Hello all, Recently procured a Feickert Blackbird w/ the Jelco 12 inch tonearm. The table is really good, and its a keeper. The Jelco is also very good, but not as good as my Fidelity Research FR66s. So the Jelco will eventually hit Ebay, and the question remains do I keep the FR66s or sell that and buy something modern in the 5-6 K range. My only point of reference is my old JMW-10 on my Aries MK1, so I don't know how the FR66s would compare to a modern arm. So I'd like to rely on the collective knowledge and experience of this group for a recommendation.
Keep the FR66s, or go modern in the 5-6K range, say a Moerch DP8 or maybe an SME.
Any and all thoughts and opinions are of course much appreciated.
Hello ct0517, It's clear from your response, and I'm guessing, of course, that the Ct in your name stands for CT in the good old USA, as I am also from CT and experiencing EXACTLY what you describe in the weather pattern.
was -13 this AM when I got up, with a wind chill of -34F. A tad colder than we're used to here.
It's even to cold to fish ( and that's cold ).
I'm going to look into the ET arms. At this point, anything goes. Thanks for the tip.
BTW CT0517, I'm trying to be as patient as possible, though it DOES NOT come naturally.
**Unipivots works during playing in continuous desequilibrium, its bearing damping is not to really damp the whole tonearm but, mainly, trying to put at minimum that unstability during playing and that’s all.**
A unipivot maintains stability by the distribution of mass and the center of gravity in relation to the pivot. It's like a platter on the bearing. A well designed table will have the mass of the platter distributed so it does not have a tendency to wobble. If the center of gravity is too low or high, it will be unstable.
Some unipivots use no fluid. How would they work if they relied on fluid? A unipivot feels unstable with manual cueing because there's no weight on the stylus. The system isn't loaded. As soon as you let it go, the cart straightens. If the bearing was in a constant state of disequilibrium (good one), you would not be able to listen to it. A fluid damped unipivot is damped, any way you cut it. There might be suggestions for the amount and viscosity of the fluid.
Neither the DP8 or 507 II are unipivots. They both use high mass (inertia) in the horizontal plane to optimize tracking and bass response. The difference between bearing friction and high inertia is in the type of resistance to movement. Effective mass and inertia are the same.
The 507 is designed to have high inertia (mass) laterally. You call it friction, but it's part of the design. Less than 50mg lateral sensitivity and less than 40mg vertically - also part of the design. The little vertical arm is so light, that pivot is damped to keep it from flying away. With all the damping going on, I would think you would be enthusiastic.
You're innocent until proven guilty? You keep saying the same thing over and over as if that makes you right. As soon as the thread gets interesting you start up again. You're the only one trying to prove something. Lighten up, life's too short.
While I love how digital keeps improving, assuming it is perfect Is a non-starter for me. I guess, when digital sound, near its beginning, reminded me of AM radio, but was called, "perfect sound forever", it has left me skeptical.
Dear ct0517: Yes I said that and I’m still with: the ET is an Icon in the audio history.
My first tangential arm was the Dennesen ( that unfortunatelly I sold it. ) followed by the Southern and then the ET and after that I listen several tangential arms like the Rockport, Walker and Kuzma.
Nothing is perfect, tangential arms makes verty especial kind of sound from mid bass and up that for some of us could make the difference. I was with my ET till its ET 2 version and then sold and from all my experiences with this kind of arm design the one that I " keep " it is the ET but I like a little more the overall quality performance of a well designed and a well excuted design on pivot tonearms.
I’m with you in almost all about the ET but things are that my main audio/music priorities are a little different from yours, that’s all. Seems to me that the fact that the pivoted arms are true grounded to earth ( to arm board and then TT, and then platform and then to floor and and ) instead in the air gives that bass range characteristics I posted that air bearing does not have.
Can I live with the ET tonearm? sure I can as any one else.
It's an AudioGon forum search on ET2 Yellow Sticky
I think I evolved into some sort of project manager on this thread ? Now if I can just find a real project management job that lets me work from home........
You can read the manual too available as a download from Eminent Technology here.
But I think the ET 2 thread is more fun. I feel we learn better when it is fun. Any questions please say hi on the ET 2 thread.
My moniker Ct0517 - are my initials and month/day I joined on here. I am in Southern Ontario, south of Lake Simcoe.
**********************
Hi Raul I would not be happy with the ET 1 myself. The ET 2.0 and 2.5 allow you to tune the I Beam compliance for different compliance cartridges. No other tonearm I am aware of allows for this. If I was using only MM's I would stick with the ET 2.0 hpm - high pressure manifold. It was introduced when MM's were most popular. That is the tonearm I use in Room B. But my main cartridges are MC. The 2.5 is designed with a thicker lower resonance spindle for MC's.
I had Bruce build me a special ET 2.5.
Now you can use MC's on the 2.0 version and MM's on the 2.5 version; and in fact a better setup 2.0 version with an MC, will outperform a weaker setup 2.5 version with an MC. Its all about setup. But for most potential, the general guide is MM's with the 2.0, MC's with the 2.5.
The Air Bearing affords isolation, and allows me to run a straight shot of unshielded wiring. The person that makes the loom - Take Five Audio, tells me NO pivot arm customers can use this loom for two reasons.
1) The erratic pivot arm, armtube behavior with the attached external wire. All pivot arms are like buying a new car with a low front right tire. The only way to fix it - lower pressure in the front left tire. Called antiskating.
2) Hum issues with the pivot tonearm itself being being bolted to the plinth. Multiple grounds are not a good thing Raul.
Remember a long time ago we used to plug all our stuff into the back of the preamp ?
Dear chris: """
Multiple grounds are not a good thing Raul. """
I don't explained well whar I really want mean:
when I said " grounded " I'm refering a mechanical grounded not electrical. Air bearing tonearm are " floating " and pivot ones are mechanical grounded and maybe this solid " grounded " bering/surface or whatever is what gives that overall " solidity " to that bass range against a vaccum bearing and I said: " seems to me ", only an opinion.
I use MM and MC cartridges and with my ET 2 90% of the time was with MC ones. Your information about is appreciated.
"""
The erratic pivot arm, armtube behavior with the attached external wire
.."""
I respect that Take Five people but I kow they have not real experiences with an external tonearm wire or at least not the right ones.
I try it this for the first time several years ago with my SAEC pivoted tonearms ( 506/8000 ) through the silver Van den Hul wires that gone directly from the cartridge output pins connectors to the phono stage inputs. After that I tryed with other of my pivoted tonearms and with diferent silver wires including the almost non-existen silver Audio Note that are almost " mechanical resistence cero ". So, that TF people have to try it again before give that kind of advise
Dear fleib: """ A unipivot maintains stability by the distribution of mass and the center of gravity in relation to the pivot. .......... If the center of gravity is too low or high, it will be unstable. """
Weight or no weight during playing stability is not mantained:
a friend of mine that is a scientist and was the director of science area in the principal of México universities and that works for the NASA and today is working somewhere in Asia has three hobbies: first how the Universe born?, live music and home audio system to listen music.
One day I received a call from he to invite me the Sunday of that week to one of the University science laboratory and that’s the only information he gaves me. I attend to and he brought his TT with two mounted tonearms ( the one that uses I seen at his home. ) and 3-4 LPs and our meeting main target was to observe through an electronic microscope the cartridge ridding on the LPs at microscopic level ( I only seen that through internet latter on. ), I was really exited to see it for the first time in my life live. Everything started and through a screen I seen those LP groove modulations in macroscopic way even at normal speed and in low and very low motion. Both very well regarded tonearms and cartridges ( but diferent in between. ). We were seen it different kind of track modulations including the 1812 overture and was amazing to see what really happen there when the cartridge is " fighting " against those modulations to ridding it.
Well, suddenly I noted/observed that in one of cartridge/tonearm combinations exist a very especial kind of minuscle motions when seen in low motion status through the micro screen and I told to my friend and as a researcher he wanted to " investigate " what could be happening in that combination and over some tests/views that he runned we took in count that those minuscle motions were coming from the tonearm pivot. Then he did it the same tests with the other cartridge combination and had not those minuscle motions. This combination was with a gimball tonearm and the other was an unipivot design.
I don’t took this in count was only an experience and I bought unipivots tonearms additional to the pivoted ones but " today " that " old " experience was and is a learning one.
What produce that to low or high center of gravity in any pivoted tonearm design is that the cartridge could starts to mistracking.
""" The difference between bearing friction and high inertia is in the type of resistance to movement. Effective mass and inertia are the same. """
everyone knows that and as many times happens my meaning was not to ask that
""" Neither the DP8 or 507 II are unipivots. They both use high mass (inertia) in the horizontal plane to optimize tracking and bass response """
I can’t speak for the DP8 but for the 505/507 and I can tell you that the bass response is not up to the quality level in other more " simple " tonearm designs. So, for me is a faulty design, not a bad one because nothing is perfect but maybe you can tell us the 505/507 first hand advantages through your experiences.
Btw, all your posts comes to tell you disagree with my experiences/opinions but with no better solutions to.
The three ( 3 ) questions I did it to you are in stand by by you with no single answer.
Now, please tell us your overall solution to wrm ( op ) and why that solution is better than mine. Why your solution or solutions meets better the cartridge needs? WHY?
I hope that sometime you can answer about.
If you decide don’t post your answers is useless and futile you go on and on " over " me because you share no real contribution to help.
Raul, Nice story, but it's a little hard to believe. You and your scientist friend are in a lab playing records and watching the stylus with an electron microscope? This was at normal speed and slow motion.
You can't see a record groove with an electron microscope unless it's painted with conductive coating. Vinyl is an insulator. Must have been a pretty big scope to fit the record player. Check this out:
Even if your story is true, it's an anecdote about one particular unnamed pair of tonearms. You think there are better arms than the 507 II. Okay we get it, but not everyone agrees with you. I read 2 reviews of the arm and the reviewers bought it from Dynavector. Probably a decent arm?
What don't you understand about bearing friction and inertia?
Rauliruegas, re your 2/14 2:19pm post...Yep, agreed. An air bearing arm, properly set up, in MHO, just seems to have less 'compromises' in play then any pivoted arm. As to less bass, well, that's one out of how many other observations that can be brought into play. *shrug* Even the 'less bass' observation may be subject to the cart mounted on the arm, and *horrors* subject to 'perception' and 'taste' in the material being played.
The comments on tonearms, carts, and 'set up' of these seems to be akin to politics in it's ability to rankle and trigger no less than 5 and growing pages of posts just tickles me. This 'discussion' starts to remind me of the whole 'tar baby effect' in the Middle East. They've been going on for centuries. I'm just happy that some of the more 'excitable' posters don't have access to drones. It gets ugly enough, and it's just pixels on a screen....
Guy shows up, wants to play a friendly game of catch, and some participants start throwing rocks at each other...AGAIN. *sigh* 'Twas always thus...
I'm going to go listen to some music, have a nice cup of tea, and come back to this thread in a week just to see if it finally imploded AG's server.
asvjerry I'm going to go listen to some music, have a nice cup of tea, and come back to this thread in a week just to see if it finally imploded AG's server.
Asvjerry Sorry to disappoint you, but imo this thread is not even close. Not even on the radar. If I was a betting man, my money is on the Fusers thread to take down this site. Imagine if you will the posts, stories that would result, if they coordinated a movement, and all of them reversed their fuse directions.... at the same time.
Fleib - Frank Schroeder likes the Dynavector tonearm’s bass and had this to say.
The Dynavector’s excellent bass rendition predominatly stems from the (eddy current)damping in the lateral plane. It’s mass distribution is another reason. Bass below 100Hz is cut in mono, purely lateral...
I also remember years ago in talking with Bruce Thigpen; I could tell by his voice that he thought it was a really interesting tonearm. I had the DV505 in my main room for quite some time with the ET 2.0 and 2.5. I liked it a lot. But in that room with those at the time 801 monitors; I could hear when the Dyna hit the two sweet spots on the record. Still own it.
" ... Raul,
Nice story, but it's a little hard to believe. You and your scientist
friend are in a lab playing records and watching the stylus with an
electron microscope? This was at normal speed and slow motion..."
It's obviously a fabricated story, fleib. Raul is really confused.
Dear ct0517: With all respect, a tonearm designer not necessary is an experienced audiophile. Some are but not all.
The needs on experienced audiophiles are almost the same and many times not easy to express/talk, anyway as me is only another opinions. Btw, neither the Schroede or ET tonearms really makes honor to that bass range. As I said my opinion through experiences with those tonearms.-
rauliruegas " ...cleeds: fabricated?. That's why some of you can understand or just are
against my opinions: because I had and have experiences you don't live
yet."
Sorry, Raul. You don't know what you're talking about. First, I'm not against your opinions. You're free to believe anything you like! Frankly, your opinions are so confused that they are of little value. But when you make wild claims about watching records play using an electron microscope, you can expect readers like fleib and me to challenge you because, again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
And Raul, you definitely don't know what you're talking about when you claim "I had and have experiences you don't," because you don't know anything about me, Raul.
Dear ct0517: With all respect, a tonearm designer not necessary is an experienced audiophile. Some are but not all.
Raul, we know. As a tonearm designer yourself; you even created a thread called Are You a True Audiophile. Now myself, I can’t post there because I am a part time audiophile, and full time music lover. I don’t qualify sorry.
Every post on this forum is an opinion. Now usually, you don’t get manufacturers coming onto public chat forums and posting opinions about other products, without trying to do a little sell of their own products. There is tremendous bias. So when one of them speaks good about another product, and why - it can be interesting reading and hence my posted link. Apparently it was not interesting to you. I understand. no problem.
Raul - if you can provide us with a top view pic of your ET2 setup to start, I can tell you my opinion. The ET2 can be tweaked to sound like other tonearms. It is a tweakers delight, and this is why so many can go wrong with it. I can make it sound closer to a Fidelity Research 6 series tonearm too. Are you interested to know how to do this ?
back to the Frank Schroeder link I attached in the previous post. What I found interesting about that link is that FS made mention to a number of tonearms even the base original ET2. Now it is clear from his wording that he does not know himself, how to set up one properly, and was just going by what he was hearing. He has no reason/agenda, like you Raul, to learn how to set it up properly. It is of no benefit to him. His makes his own tonearms. The comment about mounting an ET2 on a suspended oracle has validity, and is discussed quite a bit on our ET2 thread.
Crazy Bill Its warmer here today about 2 degrees celsius and it is starting to snow. Not much snow this winter we had a brown Christmas. Chores await - maybe talk with you guys tomorrow.
Dear CT0517: """
He has no reason/agenda, like you Raul ... """""
a huge mistake from your part. Almost all those opinions comes from several many years and today only are confirmedwith better facts/experiences elsewhere.
"""
Are You a True Audiophile ?. Now myself, I can’t post there because I am a part time audiophile, and full time music lover. I don’t qualify sorry. """
wrong here too because first than all we must be a MUSIC LOVER and be in touch with live music and after that comes that audiophile word and meaning. So your contribution there is not only welcomed but very important too.
Dear cleeds: fabricated?. That's why some of you can't understand or just are against my opinions: because I had and have experiences you don't live yet. Not only that experience but ( example ) : heard in home places systems ( everykind. ) that goes from 35K to 400K+ big bucks with the same Lp tracks. These kind of experiences ( and those owners posted here on Agon about my visit to them. Not a history as you say. ) gives so many critical information that is an invaluable one and that put light to so many other " roads " to re-think ouir hobby again.
My first advise to any audiophile ( other that attend to listen live music. ) is to listen as many audio system you can listening ( if you can, sometimes we can't do it. ) to the same LP tracks that you know better that your " hands ".
There are no secrets out there only more or less experiences and the positive attitude to learn always, that's all. Keep listening!!!
**The Air Bearing affords isolation, and allows me to run a straight shot of unshielded wiring. The person that makes the loom - Take Five Audio, tells me NO pivot arm customers can use this loom for two reasons.
1) The erratic pivot arm, armtube behavior with the attached external wire. All pivot arms are like buying a new car with a low front right tire. The only way to fix it - lower pressure in the front left tire. Called antiskating.
2) Hum issues with the pivot tonearm itself being being bolted to the plinth. Multiple grounds are not a good thing.**
This doesn't make sense. Why would someone with a pivoting arm want to use a loom designed for an air bearing linear? Are you saying a pivoting arm can't use a straight run of wire? Of course you're not, you just want to get in a shot about antiskating.
Hum issues with the arm being bolted to the plinth? Most arms are bolted to an armboard, but what's it made of etc. ??
I understand you like the ET, I've heard it sound excellent, but why the inappropriate comments from the guy who makes a wiring loom?
**My first advise to any audiophile ( other that attend to listen live music. ) is to listen as many audio system you can listening ( if you can, sometimes we can't do it. ) to the same LP tracks that you know better that your " hands ".**
Still don't get it? We don't want your advice, at least I don't and I think the majority of posters here. You think you're the only one who listens to live music? You think you're alone in training your hearing? You do get the award for checking out the most equipment and knowing the least about it.
Dear cleeds: You are right that I don’t know " almost " nothing about you but your Agon posts speaks for you.
Now and only for your records: This is only part of some very interesting learni9ng experiences I had with some USA Agoner’s that I visited during my USA trips down there where the more important experience was to meet beautiful/wonderful gentlemans where all of them are very well estableshed/regarded audiophiles ( you can contact all of them just to check. ):
I meets those gentlemans and other persons in other trip. Tom is the designer and manufacturar of the well regarded Galibier TTs ( Denver. ) and I think I heard there the Schroeder tonearm other than in Austin with mab33. Vetterone lives in Idaho and owns a great audio system!.
with those gentlemans I was in other trip when I was around Philadelphia/Boston are and I meet ther with several audiophiles. Even in PHI we had a meeting with the audio association there where I meet directly too with Mr. Walker because Joe´s system has a Walker TT.
I meet those gentlemans in one of those trips in the San Diego area.
In all those meetings we had a wonderful time talking, listening, enjoying and learning of what we all like. Even we participated in several live comparison/shoot-outs between different kind of audio items and in San Diego we did it in Pryso home ( and other audiophile homes. ) and in the major audio distributor home/office in San Diego where was full of people whom attend to my visit. I hpe that pryso can put some memories of those meetings in San Diego where I was for 4 days ( in one of my trips there. ). I was too in Atlanta, LA and NY doing the same.
These gentlemans hosted me at their homes, I was tehre at least 2 days at each home with several listening hours with.
I take advantage from this post to again say to all of them ( and many more. ) thank’s for your hospitality, thank’s to gave me the opportunity to know human beens of that/your caliber. All of you very very special people.
Please name it any cartridge, TT, electronics ( tube and SS ) or speakers you know and can be sure I listen down there and many more!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. Report thisPost removed Feb 17, 2016
Dear ct0517: "" The ET2 can be tweaked to sound like other tonearms. It is a tweakers delight, and this is why so many can go wrong with it. I can make it sound closer to a Fidelity Research 6 series tonearm too. Are you interested to know how to do this ? """
appreciated but no because I have not any more. Normally when " something " is not up to my audio/music priorities I just leave behind and I don't turn my face to it. If in the future happens something extraordinary with that can tell me is a must to listen again then I will.
Btw, make to performs as the 66?, that's not for me . If I need something is a tonearm that does not performs as the 66, as a fact I still have the 64 that I use it when I have to remember how thigs won't/can't sounds.
Raul this is not correct. To ride implies to sit on and control movement like someone on a motorcycle. An example of this could be the Transfi Terminator tonearm. In forum talks with Dave G, I believe it rides on a type of sled. I remember this comment from him on my system thread because it reminded me of my ski doo racing. Maybe Dave or one of the other owners can talk to that tonearm.
The ET 2.5 is a captured bearing and the air bearing spindle is completed enclosed by air at all times inside the large stationary manifold. The differences between air bearing designs are huge even though they can look similar and for this reason one can not make general statements about them. For example. Consider Kuzma Airline which came after the ET 2.0 was introduced.
Similarities are obvious to the ET tonearm however look carefully at the red circles. The Kuzma (left) needs the air tube and wiring to keep the armtube in check as a form of damping. Would not advise using a high compliance, lower vtf tracker cartridge on it. The ET on the other hand is friction less, like a free bird, The ET tonearm does not need its wiring, and the air tube is connected on the stationary manifold casing. But that damn cartridge needs the wiring. So with the ET 2.0 and 2.5, for long time advanced owner setups, it is like trying to learn how to best walk a bird. Do you know why the ET2 thread has over 1.2 million views. Good Bird Walking Stories....
The best way to set up the ET is without the wiring **FIRST**. Then add in the wiring. Some people have come up with some really cool wiring arrangements. Factory basic setups were meant to sell tables/arms and had the wiring go through manifold down into the plinth for simplicity. This is discussed in the manual and is a sub par setup. Even Bruce does not run his own arm this way. You can run a Sonus Blue 50cms/dyne x 10-6 1 gm, or a low compliance heavy MC on both the ET 2.0, 2.5. But the ET 2.0 or 2.5 tonearm needs to be setup differently for both. Different armtubes, and in advanced setups that no professional reviewers ever got to Single, double and triple leaf springs with good knowledge of the weights placement. This knowledge can only come with time, learning and experience.
btw - I happened to see your post this morning before AudioGon removed it.
Here is what you should know as basis for an arm decision
Absolute “must have” mechanical adjustments for a SOTA arm!
1) Micrometer arm height adjustment that has index marks for VTA/SRA.
Index marks are needed to ‘fine tune”, and go back to a previous
setting, when the last setting was better.
2) Fine azimuth adjustment with index marks. Azimuth is as important as VTA/SRA, for sound quality.
3) Internally damped arm tube, and adjustable external fluid arm damping.
4) Anti-skate adjustment, including no anti-skate option.
5) Fine tracking force adjustment with index marks. For ease of
adjustment, azimuth setting should not need to be reset when tracking
force is changed.
6) Adjustable head shell cartridge position (arm pivot-to-spindle
distance,and stylus contact angle) for desired horizontal alignment.
Straight non-pivot arms also need proper cartridge alignment (if off,
they will be off through out the entire record). They also may have
equal left-right channel sidewall force issues as the arm moves across
the record, depending on the type of arm movement mechanism, IMO.
Tuning the arm by ear is “subjective”! Set for the listener’s sonic taste, as to what playback sounds best!
Electronic amplification, and the cartridge, must be “settled in”
(warmed up) before adjustments are made. Play a few Lps before “fine
tuning” any adjustments. Keep the stylus clean.
Incremental, “very fine” adjustments, over long term listening, with many Lps is necessary.
The optimum setting is always within a very small “window”.
Certain settings affect, other settings, that may need to be re-adjusted.
Listen for sonic changes as you make incremental adjustments, back and forth, as “clues” for the best setting.
Optimal setting are not for one record, but for the “mean” of all your Lps IMO.
Stylus mounting position may be slightly off (even on the most expensive cartridge), and this needs to be taken into account.
Adjustment for each Lp is “madness’, time consuming, and interrupts the
enjoyment of repeated playing during long listening sessions IMO.
When all adjustments are complete 80% of your Lps will sound at their
best, the remainder very good IMO. I throw away bad recordings, why
waste time listening to crap?
Not every record is well recorded, or will sound great, even with the arm properly set up.
Cartridge suspension break-in and settling over time, and stylus wear, requires arm re-adjustment.
Resistor loading, arm cables, and step-up transformer, gain and
impedance (if used), are also big factors in getting best sonics.
Some VPI arms, Graham, and most all TriPlanar arms meet these requirements.
SME arms and many other arms do not, and are not SOTA IMO.
Good job, Don. You, at least, give a basis for how to set up the arm/cartridge. Some of that information can only be gathered by someone who has actually done a good job at the set up. Earlier, someone quoted that bass below 100hz was mono. I had always thought or read it was lower(60 or 40hz?)
Dear ct/chris: I know what you mean. I already experienced the Kuzma too and things for me does not changes yet.
I be staying with pivoting tonearms, for me that mechanical grounding makes a difference in the more important frequency range in a home audio system: bass range. In the other side seems to me that we need some kind of friction at the tonearm bearing to" fight " in better way against all the LP imperfections: excentricity, waves and the like. Just an opinion.
Air bearing TT are not better on that regards but here there are other variables.
Anyway, you was clear on the subject and I think that for me is enough about tangential tonearms, but that's only me.
mmakshak Earlier, someone quoted that bass below 100hz was mono. I had always thought or read it was lower(60 or 40hz?)
mmakshak That was a linked quote from Frank Schroeder. I took it to mean as a guideline. In talking with engineers this number will vary depending on the situation.
Don_c55 imo - theory will only take you so far in this vinyl hobby. For me personally I have heard "lesser theory" designs outperform "better in theory" designs. Its comes down to personal knowledge and setup. Better designs have more potential.
i.e. If we start with your first theory point.
1) Micrometer arm height adjustment that has index marks for VTA/SRA. Index marks are needed to ‘fine tune”, and go back to a previous setting, when the last setting was better.
The last setting will always be better, if it was the one done with the cartridge alignment protractor. :^) We have already discussed here how all tonearms except one, will throw out the alignment with VTA/SRA changes.When making VTA/SRA changes you should reset alignment.
Rauliruegas In the other side seems to me that we need some kind of friction at the tonearm bearing to" fight " in better way against all the LP imperfections: excentricity, waves and the like. Just an opinion.
Raul fwiw - there is a damping fluid trough which is used with a paddle. Regarding your comment on friction - one can adjust the arm so that there is some friction ....if that is what you want :^) During the arm setup you just offset the alignment a touch along the straight line. The limitation with the arm is if some one likes to play bad ass records. Severely eccentric records with runouts of greater than 1/8 inch. Nobody here is like that, right ? Even Bruce recommends in the manual to use a low mass pivoted arm if you like to play records like this.
Just now I read Raul’s invitation to add memories of his visit to San Diego. I don’t have any special qualifications for that other than possibly being the only one from that group who still participates on Audiogon.
We are fortunate here that we have an active club, the San Diego Music and Audio Guild. The MAG has provided a way to meet many other local hobbyists and with that, many solid friendships have been formed. It was one of those members who was instrumental in inviting Raul to visit us during a US tour, and to call together a smaller group of individuals to meet with him. As I recall there was a core group of about six of us.
Over the days of his visit we met at one another’s homes so had great exposure to a few very different systems and the opportunity to discuss our impressions of them. They varied from HE speakers driven by SET amps to multi-way floor standers driven by hundreds of watts. Both analog and digital sources were utilized. Also Raul brought along his newly developed preamp which we had the chance to audition in some of those systems in direct comparison with the owner’s preamp. My system was one of those, although it is completely different today.
My major point though are my impressions of Raul. As I’ve posted previously I found him to be a very considerate, knowledgeable, and polite gentleman. He was able to contribute many insightful comments on the various systems, always doing so in a constructive way. So I consider it unfortunate that so many harsh words have passed here in response to some of his posts.
Just the same, I believe I can understand some of this criticism. Many of Raul’s comments come off as condescending. I didn’t find that in our face to face discussions but some of his writing appears that way. So why is that? Again I’m not an expert, but I do have some suggestions. First, English is not his native language and I’ve read multiple times where his word choice or expressions may not convey what I think he may intend. Second, you need to understand his degree of enthusiasm and commitment to musical reproduction and enjoyment. I think that leads to over-long replies and posts. He easily gets carried away when a simpler statement or description might serve better. Third, I suspect he spends so much time with those lengthly posts that he does not take time to review and edit them before submitting. Otherwise he might shorten or clear up points which may be misconstrued. And fourth, it could be a matter of style. I found Raul to be open to learning, sharing, and not condescending, but I can see where some of his knowledge and enthusiasm to share that comes off in ways that many ’Goners find offensive.
ct0517...*G* Due to your 'post experience' (1.5K+), I'll bow to your observation that some other forum will wreak AG Armageddon before this one will. So I'll back your bet, based on that... ;)
I'll be not so secretly pleased at least that the tangential/air bearing troops have entered this fray with their 'arms drawn. Even here in the 'cheap seats' it's become as entertaining as a good Middle Ages donnybrook, without all the mess those involved....
Popcorn, anyone? *snicker*
(As the 'Devil's Advocate' that may have triggered the 'counterattack', Do Not show up at my door with torches and pitchforks. I have a hose and dogs. Do Not fashion your tonearms into spears or arrows either. I have Lexan. I may just laugh at you and advise you to seek therapy. I cannot save you. I can't save myself. {Stabbing Westward, 'Save Yourself'})
Asvjerry - for me it is too early for popcorn. This is a morning thing mostly. It helps to take my mind off of crumbling investments. So freshly ground coffee beans for me. Any opinion on where Oil is headed ?
Crazy time of year -mid Feb - being stuck inside with winter. One risks falling back into audiophile mode. I am tempted to go visit Raul in sunny Mexico (if he will have me). He seems to be quite the party-er according to Pryso. For fun I could pack up my tonearm, if he will clear a space for it on one of his TT's. But I fear the tonearm's life support system will not survive the trip. :^(
As I am sure you know Asvjerry, the forums are like a poker game of opinions. The trump card is real experience. But some like to play this game here with their cards not showing (face down). How is one to share info and learn if your cards aren't showing? Good for you Asvjerry for showing a virtual system.
@ the OP CrazyBill, I will repeat what I said at the start - keep what you have and enjoy the music. I am down to a couple pivot arms now. I am not a tonearm collector, and I was in a situation that I had to sell one; either the DV505 or the FR64s. The FR64s was easier to sell, and my son thought the DV505 looked really cool. So I kept the DV505. I also learned while trying to sell the DV505 for a short period, that some audiophiles are intimidated by that thing.
I heard a rumor the Fuser thread suffered its first casualty. A burned out filament. And just when I was getting ready to drop one of those shiny new babies into my DAC.
Dear pryso: Thank's for your post. Yes, I have dificult to explain exactly what I'm thinking and with that kind of dificult there are a misunderstood in what I really mean it.
In the other side, I know that my life audio experiences are diferent from other people and mainly because I'm " hyperactive " in the quest of better quality system performance. Post as cleeds one that I posted a hystory/a chine tale or a lier is normal way to think in other people because they don't know me.
Maybe many agoner's already had not only the kind of experiences I posted of my USA trips but even more wide than that but I had and have " thousands " of especial learning experiences here in México too through at least 6 of the principal audio distributors that are very close friens. Through them I experienced " hundreds " of audio equipment directly in my home: FM Acoustics, Audio Note Kondo, VPI, Levinson, Revel, JL Audio, Air Tight, Krell, Pass, Audio research, Wilson, JM Labs, Cello, Sonus Faber, Esoteric, Dsc, Gryphon, Apogue, Sound Labs, Sota, etc, etc, more and more.
My way of " audio play " with out no single rules, not to be sticky to anything and " always " thinking in non-ortodox/out of the box way always gave me invaluable learning rewards. I always am asking me: why if I do this or that? and I try it and many times those experiences were lessons of what not do and why. Some things that I learned I learnen by accident, because I made mistakes and through it I learned.
To make take action with changes in my system I trust is no one but me. I try everything, many of what people post through the net to understand what they mean or if really is right or not.
Other variable that helps a lot in that here in México we don't have extreme excess of money to spend in hobbies, so we have to use a lot of " imagination " to obtain the best quality performance of what we have with the minimum investment.
Again thank's and as you said: go a head with tonearms.
ct...Oil? South. For the time being, anyway. The low prices @ the pump simply forestalls our being weaned from the stuff before it becomes rare. HO: It'll attain that just about the time the climate really gets everyone's attention, which is when it'll be too late to respond in our species' typically late and lame fashion. But at that point you and I should be 'comfortably numb'...i.e., Dead...
"A poker game..." *L* Sometimes acts like a slamdance, opinions clashing like broadswords, ergo my Middle Ages ref. As my ears have aged and don't respond to the extremes on nuance anymore, I've tempered my drive to new/newer/newest and resorted to what intrigues or amuses me. My 'system' has become less 'hi-end', more 'test bed', constrained by budget.
I've been fortunate to have been exposed to things beyond my grasp, to at least experience and learn from that exposure. I have my own opinions, some not so humble about it all. I only 'air' them when either asked or at random 'knee-jerk' moments when the muse ice picks a tender spot...*S*
Mexico? Sounds good to moi'. GTF outta town, show up @ t'door. ;) Worse that could happen is to sleep in the car...but you'd be warm. *G*
Leave the tone arm(s) @ home...unless you transport them in one of those alum cases with the foam inserts, like some exotic weaponry. Which, considering the posts about and above us, gets kinda close...*smirk*
Dear don_c55: """ what you should know as basis for an arm decision.."""
Seems to me that your 6 premises to choose a tonearm are only your desire and that you want an user friendly tonearm, good.
I don’t see there that the tonearm has to be a good match for the cartridge or cartridges that own the customer that IMHO is critical for a tonearm choice.
What about those tonearms that are very well damped with out external oil damping? are they out to choice it? or the ones that has not fine tracking force with index mark, are out?
There are very good tonearms that are not so user friendly as you want but that are very good performers with wide good match for diferent cartridges, that has very good design and where that design were excecuted with really high quality.
Where do you leave the Kuzma 4P or the Reed P3? are automatic desqualified because are not 100% user friendly?
I can understand your post but I disagree with like chris ( btw, you can be always my guest, will be a pleasure to meet you here. ).
Index marks are IMO a must have aid. It is possible, but harder, to land on the "tuned in sweet spot" without them. These sweet spots are very small, and hard to find. You can pass them by, if you are not careful, and not even know it.
A "good match" brings into the discussion "Magic" arms.
Don_c55, I tend to agree with your list of necessary features and I realize you said SOTA. I believe the OP referred to arms in the $6K and less range, and while all these features could possibly be incorporated in a $6K arm, sometimes the elimination of a feature is an engineering decision.
For me, VTA OTF is a necessary feature and I would give up calibrated azimuth adjustment to have it. Azimuth is set-and-forget adjustment, and while a calibrated azimuth might be convenient for cart swapping, I think it's more likely to compromise performance.
Even though this thread includes a lengthy travel log and fanciful stories, I enjoy reading personal opinions and comparisons and wish there to be more of that. I think these opinions are equally valid as a prof. review, maybe more so.
In the spirit of time spent, already compromised, I ask everyone (not you Don), can't we move on?
Don_c55 Ct0517 When you say lesser arms can sound better, were the both arms you heard set up properly?And how did you know that was in fact true?
Don_c55
I will give you a couple examples of what I meant. Firstly - Setups are temporary. An audiophile is not able to resist change. Ones setup is as good as the last change. Its one thing to discuss what one would like to see in a tonearm, and in this thread Crazy Bill asked for input. In the real world we know one needs to give consideration to the sum of the parts.Each part plays a separate role and contributes to the the sum of the whole. For vinyl play - type of building floor suspended or not (this is a huge factor); Shelf design being used, table design (suspended or not), Tonearm, Cartridge, Wiring, Phono Stage and the Elephant in the room - the Record. At a high level.
Example One A good entry level table set up well with a basic cartridge, outperforms a more expensive table with VPI tonearm and more expensive cartridge. The owner is puzzled. Reading the tonearm manual he compensates with extra twists in the uni pivots wiring, but this makes the situation worse. He does not realize that his turntable has gone a little wonky - it is out of level. No amount of proper set up on that tonearm will fix this situation.
Another example. A 7/10 setup on a good pivot arm will produce decent results, and will out perform a 7/10 setup on a good air bearing linear tracker. You have a small amount of leeway with an airbearing linear arm. Go outside of that and it will sound like crap. IME , a 9/10 setup on an air bearing linear tracker versus 9/10 on a pivot arm is another story.
Ct0517 - Why would someone with a pivoting arm want to use a loom designed for an air bearing linear? Are you saying a pivoting arm can't use a straight run of wire? Of course you're not, you just want to get in a shot about antiskating.
I owed you this response Fleib from an earlier post. Lets break it down.
Why would someone with a pivoting arm want to use a loom designed for an air bearing linear?
Its not designed for an air bearing linear tonearm. Its just a straight shot of wire (your choice of brand) with your choice of connectors. Unless you are going to solder the ends into the phono stage. If using the plugs, a Faraday cage and grounding on the plug side.
The setup in the bottom left replaces all of the tonearms own internal wiring along with what is seen to the right. The performance bump on my tonearm was incredible once one deals with the interference.
Are you saying a pivoting arm can't use a straight run of wire?
I am talking Audiophile real life here, after the original manufacturers tonearm has been brought home. Nobody I know would replace the inside original wire in the armtube of an expensive pivot arm. This is difficult to do and you lose resale value. On a gimbal tonearm; this external wire puts an additional force on the pivot arm tube as the wire is no longer exiting at the pivot. Not good.
Fleib - I showed you my loom. How about showing me yours....
Griffithds ct0517 - You could neither handle the air nor the water in Mexico City! But you might see the sun through the red haze in the air.
:^) Griffithds Sounds like my the tonearm will have just as much difficulty as me. Your comments made me think of an automobile owners manual, and the section that discusses the oil change interval for extreme operating conditions. Mexico sounds like extreme operating conditions, and a challenge, for a captured air bearing. Continued moisture/humidity and/or particles in the air cause capillaries in the air bearing manifold to clog up. First it starts performing poorly, and eventually could lock up. There is a designed pressure difference, between what is coming into the manifold, and the PSI that is maintained on the air bearing spindle. The pressure difference needs to be maintained. To do this the capillaries need to stay clean. Not a problem in a normal controlled environment.
Holy Moly I am starting to sound like an engineer now....but I am just a music lover. Try to say capillaries 3 times.
Griffithds - Btw - Do I remember reading on this forum at some point that you are an aircraft engineer ?
Asvjerry - yes - the tonearm will be left at home if I ever visited Raul. My comment in the last post about the tonearm's life support system not surviving the trip - was referring to the pump. Its a bulky thing with wheels.
Dear Ct0517, First, there is a thriving DIYer population that would have/does have no problem re-wiring vintage pivoted tonearms to suit whatever is one's preference for type, quality, and length of wire. There are even a few businesses that do it for the timid. Second, if one is purchasing a new pivoted tonearm, there are several manufacturers, including, to name only three, Reed, Triplanar, and I am fairly sure Durand, who will supply said tonearm with just about any internal wiring one's heart could desire (copper, silver, cryo, elfin, etc) and said wire can be ordered up to go all the way from the headshell to the phono stage input jacks. Both my Reed 2A and my Triplanar are thus configured, based on my philosophy that the best connector is no connector.
Actually, Herb Papier, the original designer and builder of the Triplanar, is to be credited for being a very early adaptor of the "straight shot" wiring scheme, 15-20 years ago. I grant you that all the named brands of tonearm are expensive and may be beyond the reach of many in terms of cost, but then there is in fact the DIY route or buying "second hand" on Audiogon, etc.
This is no criticism of your ET tonearm, and I think you made a good choice to avoid connectors in the signal path when possible. If I were going to a tangential tonearm, I would also strongly consider the Trans-Fi. But I don't like air pumps.
Yes my 30+ years of employment was in the field you have mentioned, but I fail to remember where you dug this information up from? I guess I will just have to blame that lack of recall on 'old age'! (grin) One thing I also failed to mention. Mexico City also had one of the 'dirtiest' electrical grids on the planet (population 21 million), with constant failures/breakdowns. Not my idea of what would contribute to a happy listening sessions! I can only assume that Raul must use some kind of 'power regulation' in his system. If not. ????? Regards,
Dear don_c55: What in my opinion is a must to have from any tonearm is an user friendly ACCURATE cartridge/tonearm JIG for that set up.
It's ridiculous ( for say the least ) that almost any one of us own not one but several after market jigs/protractors because the one that comes with the tonearm is not ACCURATE or not user friendly.
IMHO, this is the major fault of almost all tonearm manufacturers. If these manufacturers make a good Jig/protractor then no one of us could want any after market device. That JIG is not " rocket science ".
That tonearm/cartridge JIG is critical and an obligation by the tonearm manufacturers.
That's the " perfect " audio world where we live!.
and we plod on..... Most manufactures do provide a protractor. Best reg. protractors are provided by arm manufacturers. What do you want, a Feikert? Add that to the cost of your arm and complain about that.
Ct0517, I found other mfg. comments (Re. 507) you posted, interesting. Thanks. Lewm answered the bit about being able to use a straight run of wire in a pivoting arm. The rest of the quote from the loom maker is bizarre. It's the arm with exposed unshielded wire which is susceptible to RF and a Faraday cage won't help as long as the wires are exposed.
ViV Rigid Float anyone? Interesting concept there, trading off alignment error for zero offset. This isn't a new concept. Yamaha had a YSA-2 upgrade for the GT2000, and the RS Labs which also had vertical cantilever offset compensation.
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