Time to buy a class D amp?

It looks interesting. Hpa 9  has also two levels of gain, i always prefer low gain.
Keep us posted on your impressions on amg pre. 

Hi there,
I am a newbie to the audiophile world and am looking to make a step up from my current setup which is a Monitor Audio Bronze BR2 + KEF TDM 45B + Denon 1910 AVR (all entry level except for the KEF). I’ve found a nice deal online for two Red Dragon S500 Monoblocks for $2K and I am just about ready to jump the trigger. To those who’ve actually used class D amplifiers (as I really cannot participate in the class A/AB vs D discussion) do you know if there is a great difference between the pascal amplifiers vs ICEpower vs HYPEX ? The speakers will of course also be upgrades soon.

I’ve found a nice deal online for two Red Dragon S500 Monoblocks for $2K and I am just about ready to jump the trigger.

They use the same  Class-D modules, slightly moded by Pascal that you’ll find in the $10K Rowland Research Continuum 2.

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1820971?highlight=Rowland%2B%2BContinuum%2BRed%2BDragon

Me, I’d advise you to go a nice linear A/B amp

Cheers George

Hi George,

Having read through all pages I more than understand your viewpoint on A/B’s. The issue for me is mostly that I am living in an apartment and have a space issue, so for now a Class-D will give me good amplification in a form-factor that will match my current situation. As soon as I have a dedicated room to listen to my audio to I will be looking at other options!

Regardless, thanks for your reply, I’ll look into it!

Hello bolduque,

     It seems you’re at the stage that I, and likely almost every Audiogon member, was at in the early point in their interest in the home audio hobby. You’ve built a decent system that you enjoy and are interested in exploring how you can make your listening experiences even more enjoyable.
     Welcome to the hobby that, from my experience as a now 61 year old still very interested in home audio and video, will likely become a lifelong pursuit and journey for yourself. My main advice to you is to educate yourself and broaden your listening experience. This involves reading beginner’s guides to home audio, joining multiple audio forums (joining this one is already a very good start) and listening to as many audio systems as you can at friends, relatives and audio stores to find out what’s possible, the costs and what you like. There’s a lot to learn and listen to. I think an important skill to develop is restraint and resisting the urge to buy too soon which almost all salespersons will be constantly urging you to do. I suggest you take your time, save your money, learn as much as you can and take notes.
     It’s really a balancing act since you’re only going to improve your system by buying stuff but you want to make sure it’s the right stuff for you. When I was just starting out, I recall setting a general budget and planning out your system improvement steps.
     I could probably write a book on this subject but don’t really want to do it right now on this post. So, I think your inclination of progressing from an AVR to separate components is a good first step but I’d like to learn more about how you use your current system (audio only or audio and video?), the types of music you listen to (rock, classical, jazz or other? and at what volume level?)what you like and don’t like about your system, your current room details and what you’d like to improve. If you let me know this, I can better assist you.

Later,
Tim

Tim does not have to write a book. That last post was the perfect summary and best advise anyone could give. Take your time to absorb as much info until the answer comes to you. Someone else giving you the answer is usually their answer. Have fun ... after all, it is shopping.

I’ve found a nice deal online for two Red Dragon S500 Monoblocks for $2K and I am just about ready to jump the trigger.

 
When you say you’ve found a nice deal on 2 S500 monoblocks for $2k, I hope that’s new, as when in stock they are only $799 each new!
https://www.reddragonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers/products/m500-mkii?variant=248192058

Cheers George

BTW the M500 monoblocks if real monoblocks, will sound better than a pair of "bridged stereo S500’s" even though the S500’s will have more watts.

Cheers George

niodari OP

BUT the best will be if you use 2 x stereo S500's and vertically bi-amp them. (Not bridge them)
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/uploads/monthly_2016_03/7_Vertical_Bi-Amp.jpg.ba97802ae9...

Cheers George

"When you say you’ve found a nice deal on 2 S500 monoblocks for $2k, I hope that’s new, as when in stock they are only $799 each new!"
https://www.reddragonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers/products/m500-mkii?variant=248192058

Hello bolduque,

     Georgehifi is correct, the Red Dragon 500 monoblocks were discontinued about a year ago and the price was reduced to $799 each, while supplies lasted. The supplies only lasted a few months on both the silver and the black color options of these monoblock models because they're high quality amps that received very good reviews that were offered at an extreme bargain price. I had even attempted to buy a pair of these amps as soon as I heard of the clearance price reduction but they were already sold out of both black and silver models.  Here's a copy of the Positive Feedback review that inspired me to try a pair of Red Dragon S500 monos:
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/red-dragon-audio-m500-and-m1000-mkii-amplifiers-2/

     I called Red Dragon at the time and sent an email to them a couple of times requesting a back order and any upcoming new models.  Here is their response:

"Ryan Tew Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 3:17 PM
Hi Tim We are working on an entirely new MkIII generation and hope to have them ready later this year. Thanks, Ryan Tew President - Red Dragon Audio www.RedDragRyan Tew <ryan@reddragonaudio.com>Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 6:36 PMto me

Hi Timothy,

We are working on a redesign of the chassis and at the same time we're pushing a new product lineup (and a MkIII version of the S500 and M1000).
Look for us to be ready in 2020Q1

Thanks,

Ryan Tew
President - Red Dragon Audio"

     Well, it's already the 1st quarter of 2020 so it seems like Red Dragon's new MKIII version debut of their amp lineup should hopefully be introduced and available very soon.

     You asked on your first post about the differences between the various class D power modules: ICE Power, Hypex and Pascal.  The truth is there's more to the overall sound of any class D amp than just the power module used.  In general, all these class D amp modules have such low distortion and background noise levels, are so accurate, neutral and detailed that even small variances in their associated components and design can result in variances in performance; things such as custom input boards, the switching transistors employed, the switching carrier frequency filters and perhaps even the specific carrier switching frequency utilized.
     As I believe you know, utilizing separates rather than your current AVR requires not only a separate stereo amp or monoblock amps, it also requires a separate preamp for connecting and switching between the sources used (turntable, CD, dac/streamer, etc.).  Class D amps are in general so neutral that the sound quality of the preamp will be a critical factor in your system's overall sound.  I still believe the speakers are the  predominate factor in overall system sound but, if class D amps are in the audio chain, the preamp becomes the 2nd most critical factor in a system's overall sound quality.

Later,
 Tim

bolduque , in addition to the useful and valuable notes by Tim and George, i would still suggest you to try a class D amp. You may spent less money for the sound quality you will get, will save space and energy. There are very good sounding class D amps, and i am now convinced that some of them give a very neutral uncolored sound (one example is a Cherry Megaschino amp that i am using already for about a month or so -- i can hardly imagine an amplifier that would have a more neutral  and clean (and perhaps also detailed) sound, the rest is the thing of a taste, and you can "colour" your sound with an appropriate preamplifier depending on your taste). 

Red Dragon, monoblocks, if they are new model (released this year) then $2K  could be a good deal, otherwise not. Bear in mind that Reg Dragon is not good for low impedance speakers (if your speaker are 8  ohms then it would be fine).  

Demo’d Two class d amps, not my thing, flat lifeless, sounded like it was playing music, with no emotion, or excitement.
 Your results may vary, this is just my opinion.

 Smaller, lighter, easier to move, etc etc.

 A,  OR  A/AB Still sounds better to. My ears.

 No ragging, this is just my ears, yours maybe different.

even my class H sunfire blows away class d.

demoed the devialet, it was a 400+W one, had for 12 days, left on for several days to warm up, nope, not my thing.

also the thor, or Loki, or whichever those were, those were promising, but I had to return them and have my card credited after 10 days.

i prefer my class H Sunfire.

With the same success, you may demo two class ab amps. How many class d amps exist? You cannot judge just based on this experience. You will have more distortion on most class a b amps, can a distortion give you a live sound?

Heard mnay even at demo shops, not my thing, the sound is flat and monotone.

sorry u disagree!

Hi All, I'll need to spend a bit of time digesting all your posts but thanks a lot for the insightful replies!

To be clear indeed I was talking about two S500 stereo amplifiers and not the monoblocks. It is also not so much a seller trying to push these on me, but me trying to buy something second hand. The seller itself cannot even part with them yet as he himself is also sourcing for some new parts first, so there luckily is no haste involved on that front! Sadly the person lives a country away and Red Dragon is not really present here in Europe it seems so demoing is not an option (Which I understand is a risk).


Tim, thanks for your detailed reply! Regarding my room. It is a living room with an open kitchen. 7.5x5.5m with one side of the 7.5M being all windowed. Floors are tiles so there are a lot of hard surfaces. As this is the living room, conditioning the room is out of the question, so I am thinking of trying to solve this with room correction such as Diriac (I am afraid that these words in combination with Class-D will only anger some people even more :-) ) In my circle of friends I only have one person who is a music fanatic and indeed I am planning to spend some time listening to his setup. I also have an appointment with our local hifi shop soon.

The AVR was bought at some point as I was connecting a lot of things to my TV but in reality I just have (and only want) 2.0 or 2.1 depending whether my next set of speakers will be monitors or not. I am a big movie buff but I do not care for surround sound at all and rarely watch action-y movies where this plays a big role. Between audio/video lately we've gone to 65/35 split audio/video I would say. Music wise I am still refining my tastes but I listen to a lot of (prog-) rock and some jazz. Classical would really be every once in a blue moon and then there's a plethora of other genres we listen to every once in a while (from salsa to hiphop).

Regarding to what exactly I want to improve: I cannot call myself an audiophile yet at all, but if I would describe what I find lacking it's that the sound does not really seem to envelop you. I can put my set louder but it does not have *presence*  in my room I guess, it will just be more sound. I have difficulty expressing whether I find my set sounding cold or warm, alive or not as I think I lack the experience to compare it with anything else.

I had the PS Audio preamp and M 700s. The amps were far superior to the pre, which lacked umph and color, which should be remedied with a beefy outboard PS, like Audio Alchemy's PS 5 did when I added it to my DDP-1

I replaced them with Ric Schultz EVS 1200 (dual mono), which sounds fantastic, but is a large chassis component

I owned a Audio Alchemy DPA-1, stereo amp, which is quite small and may well be what you’re looking for sound-wise, Probably can be bought for < $900

I never heard NuForce, but they appear to be much smaller chassis

I just ordered the newly released Legacy I*V 5 Amplifier yesterday. It's what they have been working on for seven years with this "Ice" technology. There're  sold out, as the first batch sold faster than they thought. Shipment is mid February.I am replacing my 300 watt ATI 6005 Signature series. Kind of glad to get rid of that 140 lb monster. I had to move it twice, I was learning to hate it. I have all Legacy, Focus Se’s, Marquis Center, Phantom Surrounds, and I wanted to try this 600 watt unit and see. Hope I didn’t make a mistake. But, you don’t know if you don’t try , right?

You may not be disappointing. The design is nice. 
Take into account that Class D wattage is not the same, you may have about the same power as with your ATI (tube 50 watts \approx class ab 
100 watts \approx class D 200 watts). 

I'm hoping it has warmth. I'm not a bright fan of any sort. I've been told the ATI's were a little on the bright side. Some say neutral. I don't want to go backwards on my taste.Fingers crossed .     

I use a Lyngdorf SDA2175 class D amplifier which, coupled with a PrimaLuna Prologue 3 preamp, pilot of the Scansonic MB2.5B. The result is excellent

I am extra happy with my EVS 1200; dual mono IcePower 600 modules plus lots of intelligent tweaks from Ric Schultz TweakAudio

nitrobob,
I can’t speak from personal audition, but will just summarize what tweak1 heard and posted. His EVS 1200 is not warm, but detailed and neutral. It is a tweaked version of the IceEdge. The Legacy is likely to sound neutral, although degrees of warmth are up for debate.  Since the ATI 6005 is reportedly neutral, let us know how the tonal character of the Legacy compares to the ATI. Tweak1 had the Audio Alchemy DPA1, which was warm compared to the EVS 1200. He was considering the DPA2, a more powerful version.