TONEARM DAMPING : DAMPED OR NOT ? ? USELESS ? ? WELCOMED ? ?

Dear @millercarbon  and friends : " Of course they need to be damped. The question is in what way? And how much? "

Totally in agreement. Yes, one way or other tonearms must be damped.

 As a fact any analog rig item and the whole room/system needs always some kind of damping even electronics at its circuit boards passive and active parts, same for loudspeakers but at the analog rig and due that is almost a mechanical " system " the damping down there is need it no matters what.

Room/systems can't avoid its ( any kind. ) developed resonances/vibrations that per sé always degrades the audio signal.

Resonances/vibrations is the true DEVIL that impedes to have better quality level listening experiences in any room/audio system and we can't avoid/disappears totally, the only alternative is to lower the levels of those resonances/frequencies and this can be achieved using different dampening solutions.

In what way? ( example in room ): acoustic treatment as bass traps, acoustic panels and difussors.

How much?, this is a really hard to say/answer because depends on many factors.

 It's not only the need or not to damp the tonearm but to take in count that tonearm is part of the analog rig because is mounted/attached to a TT that is seated ( normally ) in a damped plattform but some times it's not over that kind of plattforms and things about goes with higher resonances/vibrations developed around it.

I think that we need to analize the complete analog rig to decide that " how much ".

 The TT it self is a resonance/vibration source always through its motor, plinth, platter, bearing and arm board.

 One way or the other we need to take care that the whole TT be good damped and after that we can focus in the cartridge/tonearm damping and here exist variables that we have to take in count to define the damping issue: we need to own a good platter mat, A PLATTER/lp CLAMP, TO KNOW THE CARTRIDGE SELF TRACKING HABILITIES ( NOT ONLY ITS COMPLIANCE ), cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency, how good is damped the cartridge it self ( example the AT ART1 has a titanium body and has a rubber body cover at the below plate. ),   obviously how well is damped the tonearm design and how good is the tonearm bearing and if it's an unipivot desing or gimball type or LT, how many play hours has the cartridge stylus tip, SPL usually we listen the LPs.

All those " characteristics " and several others ( like an accurated cartridge/tonearm alignment set up. ) will condition what we can do about and that through several controled listening tests can confirm that " how much " and where.

As we can see not an easy task and our music/sound trained ears levels and room/siytem resolution will have the final decision with each cartridge/tonearm combination.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

As I do have this Jelco 750EB with "top cup" - I can say that if not damped it's rather inferior with high compliance cartridges (no silicon oil in cup) 

With heavyweights/low compliance like SPU difference isn't so obvious, it takes time to understand that damping (silicon oil in cup) is better.

With high compliance difference is night and day.

Dear @noromance : the Jelco tonearms I know came/comes with oil damping system at the " top cup " of the pivot. Models SA and this new one too:

https://audiosensibility.com/Store/us_store.htm#!/Jelco-TS-550S-MKII-9-Tonearm-***-New-***/p/1893469...

R.

i agree with sentiments stated that overdamping is a common fault when using these tonearms/systems that allow fluid damping to be applied

less is more for sure

but some is better than none has been my experience

like all else in analog system ownership, finding ’just right’ is the trick, and it takes patience and sustained effort to achieve it

It is very difficult to arrive at a general principle regarding tonearm damping, because in each individual instance any two different tonearms are going to be different from one another in many other ways, besides the presence or absence of damping and notwithstanding how the damping is applied, where there is any damping.  So I have come to evaluate each tonearm as an entity unto itself.  I own a Triplanar and wouldn't think of using it without its trough, although removing the trough from the Triplanar is a common theme on this forum going way back to Doug Deacon.  I also own an FR64S which I like very very much with many different cartridges, despite its lack of formal damping.  But the FR64S, at least as I use it, does employ mass damping, especially if you use it with its B60 accessory which adds a lot of mass to the base of the pivot.  On top of that, I mount mine in a mass-loaded tonearm mounting board consisting of two large pieces of machined aluminum bolted together (photos upon request).  Mass damping is still damping, even without some gooey substance dragging on the tonearm.  At the opposite extreme, I am not familiar with the latest Well Tempered tonearms, but I did have a lot of experience with the WT Reference tonearm, which in my opinion is WAY overdamped and makes every LP sound the same, regardless of the cartridge.  So, I would approach this question as regards one particular design and then ask does it sound better with or without damping.  I also don't agree with Mijostyn's oversimplified idea that if the resonant frequency is between 8 and 12Hz, no damping is needed.  Damping done right can broaden the resonant peak and reduce its maximum magnitude, which may be worth doing even within the magical boundaries of 8 to 12Hz.  But one would have to listen first.

I am not sure there is a blanket answer to this question. I suspect certain arm designs would benefit from having a dampening trough and others not so much. As anything it may be on a scale. Also, it may depend on which cartridge is installed, and to an extent which turntable it is on. What I have found is that its very easy to apply too much dampening to a turntable.

I have owned a  Townshend Rock MK III, currently have a Well Tempered Reference table, and the SME V I have has the trough also. I have found with the WTR and the Townshend that its easy to get the paddle too deep into the reservoir and the end result is a lifeless sound that is lacking harmonic texture and decay. But a light touch of the paddle into the silicone results in improved tracking in many cases. Once again it depends on how well the cartridge matches the tone arm, and its more of a tool to get a closer compliance match. I have also found that the cartridges I have installed on the SME V have no audible benefit from using the trough, so I currently have it empty. 

I think this is something you evaluate by a case by case basis. I also notice that Bruce Thigpin discontinued the use of a trough on his ET II tone arm a number of years ago, as he felt the benefits were minimal if any on his design. 

Raul, damping is a crutch for situations where you have a cartridge that is too compliant for the arm or an arm that is too heavy for the cartridge.
With proper tonearm matching damping is not needed and indeed is a negative. It is like adding friction to your bearing and forces the cartridge to work harder pulling the tonearm back and forth particularly on an eccentric record. Vertical damping might cause difficulty negotiating warps. 

Don't use crutches. Fix the problem.

I bought an Elite Rock in 89, I used it with a Rega 300 arm for 20 years and tried it with and without the trough and outrigger but never for very long. I then bought a lightly used Naim Aro, and initially used the damping arrangement but this time when I tried without it never went back on. Cartridge was a DV17D2, or rather several of them. I say never but that’s not strictly true. I had the Rock fitted with Max’s bellows feet, which I found a nice improvement over the sorbothane originals, and at the same time bought a white polyethylene platter as used on the mk7, though machined to fit the mk2. Using this the stylus wouldn’t stay in the groove without use of the trough on the Aro but though sounding impressively more dynamic the timing went all awry and music became less engaging so the plaster platter went back on and the trough came off. Max would blame the unipivot arm, I blame his plastic platter for reflecting vibrations back into the disc instead of damping them. A VRS record weight didn’t make enough difference when I tried one and anyway gets in the way at the end of side.
I reckon you can underdamp or overdamp, getting the right amount is the key.

Well, your Jelco tonearms are silicon damped by design

@rauliruegas Can you kindly clarify?

i have the townshend elite rock mk 3 (with rega origin live arm) and also a well tempered amadeus

i find i like the sound of a well damped arm over an undamped one (i.e. vpi jmw 3d, or a jelco) -- seems like the cartridge can dig deeper into the music, more bass more air music is more solid - feel this happens on numerous carts i have run over time (from grace f9 ruby to at art 9 to shelter 901 to dyna xx2 and tke to koetsu black to benz glider)

maybe my mind is imagining that... but i do believe the sq difference is there

i just wish the damn motor on the townshend were quieter...

Dear @noromance : Well, your Jelco tonearms are silicon damped by design and if you test that wrap around the arm wand your listening experiences will be even better.

No one can lost nothing with the arm wand wrap tape because if we don’t like then we just take out.

R.

Dear @millercarbon : I don't know if you remember that many years ago Sumiko marketed the Analog Survival Kit that is a great analog accesory.  It uses as a wrap around the tonearm wand in helicoidal way.

Well, any one of us can use something similar even in the Townshend tonearm, here materials that could help about but you could find out even other material alternatives
. It's a must to do/test in any non-damped or not well damped tonearm as the FR/SAEC and the like:

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Vibration-Damping-Tape-434/?N=5002385+32...

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Sorbothane-Strip-1-tira-0236225-50/dp/B00B84GVBE/ref=rtpb_3/262-9954503-...

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/3M-2552-adhesiva-amortiguaci%C3%B3n-acr%C3%ADlico/dp/B007Y7CNA2/ref=rtpb...

Any one can be sure that will have a difference for the better.

Obviously that we need to make a tiny VTF change. Effective mass is almost with no change so we have not to worry about the tonearm/cartridge frequency resonance level.


R.

Comparing two different arms makes it awfully hard to be sure what is responsible for what. Damping works but like I said it depends what we are talking about and how- and how much.  

For example take fO.q tape. This stuff is pretty much pure damping. Even a little bit of it placed just about anywhere on the tone arm is an improvement. Even on the arm base, which isn't hardly even the arm. But the whole turntable and everything on it is one big vibrating system. So stands to reason anything anywhere will affect it. The question is in what way. And how much. 

With the tape its greater resolution of fine detail, that greatly improves presence, yet without adding any harsh edge. One of the rare times damping actually improves things this way.

Put it this way: My knife-edge sounds better than my Well Tempered clone.

Probably better off with a CMan Isolator

Of course they need to be damped. The question is in what way? And how much?