It's critical that I approve af everything that goes on, as otherwise a critical mistake could be made. Also, I hear something about the lack of "speed, dynamics, bass control, punch" with tube amps from time to time and I simply don't get it. Unless playing something at really high levels or having a mismatch someplace I think modern tube amps have plenty of everything SS amps have...in fact a good test of tube "snappiness" is any tube guitar amp compared to any SS guitar amp...great tube guitar amps always feel more "touch sensitive" meaning "insto blasto immediato", which is from the Old Roman term for "better guitar amp." Remember, tubes and transistors are doing the same damn thing in circuits, and a properly set up tube rig will kinda kick butt, so to speak. |
Have to agree with Wolf, a good quality tube amplifier has wonderful dynamics, timing and natural bass weight and texture. In the sense of realism is actually better than many SS amplifiers. I can certainty understand Mikirob and his musician relatives perspective regarding tubes natural sound. I have friends who are musicians but not audiophiles and they always seem to immediately recognize and gravitate toward the tonality and lively sound of tubes when exposed to them.
Charles, |
Just had a nice conversation with a gentleman from Jolida named Mike who was very knowledgeable and helpful. Their product seems a great value for the money, but will it be a significant upgrade from my current T-100? It would seem so to me. |
Ebuzz,
There's only one sure way to find out. It should be both fun and informative to compare these different types of amplifiers in your audio system(as long as the speaker is compatible).
Best of Luck, |
Thanks, Dad! The speakers should all be OK. I did check that out. Fun? I hope so, but I hope I don't make a BIG mistake. |
It wouldn't seem so to me.
Let's not compare instrument amps to the amps at hand. Very different tools for very different jobs. |
Analogy police alert! No, guitar amps are NOT different, except they're generally mono (Swart does make a stereo one, and there may be others) and there are WAY more of them, and if I think the comparison/analogy makes sense it's simply because it does. 2nd or 3rd order harmonics, Class A or A/B...tube or SS rectifyer...hand wired or not, tube rolling maniacs...same damn thing really, with some practical differences of course...you can't find many hifi amps with spring reverb or cowboy tolex, so there's that. Mesa Boogie made that insane Baron amp and people liked it...who knew? |
Hi Ebuzz. I agree with Charles1Dad's recent post. Only you will be able to know if any tube amp will be a significant upgrade to your existing T-100.
I have a Jolida JD-502P amp and I won an auction for a Hafler 9505 Transnova amp that was fully working. In my system I swapped out the Jolida for the solid state Hafler as I've always wanted to listen to this Hafler amp in my system. I kept everything the same. Now I couldn't say exactly which amp in my system was a significant upgrade but what I could tell was that it made the sound very different. With the Hafler 9505 in place the volume controls on my system got even more sensitive. It gets really loud but still clear with the volume on my preamp at the 9 o clock position.
So just be wary you might not get a significant upgrade in sound you just might get different sound that you may or may not prefer. |
There are many unsound ideas tossed about when discussing tubes vs SS. Wolf, again, hits nail on head. |
One of the more legendary guitar amps was made by Sunn, and was nothing more than a Dynaco MkIII. Looked a lot nicer than the Dynaco though :) |
OK, but getting back to the issue at hand....ME!! I've sort of settled on a Jolida JD 1000P with all the Underwood HiFi mods. It would have been nice to go for a ARC, MAC, CJ, BAT or something with a more widely regarded reputation, but none of those would be in my price range. Not new anyway, and it would be nice to have the security of a warranty.
There doesn't seem to be any other options at this price point that would be this nice. It seems to be the best bargain for the buck. Any objections? |
While on the topic off Sunn guitar amps, there is a band Sunn 0))) that named themselves after the Sunn amp and its logo. Deep booming sludge metal that is quite the bass workout. And fabulous live. |
Ebuzz,
Congratulations! Let us know your impressions once you've become familiar and comfortable with your tube power amplifier. Keep in mind that down the road there's ample flexibility via tube rolling to really tailor the sound to your discretion. This is a significant perk with tubes.
Charles, |
Thanks, Jedi, that is one fear that I do have. Different, but not necessarily better. Don't know exactly how to deal with that problem, and that's what makes this decision so stressful. My T-100 is a fine amp, but I know it's not like one of the older Thresholds (when NP was still there), and it certainly isn't up there with those "A" rated amps. So I figure this has got to be better (fingers crossed). |
An instrument amp isn't required to have the same frequency range as an audio amp. The fact that musicians choose one amp over another for it's sound, reflects that instrument amps aren't necessarily as neutral as an audio amp needs to be. Instrument amps can be an extension of the instruments characteristic sound, something that would be an anathema to a "high fidelity" audio amp. |
I suspect musicians are drawn to the tone/harmonic overtones of tube amps when compared to the transistor alternatives. May just sound more natural to their ears. Same idea probably applies be it instrumental or audio amplifier. They have surely stood the test of time in both applications.
Charles, |
Hi Ebuzz
One thing I forgot to mention is one thing you can do to handle the different but not necessarily better is tube roll. Warning this can be a very slippery slope. Really spend time listening to your Jolida as is a lot first before making tube changes. I was pretty excited when I got my 502P. I made notes of what people used in their Jolidas as well as read other tube reviews. In anticipation of tube rolling I purchased all sorts of preamp and power tubes and listed the combinations I was going to try. After awhile I was just swapping out tubes frequently. I have a large sized USPS box full of power and preamp tubes just for the Jolida now. I should have followed Wolf's path and kept things simple with the Tung Sol KT-120 power tubes, EH 12AT7s and just change out the 12AX7s.
Anyway enjoy and have fun. How are you going to A/B the Threshold T-100 vs the Jolida 1000P? |
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Thanks Jedi, I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do the A/B comparisons, I sold my T-100 and will pack it up and ship it off this week. It's sort of a leap of faith thing at this point. |
I wouldn't pick up tube amp for speakers that sound BEST with solid state amplification. |
Czar, are you saying my JM Labs sound BEST with SS amplification? |
Note: I did get those Mullard CV4024s to replace the EC 12AT7s. The 1000p shound give you years of finger burning tube rolling and tons of delightful tube glow. |
Thanks again Wolf; I'm going to pull the trigger sometime today. The only snag is that I may go for a ARC VS115 I found for a good price. I'm sort of sedentary in my ways, i.e., when I get something I tend to stick with it forever! So I want to get the best I can afford now, and not have to worry about upgrading in a few years. I can get the ARC for less than $900 more than the 1000P. Seems like a no-brainer.
I'll decide after lunch!!! |
Ebuzz, EXACTLY!
I understand that tube desire can be so strong that owner is willing to sacrifice system performance(seen many cases like that) and even make themselves believe that sound became more 'natural', but the fact will always remain the fact. |
Ebuzz I wish you the best either way you decide to go. I wouldn't assume
that the ARC is "sonically" superior to the Jolida although it
certainly has more brand cache and prestige. Tube biasing and
matainance may be an advantage toward the Jolida. An audition of both of
these in your system would definitively solve the question of sonics . It's
my perception but the ARC amplifiers come off lean and whitish in
character when I've heard them, could just be the systems ? Jolida
amplifiers are low negative feedback (5 db) designs so speaker choice will
be a factor.
Charles, |
All I can say is, Curiosity killed THIS Cat. I was pretty much like you.
I had an older Audio Research D120 ss amp that was recommended to me by a dealer (thanks Tim!) over newer and more expensive ARC products. With this amp hooked up to my Berning preamplifier, AND with appropriate cables, I was getting 90% of what a VS115/LS17 was producing.
But Nooo, I had to be a greedy audiophile who wanted it ALL.
So, I sold the D120 and got a D115 instead-Supposedly one of the all-time greats..
The result: A warmer, narrower soundstage, with increased smoothness in the upper midrange and enouch HEAT to make Satan squirm. Now, my Proacs no longer dissapear; and there is a distinct loss of detail, neutrality and Bass SLAM.
So, after 700 bucks spent in replacement tubes and repairs, I've made a step backwards and wonder why I did it... |
Yeah, I just got to get this over with, be a man and make a decision. STOP ME before I start a VS 115 vs Jolida 1000P thread!!! |
Well, what did you like and dislike about your system when using your old amp? |
Unsound, when you only know one thing, it's hard to say what you don't like. It's not that there's some thing about it that I dont like, per se,it's just that its all I've know. I want to try something different, and tubes is the way I want to go. |
How did it compare to live music? Just trying to steer you towards an amp that might satisfy you, even within tube amps, there are different sonic personalities. |
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Someone commented on the occasional misinformation that surfaces here.
I agree.
Back to the guitar tube amp sub-topic.
It is my understanding that tubes are desired in that application because when they clip they produce harmonic distortion that is part of the desired sound.
A clipping transistor sounds WAY different and is NOT the sound that is wanted.
Guitar tube amps are frequently pushed to clipping because of the desired distortion. Think Hendrix!
Now an amp for a stereo is not pushed to clipping and so that benefit found in guitar tube amps does not transfer to tube amps used in Hi Fi.
Comparing guitar tube amps to Hi Fi tube amps is like comparing apples to oranges. They are both fruit, butÂ… the application is different!
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I would say that the T-100 did have a nice sound, but if it was lacking anything it would be in the areas of separation and perhaps sound stage. |
OK, so there is a chance that the switch might not be all that I hope for, but it's a little too late for me now. My T-100 is sold so I've got to do something. At this point, I'm committed to giving tubes a try and hoping for the best. The sole issue is: a new Jolida 1000P or a used ARC VS115 with new tubes, in "excellent" condition for approx $800 more? |
Ebuzz, make sure you have checked to see if there are any potential issues with the tube amp driving the loudspeakers you have. |
> Atmasphere: I have checked that and either amp will drive my speakers without issue. |
I use and have used over many years a lot of tube guitar amps and various hybrid or all SS amps, and the tone when ovedriven isn't necessarily the way to see what's what with a particular amp. I find any amp will develop a greasy overdrive when pushed, and often it's helped along with a (usually SS) distortion gizmo which further complicates the issue. I met Jimi Hendrix and watched him play a couple of times from about 9 feet away, and noticed that he often played using a clean tone at reasonable levels but, of course, using two (or 3) piles of high powered tube amps with 16 speakers in 4 cabinets made it possible to get his guitar to feed back at will. He cranked it also at times (with an early SS fuzz box), but those brilliant "comping chord" fill things were clean (but loud enough!). I judge any amp by its ability to put out a nice, powerful, and interesting clean punch...and add in the the grease fest from there onward. Low preamp settings with unristricted (not held back by master volume level) output power tubes (or transistors) will demonstrate the tonal characteristics and "feel" (instantaneous response) of an amp, and an experienced guitar player can easily "feel the differences between tube and SS in a New York minute. This translates easily to home gear, and I see the differences in the tonal response of tube or SS hifi amps as fitting exactly with what I've learned from my seemingly endless guitar and hifi amp fiddling. It's like comparing apples to other apples. |
Ebuzz...remember, you can get 2 Jolida JD502Ps and run them in mono at around 120 watts per side. You can start with one and add another one when your tax refund comes in...nothing like 2 power amps with 16 tubes to heat up the room and confound your friends. I was gonna do this but my single 502 gets enough music into the place by its little self. Also, Rick at Audioforce sold me my amp (official Jolida dealer, and the best deal I found at the time), and the upgrade was done by Jolida MD before shipping, which was also a very good deal. |
I was waiting for your input Wolf. Although 2 amps sounds nice, for the foreseeable future that isn't doable for me. That being said, I'm sticking to just one amp. My guess would be that you are of the opinion that a new 1000P would do me better than an "excellent condition" ARC VS 115 with 2 sets of tubes, one set brand new?
Hurry and make a decision, I want to do this today? LOL :) |
Well, tubes might just be the ticket for you. Soundstage is usually a strength attributed to tube amps, as for separation I'm not sure what context you are referring to. But, I'll concede what tube amps might be more inclined to fulfill your desires within your budget to those that might have more intimate knowledge of such things. At least they will have now have a better baseline to work from to put forth appropriate recommendations. Best of luck! |
Hi Ebuzz
Regarding the new Jolida 1000P vs the "excellent condition" ARC VS 115 with 2 sets of tubes, one set brand new. Say you were to buy the Jolida new with warranty etc and you find you don't like the music from your system with the Jolida in place when you sell it you may lose a lot of money on the re-sale. Wolf showed me a listing of a black Jolida 502P that wasn't that old sell for $650 + shipping at an auction. The 502P sells for about $990 new. With the ARC VS115 since you are buying it used you may be able to re-sell it for close to what you bought it for keeping the loss to a minimum. You could even sell off the extra set of tubes for some extra money. Sorry if you knew this already but it is something I would consider if I was in your situation. |
The ARC amp seems like a really sweet deal and I bet the thing sounds great. That particular model amp is way cool. Resale value has merit, and I think well maintained used gear is always the way to go if it's discounted enough, as that amp seems to be. As a surfer I always think it's a good thing to "get tubed." |
Warranty ...Warranty!! that's the only issue now for me to work on. I do like the idea of the security a warranty offers, but Jedi & Wolf do have a good points. I gotta do this SOON!
Maybe I'll just flip a coin!! |
Jedinite24 makes a good case in economic terms for the used ARC. The question is which sound presentation will be more to your taste and long term happiness? The Jolida isn't expensive and is said to really respond to rolling better tubes(with ARC your limited to the 6H30 input tube only). I wouldn't down play the ease of the Jolida's tube biasing either.
A strong case can be made for both amplifiers. |
Be a Man! OK, someone step up to the plate, be a man and tell me what the HELL to do! :)
Jolida: pros: New; Easy bias; EL-34 tubes (ppl have said my
JM lab speakers tend to be a bit "bright"
so the 34's may sound better than 6550's)
cons: ?
ARC: pros: resale value; higher quality? extra tubes
name recognition?
cons: no warranty, $845 more |
ARC's are lean, and you have a SS preamp, I don't get it? Personally, I would never have a SS preamp, but I could go with a good SS amp. For the tube sound, the logical place to start is the pre. Manufacturers who make tube pre amps, also make SS amps, but never the others way around. While ARC is the best amp, I still don't get it for the ultimate sound, which will be almost SS because ARC is so lean.
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For me it comes down to what sonic characteristics are you seeking? Speaking in generalities based on my listening the ARC has a leaner sound than most tube amplifiers. Some attribute that partially to the use of the 6H30 as input tube. Some say this is good and the ARC has more clarity and transparency, some say it's more neutral. I suspect that the Jolida is relatively speaking a bit warmer and fuller in body and tone. Jolida has more opportunities to tailor the sound due to much broader choices in the input/driver tubes. So what type of sound would you be more attracted to? There are good choices of el34 tubes for variety of sonic character as well. |
Had the ARC in the past. If it were me, I'd go Jolida. The ARC, to my ears in my room was lean, with a dry, whitish sound. Not my cup of Joe. |
That's it then. I'll go with the Jolida. Mucho thanks for all the help and insight. |
Mikirob,
Seems we hear in a similar fashion (in the past I've own an ARC preamp and friends have owned their pre and power amplifiers ). The question is what type of sound is Ebuzz seeking? |
Score one for Jolida...now if they would update their website from 2010... |
