Ken, why don't you go listen to some variety of TTs? It's really not that hard. After you hear a particular TT(s), all this DD/BD and "performance" BS becomes meaningless. If you do not want to modify or spend a lot of time adjusting your TT, then a Rega 25 will work just fine. It's a very nice sounding TT without modifications or hassle, REALLY. If you wanna go for a little extra, then add a heavyweight. It is a super-simple mod.
As for the RB arms. E. Phonos complaints with the rega arms are on thread comparing it to an SME V ($3k), and were limited to the lack of VTA and a relatively imprecise anti-skate mechanism. I also find these problemsa little annoying. But Regas are not "world class" arms. Did I miss something? Were they meant to be? As for the arms ruining cartridges, there seems to be little evidence for that (E. Phono neglected to add any) and more evidence that is they don't. I haven't heard of anyone using the best, expensive MCs on a Rega, but there seems to be a total lack of complaints about the arm damaging the carts more often used on the RBs. I'll be sure to let you know if my arm bends my cantilever in a couple hundred hours, though. |
Well after reading all this confusion I'm just glad I went big into 8 track tapes.
Sincerely, I remain |
Very droll original post.
Check out Nottingham Analogue series TTs.
I've got an Interspace - the first in the series.
You won't find many criticisms of NOT.
Try them - you may then laugh at all the relevant preceding replies. |
Psycho: Agreed on the fluid damping. Well Tempered did a variation of it, one of it's considerable strong points. I couldn't afford it at the time. I'm not sure that Wax wants to join the buy and modify group as opposed to buy and start enjoying right away. The only real problem with modifying or buying something that has been, is, why was it modified in the first place? Unsatisfactory performance? Alot has been written about room acoustics and interaction. Everyone has a different take on this as we all listen in different environments under our own pereceptions. A modified piece of gear will sound different in a different environment, which may or may not be good. I love my set up the way it is now. Instead of buying new speakers which may or may not have 1)solved my problem or 2)improved the sound, I had to really decide what was wrong. Highs were suffering a little. What to do? New speakers, better stands?
Niether. Got a different chair which put the tweeter at the right hieght. Spent the difference on records. But, my local audio dealer almost stroked out.. |
Excellent post, Trebleclef.
Well, almost...you ought to listen to a modded 1200. The fluid damper brings the best of this unit. It's truly world class sound. I have been using damping on and off with my previous TT. Still have one of those old Disctracker headshell damping devices. Fluid damping makes a big difference in performance--just ask SME. |
I thinks it's great that you want to get into analog as it's my belief that analog is the state of the art in music. Digital is the state of the art in salesmanship. CD's should be relegated to new recordings not the tried and true of the glorious past. And, since there are no sonic differences between new and used cd's, buy used. I've purchases 5 new titles released this month, highest paid $6.99.
If you were confused before starting this thread you must be close to insane at this point. There is some good information provided but there are a couple of obious questions not asked by you or answered by the repondents.
My assumption is that you do not own any siginificant albums. If true, have you investigated where in yhou rcommunity vinyl can be purchased? If not, do this first. If you are depending on ebay, internet sites or, mail order houses (we all know who they are) you are going to need deep pockets. There are really no bargins, or sales, just stuff they haven't sold. I am an experienced collector of 40 years. At this point in the record-collecting hobby,vinyl is an exercise in dinminished returns. The reissue business of vinyl is hardly stable,so unstable it qualifies as a fad now. MOFI and DCC both went out of business withMOFI going out twice. The reason are irrelevent, gone is gone. The fact that you can find most of their prosucts on internet auction houses daily show there isn't a market for this stuff in any large sense. These companies sold there new products for $25. You can buy
it now for $39 dialy only no one is buying it now. Do a search on ebayand then do a completed search and compare/
Original vinyl and the pursuit thereof can be and is an extremely fun porcess. And, with the advent of excellent cleaning products, your own experimentation, you might surmise(as I did) that the reissues do not exceed the originals in sound quality, (although they may at times sound good but good doesn't mean better). Which leads to my suggestion.
Split the difference. If you are going to get into analog at this date get a used Rega 25 (I'm getting one myself)They are plentiful and an excellent starting or stopping point. The person you buy it from will not have abused it and more likely will want to update it not because there is anyhing wrong with the table but because he just can't help it. That's part of the audiophile syndrome. A used Rega Planar 25 can easily be had for $700 - $1000/ You can always update sound quality by changing the cartridge a fun process. I would suggested the Music Hall but the Rega company has been around since the late 1980's and shoould you need service or a part (belts etc.) chances are the Rega company will still be around in some form. There have been many companies who's products were herald as you can't live without them you gotta have em now it will get no better (SOTO/APPOGEE/COUNTERPOINT) who are all gone now. Again it's not relevent as to why really, if you need service or a part, good luck. If you take the plunge into analog the best investment you can make is in a good cleaning system in conccruence with your intial plunge. I prefer a combination of two systems: a VPI cleaning machine (ESSENTIAL BUY ANY OF THEM) and the newly introduced Disc Doctor solutions and brushes.
As for cd's and SACD, to me it's not worth the signifcant amounts of monies needed to get good just like analog sound ( which I already have). Record companies continually change formats when the creative well dries. Let those with the money to waste. waste theirs. The only caution I have for you is that the Rega cartidges all hum. I have had four independent experiences with Rega + Rega setups. In all four systems,the Rega cartridges hummed. And it's always my fault (my being my small group of audio cohorts). Ask the dealer,importer etc. All are working great with different cartdiges now. The only other caution would be to completely ignore any unsolicted emails you get from dealers. Dealers deal. They want to sell you something before the next guy does. Nuff said.
And do us all a favor, let us know what you decide,but, don't start anymore thraeds like this!! (ha)
Best of Luck |
May I remind you, Pbb, that people have sex like an instinctive event? However, it was under commisioning of the ancient Chinese emperors that Taoist medical sexual research began. What Masters and Johnson were doing in the sixties the Chinese had done way better some 2,500-3,000 years ago. There's a book titled "Tao of Love and Sex" that briefs and explains the findings so that Westeners like you and me can have a more enjoyable life. I had a friend of mine buy the book and told me his married life has increased a hundred fold...
Just when we think we know...the same goes for music. |
ken, don't let psychic fool ya - dint he mention that he just ordered a trough to further tweek his 1200? ;~) ya, i *am* a bit obsessed w/the di/o - after 20 years of digital, i can *finally* enjoy the music, much in the same way i enjoy my analog rig. and, no, i don't have to worry much about upgrading & tweeking the analog rig. well, no more than psychic, anyway. o-l came out w/a new-n-improved rb250 modded arm that i may have to get, replacing my present o-l arm. well, it's silver, & it'll *look* nicer! :>) doug s. |
Is the analogue community a gated community? I was convinced of the reasonableness of my various blurbs. I guess Bishopwill put it less in pamphlet form than I did, and I thank him for his good sense. I can see it now: two sold out digital-types playing good cop/bad cop with the "analogue community". Not to leave everyone convinced of my intellectual or hearing deficiencies I have two things to add in closing on analogue/vinyl: 1st) I still believe that in some critical aspect the best reproduction of music I have heard was from direct-to-disc analogue/vinyl LP. Why? The initial attack of the music, its leading edge was the closest to actual live music; 2nd) as pointed out by the Bishop, there is liquidity (or to put it another way, a fine texture) in analogue/vinyl, but it is a fleeting experience, to me at least, gone as soon as the impulse noise breaks the spell. At the risk of repeating myself, more power to those who can hear through it. I still believe that one is better off upgrading within one format, than splitting the available cash between two formats. By the way music, whether reproduced in one format or the other, when it's just right, can still put me in a sort of trance, it casts a spell and takes me away, but that has to do more with the performance and the performers and not the mechanics of its reproduction. Being moved by music does not require much in the way of reading, and certainly no self-improvement course. Elvis Costello said something to the effect that talking about music is like dancing about architecture. I have been moved to tears by music playing on my kitchen radio and have felt singularly unmoved by audiophlie recordings of inferior performances on high res sytems. Let's get back to music qua music. Regards one and all, whatever your avocation. |
Thanks everybody. This thread has been most interesting. I just sat back and watched. I still don't understand why Pbb bashed analog in this thread. What are the moderators for anyway? So that we don't use obscene langage?
Psychic, you definitely have a peculiar approach to all this. I understand why you defend the DJ turntable. You don't want to worry about upgrades, tweaks and just keep focused on the music.
Sedond, are you 'obsessed' with that Art di/o? You seem to be a closet analog type to me.
I take that getting any properly matched analog rig will bring pleasure. It's now a matter of finding the best deal for me.
Ken |
psychic, have yer buddy mikey try a modded art di/o. at $200-$350, depending on who does the mods, he shouldn't have to wait for something used... may not get him all the way there, but it will likely get him a lot closer... ;~) doug s. |
FROM ONE OF THE TNT GUYS:
My front end consists of a Wadia CD player, Sota Star-SapphireTT, ET2.5 Air Bearing Arm, Grado Reference cartridge ( low output), Audio Research phono preamp. I purchased most everything second hand but believe that
the new cost of the analogue/ digital rigs to be comparable in the US$5000 range. (do I get points off for not having a DAC?) :-)
The Wadia came first (it took me six years or so to collect my set up even with used prices.) and had not had a TT in many years. I was ecstatic about the sound coming from the CD through a tube amp and electrostatic speakers and thought this must be heaven. Wanting to be transported away by the music, I put on Schwarzkopf singing the Four
Last Songs of Strauss from the Angel/EMI release. It was sweet, smooth and silky with nothing standing out or distracting evident from stereo but in the fourth verse of "Im Abendrot" the climax and resolution of the piece " O spacious, tranquil peace, so profound in the gloaming."
hits a brief major note and has in the past sent shivers through me and at times brought a tear to my eye. Much to my dismay and a blow to my pride in my new setup there was none of that. It was beautiful for sure but distant.
How could this not beat the pants off my bottom of the line BIC TT, cheapo Sure cartridge and Lafyette receiver. Perhaps because it was distant memories.
Eventually my analogue setup came around and I pulled out the original Schwarzkopf. As you can probably guess, at this point all of the involvement was there in the original LP that was lacking from the CD. I played both versions and found the difference in involvement to be eye opening and to this day is my favorite CD/LP comparison for friends
who don't know LPs.
I've thought of getting a DAC to see if that would help level the field but am waiting for something in that class to be found used. Does anyone have a suggestion? The CD has a recording chain of AAD. I have a few other CD/LP comparisons on hand that give similar results and music has
moved me on CD but just more so and more frequently on LP.
Now to really stir up trouble. The 1960 DGG pressing of the Beethoven 9 Symphonies with Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic blows the pants off, dynamically speaking, the CD reissue. In the slow movement of the 7th. I've never heard such pianissimo and such forte. It is a perception
though, I've not measured it.
The Wadia is great and it gets used often, but if I want to be moved, LP is the thing.
Regards,
Michael |
Read again. Then meditate about it. I'm trying to put you in the right frame of mind.
Kind of like a Lifespring exercise...
www.lifespringusa.com |
Now I'm totally confused. Aaron Copeland was an analogue-type guy? And analogue can get me more emotionally involved with the music, but, if I understand, not with classical music, since you would not buy an LP collecton of classical music and, therefore, would go the digital/cd route for classical. Have I missed something here? Yes, perplexed and totally confused! |
I took a class in freshman year in college: Sound Sense and Idea. A musicology class that is. We read the book, as well as another one I don't remember...
You should read the book. I'm pretty sure analog will start making sense to you.
From your posts I think you could benefit from getting truly emotionally involved with the music. I had my reality check which awakened me many yeas ago...that's one of the reasons I use a modded 1200 instead of a belt drive. I have made a discipline of getting involved with the music, not the equipment. I do have a cultivated ear, but the music goes first. I truly enjoy my Svetlana and Dvorjak's Columbia Classisc LP after all these years of impulse noise being accumulated. I get connected to the spirit of the music. That's what's really important. That's why I've chosen my components to be musical above any other quality. I have a friend who's into really high end stuff*, but he ALWAYS drools with my software, ¿comprende? "Where do I get all this music" is his question...
* B&W 801's, Krell Class A beast, Klyne SK-5A preamp, SOTA vacuum TT, etc. |
The son of a lawyer I worked with lent me a copy years ago and, honestly, I did not get very far in my reading it. I've read so many articles on music and audio over the years that I probably have some patchwork equivalent in my brain. Why? |
I wouldn't invest in a classical music vinyl collection, for sure. I've bought a few at record stores very cheap but it's not worth it, in my opinion. The noise would just get to me, especially as it gets worse with time.
Pbb, have you read "What to Listen for in Music" by Aaron Copland? |
I have always been almost maniacal in my care of LPs. And yes I listen to a lot of classical and jazz, but believe me blues is often heard in my room and rock also. As to the source of my disdain for surface noise, true enough solo flute or classical guitar or even orchestral music on soft or silent passages is what done it! Too bad we never did get analogue systems without the physical contact of stylus and groove! Some time ago, a system using optical means of pick-up was developped and marketed. Wrong time, it got killed by CD. |
Pbb, I think Sedond has it right on the money. He's been telling me about the modded ART di/o for MONTHS! Then I read that the VMPS speaker was best of the CES. The DAC? Modded ART di/o. If one combines this with professor Van Alstine's argument of using a cheap transport (that's what he used in his demo at the Chicago Audio Society) with a good DAC then one is set. Bueno. No need to spend a lot of money. Shouldn't for digital anyway. It's just ones and zeros...
Ken, please forgive us. If you like old music or have a collection of LPs, go for it. Keep it simple. I ordered the tonearm fluid damper for my TT last week and should get it anytime. Please e-mail me if you have any questions.
Hey man, I'm waiting for a record I got on ebay. It's the band that played in my ninth grade ball. Not on CD, extremely hard to get. Lots of impulse noise. But even more HOT street salsa music to make you forget about the noise!
Pbb the only thing I can see about your complaining of all that impulse noise is two reasons: Perhaps you listen to classical music almost exclusively (which indeed does have a lot of low volume passages in which I also consider the noise unacceptable) and/or maybe you don't really know how to take care of your vinyl (including proper cartridge setup).
As usual, there is no conclusion...get used to it, Ken!
Later, |
Psychicanimal, I make no promises, but this is the last from me on the never ending analogue/vinyl vs. digital/CD debate: on the inherent musicality of a system as judged by a third party who is not into this audiophile thing, I can take the case of my wife. The first thing she mentions when coming into the room when an LP is playing music with less than a relentless musical groove to hide the surface noise is that there is so much noise present. On the other hand, when I got a home trial of the Arcam FMJ CD 23 (which I ended up buying despite what is probably also to you a well known phrase: "but you have a CD player") she was amazed at the difference between my JVC 1010 in terms of the oft-touted "musicality" and opined that it simply sounded more like musical instruments than its predecessor. And this is a machine that many consider entry level into better CD reproduction. Briefly put: in the roughly ten year span between these two machines a lot has been accomplished in CD reproduction which is not apparent in the measured performance. What has happened is "musicality" that rivals that of analogue/vinyl even in the handicap race always proposed between the two, and which surpasses it when background and impulse noises are part of the equation (which they should, since I can't buy the arguments that you can simply dismiss these two distinct and intrusive noises while concentrating on the detailed, relaxed and liquid analogue presentation). My most basic point is that unless you have compelling reasons to get into vinyl (inter alia, inheriting an analogue rig and/or a decent LP collection), one would be better to concentrate resources on what is the current generally accepted system of music reproduction, unless that is the "hobby" aspect of analogue/vinyl is too tempting, in which case the person, such as the original poster who still can't believe what his simple question engendered, should set himself a budget and get a good used turntable of Linn, VPI, SOTA or Oracle manufacture (or other manufacture where parts are still available) along with a decent arm (which is probably already installed on the tt), together with a new cartridge. That same person could also give one of the better CD players a listen and then decide if all the negatives attributed to CD reproduction, such as aggressive highs, lack of detail, lack of warmth, no toe-tappingness and other now time-worn and un-applicable clichés, are real or simply a rehashing of twenty year old biases, and maybe save some money in the process. |
You're right, Jimbo, it DOES sound strident and I wonder why? Mercy sakes, my friend, don't you READ what people write? I'll let pbb speak for himself but in my case I AM NOT ANALOG ADVERSE. I have been and will continue to be complimentary to and appreciative of good analog sound.
I made the conscious, deliberate choice to give up vinyl (of which I had a lot) and get rid of my analog equipment (which was eminently respectable and in which I had invested a lot of money) because I found surface noise more of a detriment to my listening enjoyment than the benefit of analog sound compared to digital.
Jimbo, did you ever hear someone say that they chose XXX speaker because it had such a phenomenal midrange (for example) even though they acknowledged that it didn't have such a totally wonderful low end or top end? Do you know of anyone who chose imaging and soundstage over maximum tonal accuracy or vice versa?
This is what we are talking about. It isn't a matter of being "analog adverse." For goodness sake, you'll hear a lot more negativity on the dear old 'gon about digital than you ever will about analog. It's a matter of people making personal choices that reflect their values in music appreciation.
Why get so exercised over something that's supposed to be fun?
Will |
jimbo3 - *thank* you!!! ;~) perhaps pbb's point to waxcylinder (those cylinders sound *much* better tha 12" vinyl, doncha know?) is: *don't bother* to get into analog. the main argument *against* analog, (which doesen't hold much water for me and my ears) is that analog has more background surface noise. as i said earlier: "...while i acknowledge surface noise is an issue w/some albums, the overwhelming majority of 'em are emminently musical, w/o surface noise being a distraction, even the *oldies*. and, no edgy digital sound - who cares if the background is perfect, when the main event is irritating? :>) ..." there is so much *music* on vinyl, it's easy *for me* to hear around the surface noise of all but the poorest-condition records. perhaps it's due to the fact that i've ben spinning viny since i was seven years old, & i'm used to it. mebbe a vinyl *newbie* couldn't cope. doug s. btw, an aside to bishopwell: invest in a modified art di/o dac, & get the best you're ever gonna get out of redbook cd w/o taking out another mortgage on your house. |
Good Bishop, I believe I have finally found the answer. Do you get chocolate in your vinyl? Explains a lot.
All Jokes aside, do you have to be a Bishop and a psychotherapist to attain that nice balance of view? I fear I have no chance.
Sincerely, I remain |
I'm having a little difficulty undestanding why there are numerous off-subject posts on this thread, especially the diatribes against analog. Audiogon provides a nifty forum for digital for those who are so inclined.
How is this type of post helping Ken get started in analog?? PBB, perhaps you could start the ball rolling???
Forgive me if this post sounds strident, but if one doesn't like analog, why would one spend so much time here? I'm a sailor and don't care much for powerboats, but I don't spend my weekends at the power boat dealership haranguing their customers- I simply go sailing!!
Please, and with all sincerity, could any one of the analog-averse posters fill me in on why you are here and how the analog community is benefitting?
Sincerely
Jim
|
Pbb,
I, at least, know where you are coming from. Sold my vinyl, my Linn, my Koetsu, my Keith Monks, et alia, years ago. Put the money into equipment that was good enough to be highly listenable but not so costly that I wouldn't be willing to turn it over regularly as the medium advanced. That philosophy still obtains and I am currently using a Rega Jupiter 2000 with a trade-up on the horizon in the next six months or so depending on the SACD/DVD-A silliness.
I've not regretted that decision, though I enjoy the occasional vinyl listening session with friends who unanimously think that I've either (1) sold out to technology, (2) suffered hearing loss, or (3) never had the right equipment/had it set up right from the git-go.
That being said, I have long been willing to acknowledge that vinyl has a warmth and liquidity that most CD systems/software lack. Some cynics say it is distortion but no matter, it sounds very nice. It is, however, a slight difference (despite what the vinylphiles say) and getting slighter with each passing month.
The point that I keep trying to make--and I think that you are trying to make--is that surface noise is every bit as valid a variable of determination in the listening experience as evanescent liquidity. The vinylphile says, "How can you give up that luscious sound?" and I reply, "How can you fail to be maddeningly distracted by surface noise?" Both are legitimate viewpoints, neither inherently superior to the other.
My appeal, as always, is for folks to quit preaching and pronouncing at each other and just go have fun. |
Pbb, I hear you. However, I just do not understand that you can't find vinyl more musical. My 'amiga' knows nothing about audio and she can tell that my analog rig sounds better. So does another good friend who came for a listen. It was a no brainer decision. Yes, there is impulse noise...but there is also more music. Unfortunately, it should NOT be that way. Digital SHOULD be better. But it's not, at the time.
It is very unfortunate that we humans are like we are. The CD format was lauched well before it should have. VHS ruled over Beta. DVDs over Laser Discs. Now they want MP3-like formats in order to copy protect. Sad, isn't it? |
David 99. Please tell me what is a good analog front end and I will make every attempt to hear it. Please tell me if such a rig will give me a system where I can enjoy even the silence integral to music and delicate instruments such as solo classical guitar, without having impulse noise intrude and kill the spell for me. I am not kidding, I will take my best vinyl and will gladly give it the best, most open-minded, fairest audition I can. What I fear is that you, or someone else, will come back to tell me that the turntable/arm/cartridge combo was the right one but that it was not properly set-up, that the phono-stage was the limiting factor, that the record I used should have been wet or dry, or that too much static electricity was in the air, or the cabinet on which the turntable was placed was all wrong, should be decoupled from the room or really coupled to it, like a a monolithic concrete structure immune from vibration, etc. You see, not that my goal is to win any argument on the subject, but I cannot possibly reach a point were both you, and like-minded people, and I, and like-minded people, will be satisfied either way. If you add to that that there is a growing belief in audiophile circles that there is no objective standard against which to judge music reproduction, you can then pretty well see that we are talking at cross purposes. To paraphrase a great champion: " I ain't got no fight against them analog/vinyl guys". Best regards. |
Sedond, any digital at any price? Analog/vinyl reproduction is a system that is flawed from the get-go. Our ears must be really different and I am not proposing that mine are in any way superior. Strange thing, my wife can be in the car while I am listening to the radio and when I comment on something tells me she wasn't listening, simply turned her ears off she says. She insists it has nothing to do with not paying attention and insists she is filtering out unwanted signals. Says she gets it from her less than happy childhood. After all these years I am stupid enough to believe her. Could we be on to something: you can actually filter out background noise and impulse noise and just enjoy the music. I, on the other hand, am devoid of such filtration which prevents me from enjoying the music. See, put this way, I don't hear any better than you, I just hear differently. I have a long spiel saved on my hard drive about my opinion on analog/vinyl. I will not post it for two reasons: firstly, it will be judged inflammatory (hardly is, I can assure you); secondly, it will probably bore everyone to tears, since I have already vented on that subject in the past. You are an avid proponent of analogue/vinyl, more power to you, nobody can take that away from you (with the real exception of the recording industry over which neither you nor I have any control). On a balance of inconvenience, to use injunction language, I am of the opinion that the clear winner is digital/CD reproduction, teething pains and all. It takes all kinds. Regards. |
pbb, my simple-to-set-up analog rig cost me yust under $2k, cartridge included. platter is a couple pounds, motor tucked snugly underneath, driven by a simple $2 belt from mcm electronics. it will provide a more musical experience than any digital rig at any price. the previous table it replaced, i had ~$350 into it, & while not up to my present 'table, it will still hold its own w/the best that digital has to offer... and, psychic has it correct - cd has the *potential* for wide dynamic range; unfortunately is is not often utilized. even tho my dbx 3bx is not always in the signal path, cuz its in the tape loop, it's always tracking the signal, & it's really easy to see & compare the dynamic range of the program material, by the the way the lights are blinking, indicating the dynamics of whatever's being played. hey, don't get me wrong, i enjoy my digital playback rig. but let's not delude ourselves! ;~) doug s. btw, david99, ya gotta spend a lot more than $4k for a cd to compete w/a $1k analog rig... or ~$350 for a modified art di/o... ;~) |
Pbb-have you ever heard a good analog front end?
Have you ever compared a $1000 analog front end to a $4000-$5000 CDP?? |
Pbb, Sedond did not say CDs are compressed. He said that in some poorly produced CDs the music has ben compressed. I notice this unfortunate phenomenom on a lot of my salsa CDs as well as pop Anglo music. If there's something in my list of gadgets is an expander, too.
I hear you, there is an analog cult going around...that's why they don't wanna hear that my modded 'DJ' TT really performs outstandingly. It's simply 'not possible'...you've got to 'have' this TT exactly how you described.
The manhole cover...good one! |
Talk about confusion! Now we learn that cds are compressed! Oh yes, it's getting clearer now: cds have less dynamic range than lps; lps have better s/n ratio than cds; polycarbonate will disintegrate in five years, while vinyl is so stable it only gets mangled by a diamond stylus applying tons of pressure per sq. in. every time it's played; analog is more natural (the way God intended music to be reproduced), while digital is only numbers that can't possibly correlate with music, which is a spiritual experience; digital is harsh, while analog/vinyl is liquid and open and sweet and has that nice steady reassuring background noise plus all those attractive impulse noises to reassure you that the record is actually spinning, while cds have a pitch black, dark, gloomy, unnatural background; cds are sneaky little monstrosities that hide inside a skimpy little drawer doing their nasty Nyquist approved math stuff, while vinyl is played in clear sight and touch and feel of the happy user; all the nastiness of digital is right there in your face, all that missing information, the serious lack of detail, while a top cartridge (hello Micro Benz), a top tonearm (fill in your choice around $3000. or $4000.) and a great turntable (sky's the limit, but make sure the platter is as heavy as a manhole cover and the motor is twelve feet away with one Aramid fibre only connecting it to the platter) hanging from the ceiling on stainless steel cables or put on a granite/steel/concrete reinforced structure weighing at least three metric tons and the surface noise divorces itself from the music to live in another sonic plane which is invisible to the listener; and the list goes on. Give me a break, the only thing I truly miss about lps is the cover art and liner notes large enough for my aging eyes to read. Nostalgia sure ain't what it used to be, but you know whatever gets you through the night! |
Yes, clueless, chocolate. REAL chocolate. Hershey is the Bose of chocolate. |
Hi Ken:
I'm in resounding support for the MMF-7. An unbelievable accompishment for under $1000. I have a couple of good ideas for a pre-owned table, but it might not be appropriate for me to discuss them in this forum, so call or write if you'd like.
Sincerely,
Mario |
Hey people,
I'm not the only one for the 1200s. I've been asked in the TNT-audio forums to give a detailed narrative of the steps to modding the 1200. People in Europe, Latin America and the Orient are using modded 1200s.
I carefully chose which TT I was going to buy. This was a well thought decision. The main reason that made me lean towards the 1200 was that Kevin of KAB Electroacoustics designed and markets a fluid damper for the tonearm. I have an old Disctracker headshell damper made by Discwasher. Those of you who have been in the hobby long enough will remember this little gadget. It totally transformed a Sumiko BP I used to own. Now, if you want that kind of feature you'd have to get an SME arm or similar. The silicone fluid will provide both lateral and vertical damping. Right now, using the HFNRR test record I'm getting a cartridge/tonearm resonance point of 15 Hz. The damping will bring that figure down a couple of HZ. Right in the sweet spot. So, with my Ortofon X5 MC and my Monolithic phono stage I will get some really decent analog sound for a reasonable expenditure...
Just be open minded and open eared... |
Jsbail- you wont go wrong with the rega table/arm
the grado woodies are a great match with these tables!
that thorens is a nice table too! great shopping spree dude!! |
js - go w/the lowest possible output your fono-stage can support - this will generally give the best sound, but there *are* nice-sounding hi-output cartridges... how's *that* for advice? ;~) enjoy, doug s. |
Getting back to Ken's confusion. I am in the process of going through this. Thought about the DJ table. Seems there is only one guy who thinks it is a good idea. Looked at the Basis. Decided it was too much money for starting out. Looked at Music Hall. Too cheap looking. Won an auction for a Thorens TD125MK2 on ebay for 200. Then a NIB Rega 25 came up for sale here for 900 and I bought it . Now I have two tables. Ken, if you are confused now, try cartridge selection. The Thorens comes with a cartridge, but I don't have it yet. I am shopping for a cartridge for the Rega. Thinking about getting a glider from juki when I figure out which output to go with.(see my thread) This is going to be fun. |
hey, jimbo, i use a 3bx, too! also in the tape loop, so it's not in the signal path when not in use. but, i find it more useful for increasing dynamic range, than for suppressing vinyl surface noise. in fact, it seems to get as much, if not more, use for cd's than vinyl, cuz they're so compressed! ;~) it also works great on compressed fm, but, fortunately, the stations i listen to, are relatively compression-free. that burwen tne sounds intriguing, but i dunno if it's really worth it, for the so-small number of vinyl discs where i feel it would be useful> :>) doug s. |
Good Bishop, I have to disagree with you.
Good beer and rare beef...it goes without saying. But chocolate???
Sincerely, I remain |
I've been collecting vinyls since I'm 5. When I've got my first cheap used Nad CD player and played "Dark Side of The Moon" (That was the first CD I've ever played back there) i was literally dissapointed with the sound. I was TOTALLY CONFUSED and by advise of my friend bought newer Marantz CD 67se. I continued to complain to my friend and he said me to hook up the turntable back and quit complaining.
That's what I did. One of my favorite Pink Floyd albumes "Dark Side of the Moon" "fries for me a bit of beacon" but I live with it and still listen to it.
The first thing to benefit from ANY turntable that vinyl is already in most cases better software than digital CD. |
Bishopwill-
Regarding surface noise (as well as the original question on cartridges)- I noticed a remarkable decrease in surface noise in going from a Sumiko Talisman (a somewhat modest high output MC) to a Benz LO.4.
To tell the complete story, originally had a P3 with the Talisman, then got a Well Tempered Classic and installed the Talisman. Some noise went away just in moving to the WT, but the REAL noise reduction came when the LO.4 was installed.
Additionally, I make judicious use of a DBX 3BX in the tape loop, which gets rid of ALOT of surface noise. While some may scoff at the extra connections and theoretical distortions from 'signal processing', friends are almost always surprised that an LP is playing because they don't hear the bacon frying in the backround and Phillips has convinced them that CDs sound "perfect". Except they now now that LPs can sound "perfecter". (Yeah, I know that ain't no good english, so you CD guys don't write me no letters...)
I also have a Burwen TNE that I haven't used in several years because I haven't heard much 'Rice Krispies' with this rig. Know anyone looking for a TNE?
This thread is making me hungry for some breakfast....
Regards
Jim |
bishopwell, i guess that's why there's more than one kinda car, and all ice cream ain't vanilla... ;~) i have excercised minimal care-n-feeding of vinyl in ~35 years of spinning it, and, while i acknowledge surface noise is an issue w/some albums, the overwhelming majority of 'em are emminently musical, w/o surface noise being a distraction, even the *oldies*. and, no edgy digital sound - who cares if the background is perfect, when the main event is irritating? :>) i do agree that, w/quality tubed electronics, and a good dac, the problems of redbook cd are diminishing. it was only w/in the past few months that i finally heard digital that i could *really* enjoy: a food-group, if you will. while i still long for the day that the software mfr's finally decide on a much-needed replacement for cd, so digital audio can lay waste to vinyl once & for all - no reason why it *shouldnt* be able to do so - at least, in the meantime, i can finally savor the taste of my digital software - *almost* as yummy as those big black 12" discs! ;~) doug s. |
Clueless (which you are far from, may I say), I really agree with you. At its best, vinyl offers lush, beautiful sound that, in my opinion, CAN BE but seldom IS matched by anything digital. It goes without saying, too, that there is an awful lot of wonderful material available only on vinyl. But from my perspective surface noise is a detriment to the listening experience that I find every bit as serious as the edgy sound of poor quality digital. And, while it is all very well to say that "if they sound like bacon they go to the trash," the truth is that if every LP with surface noise was discarded, there'd be damned few copies left to love.
Listening is for a me much more than a casual experience. It is a food group, right up there with rare beef, chocolate, and good beer. That's why I have Utopias, which I definitely CANNOT afford. My personal choice is to accept the steadily diminishing limitations of the digital domain in preference to the noise of vinyl and the time-consuming demands of its care and feeding.
I respect others who choose differently. One of the nice things about a-gon is that most people respect my choices, as well.
Keep having fun! |
FZX, you've got it nailed--totally. Ken, you need to start where the previous post starts. I've posted similar before:
Why are you going into analog? I would not recommend anyone w/out records to start analog, either...
Just give it some thought and if you still want the DJ TT, let me know and I'll help you. Sedond, did't you read the post about the guy who has Technics 1800's and an Oracle w/an SME arm? He wrote they are not too far apart--and that's w/out the fluid damper...maybe I'll catch up with you! And if so will probably overthrow you as a Bargain King! |
fzxguy forgot to mention that vinyl is a sobriety "monitor" as well. you can't get too wasted. You might trash your ry cooder mfsl jazz lp, or worse, your new uhqr pink floyd.
has this tread run it's course? |
Ok, I haven't read all the threads here, but I want to ask why you want to get in to high end vinyl?
A) If you already have a vinyl collection, proceed.
B) If you have a curiosity about the vinyl "buzz" proceed with caution.
C) If you are a audio hobbyist who wants something to do, proceed.
But if you are starting purely from scratch (no pun) and you want better sound, I would recommend spending that money on a CD upgrade, start buying dual layer CD's, and get a SACD player when you can afford it.
That said, know that I am 60% vinyl. (VPI 16.5 record cleaner, Oracle Delphi MkIII, Premier FT-4, Grado Sonata, ARC SP9 MkII, Bryston, Magnaplanar 2.7)
I enjoy vinyl because I have a lot of it with historic and sentimental value. I buy new and used vinyl, and, Yes when I A/B vinyl to CD I find that there is more music there. But I could not recommend to anyone to start a vinyl collection now without some serious motivation.
Unless you do SERIOUS listening, or have the musical values that vinyl lends itself to, wait out the new hi-res formats.
Now, if you have a collection to play. (A) go for your higher dollar solution. Get a VPI HW-19 JR, and upgrade it as necessary. IF your motivation is (B) get a used rega or MMF, and see how you like it. Or if you are a 'phile who wants a new and ongoing project (C) I'd shop audiogon for a higher end unit used. (always your best buy, but not always your best choice w/ dealer support and etc. considered.}
Vinyl is more than sound, it is a degree of dedication and a state of mind. And..... CD's don't have to sound that bad. |
i dunno whether or not a properly set-up technics 1200 is *better* than your typical rega, but i'd say it's at least on the same playing field. regardless of how much $$$ ya end up spending, be sure to purchase a used ' table: *so* much more bang-for-buck, especially if you're patient. on the low-end (pricewise), there's persently a cj walker cj55 w/a decent arm for something like $250. i owned one of these, & it's a very nice 'table - at least as nice as the rega p3. i tweeked it w/delrin armboard, all-corian suspension which i made for it, & some merril springs to deal w/the extra weight, & it got even better. of course, it's not as nice as my present oracle delphi, but again, buying used was a big plus - i got a great 'table, updated to mk-v specs w/exception of motor, w/a decent arm (that i didn't need) for $1250, & this included shipping and buying a brand-new $60 box, cuz the seller refused to ship w/o it... i have seen other similar-quality used 'tables at similar prices. oh, & as far as digital goes, well i guess you can spend thousands, but it won't approach the goodness of analog. doug s. |
Sometimes Im surprised at the end of the record because I forgot I was listening to LP not CD. Not all LPs are that quiet, but if they sound like bacon they go to the trash. The fact is most CD reissues I have dont sound as good as the original vinyl, and a lot of them are awful. VPI tables are a good place to start with an extensive ( and pretty simple) upgrade path. |
Ken-
What is confusing you, I think, are these references to all the tweaks, modifications, specifications and opinions. A few random thoughts- 1) Are all these guys that are spending time and $$$$$ modifying their gear THAT much smarter about such things AND have more/better test equipment, education and experience than the engineer that designed it to start with? 2) Does all of that time and $$$$ spent for modification really qualify as "no fussing"? 3) Comparing a $700 table to a $3000 table is futile. 4) There are usually multiple ways to solve any problem, but first there needs to be a problem. 5) When I first got involved with audio, I tried very hard to listen to a spec, but never heard one. 6) CDP makers brag about their players getting closer to sounding like analog, but when was the last time you heard a turntable maker brag about their product sounding like a CD?
Develop a short list of good used unmodified moderate-priced belt drive tables and reasonably good used high-output MC to get started. Most of them have already been mentioned above. Don't get wrapped around the axle about trying to achieve audio nirvana with $600 'cause it's not going to happen no matter what you get. But at least you'll get an idea what direction you want to go to get there.
Regards
Jim |
