enjoyable, especially vocals which I think digital often does poorly. These CD's now truly sound remixed-as if somebody found the original analog two track tapes with simple miking and then remade the CD. You can really hear the room/venue ambience (again like a really good TT setup).

All of my comments are based upon redbook.
I have only one SACD (Monk-Straight No Chaser). It sounds wonderful in this unit. Does piano very very well which is also hard for digtial to do IMHO.

I should state I have fairly decent, but modest system components:

MF A300 Integrated amp
ACI Sapphire (25th Ann Edition) monitors
ACI Titan sub.

I should also state that I do not have experience enough to compare to a lot of other digital sources-modded or stock.

I do know what I like, and have some sense of the traditional shortcomings of digital. The TRL mod seems to address those very well and makes excellent music.

Hope this provides some insight as to what it does and does not do.

I believe that Stepahen Harrell told me his review is coming out by the end of the month on 6 Moons.

I am looking forward to see what he has to say.
He has a more informed ability, obviously, than someone like me.

Finally, the advances that engineers and pro modders are making in digital is a good thing for all.
TRL is certainly a viable option as are many others.

I will say that I am done wondering about what else is out there.... am I getting everything out of my speakers...is their better sound, etc, etc.

There undoubtedly is at some price, but this makes you not really care or worry about it.

Twu2-

Well, a very respected professional reviewer had a fellow audio afficiando walk into his listening room when he had the 595 playing and this friend promptly said something like "hey, did you get a new turntable?".
It does seem to have that character.
Paul Weitzel did comment to me via email that he feels it does address the longstanding analog vs. digital argument and that digital done well can sound as good as great analog.
I think he has done a great job on that account. Good LP's and good CD's provide me a similar enjoyable listening experience now.
Hope all works out for you in your exploring options.

Yes, I have heard he has done several of the 2000ES models with great success. As an ES model they would have a better build quality in certain areas.

It is subjective and system dependent in many ways to describe any audio source unit (or any piece of audio gear) so I am always hesitant to make any extreme claims, especially since I do not have access to a lot of gear like a pro reviewer might. There are certainly many fine digital sources out there.

This could be a very enjoyable unit for you (and I do think most people), and I will not qualify it by syaing "for the money".
It is just plain very, very good. Now, whether it meets someone's specific system needs and ideals-well you almost have to try it I guess.
I do know that there are some very experienced people who have the 777ES and like the TRL mod better.
Good Luck!

Alex-

As another digital mod professional, I would think you would be above such troll like commentary that this thread is now disintegrating into. I am surprised that you are involving yourself in this end user banter to be honest.
I am sure you have better things to do. No one was attacking you or your work, which by several accounts is excellent.

711smilin also has no intention of coming to any conclusion other than the TRL mod is inadequate and "you da man" Alex, so no worries.

My only question is whether his daughter will let him borrow the TRL.

Alex-

Not offended at all. Just sort of intrigued by your marketing methods. As I said, people will draw their own conclusions.
Good luck in your work.

711smilin-

I think you are confused. I am not a modder. Just another music lover in this crazy hobby like the rest of us. My reference to a professional modder was toward Alex of APL as I thought it seemed odd that he would get involved in this discussion in this way-but that is his choice and he has the freedom to say what he wishes in the manner he wishes. People can draw their own conclusions about his comments and the manner in which he makes them.

I do think that it would be a good idea for A-gon to have Vendors/Manufacturers be identified when they post in the discussion forums. As crazy as it gets over there at Audio Asylum-this is a good rule they have.

As far as "putting my money where my mouth is", I am not sure what you mean. I own a TRL 595. I have owned or own other digital gear recently (Pioneer, Sony, Cary, Bel Canto, Echo Audio, Line 6). I certainly have not bought all of the gear recently that you state you have. You are free to spend as much money as you wish experimenting. Wish I could do so also :)

My wife would kill me, though :<

I guess I just question your relative objectivity as you already have publicly stated the following:

1) The TRL unit is going to your daughter and her friends to use for their listening and dancing; and for your "critical" listening you will use the APL.

2) You also then state that APL makes the best digital at any price... "Alex, chill baby, your APL is the BEST digital I have ever heard, anywhere, at and at any price."

You have a right to your opinion and I truly respect that, but at this point based upon your comments it would be difficult for anyone to take your views that seriously.

Have fun trying out the TRL and other gear you have on the way. You might like it, you might not.

I think folks may actually want to consider looking at the professional reviews that are coming soon on the TRL 595. They also may want to look at reviews/comments/comparisions from end users that do not state ahead of time what they already believe is best. I think there will be plenty of comparisions of the TRL with other units and people will figure out what might best work for them.

As for what is "best"- I can only be sure that this will always be debated and that is part of the fun for all of us. I do not think there is a universal "best". People like different presentations of their music.

I do know that Music is one of life's great pleasures and the TRL product has been a revelation in communicating the music for me-but that is just one opinion and we all know the old saying about opinions-everyone has one.

Peace.

Jahaira-

Bienvinedo amigo Jose'-
I agree that it is about the music and let's have fun.
The TRL can communicate music. I think the experience of Paul in doing audio engineering and field recording is a huge asset. He knows what the live music is supposed to sound like.
Works for me.

711smilin-

It's all good.
Have fun trying out your new gear. Would love to get a TRL amp someday.

711smilin-
Dunno about that one.
I did not listen to mine that much the first 150 hours or so, but I did not have that issue really at any time even when I would sneak a listen.
Has an alleged long break in-some say 500+ hours.
I still noticed changes at 350-400 hours.
Have fun!

711smilin-

The extension on both ends will continue to improve for awhile-be patient. The air is ridiculous when it fully blooms.
I also had to adjust my subwoofer setting at around 300 hours. The bass was literally shaking my house.

Not sure about the SACD settings as I only have one SACD and it is a two channel only.

As for getting stuck on the 3rd disk in repeat mode-maybe it is that disk. I would email Paul if you have any trouble on a regular basis with that.

I have posted a review on this unit on AA-Hi REZ which may provide an additional useful perspective.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/203446.html

711smilin(Steve)- I was never sure what your big dilemma and torture was about all of this digital stuff. You came to the exact conclusion we all knew you would-APL is the best in your view.

You love the APL stuff and made that clear from the beginning to everyone, and have made that clear in all related threads about any equipment.
Just have a yard sale and dump the rest and enjoy the APL!
Hope things calm down for you and you can just have fun and enjoy the music for awhile.

Jsala-
I heard that TRL really likes one of the Marantz units you mention above. Paul can tell you which one. Certainly there are many units with better stock build quality than the modest 595. What that translates into for sound-they can tell you.

Guido-

I mean no real criticism of 711smilin. We have had an ongoing good natured dialogue about his journey and by his own admission he is driving himself crazy and not enjoying himself lately.

By the way, I actually am a licensed mental health professional of 29 years. I think Steve is no more symptomatic than the rest of us. They don't call it Audio Asylum for nothing.

You may wish to take a look at this active thread below again.

All I am saying to him is a suggestion to just stick with his APL and be happy. APL makes nice mods by many accounts. No worries for him-enjoy the tunes.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/203446.html

LOL! Hilarious and brilliant!

Guido-

The author indicated that his friend with the TRL was not happy with the results and one can only assume that he took his TRL home in total shame and disgust.
His wife has no doubt left him by now, he was fired from his job, and he is living in a box underneath an interstate in California somwhere by now. Worse yet, he has that lousy TRL unit he has to listen to.

That is the unfortunate and inevitable sad result of losing a shootout.

Tvad -

I would tend to agree that people generally will utilize self hypnosis or auto suggestion in forming their impressions of their new mod that is in direct correlation to the amount they spent on the investment.
No one wants to say that the 3000,4000,or 5000$ investment they just spent wasn't the "best they have ever heard". LOL!

This is where professional reviews can sometimes help, but these are usually very cautious and qualified.

I do think, in general, however, that most mods of digital and other audio units do make marked improvements so the user is very pleased.
I also think that the ongoing debates as to what mod is the best sounding (TRL, RAM, APL, Empirical, Modwright) is probably just an exercise analogous to hearing about people's gourmet eating habits, albeit an interesting debate.
All of these modders create extraordinary outcomes on their flagship model mods of the day. It is kind of like Aunt Bee and ladies at the Annual Pie Contest on Mayberry RFD. But, as we all know, everyone does not like the same "best" cherry pie recipe.

I guess the question (and solution) for me gains focus when I consider the reports on modder ethics, service relationships, analysis of initial stock plus mod investment cost/benefit, and the general ideal "house" sound of the modder.

In the end, there are a lot of choices for the end user and that is a good thing. People simply just need to do their homework.

Well, I know what works for me, but my opinion and info is just one of many - if it provides something useful to someone else then great.
Everybody has a different system, a different room, and a different set of ears.
Everbody also has different definitions as to what is a reasonable cost.
One thing I know for sure, this is a crazy hobby.

Ho hum....
Another "shootout" from an owner of an APL unit which shockingly states that APL is the superior unit to Brand X (fill in the blank). LOL!

Tvad-

My thoughts exactly.
RAM has a "shootout" post on their website forum right now where all RAM units (including their entry level units) best every single APL unit. Of course in that "shootout" the writer was a RAM employee and it was his web forum :)

I have no issue with someone saying they like Unit A better than Unit B (everyone has a right to their opinion based upon listening preferences); just don't portray that it is an objective comparision.

711smilin-

Thanks for the opinion Steve.
Well stated, also.

Guido-

Well, at least you have a sense of humor and don't actually take these pseudo shootouts seriously.
I actually can accept somebody like Steve (711smilin) who may be off the hook a bit, but is honest in his undying APL allegiance versus anythng else. He doesn't bother with any stinking shootouts :)

Guido-

Yes, the RAM/APL thing is entertaining.

Alex-

Interesting offer to folks, but we all know that owners of any gear are rarely objective. I have already talked to and heard from several folks who prefer certain TRL units to various iterations of APL units. And vice versa.
That being said, these are all good units and in an elite class. There are just various opinions at this level of quality and it is phenomenological.
I would be interested in your offer as a TRL unit owner, but would be more interested in hearing your flagship loaded 3910 out of curiosity. The offer for the Pioneer would be fun to hear also, though.
I have a TRL Marantz SA14 that I am breaking in.
You can email through Agon if you wish.

Alex-

I would agree it is all subjective and system dependant. It also depends on what revision the APL unit was when compared to TRL.

Yes, all modders are continually enhancing their work. People like different things. At a certain level of quality, it really just comes down to what a particular person idealizes in sound reproduction. I would never try and convince anyone that Modded Unit A is the best for all people, or absoultely better than Modded Unit B.

The variety makes life interesting for us end users.

How about just putting me on the list for the "rolling" APL 3910 when one becomes available for demo use.
I am curious to hear the sound signature of the unit sometime for fun.
I live in midwest so if/when one is on tour in the area keep me in mind.

Regards-

Steve(711smilin)-

I would suggest that you take up any concerns or misunderstandings with Paul Weitzel directly like an adult. Making the kind of one sided allegations you are implying about his business dealings with you in a public forum is another bizarre chapter in your behavior on these forums.

Paul and the TRL staff are the definition of integrity in this field and have decades of an impeccable earned reputation among customers, reviewers, and colleagues in the industry.

While you have a right to your opinion about your likes and dislikes in audio-you have no license to imply that TRL lied, or mislead you.

Tvad-

As is usual, we have similar views of this entire discussion forum medium which typically offers useful info and ideas, and opinions.
As I have stated many many times, opinions are welcome.
As you well know, I don't make any proclamtions about any gear being the best as that is an inherently absurd path IMHO.
Yes, I do often talk positively about many manufacturers I have dealt with - Ven Haus Audio, DH Labs, KAB USA, Audio Concepts, Inc., RS Audio cables, Hagerman, and TRL. If this is useful to some great; if not disregard it.

The opinions of Steve on what he likes and why are welcome.

Misrepresenting a manufacturer as basically lying or misleading is not welcome-at least to me.

Guido-
The "review" by Joel was arranged by Alex.
Alex informed me he was doing so in an email on June 13th.
I am not sure how many times Alex plans on having his customers make public negative "reviews" of Steve Millin's TRL 595.
I really do not understand why APL has an obsession with TRL, and continues on this transparent campaign to try and discredit TRL.
No one is fooled by these tactics, but they certainly speak volumes about the participants and APL.

You guys need to move on.

Guido-

As intelligent as you clearly are (which we all appreciate as at least you are rationale); you have made a couple incorrect assumptions:

1) A complaint was filed with forum moderators before the "review". The entire issue is under review and monitoring by AA. No one wants this type of stuff to continue.
2) TRL and Paul Weitzel has been in business for decades. The mods are a small, but enjoyable and rewarding part of their business. I.E. They just shipped off a $140,000 amp to a customer. (That equals 254 of their mod jobs). So, "faith" from a Jack Seaton, although sincerely appreciated, matters little. The "reality" is these guys were doing quite well as a respected and successful audio mfr. before the internet, and are doing quite well with the internet as an additonal info resource available to the end user. They could frankly never do another mod and be just fine.

They are just doing their work and minding their own business. You never see Paul or Brian posting on these forums being critical of others. They have made no claims of ultimate superiority of their products. To paraphrase Paul's own words "If you like their product that is great as they are proud of their work; if you don't that is fine."

There is plenty of business out there, if earned the right way, for the APL's of the world and I am quite sure they do a fine mod and I have never said anything to the contrary.

Let's all just move on here and enjoy this hobby.

Guido-

Jesuits, huh?
And you survived, LOL!

I went to 12 years of Catholic schools myself and have worked the past 20 for the human service arm of the Catholic Church. I knew I liked your world view for some reason.
It' a Catholic thing-always hoping for that ultimate truth and symmetry yet always we know we will be searching for answers.

I apologize if I sounded defensive. My mistake.
As far as the TRL mod arm of their business-all I can say is that they are relentless in their passion for seeking great audio. I don't think they will get complacent.

They just came out with their first solid state integrated amp after decades of doing tube amps/preamps SOTA manufacturing (the ST-225).
The excitement that Paul and Brian have about it when they talk tells me they still have the fire.

When they talk about their digital mods-they are truly excited about making musical units, and the results in the Marantz units recently with their approach is really making them happy. Funny how this thread is on the Sony 595 which they do very few of now. It is a very very nice unit and wonderful value-but they will tell you themselves that there are other platforms they prefer at this point.It just happens to be the cheapest unit they do. (Actually, they do a Toshiba 3960 that is quite good also for even cheaper.)

So, I guess I also have "faith" if you will, that they are
still challenging themselves each day and love what they do.
But, it would come as no surprise to you what certain religious training and faith they have quite ingrained in them also:)

Well, at least we had a huge real pipe organ in our church that I got listen to every day in grade school.
The nuns could play.