Waxcylinder,
Make it easy on yourself. Find a used Rega for around $600, add a Grado cartridge for $100. Great learner table and quite respectable. |
Buy something simple like the Music Hall MMF-5 or MMF-7 to get started. If you can't it set it up and get it sounding decent in 20 minutes, then you need to forget audio. They only cost $500.00 and $1,000.00 new with a nice sounding Goldring cartridge, and the setup is easy and quick.
Buy some vinyl and play with the MMF a few months. You will start learning more about LP grading, turntable setup, cleaning LPs and styli, pressing quality, and on and on. IOW, there is no magic bullet. It's not like buying a CD player. There is some work involved. |
HI KEN
PLEASE CHECK OUT ALL THE MUSIC HALL TURNTABLES ON OUR SHOWCASE ON AUDIOGON OR AT http://www.musichallaudio.com/
THEY ARE ALL WONDERFUL TURNTABLES WITH A CARTRIGE INCLUDED .. ALL SET UP READY TO GO -- THERE ARE 3 MODELS -- THE 2.1 -- THE 5 AND THE 7
CHECK THEM OUT ---ALSO CHECK OUT THE GREAT REVIEWS ON THE MMF-7 IN STEREOPHILE MAG .. ABOUT 2 MONTHS AGO
ANY QUESTIONS DROP ME A LINE
GOOD LISTENING
STEPHEN |
confused,
celtic's advice will serve you well. a pre-owned rega may be
worth a look (recently on audioshopper for 300.00)
Also may browse for a Thoerns table in the classifieds. Recommend the TD-160 at 200 to 300. either way, cartridge
selection (to start)is grado, grado, grado. demand 40% off
of retail, and use an alignment tool to install. a 2 degree
error will destroy the stylus and vinyl promptly, and disappoint you sonically. it's worth paying to have it mounted and tested by a pro. your friend that says no sweat, he can do it for free, can't. enjoy! |
ken
listen to a rega p3 used or new with either a grado or a dynavector 10x4 cart. new, that will cost right at $1000 (with the dynavector) and will serve you very, very well. that was my first turntable set up and even though my turntable rig today costs nine times that, the rega still sounds incredible. my mother has a music hall and *i* prefer the stability and rigidity of the rega. the music hall sounds almost as good and costs way less, but i found it harder to set up and didn't like the feel of it, but that may not mean anything to you. for sure, check them both out (music hall 2.1 and rega p3) you can't go wrong either way. they're both fantastic turntables suited to all sorts of music, although it is my opinion that the p3/dynavector is *the* budget turntable choice, though others no doubt disagree.
let your ears be your guide and good luck! |
Well, If you can start higher you should go for Basis1400/RB300 combo and define for yourself a cartridge which you want to use. There are 4 variables in analogue playback: Table, Arm, Cartridge and Phono.
I've started from Rega p3 and I was pleased with it's performance for 6 months and desided to upgrade. If I started from Basis I would probably still keep it. |
Thanks, guys. I have been reading these posts extensivelly (hence the confusion) and I read some posts by Extremephono just bashing the Rega. It seems nobody could counter those viewpoints. Would that make the Rega the belt drive equivalent of the DJ turntable, then? I mean it's got to have so many things done--yet you guys seem to like it so much.
I just don't want to bother with changing this or that, adjusting things...
Ken |
Ken-
The suggestions in the posts so far have been pretty much on-target. I'll echo what has been about a good used Rega P3 or Music Hall for your quest in your lower price range, although you would need to be careful about Grado cartridges with the Rega as Grados have a tendency to hum which sometimes is exagerated by the Rega.
In your higher price point, the Basis 1400 that was previously mentioned should be on your short list, but you may want to consider the RB-250 arm which has already been modified by Origin Live to go along with it.
As a suggestion, you may want to get started with a good basic UNMODIFIED used table/cartridge like the ones already mentioned and use that as your reference point before you spend alot of money.
Regards
Jim |
Go with Classic WTT/WTA used on Audiogon for around 750$ sometime w/good condition quality cartridge.You will never come back. |
And develop an appetite for bacon because once you begin to listen to vinyl there will always be some frying in the background.
That's a JOKE, folks!!!! |
the regas don't need modification. they sound great right off. |
and also keep in mind that people use rega turntables for years without any of the problems others accuse them of having. |
Go to audioreview.com and get opinions from owners of most of the good tables listed above. Also audioadvisor.com has info if you have no good local dealer. The Rega and VPI units are real good high end units with various options and upgrades as you progress. I own a VPI Aries but the lower models are very good. Do not put most of your money in table extras before doing so in your cartridge - its the real telling tale area of analog along with your phono preamp. |
Ken,
I know this can be confusing...if you have read my posts you'll see that I was considering those European glass and particle board TTs. Then I started reading posts (in other forums, obviously) about modifying the 1200. Nothing spectacular to begin just changing the headshell wires and interconnects...and adding a good record clamp. So I did.
The unit is very user friendly, with a suspension that none of the above TTs can outperform. It also has the tonearm with the lowest bearing friction (Yeah I had that Rega leaflet titled "Listen to this" many years ago) Just a wonderful high end unit. Besides, it is the ONLY decent priced TT in which you can add a tonearm fluid damper, just like some very expensive tonearms. I just ordered mine yesterday ($149 from www.kabusa.com) and am looking forward to some heavy duty performance. None of the above TTs is in this league (sorry...).
When you add all things up, you will end up paying less than $1000 USD for a totally outstanding unit.
I empathise with you, but please don't make this sound like you're writing to Abby or Ann Landers!!!!!
Regards, |
Bishopwill, that is not a joke. I will simply add my two cents worth: aside from having a turntable for archival reasons (there still is great music that will never find its way unto cd) or simply because you are in need of a hands-on hobby, there is very little percentage in going the analogue/vinyl route. Whatever the highly touted "analogue" liqudity arguments from dyed-in-the-wool tt persons might say, for general listening of music with no background noise, and with all due respect to any dissenting opinions, cd is the way to go. Buy yourself $3,000 worth of cd.s, explore music you never even thought of buying, read up. If all else fails, some of the suggestions posted are corrrect. You can get a decent tt, arm, cartridge combo for not too much money. Leave this stuff about direct drive to djs. You will wind up with two hobbies: fussing with the tt. and going through bins for records, throwing out every second one because one can only eat so much bacon without having cholesterol problems. It's only a hobby. Don't you guys get all wound up now. |
Thanks, pbb. It really is only a joke because bacon isn't always frying. Sometimes popcorn is popping and occasionally kids are setting off firecrackers in the back yard.
My suggestion: Buy a really good CD player or transport/DAC combo, some good cables, and some good CDS. Meet your obsessive cleaning needs by helping your spouse around the house. Meet your needs for manual dexterity challenges by building ships in bottles.
But if you have fun doing vinyl, then do it and don't apologize (or hassle others who don't do it). |
Pbb, you get the point about records:
"You will wind up with two hobbies: fussing with the tt. and going through bins for records, throwing out every second one because one can only eat so much bacon without having cholesterol problems."
That's why I went for the 'DJ turntable'...no fussing.
However, Direct Drive is not just for DJs...otherwise records would be cut with belt drive systems--right?
There we go...I already have my TT--and just one hobby. I buy used records that for $2-$4 it's a very good deal to me. No problems. |
Well, I think lps and cds both have their place. If you want "general listening", and "no background noise" is your primary criteria, then you certainly can't argue with your argument about cds Pbb. I have been hoping that technology would step in and put an end to this dilemma with some miracle technology, but ...it seems we are moving toward HT and MP3. There is a good argument that these are suitable for general listening. Likely that quite a few will argue that MP3 and downloading is so easy that "there is very little percentage" in cds. I think they will have lost something.
Have you seen some of the audio systems around here? There seem to be folks interested in more than "general listening." If you have a pair of Mezzo Utopias in your listening room and like to discuss the suitability of Vienna Mahler speakers for orchestral music, as does the good Bishop, it seems to me you have more on your mind than "general listening." That being said he is not an lp fan and does not like the "bacon problem". Only goes to show.
I certainly like your point that we should listen to more music and not obsess on the tech stuff.
Sincerely, I remain |
This has become more confusing now!
Psychicanimal, you definitely have some arguments that the others can't seem to contradict by reasoning, only by regarding your table as 'DJ quality'. I read your post about the electrical engineer who has one. I have seen no tonearm dampers for Rega, Music Hall, Project, Basis or VPI. So what you propose is a viable alternative. Now, how good can that table really be? I mean, there's some real quiet belt drives in this thread...belt is quieter, from what I understand.
Clueless, can we trade usernames?
Ken |
Collecting/cleaning vinyl is fun! wanna pay $16 for a CD when you can get better sound from a free or 25 cent LP.Cant get new releases on vinyl? ha! too many to even try to list are avaliable on vinyl.Many times a few dollars cheaper than the CD version.Who spends lots of time 'fussing' with a turntable? Not me! A few minutes to set it up and thats it.If ya want to tweak your table,fine.Tweaking is a big part of this hobby and isnt exclusive just with turntables.Surface noise with vinyl? Sure,if you have an abused copy.If I get a copy of a LP that isnt quiet enough I just find a better copy.Most of my LP's are as quiet as a CD.If there is a bit of surface noise its only audible between tracks.I only recently bought a decent CDP.I listen to CD's much more now than I have in the past.When I do my most serious listening though vinyl is the choice I make.As far as what turntable to buy.Get the best used table you can afford.I wont recommend any.A used table/arm for around $1000 and new cartridge for around $500 will get you 70-80% of what the best analog set up can offer.Keep asking questions,do research and listen to tables if you can.You will make the right decision in time.Be cool and dont hurry. |
Ken-
What is confusing you, I think, are these references to all the tweaks, modifications, specifications and opinions. A few random thoughts- 1) Are all these guys that are spending time and $$$$$ modifying their gear THAT much smarter about such things AND have more/better test equipment, education and experience than the engineer that designed it to start with? 2) Does all of that time and $$$$ spent for modification really qualify as "no fussing"? 3) Comparing a $700 table to a $3000 table is futile. 4) There are usually multiple ways to solve any problem, but first there needs to be a problem. 5) When I first got involved with audio, I tried very hard to listen to a spec, but never heard one. 6) CDP makers brag about their players getting closer to sounding like analog, but when was the last time you heard a turntable maker brag about their product sounding like a CD?
Develop a short list of good used unmodified moderate-priced belt drive tables and reasonably good used high-output MC to get started. Most of them have already been mentioned above. Don't get wrapped around the axle about trying to achieve audio nirvana with $600 'cause it's not going to happen no matter what you get. But at least you'll get an idea what direction you want to go to get there.
Regards
Jim |
Sometimes Im surprised at the end of the record because I forgot I was listening to LP not CD. Not all LPs are that quiet, but if they sound like bacon they go to the trash. The fact is most CD reissues I have dont sound as good as the original vinyl, and a lot of them are awful. VPI tables are a good place to start with an extensive ( and pretty simple) upgrade path. |
i dunno whether or not a properly set-up technics 1200 is *better* than your typical rega, but i'd say it's at least on the same playing field. regardless of how much $$$ ya end up spending, be sure to purchase a used ' table: *so* much more bang-for-buck, especially if you're patient. on the low-end (pricewise), there's persently a cj walker cj55 w/a decent arm for something like $250. i owned one of these, & it's a very nice 'table - at least as nice as the rega p3. i tweeked it w/delrin armboard, all-corian suspension which i made for it, & some merril springs to deal w/the extra weight, & it got even better. of course, it's not as nice as my present oracle delphi, but again, buying used was a big plus - i got a great 'table, updated to mk-v specs w/exception of motor, w/a decent arm (that i didn't need) for $1250, & this included shipping and buying a brand-new $60 box, cuz the seller refused to ship w/o it... i have seen other similar-quality used 'tables at similar prices. oh, & as far as digital goes, well i guess you can spend thousands, but it won't approach the goodness of analog. doug s. |
Ok, I haven't read all the threads here, but I want to ask why you want to get in to high end vinyl?
A) If you already have a vinyl collection, proceed.
B) If you have a curiosity about the vinyl "buzz" proceed with caution.
C) If you are a audio hobbyist who wants something to do, proceed.
But if you are starting purely from scratch (no pun) and you want better sound, I would recommend spending that money on a CD upgrade, start buying dual layer CD's, and get a SACD player when you can afford it.
That said, know that I am 60% vinyl. (VPI 16.5 record cleaner, Oracle Delphi MkIII, Premier FT-4, Grado Sonata, ARC SP9 MkII, Bryston, Magnaplanar 2.7)
I enjoy vinyl because I have a lot of it with historic and sentimental value. I buy new and used vinyl, and, Yes when I A/B vinyl to CD I find that there is more music there. But I could not recommend to anyone to start a vinyl collection now without some serious motivation.
Unless you do SERIOUS listening, or have the musical values that vinyl lends itself to, wait out the new hi-res formats.
Now, if you have a collection to play. (A) go for your higher dollar solution. Get a VPI HW-19 JR, and upgrade it as necessary. IF your motivation is (B) get a used rega or MMF, and see how you like it. Or if you are a 'phile who wants a new and ongoing project (C) I'd shop audiogon for a higher end unit used. (always your best buy, but not always your best choice w/ dealer support and etc. considered.}
Vinyl is more than sound, it is a degree of dedication and a state of mind. And..... CD's don't have to sound that bad. |
fzxguy forgot to mention that vinyl is a sobriety "monitor" as well. you can't get too wasted. You might trash your ry cooder mfsl jazz lp, or worse, your new uhqr pink floyd.
has this tread run it's course? |
FZX, you've got it nailed--totally. Ken, you need to start where the previous post starts. I've posted similar before:
Why are you going into analog? I would not recommend anyone w/out records to start analog, either...
Just give it some thought and if you still want the DJ TT, let me know and I'll help you. Sedond, did't you read the post about the guy who has Technics 1800's and an Oracle w/an SME arm? He wrote they are not too far apart--and that's w/out the fluid damper...maybe I'll catch up with you! And if so will probably overthrow you as a Bargain King! |
Clueless (which you are far from, may I say), I really agree with you. At its best, vinyl offers lush, beautiful sound that, in my opinion, CAN BE but seldom IS matched by anything digital. It goes without saying, too, that there is an awful lot of wonderful material available only on vinyl. But from my perspective surface noise is a detriment to the listening experience that I find every bit as serious as the edgy sound of poor quality digital. And, while it is all very well to say that "if they sound like bacon they go to the trash," the truth is that if every LP with surface noise was discarded, there'd be damned few copies left to love.
Listening is for a me much more than a casual experience. It is a food group, right up there with rare beef, chocolate, and good beer. That's why I have Utopias, which I definitely CANNOT afford. My personal choice is to accept the steadily diminishing limitations of the digital domain in preference to the noise of vinyl and the time-consuming demands of its care and feeding.
I respect others who choose differently. One of the nice things about a-gon is that most people respect my choices, as well.
Keep having fun! |
bishopwell, i guess that's why there's more than one kinda car, and all ice cream ain't vanilla... ;~) i have excercised minimal care-n-feeding of vinyl in ~35 years of spinning it, and, while i acknowledge surface noise is an issue w/some albums, the overwhelming majority of 'em are emminently musical, w/o surface noise being a distraction, even the *oldies*. and, no edgy digital sound - who cares if the background is perfect, when the main event is irritating? :>) i do agree that, w/quality tubed electronics, and a good dac, the problems of redbook cd are diminishing. it was only w/in the past few months that i finally heard digital that i could *really* enjoy: a food-group, if you will. while i still long for the day that the software mfr's finally decide on a much-needed replacement for cd, so digital audio can lay waste to vinyl once & for all - no reason why it *shouldnt* be able to do so - at least, in the meantime, i can finally savor the taste of my digital software - *almost* as yummy as those big black 12" discs! ;~) doug s. |
Bishopwill-
Regarding surface noise (as well as the original question on cartridges)- I noticed a remarkable decrease in surface noise in going from a Sumiko Talisman (a somewhat modest high output MC) to a Benz LO.4.
To tell the complete story, originally had a P3 with the Talisman, then got a Well Tempered Classic and installed the Talisman. Some noise went away just in moving to the WT, but the REAL noise reduction came when the LO.4 was installed.
Additionally, I make judicious use of a DBX 3BX in the tape loop, which gets rid of ALOT of surface noise. While some may scoff at the extra connections and theoretical distortions from 'signal processing', friends are almost always surprised that an LP is playing because they don't hear the bacon frying in the backround and Phillips has convinced them that CDs sound "perfect". Except they now now that LPs can sound "perfecter". (Yeah, I know that ain't no good english, so you CD guys don't write me no letters...)
I also have a Burwen TNE that I haven't used in several years because I haven't heard much 'Rice Krispies' with this rig. Know anyone looking for a TNE?
This thread is making me hungry for some breakfast....
Regards
Jim |
I've been collecting vinyls since I'm 5. When I've got my first cheap used Nad CD player and played "Dark Side of The Moon" (That was the first CD I've ever played back there) i was literally dissapointed with the sound. I was TOTALLY CONFUSED and by advise of my friend bought newer Marantz CD 67se. I continued to complain to my friend and he said me to hook up the turntable back and quit complaining.
That's what I did. One of my favorite Pink Floyd albumes "Dark Side of the Moon" "fries for me a bit of beacon" but I live with it and still listen to it.
The first thing to benefit from ANY turntable that vinyl is already in most cases better software than digital CD. |
Good Bishop, I have to disagree with you.
Good beer and rare beef...it goes without saying. But chocolate???
Sincerely, I remain |
hey, jimbo, i use a 3bx, too! also in the tape loop, so it's not in the signal path when not in use. but, i find it more useful for increasing dynamic range, than for suppressing vinyl surface noise. in fact, it seems to get as much, if not more, use for cd's than vinyl, cuz they're so compressed! ;~) it also works great on compressed fm, but, fortunately, the stations i listen to, are relatively compression-free. that burwen tne sounds intriguing, but i dunno if it's really worth it, for the so-small number of vinyl discs where i feel it would be useful> :>) doug s. |
Getting back to Ken's confusion. I am in the process of going through this. Thought about the DJ table. Seems there is only one guy who thinks it is a good idea. Looked at the Basis. Decided it was too much money for starting out. Looked at Music Hall. Too cheap looking. Won an auction for a Thorens TD125MK2 on ebay for 200. Then a NIB Rega 25 came up for sale here for 900 and I bought it . Now I have two tables. Ken, if you are confused now, try cartridge selection. The Thorens comes with a cartridge, but I don't have it yet. I am shopping for a cartridge for the Rega. Thinking about getting a glider from juki when I figure out which output to go with.(see my thread) This is going to be fun. |
js - go w/the lowest possible output your fono-stage can support - this will generally give the best sound, but there *are* nice-sounding hi-output cartridges... how's *that* for advice? ;~) enjoy, doug s. |
Jsbail- you wont go wrong with the rega table/arm
the grado woodies are a great match with these tables!
that thorens is a nice table too! great shopping spree dude!! |
Hey people,
I'm not the only one for the 1200s. I've been asked in the TNT-audio forums to give a detailed narrative of the steps to modding the 1200. People in Europe, Latin America and the Orient are using modded 1200s.
I carefully chose which TT I was going to buy. This was a well thought decision. The main reason that made me lean towards the 1200 was that Kevin of KAB Electroacoustics designed and markets a fluid damper for the tonearm. I have an old Disctracker headshell damper made by Discwasher. Those of you who have been in the hobby long enough will remember this little gadget. It totally transformed a Sumiko BP I used to own. Now, if you want that kind of feature you'd have to get an SME arm or similar. The silicone fluid will provide both lateral and vertical damping. Right now, using the HFNRR test record I'm getting a cartridge/tonearm resonance point of 15 Hz. The damping will bring that figure down a couple of HZ. Right in the sweet spot. So, with my Ortofon X5 MC and my Monolithic phono stage I will get some really decent analog sound for a reasonable expenditure...
Just be open minded and open eared... |
Hi Ken:
I'm in resounding support for the MMF-7. An unbelievable accompishment for under $1000. I have a couple of good ideas for a pre-owned table, but it might not be appropriate for me to discuss them in this forum, so call or write if you'd like.
Sincerely,
Mario |
Yes, clueless, chocolate. REAL chocolate. Hershey is the Bose of chocolate. |
Talk about confusion! Now we learn that cds are compressed! Oh yes, it's getting clearer now: cds have less dynamic range than lps; lps have better s/n ratio than cds; polycarbonate will disintegrate in five years, while vinyl is so stable it only gets mangled by a diamond stylus applying tons of pressure per sq. in. every time it's played; analog is more natural (the way God intended music to be reproduced), while digital is only numbers that can't possibly correlate with music, which is a spiritual experience; digital is harsh, while analog/vinyl is liquid and open and sweet and has that nice steady reassuring background noise plus all those attractive impulse noises to reassure you that the record is actually spinning, while cds have a pitch black, dark, gloomy, unnatural background; cds are sneaky little monstrosities that hide inside a skimpy little drawer doing their nasty Nyquist approved math stuff, while vinyl is played in clear sight and touch and feel of the happy user; all the nastiness of digital is right there in your face, all that missing information, the serious lack of detail, while a top cartridge (hello Micro Benz), a top tonearm (fill in your choice around $3000. or $4000.) and a great turntable (sky's the limit, but make sure the platter is as heavy as a manhole cover and the motor is twelve feet away with one Aramid fibre only connecting it to the platter) hanging from the ceiling on stainless steel cables or put on a granite/steel/concrete reinforced structure weighing at least three metric tons and the surface noise divorces itself from the music to live in another sonic plane which is invisible to the listener; and the list goes on. Give me a break, the only thing I truly miss about lps is the cover art and liner notes large enough for my aging eyes to read. Nostalgia sure ain't what it used to be, but you know whatever gets you through the night! |
Pbb, Sedond did not say CDs are compressed. He said that in some poorly produced CDs the music has ben compressed. I notice this unfortunate phenomenom on a lot of my salsa CDs as well as pop Anglo music. If there's something in my list of gadgets is an expander, too.
I hear you, there is an analog cult going around...that's why they don't wanna hear that my modded 'DJ' TT really performs outstandingly. It's simply 'not possible'...you've got to 'have' this TT exactly how you described.
The manhole cover...good one! |
Pbb-have you ever heard a good analog front end?
Have you ever compared a $1000 analog front end to a $4000-$5000 CDP?? |
pbb, my simple-to-set-up analog rig cost me yust under $2k, cartridge included. platter is a couple pounds, motor tucked snugly underneath, driven by a simple $2 belt from mcm electronics. it will provide a more musical experience than any digital rig at any price. the previous table it replaced, i had ~$350 into it, & while not up to my present 'table, it will still hold its own w/the best that digital has to offer... and, psychic has it correct - cd has the *potential* for wide dynamic range; unfortunately is is not often utilized. even tho my dbx 3bx is not always in the signal path, cuz its in the tape loop, it's always tracking the signal, & it's really easy to see & compare the dynamic range of the program material, by the the way the lights are blinking, indicating the dynamics of whatever's being played. hey, don't get me wrong, i enjoy my digital playback rig. but let's not delude ourselves! ;~) doug s. btw, david99, ya gotta spend a lot more than $4k for a cd to compete w/a $1k analog rig... or ~$350 for a modified art di/o... ;~) |
Sedond, any digital at any price? Analog/vinyl reproduction is a system that is flawed from the get-go. Our ears must be really different and I am not proposing that mine are in any way superior. Strange thing, my wife can be in the car while I am listening to the radio and when I comment on something tells me she wasn't listening, simply turned her ears off she says. She insists it has nothing to do with not paying attention and insists she is filtering out unwanted signals. Says she gets it from her less than happy childhood. After all these years I am stupid enough to believe her. Could we be on to something: you can actually filter out background noise and impulse noise and just enjoy the music. I, on the other hand, am devoid of such filtration which prevents me from enjoying the music. See, put this way, I don't hear any better than you, I just hear differently. I have a long spiel saved on my hard drive about my opinion on analog/vinyl. I will not post it for two reasons: firstly, it will be judged inflammatory (hardly is, I can assure you); secondly, it will probably bore everyone to tears, since I have already vented on that subject in the past. You are an avid proponent of analogue/vinyl, more power to you, nobody can take that away from you (with the real exception of the recording industry over which neither you nor I have any control). On a balance of inconvenience, to use injunction language, I am of the opinion that the clear winner is digital/CD reproduction, teething pains and all. It takes all kinds. Regards. |
David 99. Please tell me what is a good analog front end and I will make every attempt to hear it. Please tell me if such a rig will give me a system where I can enjoy even the silence integral to music and delicate instruments such as solo classical guitar, without having impulse noise intrude and kill the spell for me. I am not kidding, I will take my best vinyl and will gladly give it the best, most open-minded, fairest audition I can. What I fear is that you, or someone else, will come back to tell me that the turntable/arm/cartridge combo was the right one but that it was not properly set-up, that the phono-stage was the limiting factor, that the record I used should have been wet or dry, or that too much static electricity was in the air, or the cabinet on which the turntable was placed was all wrong, should be decoupled from the room or really coupled to it, like a a monolithic concrete structure immune from vibration, etc. You see, not that my goal is to win any argument on the subject, but I cannot possibly reach a point were both you, and like-minded people, and I, and like-minded people, will be satisfied either way. If you add to that that there is a growing belief in audiophile circles that there is no objective standard against which to judge music reproduction, you can then pretty well see that we are talking at cross purposes. To paraphrase a great champion: " I ain't got no fight against them analog/vinyl guys". Best regards. |
Pbb, I hear you. However, I just do not understand that you can't find vinyl more musical. My 'amiga' knows nothing about audio and she can tell that my analog rig sounds better. So does another good friend who came for a listen. It was a no brainer decision. Yes, there is impulse noise...but there is also more music. Unfortunately, it should NOT be that way. Digital SHOULD be better. But it's not, at the time.
It is very unfortunate that we humans are like we are. The CD format was lauched well before it should have. VHS ruled over Beta. DVDs over Laser Discs. Now they want MP3-like formats in order to copy protect. Sad, isn't it? |
Pbb,
I, at least, know where you are coming from. Sold my vinyl, my Linn, my Koetsu, my Keith Monks, et alia, years ago. Put the money into equipment that was good enough to be highly listenable but not so costly that I wouldn't be willing to turn it over regularly as the medium advanced. That philosophy still obtains and I am currently using a Rega Jupiter 2000 with a trade-up on the horizon in the next six months or so depending on the SACD/DVD-A silliness.
I've not regretted that decision, though I enjoy the occasional vinyl listening session with friends who unanimously think that I've either (1) sold out to technology, (2) suffered hearing loss, or (3) never had the right equipment/had it set up right from the git-go.
That being said, I have long been willing to acknowledge that vinyl has a warmth and liquidity that most CD systems/software lack. Some cynics say it is distortion but no matter, it sounds very nice. It is, however, a slight difference (despite what the vinylphiles say) and getting slighter with each passing month.
The point that I keep trying to make--and I think that you are trying to make--is that surface noise is every bit as valid a variable of determination in the listening experience as evanescent liquidity. The vinylphile says, "How can you give up that luscious sound?" and I reply, "How can you fail to be maddeningly distracted by surface noise?" Both are legitimate viewpoints, neither inherently superior to the other.
My appeal, as always, is for folks to quit preaching and pronouncing at each other and just go have fun. |
I'm having a little difficulty undestanding why there are numerous off-subject posts on this thread, especially the diatribes against analog. Audiogon provides a nifty forum for digital for those who are so inclined.
How is this type of post helping Ken get started in analog?? PBB, perhaps you could start the ball rolling???
Forgive me if this post sounds strident, but if one doesn't like analog, why would one spend so much time here? I'm a sailor and don't care much for powerboats, but I don't spend my weekends at the power boat dealership haranguing their customers- I simply go sailing!!
Please, and with all sincerity, could any one of the analog-averse posters fill me in on why you are here and how the analog community is benefitting?
Sincerely
Jim
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Good Bishop, I believe I have finally found the answer. Do you get chocolate in your vinyl? Explains a lot.
All Jokes aside, do you have to be a Bishop and a psychotherapist to attain that nice balance of view? I fear I have no chance.
Sincerely, I remain |
jimbo3 - *thank* you!!! ;~) perhaps pbb's point to waxcylinder (those cylinders sound *much* better tha 12" vinyl, doncha know?) is: *don't bother* to get into analog. the main argument *against* analog, (which doesen't hold much water for me and my ears) is that analog has more background surface noise. as i said earlier: "...while i acknowledge surface noise is an issue w/some albums, the overwhelming majority of 'em are emminently musical, w/o surface noise being a distraction, even the *oldies*. and, no edgy digital sound - who cares if the background is perfect, when the main event is irritating? :>) ..." there is so much *music* on vinyl, it's easy *for me* to hear around the surface noise of all but the poorest-condition records. perhaps it's due to the fact that i've ben spinning viny since i was seven years old, & i'm used to it. mebbe a vinyl *newbie* couldn't cope. doug s. btw, an aside to bishopwell: invest in a modified art di/o dac, & get the best you're ever gonna get out of redbook cd w/o taking out another mortgage on your house. |
You're right, Jimbo, it DOES sound strident and I wonder why? Mercy sakes, my friend, don't you READ what people write? I'll let pbb speak for himself but in my case I AM NOT ANALOG ADVERSE. I have been and will continue to be complimentary to and appreciative of good analog sound.
I made the conscious, deliberate choice to give up vinyl (of which I had a lot) and get rid of my analog equipment (which was eminently respectable and in which I had invested a lot of money) because I found surface noise more of a detriment to my listening enjoyment than the benefit of analog sound compared to digital.
Jimbo, did you ever hear someone say that they chose XXX speaker because it had such a phenomenal midrange (for example) even though they acknowledged that it didn't have such a totally wonderful low end or top end? Do you know of anyone who chose imaging and soundstage over maximum tonal accuracy or vice versa?
This is what we are talking about. It isn't a matter of being "analog adverse." For goodness sake, you'll hear a lot more negativity on the dear old 'gon about digital than you ever will about analog. It's a matter of people making personal choices that reflect their values in music appreciation.
Why get so exercised over something that's supposed to be fun?
Will |
