I must say that 10,000cst had a massive effect
TONEARM DAMPING : DAMPED OR NOT ? ? USELESS ? ? WELCOMED ? ?
Dear friends: This tonearm critical subject sometimes can be controversial for say the least. Some audiophiles swear for non damped tonearms as the FR designs or SAEC or even the SME 3012 that is not very well damped in stock original status.
Some other audiophiles likes good damped tonearms.
In other thread a gentleman posted:
" If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. " and even explained all what we know about the ideal resonance frequency range between tonearm and cartridge ( 8hz to 12hz. ). He refered to this when said: " properly matched to the tonearm ".
In that same thread that a Triplanar tonearm owner posted:
" This is the one thing about the Triplanar that I don't like. I never use the damping trough...... I imagine someone might have a use for it; I removed the troughs on my Triplanars; its nice to imagine that it sounds better for doing so. "
At the other side here it's a very well damped tonearm:
https://audiotraveler.wordpress.com/tag/townshend/
Now, after the LP is in the spining TT platter ( everything the same, including well matched cartridge/tonearm. ) the must critical issue is what happens once the cartridge stylus tip hits/track the LP grooves modulations.
The ideal is that those groove modulations can pass to the cartridge motor with out any additional kind of developed resonances/vibrations and that the transducer makes its job mantaining the delicated and sensible signal integrity that comes in those recorded groove modulations.
That is the ideal and could be utopic because all over the process/trip of the cartridge signal between the stylus tip ride and the output at the tonearm cable the signal suffers degradation ( resonances/vibrations/feedback ) mainly developed through all that " long trip " .
So, DAMPING IS NEED IT AT THE TONEARM/HEADSHELL SIDE OR NOT?
I'm trying to find out the " true " about and not looking if what we like it or not like it is rigth or not but what should be about and why of that " should be ".
I invite all of you analog lovers audiophiles to share your points of view in this critical analog audio subject. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT?
Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Some other audiophiles likes good damped tonearms.
In other thread a gentleman posted:
" If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. " and even explained all what we know about the ideal resonance frequency range between tonearm and cartridge ( 8hz to 12hz. ). He refered to this when said: " properly matched to the tonearm ".
In that same thread that a Triplanar tonearm owner posted:
" This is the one thing about the Triplanar that I don't like. I never use the damping trough...... I imagine someone might have a use for it; I removed the troughs on my Triplanars; its nice to imagine that it sounds better for doing so. "
At the other side here it's a very well damped tonearm:
https://audiotraveler.wordpress.com/tag/townshend/
Now, after the LP is in the spining TT platter ( everything the same, including well matched cartridge/tonearm. ) the must critical issue is what happens once the cartridge stylus tip hits/track the LP grooves modulations.
The ideal is that those groove modulations can pass to the cartridge motor with out any additional kind of developed resonances/vibrations and that the transducer makes its job mantaining the delicated and sensible signal integrity that comes in those recorded groove modulations.
That is the ideal and could be utopic because all over the process/trip of the cartridge signal between the stylus tip ride and the output at the tonearm cable the signal suffers degradation ( resonances/vibrations/feedback ) mainly developed through all that " long trip " .
So, DAMPING IS NEED IT AT THE TONEARM/HEADSHELL SIDE OR NOT?
I'm trying to find out the " true " about and not looking if what we like it or not like it is rigth or not but what should be about and why of that " should be ".
I invite all of you analog lovers audiophiles to share your points of view in this critical analog audio subject. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT?
Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Showing 24 responses by lohanimal
@rauliruegas Max Townshend told me he will give a link to the 'White Paper' but for now have a look at this link: https://patents.justia.com/patent/4277070 |
With the blessings of Max Townshend - i am happy to provide anyone with the Thesis relating to the Townshend Cranfield Rock turntable. To whet your appetite check out this link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0141635983901058 |
I have a Townshend Rock Elite with a Helius Omega. Sounds very good without the trough - sounds significantly better with the trough. For the uninitiated Townshend Rock turntables use a silicone damping trough at the headshell end. I have used other arms too and the step change is consistent regardless of arm Would you have a car with spring suspension alone, or damping too? Playing the trough at the headshell resolves the resonance at the outset. It's a shame I can't locate thee Professor Dinsdale white paper that explains this fully. |
@mijostyn I have tried more than the one arm/cart with the trough including a Moerch DP6 that allows cartridge arm matching - however which way you do it the trough works its magic. It's just i use it with the Helius Omega - a very good arm. I agree that cartridges do have some in-built damping but it is actually quite crude (it's a piece of rubber). The problem with a rubber spring is the opposite and equal reaction back - ie it's like puncing a ball against a wall. That's why car suspension uses damping whether through air or oil leaving the spring to do its part. placing the damping at the front where the cartridge is creates a significant mechanical advantage and prevents spurious resonances going down the arm in the first place. @kps25scTo some extent the trough improves a cheaper arm (i have used a Jelco/Mission arm - it does not take it totally out of the equation. The Townshend excaliber has come in several guises - many are rega based, but the excaliber sold throughout the 80s was a proprietary design @rauliruegas Funny you like the syrinx - it was re-made by Audio Origami - the chap that makes it is incredibly clever, and will happily speak to you. The current version i am told is a lot better than the Syrinx - i haven't got one so i can't say... All said the guy from Audio Origami told me that one ought to try different oil weights with the Townshend. The CST/Wt was partially arrived at to stop it dripping - he says a thinner oil works and to try and use the thinnest weight that carries out the resonance control whilst also allowing the treble transients to shine through. I hasten to add that I personally don't think that the silicone weight commonly used robs treble energy - it simply cleans up splash. I would love to hear a Maplenoll Ariadne as it used a trough, parallel arm and air-bearing. I think on this note I will try a few different oil weights and try and report back on the thread - silicone oil is readily available for about £3.50 - £5.00 per bottle from radio control car/model shops in precise wt/cst. |
FYI I have asked Max Townshend for a copy of the White Paper from professor Jack Dinsdale about the damping on the Townshend Turntable. With luck he may stick it on his website. Due to an oafish error on my part i damaged the cable on my Helius Omega, so I am going to try out the FR64s on the Townshend once I drill a new arm-board. I haven't used it having set it aside for my JVC QL10 that i am having bits done to. I am very curious how the trough works with this arm. I know that Jcarr ain't a big fan nor @rauliruegas there again @syntax is a big fan of the arm for its energy transference. I will report back my findings. |
Hi @rauliruegas i think I will try some silicone o-rings first that’s unless I can get sorbothane o-rings - I think the use of tape is just a bit clumsy. I have various frequency sweeps and methods to measure arm/cartridge resonance - though I’m not sure how I will apply this - happy for suggestions. Using my ear alone is always going to be subjective. |
Well @rauliruegas I tried the FR64s with the trough. My audio chain: 1. Modified Townshend Rock Elite 2. FR64s arm 3. Monster Sigma Genesis 2000MC 4. Cardas Golden Reference phono cable 5. Lavardin IT amp 6. DNM speaker cables 7. Roksan Darius S1 speakers I have this in a nearfield set up. I used 10,000 cst silicone oil which i understand is lighter than the standard oil weight. I had a short listen to the FR64s and thought it sounded perfectly good - though I must say the image precision was a tad lacking but it had plenty of gusto. I stuck it in the trough and the transformation was very clear. At first you think images are smaller - in fact they are far more precise and occupy spaces much better. In addition to this surface noise comes down and bass was more preisee to my ears |
@rauliruegas I used the Monster Sigma deliberately because it is a very light 4.5gram cartridge which is medium compliance I am going to use my Shelter 501 mk 2 next which is both heavier and much lower compliance. The use of the trough made a significant difference. When i say 'perfectly good' I was using a very English phrase that may have been a bit lost in translation. Remember that the rest of my audio chain is good, so it's never going to sound that bad... What i will say that i will do more extensive listening once I've given the headshell, arm and cable a good run in with my burn in disk. |
@rauliruegas I agree with everything you said @lewm I wish i had the means to check the resonance of the arm tube alone I'm pretty certain that there ought to be a relationship of arm resonance/ cartridge compliance/Oil weight. My own theory FWIW stems largely from racing radio controlled cars (don't laugh) they have miniaturised suspension with coil over shocks. You can use progressive or linear rate springs. It's not always a hard and fast rule because other factors such as roll centre, camber etc come into play. In general when one increases the spring rate/poundage you normally increase the oil viscosity. I've always likened a cartridge cantilever to a suspension arm. All said and done the cartridge/stylus only travels a tiny amount and it may explain why such high viscosity tends to be used. I hope to conduct experiments with the Shelter 501 and as I said I will remit back to this thread. My other arm is a moerch DP6 - that can have silicone added (near the pivot)- I did add a bit. The effect on the silicone being added to that is nothing like the townshend which has the silicone at the headshell. I spoke to Max Townshend and he says the effect of the silicone trough is thee same for any cartridge. I don't doubt him - but curiosity makes me want to explore this :) @bdp24 The Maplenoll Ariadne also had a silicone trough at the headshell end. It used a parallel arm. I am told it was brilliant but there were problems with the pump. Unless I am to be corrected it is a partial inspiration for the Walker Proscenium. @yeti42 I would like to get the bellows feet - what was the improvement? On another point - there are other motor options - PM me as i have a massively modified drive on the Rock Elite. |
I find audiophile discussions hilariously boils down to this. Many talk about bloom, je ne cais quoi, inexplicable. Thee science has not caught up to explain what i can hear so science must be wrong. The mathematician once said that his maths were from gos and were always a discovery. There is always an explanation for why things are what they are. Flat-Earthers clearly refer to facts and figures - DD lovers ought to be from this camp - strangely not... But remember this @rauliruegas isn't it always more important to simply enjoy what it is you have? distortions or not - they can both be great fun. |
@mijostyn You don't need a damping trough with a CD playere - just seismic pods. Pre-Galileo most thought the Earth to be the centre of thee solar system. Using a tangenital arm - with a a needle in a groove is inherently flawed. It does not change that it is my preferred method pf music playback. The trough system has worked on every arm I happen to own. I wonder if the naysayers have experienced it - or is a bit like people comparing cars they have never - or never will - own? I appreciate the banter and pseudo-science of most the posters here - me - I prefer the dissertation of Bugge signed off by professor Dinsdale - pm me if you want a copy - Max Townshend said I can share it. I just wish that on occasion some posters will admit they like a warm, bloomy, sound that is ultimately a lack of focus created by extraneous vibration. I have to say its very entertaining (FR64S arm is a great example - and I own one). |
You say you have very good damped arms and have read the Bugge thesis i sent to you. That being said have you heard the townshend in action? The original excaliber arm and the current one (which is custom made to order) could also be factored into the equation - I understand thee original arm doesn't have a fully fixed pivot point so to speak and floats in silicone - I might be wrong. When you say you damp the arm - for most it is: a. a silicone trough near the base like you get for Moerchs and SME's. Arguably pointless because the spurious resonance does not get killed at source. Liken it to a long car wishbone - the damper and springs are mounted closer to the wheel due to the better control it provides to the forces b. you damp with tape or a head-shell attachment - the spurious energy remains and gets transferred down the arm. It is mechanically brilliant and effective. Enough of the theory - buy a Townshend ROCK of any iteration then use your ears.
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@rauliruegas try and recreate a trough on a large scale. I did (i will email you a design i made once) I tried this out using a paddling pool and found that the water and paddle steadied the movement of my makeshift arm and significantly alleviated my strain. Always visualise and experiment - I'm sure you must be bonkers enough like me to try it out 🤣 |
you said you tried all permutations - therefore did you re-create the Townshend Trough? I have a Moerch DP6 which allows damping - and frankly i prefer it without damping - however - mounted using a Towsnhend front trough is an altogether different animal. There's damping and there is damping and there is damping.
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