TONEARM DAMPING : DAMPED OR NOT ? ? USELESS ? ? WELCOMED ? ?

Re the original question. Simple correct answer. Tonearm should not vibrate or flex. If it's not "perfect" - damping is appropriate. Of course there are many 'cabalistic' factors  :)  (Made you go for the dictionary :)  Naturally this thread 'could' go on forever :)  We've got endless 'retired' guys, plus bored sales 'people' or should that be 'persons?' with nothing better to do--  gotta love this 'forum' ...........

@lewm  : 55 554390 0518, please say me Hi down there. Could you?  Appreciated.

R.

Following a very enjoyable day visiting the Designer of the Tonearm referred to in the earlier Post and once more discussing the subject of a Trough > Paddle > Damping Fluid. 

There is no change in the thought about damping troughs being used.

The Wow and Flutter that can be detected during a LP's replay is to be witnessed as a substantial improvement through improving Speed Control, as a result of optimising certain mechanical interfaces both mechanical and geometrical.

Optimisation is achievable through removing a common cause of eccentric rotation, being the non-true rotation of the axis of the Platter Bearings Spindle.

Keeping on top of a LP's eccentricity is more difficult as the cause is typically the off set of the Groove to the LP's Hole / Spindle Centre, not the usually misunderstood dimension incorrectly suspected as being the LP's Hole / Spindle Centre to the LP's perimeter. If the hole centre perimeter dimension was the only concern there would be tools available to substantially improve on the condition.

Optimisation can be taken further when addressing the interface created between the Styli and Groove, which is the next to be considered.

There are set up Geometries where the selection of the null points are capable of producing differing forces which will be exerted within the Groove, at certain positions during the replay, these are a cause of friction and drag, each capable of impacting on Wow and Flutter.

There are things that can be addressed within the Cartridge, especially the accuracy of the alignment of the Styli on the Cantilever, the alignment of the Cantilever to the Coils and the Azimuth when the Styli is within the Groove.  

The cleanliness of the Vinyl and Quality of the finished polish to the Styli will also assist with overcoming the presence of Wow and Flutter

When the mechanical and geometrical interface is addressed, the use of a dedicated Speed Controller will assist with a improved control over the electronics influence on the speed. 

These critical conditions when not optimised, are able to influence detrimentally on a replay. Their presence when non-optimised are not going to be resolved by the use of a Paddle in oil, and it is most unlikely the use of a Paddle and Oil, be it a Silicone, Spirit Mineral or a Blend of either, is going to be an adequate method for removing the 'entirety' of the impact of energies being created as a result of the presence of any of the above conditions not being optimal.

Even if the conditions are at their optimal, the Trough, Oil, Paddle is not going to offer much as a means to remove what remains as a unwanted energy transfer. 

Energies being generated, resulting with a proportion of unwanted produced energy, able to be transferred through a Tonearm, will have an amount of produced energy, able to be a bounce back energy, even with a Trough in place, where the result will be unwanted energy being able to return to source, ultimately to encounter and be an influence on the the Styli. 

'could be' ?, 'might be' ?

" You need facts or to make your own measures "

Dear @audiomark1234  : Things are that for several years I owned the first the 4 and latter on the DP-6 that's almost an unipivot design ( has 2 bearing points. ) and with not good microscopic stability for the stylus tip ridding.

That's why came or comes with silicon oil damping for the horizontal plane and independent for the vertical movements and in this we can choose the " quantity " of damping we need or not but this fact depends more that what the designer says but  the cartridges we own and our sound reproduction preferences.

With out vertical damping we coulkd think is more open/cryztaline the sound but that could be the added non damped distortion levels.

R.

The late Hans Henrik ( Moerch) once told me the DP6 I have would sound better if I could avoid the optional damping fluid.

Even though I say it is cutting edge Technology, 3D Printing as a concept able to produce a form is as old as CD.

Powdered Metal and other Particulate being used to produce a non homogenous form, with approx' 25% air space by Volume, is much older as a concept and working design, probably 100 years.

As a Layman description, I am not the man behind the Science.

These Forms used as a Binderless construction for a Wand will make transferral of energy that little more broken as the air spaces are now a place for dissipation of the transfer, resulting in diminished energy overall within the structure.    

Methods produced for Oil Damping on a Tonearm is nothing new to myself as something to be experienced.

It has been experienced as a Arc Trough and DIY Produced Oversized Trough with both a Vertical and Horizontal orientated Paddle produced to assess the impact a Paddle resistance can have.

It has been witnessed as a A/B comparison with a Identical Tonearm Cart’ with different Viscosities of Oil available for the Trough, in both Spirit Mineral Oil and Silicone Oil, as well as a Blend of these Oil Types.

This was done at a time when a alternative metal was under investigation for a Arm Tube, and not necessarily a homogenous metal.

I have no recollection of anything very attractive and indelible being perceived as having occurred, as a result of experiencing a trough in use. I do recall a few Oil Types were used.

I only had one follow up discussion on this methodology, which to me indicates not too much had a occurred to want to learn more about.

The follow up conversation made it known the trough was inspected under very high magnification and there was no evidence able to be detected on the oil surface, that a energy was being transferred though the paddle to the trough oil fill.

The discussions had that usually put an emphasis on where improvement was really to be found, was when the discussions centred around modifications undertaken within the bearing housing, for how they were an influence on what was easily recognised for being an impressive betterment than a earlier version.

The idea of a non homogenous Tonearm Metal produced from a Binderless 3D Printing to produce a Form with a particular spacing between between bonded particle is seemingly the real advancement to be discovered.

Technology today and the software that can control jet nozzles, places the Magnesium Powder as the material that has been most discussed with the Tonearm Designer, the metal that has much appeal for how it can control energy transfer as a non homogenous material, with Titanium Powder not too far behind.

I am visiting the designer builder of the Tonearm this weekend and will once more attempt to get them to take a proper look at Mycelium as a 3D Printed form for a Arm Tube.

This is as cutting edge technology as I believe I may venture into, in my later years involved with a interest in Audio and what the equipment can produce. 

@rauliruegas , 20 pounds. I need to lose 20 pounds. 

Dear @mijostyn  : My audio world is truly small and inside it I have estrict and specific critical issues and targets to make the MUSIC really an enjoyment the near I can to the live event MUSIC experience. I'm not complicated.

Things are that for me what we can't avoid and always is there is all what I posted in mt last 6-7 post that is happening at the stylus/cantilever ridding and been here where the MUSIC source starts we all should be to care about to try achieve that real MUSIC enjoyment  with the any kind of developed distortions at minimum. This is my target here and now. Which yours?.

R.

@rauliruegas I'm sure viscosity is a factor if you have that problem, another factor to drive yourself crazy about.

I really like my little world. I can hide from the rest of humanity with a few selected exceptions. I hate to say this Raul, but you have to assume at this point that until human's can control their primitive instincts we are better off staying away from them. Not that there are not good people out there, there are , but their silence is deafening. 

@mijostyn : You need to go out for a few minutes from your little world.

Btw, the key in this cartridge main issue is the choice and quantity of silicon viscosity level we are using it.

R.

@rauliruegas I don't have time to read 250 pages. I've got to finish my wife's vanity. Look, what's happening down there is rather simple. There is a diamond stylus tracing  groove at something like 60,000 psi. while the cartridge and everything else it is attached to including Mexico must remain absolutely, perfectly, unassailably stationary other than the slow movement of the arm traveling to the end of the record. There can be no vibration of any kind other than the moving assembly of the cartridge (diamond, cantilever, coils or magnet) 

Now, someone must have a problem somewhere along the line as they want to apply damping. Damping is a method for controlling vibration. It serves no other purpose. Applied to a tonearm it's job is to stop the tonearm from moving or vibrating, if you will, and if there is a vibration that is not supposed to be there, the damping might diminish it some. If the cartridge is vibrating, then so isn't the tonearm. The opposite is also true or there is another vibration and you are in serious trouble. You might as well hang it all up and get a Corona.

Dear @mijostyn  : With all respect to you what in " hell " you did not undersand from my last post that are not my words but the gentlemans/researcher Crandfield Institute where them belongs to the Departament of Design of Machine systems.

Townshend was not one of those researchers he was the investment gentleman that decided to run out with what those gentlemans discover and proved.

I said all that because you insist: " there are tonearm cartridge combinations that will benefit from damping.........there is more to resonance that just frequency....there is also sensitivity, amplitud and duration ."

Btw, in those white papers all those about amplitude and the like comes with not wide explanation but measurements about.

Anyway , my main issue is not about the tonearm/cartridge resonance but the characteristics that surround the cartrdge riding the groover. This is what is happening down there and what is eveloping by the cartridge it self ( forgeret about the tonearm even if is a " perfect " tonearm and good mated to the cartridge. ).

Please think in the cartridge ridding grooves in isolation that it's something that those researchers concluded along other conclusions:

I have several years posting about that analog jitter/mistracking way before I started this thread or that P.Lenderman video and way before I knew about the white papers I mentioned here.

Those white papers are around 250 pages, it’s truly bigger to read it but yesterday for the first time I read there:

" this is atributed to cartridge vibration at high frequency upseting the subtle phase effects...."

" The name clamp or stabilizer seems more appropiate than damper, as the device only damps over a very narrow frequency range: 8hz-15hz but clamps from 20hz to 50khz. It is the clamping which gives the improvements:

a) bass coloration reduced

b) mid band "openess" improves

c)distortions at all frequencies is reduced

d)stereo imagery improved

e) tracking problems " eliminated " and

f) feedback greatly reduced. "

Clamp down there is the name of the game and the silicon is what it does " clamps " the cartridge to the groove surface in a % that in many ways stop that the cartridge ridding follows developing higher distortions. NO it does not really clamps it's only a little help that even a deaf audiophile can listen if it's using the rigth silicon viscosity and the good news in this clamp is that we achieve only benefits and nothing " wrong " that you can detect and only testing you can attest about in positive or negative way. I repeat: you have to test it with several cartridges in your system.

I already posted that I builded trays for the silicon dedicated in specific to around 8 different arms where I tested the same cartridges using the same LP tracks and with different silicon viscocities.

I know what I'm talking about and you DON'T only theory and good imagination/desires and the like. You need facts or to make your own measures with and with out the silicon tray in you tonearm ( I know that you think that your tonearm does not needs that damping but it's not for the tonearm but for the cartridge ridding. )

R.

https://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like

@rauliruegas I should be more specific and lass abrupt. There are some tonearm cartridge combinations that will benefit from damping.

There is more to resonance than just the frequency at which it occurs, there is also sensitivity, amplitude and duration. I run cartridges below 8 Hz all the time. The Lyra Atlas that I am listening to right now has a resonance frequency of 5 Hz. It is also on a very well isolated turntable and a great arm. I feel the bass better this way. All tonearms have a certain degree of damping from multiple sources such the flexibility of the tonearm wires, bearing friction, air resistance and the damping designed into the cantilever's suspension. The Schroder CB adds magnetic damping. However, if I put the Atlas/CB combination on a fixed base turntable the sensitivity of the system will decrease and the result might be feedback. 

Heavier arms with cartridges of medium to high compliance on fixed base turntables will do better with damping because damping decreases sensitivity, amplitude and duration at low frequencies just like a car's shock absorbers. 

My point is if one is careful about arm, turntable and cartridge choices additional damping should not be required and indeed can cause problems. 

The stylus tracking the groove has been compared to dragging a rock through a trench. This is not accurate. It is dragging a rock, topped by a dump truck, through a trench. In scale that is about the right "VTF'! The pressure in PSI is insanely high. Styluses do not bounce around all over the place unless the resonance frequency is way too high or the suspension is way too stiff. This is the problem with strain gauge cartridges. Their suspension is inherently stiff and they can not handle high groove velocities. It takes an extremely high groove velociity to get a good arm cartridge combination to leave the groove on the order of 90 to 100 um at 315 Hz.

@dogberry : Yes, could be that way.

I have several years posting about that analog jitter/mistracking way before I started this thread or that P.Lenderman video and way before I knew about the white papers I mentioned here.

Those white papers are around 250 pages, it’s truly bigger to read it but yesterday for the first time I read there:

" this is atributed to cartridge vibration at high frequency upseting the subtle phase effects...."

" The name clamp or stabilizer seems more appropiate than damper, as the device only damps over a very narrow frequency range: 8hz-15hz but clamps from 20hz to 50khz. It is the clamping which gives the improvements:

a) bass coloration reduced

b) mid band "openess" improves

c)distortions at all frequencies is reduced

d)stereo imagery improved

e) tracking problems " eliminated " and

f) feedback greatly reduced. "

Maybe could be a good test with higher viscosity than 60K, at least this is my first hand experiences with different tonearms where I builded its dedicated trays.

R.

It took two albums this morning for me to change my mind and get up and swap the London Reference and the BM LP-S, moving the former on to the V and the latter on to the IV. Set the VTF, adjusted the overhang, set the anti-skate and rechecked the VTF. Refilled the damping trough with the last of my SME silicon, rechecked the level of the tables and off I went. Naturally everything sounds wonderful, as it always does after such exertions. I’m not sure it sounds different though! It had to be done at some stage, anyway, so no harm done. Maybe prolonged listening will make it all clear.

Dear @dogberry  : Of course that you need to hear it.

I shared those measures only for we can see that damped vs undamped valuations.

They used 34 different cartridges as the Decca London Gold, Ortofon MC 30, Denon DL103D, Empire 2000, Goldring 900, Nakamichi MC 1000 ( I owned this and was a great performer. ), Shure V15, Sonus Silver and many more with different compliace/weigth, characteristics.

@mijostyn  I know that this gentleman has very good experience levels and very god knowledge levels and  I think that to post something that enhamce the subject dialogue he has to " open " a little his way of thinking.

R.

Thanks, Raul. I need to hear those differences rather than see them on paper to know if they are significant. And SME silicon is 60cS rather than 10, which I assume is a significant difference. I shall have to experiment some more, but it should wait until I finally move cartridges around on the tonearms so that they are in their final places (I'm being influenced by the idea, still, that the Decca will benefit the most from damping, if any of them do.)

Dear @mijostyn ​@dogberry  and friends : Here what the gentlemans at Cranfield Institute of Technology found out about damping that Townshend decide to took and manufacture with a lot of success.

Same measures with and with out damping and they used a low viscosity at 10K when SME V use 60K and I already tested 100K, 300K and 600 in different ways. Mijos please do not makes a critic as is usual in you and try to enhance the dialogue with real solutions on this cartridge ridding subject that is what we all need. Critic is totally easy and any one can do it but real solutions that's a different history:

Raúl (canva.com)

R.

@mijostyn  : Cranfield Institute of Technology is whre everything were do it where Townshend was the manufacturer who was interested to go a head with.

His take was about the tonearm and overall developed " distortions " in TTs but through the time I learned about and my take is a little different and relationed to the cartridge groove ridding it self.

From the point of view of cartridge/tonearm perfect resonance frequency level you are rigth but thast is not my take.

Even that we can be out of that ideal resonance frequency level things happened and happens that goes against what we all learned about. The Ortofon MC 2000 real time measures under its review confirm that because its tonearm/resonance frequency was below 5hz and the reviewer can't detect any trouble with and was not any reviewer but an engineer/audiophile/music lover and proffesional reviewer.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " I assure you, none of my current cartridges mistrack any record I have played, "

All your today and past cartridges has that analog jitter and you can’t avoid it. That you just don’s accept it is only your attitude or " ignorance " because evidence are there.

Shure, Stanton, Pickering and the like knew about and thta’s why its cartridge stabilizers to help a little on that regards.

If you are happy with that analog jitter in your system it’s fine with me but that you post after post tell that you don’t have that problem is just something " stupid for say the least: the day is nigth as not the other way around.

Btw, what you don’t understand yet is that that specific regards has nothing to do with which tonearm which kind of tonearm are you using and if it’s good matched or not: THE ISSUE BELONGS TO THE CARTRIDGE/GROOVE /FRICTON riding.

Till you understand that you will stay in trouble.

"  You do not want to know what I think about Townsend. "

What you think about has no importance what has importance is that you can prove it that what Townshend and his surrouded external enginners measures and all the science behind them tha are facts. You have not facts and you know that I respect you but what you are posting in this specific regards is only you ignorance levels about because you don't belive that could happens then you never tested.

Now you are very shilled working with wooooood and mayvbe metal too and own all the necessary tools to make a tray and test in your system.

Your posts does not help you till you experience as first hand in your system. This is not about our believes, this is about reality and again it's not a tonearm issue.

R.

@rauliruegas, @dogberry AB testing damping methods is easy. You make a 24/192 recording of each condition you want to compare then have a friend do the switching so you are blinded. Digital recordings at that bit rate and frequency are invisible. Pure Vinyl, a program by Channel D is an excellent vinyl recording program and once set up it is a breeze to use. Many reviewers use it. 

@rauliruegas If you have mistracking problems with the tonearms you are using you need to try different arms or maybe try increasing the VTF. You do not want to know what I think about Townsend. I assure you that I am VERY sensitive to that type of distortion and I am well experienced with it having had bad cartridge tonearm combinations in the past. Maybe you have owned to many Decca cartridges? I assure you, none of my current cartridges mistrack any record I have played, mounted in the Schroder CB as long as the stylus is pointed in the right direction. If you want to mess up your life with silicon goo mixed with dust and flies, have fun. 

The solution for dust is proper record management, a dust cover and control over static. If you clean your records stay away from methods that air or fan dry records. However, perfect control over dust in the typical home environment is impossible. I still use a conductive sweep arm during play and clean the turntable at least once a month. 

Understood. Thanks.

@dogberry  : What I try to say is that we need that to amke comparisons with and with   out silicon damping we need that the in the tonearm tray came facilities to do it because if each time you need to remove the silicon oil to test with out and have to fill each time you need to test with silicon damping then maybe not a good idea because the test with and with out we need to do it " almost " in the fly ( not in the fly really ) very fast in the same track.

I can't remember how came in the SME but in my today tonearms and in the MS MAX you can do that and is easy to listen with and with out.

R.

it's not easy to fall in count what to look for

Can you rephrase that bit, please? I don't understand what you mean.

Dear @dogberry  : Yes, I owned the V and IV  and its add-on tray. 

No, the intrinsical character do not changes but improves. Now I think that could be more easy for any one of us to detect that analog jitter not with LP tracks recorded at high velocities but more easy in a " normal " recordings. 

For years I developed my overall test proccess where I usem almost everykind of LP tracks and always the same.

As I told you, it's not easy to fall in count what to look for, we need patience and no we don't need " golden ears " to do it.

R.

Raul, you may be right, and it is hardly for me to argue. But if my one, poor, remaining ear cannot hear the difference, what then?

I shall note that SME do not include any damping trough on most of their tonearms: it is standard only on the V (but is offered as an add-on for some of their other models). I have a good deal of respect for Alastair Robertson-Aikman's engineering decisions.

Might it be that you are referring to some more esoteric effects of damping rather than obvious mistracking?—when I got into Decca cartridges it was received wisdom that they would probably mistrack in an obvious way without a damped tonearm. My experience has been otherwise, but I don't have any of the classic Decca cartridges before John Wright modified them into something more refined and capable. And if we are to consider more subtle things than obvious mistracking, what of the supposed loss of dynamics that goes along with use of the damping trough? It is the (I'd say unrivalled) dynamics of Decca cartridges that makes us love them, and to dampen them down might remove their character.

Dear @dogberry : The issue is that it’s not an easy task to detect the analog jitter/natural mistracking, you can see that here mijostyn just has no answer or solution or as you think that it’s not need it.

All cartridges in all tonearm need it and to detect the " phenomenon " we need a self very good test proccess especially with LP tracks recorded at high velocities.

Now that I know what to look for I have not many trouble to detect it but first we need to make several tests til we can be " there ".

Before I started this thread I was over 0ne year making almost everything of cartridge damping to know if it’s need it or not and as Townshend my conclusion was and is that it’s need it.

How each one of us do it that cartridge damping is all about each one of us the easy way to go is with the silicon tray but if any of you have other " solutions " then are welcomed if decide to share it. Remember that’s it’s not to damp the tonearm but the riding cartridge: this is the real subject.

SME had and have its reasons to have that silicon tray as did it Micro Seiki that was a cartridge manufacturer too and other tonearm manufacturers.

Say it does not need it can’t help to the issue and if that does not need it is your way of thinking at least share an explanation why does not need it.

Again science and Townshend tesis says it's need it.

R.

Btw, @dogberry: how much time ago did you that tests with the V/IV  with and with out silicon?

Within the last 18 months the Reference moved off the Series V, initially when it went for a rebuild. When it came back, I put it on a Series IV (as the V now has an LP-S), where it sounds just as exciting. Recently I removed the damping silicon from the V, to see if it made a difference to the LP-S, but I don't think it does. It may be that those cartridges just don't need any damping on those arms.

@mijostyn  : I have to say that time later that when started this thread and in some ways " following " what you said I came back to listen my cartridges/tonearms with out use of the silicon tray and I did it in the last 6-8 months till I decided ( due to some kind of improvements in my room/system ) to tes again the silicon tray that it was an is revelatory for say the least and it's in this way as I decided to folow with that kind of cartridge damping.

R.

Btw, @dogberry: how much time ago did you that tests with the V/IV  with and with out silicon?

R.

@mijostyn  : In this thread and through the Townshend white papers/tesis exist the scientific/measures facts that tells your theory of not silicon damping is wrong and Townshend proved with his design.

I think that you are not aware of that jitter distortion because you never listened/tested the same tonearm/cartridge with and with out that tray.

You need to do it and remember that the you don't need to immerse totally the rod in the silicon tray because you always can put at diffeent immerse distance an additional to that we can make the test with different silicon viscosity values. 

If you decide do not do it then you can't make any critic inside this very specific subject.  You like science and there are those white papers and your own first hand experiences that can or not corroborate your hypothesis showed till today.

Have a good trip if any.

R.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " I certainly do not. " wrong, every cartridge with perfect match to any tonearm lost contact with the LP groove during play ride. Name it mistracking or jitter it does not matters the issue is that you can’t avoid it and if you can’t detect it that’s is your room/system/ears problem not mine.

Many times like in this thread you read but do not in true " read " just read and that’s all.

Anyway, that jitter/mistracking needs tobe disappears and that’s the question fo you: how other than damp the cartridge ( not the tonearm ) stylus/cantilever? and again you are ( for me ) in serious trouble if you can’t detect that phenomenon, really serious even if you don’t care.

Btw, you are very good to critic something as the dust in tha video but even that you are not very good to offer solutions about ( not to clean that dust. That video was an example just to shows what you can't detect yet. )

R.

It was the SME 60k Cs silicon.

@rauliruegas That guy has a serious problem with record hygiene. I can't see the jitter through the dirt. I do not use the term jitter. I call it miss tracking. 

Do you have a problem with mistracking? I certainly do not. The last time I heard one of my cartridges mistrack it was because the stylus wound up pointed in the wrong direction. It was a warranty repair.

As I stated before, if good cartridges are set up properly in the right mass tonearm, damping is not necessary and would even do more damage than good. You use damping to control resonance that can not be controlled any other way. Air bearing linear tonearms benefit from damping. The Saphir might benefit from damping. I know some audiophiles that would definitely benefit from some damping.    

Dear @dogberry  : " Does it sound more dynamic without the damping trough? I can’t say I can tell the difference. "

During LP play we can't avoid the jitter cartridge tracking " phenomenon " that's a kind of " mistracking " because suddenly the stylus tip lost contact with the LP groove. This sudden contact lost develops a kind of " high frequency distortion " that we all are already accustom to and that we all are not really aware when it's happening, so it's not easy say is a mistracking but it's.

Now, the V and IV have different quality level bearings: ABEC 9 in the V against ABEC 7 in the IV. It's weird that you can't detect those two " characteristics ": different bearing and damping.

Now, remember in the V the cSt silicon viscosity? 10K, 100K, etc etc. ?

Thank's in advance,

R.

Zombie threadpocalypse!

I used damping on an SME V because I read it would help the mistracking (which I had not experienced) of the London Decca Reference and these days the same cartridge sits on an SME IV without damping and still exhibits no mistracking. Does it sound more dynamic without the damping trough? I can’t say I can tell the difference.

The Series V holds a Benz LP-S now, and the damping trough has had all the silicon removed.

Dear @mijostyn : Phonograph needle slow-motion microscopy (youtube.com)

Even inside the ideal cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency how can help the cartridge stylus jitter?

We can see several things, first of them is the way very hard task the stylus tip has to ride those tortuose groove modulations, cartridge/tonearm job should be really fenomenal for been faithful to the groove modulations information recorded there the other thing we can see is that the stylus tip ridding is almost " out of its control " almost at " random " as the self cartridge tracking habilities permits it.

And it’s these critical microscopic out of control stylus tip movements the ones that must and should be " tamed " to lower the developed distortions/to lower the additional non recorded movements and for the stylus tip pick up a higher true groove modulations.

Could you share what to do about? because jitter means higher added distorion levels. Due that you posted:

" With proper tonearm matching damping is not needed and indeed is a negative. It is like adding friction to your bearing and forces the cartridge to work harder "

R.

@rauliruegas 

you said you tried all permutations - therefore did you re-create the Townshend Trough? I have a Moerch DP6 which allows damping - and frankly i prefer it without damping - however - mounted using a Towsnhend front trough is an altogether different animal.

There's damping and there is damping and there is damping. 

Dear @lohanimal  : I did it in massive way to the point where the cartridge tonearm can't goes on after the last recorded groove, stop there and can't pass through the end of the non-recorded LP surface before the center label.

I can say that I tested everything you can imagine and in my " natural " well damped tonearm the best  trough is not trough at all. That's what my very high resolution system tells me and to my friends too. Diffreneces for the better are just obvious but as almost always depends on the whole room/system resolution and the kind of test proccess each one of us have for comparisons.

R.

lewm, posted yhe best answer to your stupid post.

"  not so much whether it can be bent by a human exerting strength to bend it. I doubt many arm wands of any kind except maybe steel ones could resist such an effort. "

R.

Titanium is used by Lyra, Audio Technica, Ortofon, etc, etc and I think was used by Graham.

Cartridge manufacturers even in the cantilever.

So your history is only to hit me but youknow what? you never had and never will has success about.

R.

@dover  : Not wrong because the Technics blend in the MK2 is way better in the arm wand that sapphire.

" The EPA-100Mk2 arm was a titanium alloy tube with boron fiber surface inside and out. The fiber gets there by chemical vapor deposition (the method by which the EPC-100MkIV cantilevers were strengthened/stiffened). Because of the way the boron was applied, it created a super-stiff super-light arm tube, which had both longitudinal and torsional stiffness but which absorbed micro vibrations. "

R.

@rauliruegas try and recreate a trough on a large scale. I did (i will email you a design i made once) I tried this out using a paddling pool and found that the water and paddle steadied the movement of my makeshift arm and significantly alleviated my strain. Always visualise and experiment - I'm sure you must be bonkers enough like me to try it out 🤣

I just googled “tubing made out of sapphire”. In the US there are at least two companies that will sell you lab grown pure Sapphire tubes of many different lengths and diameters for very low cost per tube. Who will be the first among us to make his own sapphire tonearm?

Rsf, thank for referencing that thread on WBF. Interesting to note that Kuzma rationalizes cartridge compliance/ tonearm effective mass mismatches, IF a massy tonearm (i.e., his Safir ) is mated to a high compliance cartridge. He points out that modern high end TTs and stands provide good isolation and very low rumble, thereby rendering a low resonant frequency (the result of combining high EM with high compliance) harmless. One comment on the Safir: seems you adjust azimuth by rotating the arm tube near the pivot, as with the Triplanar. This works but also introduces yaw at the headshell because of the headshell offset angle, which may not be such a good thing.

Can all these guys be wrong about the merits and sonics of the Kuzma Safir 9 arm? I think not.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/kuzma-safir-9.34366/page-6#post-840168