Re: Sunray, I think of it as a great buying opportunity for some! If living in the States, I would have already grabbed them at those silly good prices offered. Not so much gold with my Stradivari as well in the past, when rrp was 40'ish, I bought new--discounted for 26k, and not so much later upon re-selling (locally) only got 17k for them. Not to mention the loses I suffered from my later two Magicos (bought new as well). So I guess buying used quality products from Agon is the way to go when opportunity as these arises. Its pretty much similar and applicable for most other brands. Also, I think the more massive/heavy the speakers are, the more they tend to be discounted--more shipping, logistics issues involved--as have already been mentioned.
What surprises me more though is that there's still no takers within the area despite the Ads going on for quite sometime now.
Quanmer, Congrats on your Contriva purchase! Please keep updating your newfound experiences, and post the system in virtual listing if possible.
Cheers! |
Bvdiman, paying 65% of MRSP for Stradivari seems like a good deal & to get back 60% of purchase price is pretty decent. I do agreed Sunray at 69k pre owned seems like a good buy . It certainly indicate that the original price is way too high. Wondering why some manufacturer price their products so high , give dealer 50-60% margin , only to have dealers discount it by 20-30% to sell their products . Wouldn't it make better sense to start at a lower MRSP? Wouldn't that attract more buyers? I was recommended Tidal Diacera SE at MRSP of abt USD69 which is what Wilson Maxx3 . Without opportunity to compare I would certainly go for Wilson Maxx 3 for the simple reason it's easier to dispose a well known brand and at a higher price as well. |
Tbg, thanks for advises. can you elaborate more about how Stiipoint SS improve sound of SE? And where I can buy them at reasonable price?
My SE is a demo pair, AAudio told me it has 300 hrs already, all I have to do is set-in. |
You can check out my StereoTimes review and see a picture of them under the Contrivas.
They are pricy. I know of several dealers, but don't know about any discounts. You would need eight of them. |
tbg..i have had my 'shorting plugs' and the 'port plugs' in from the outset...what difference do you notice without them ...?..i will have to go home and try it without and see.i can't believe the sound could get better but i will see..thanks for the info..dave...'calloway' |
quanmer...i can second the improvement the stillpoints ultra ss make..i,too, tried them after seeing tbg's review in 'stereotimes' and love what they do..there is much better detail and transient response.bass seems to be better also. |
Calloway, both the shorting wires and the port plugs are to deal with some rooms. I tried both but have a large room so YMMV, but by all means try removing them. |
Tbg and Calloway, I tried different combination, shorting wires don't stay, but port plugs does make my bass tighter, I keep them in. Maybe after I put Stillpoints SS feet, I will try them again.
Tbg, do I have to order optional threaded adapters for Contriva? |
Quanmer, yes, you need M8s to go into the Contrivas and 1/4" 20s for the Ultras. StillPoints has them. There are many threaded holes on the bottom of the Contrivas. I used those closest to the corners of the speakers. I don't know whether it makes any difference, but it gives the widest stance for greatest stability. Of course, you need to take the Tidal provided stand off. There is a centered threader hole in the back of the speakers so you could save some money putting three Ultras under each speaker. I was told, however, that four sounds better. I have tried this under my amp. Four do sound better than three. I have a real clue as to why-greater isolation I guess.
I don't know whether StillPoints has representation in Taiwan. |
You should wait the burn in period until the sound of your speaker settles down, cause it is going to change quite a bit and then do the tweaking you are thinking about!
IMHO |
It's the second day with Contriva Diacera SE, they are full of surprise!!
They are very sensitive to positioning, I make a bigger toe-in, around 15 degree today, sound image becomes much better. And I take one inch apart to each end, WOW, I couldn't believe the transformation!!! Only one inch, sound stage is way much wider and brighter.
My friend who has Marten Design Coltrane, thought they would sound similar since both use Accuton units, after he heard Contriva, he told me "no, it is completely different" Contriva is very full in mid-range, the density is close to ATC kind of level. Coltrane is in different school of sounding, clean and airy, I will go to his house to hear them again by myself.
To me, I always miss the mid-range of ATC, but they are difficult to deal with in some aspects. But the mid-range of ATC melt me in if the recording quality is right. Contriva bring me the level of mid-range density again, with more balanced way. ATC is more like studio monitor type of speaker, direct and accurate, but make me fatigue to digest for long hours.
I still don't know how Tidal achieve this, I got all information from the music, very detailed, but the music just flow out nicely, even in high volume, I can still feel calm and comfortable, I can talk to someone without shouting. Not like my all previous speakers. So far, this is the most respectable achievement to me on Tidal/ Contriva.
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Quanmer, I am concerned about where you are attempting to install the shorting wires. They do not go between the binding posts!!! You will see two small holes below the binding posts. You would short your amp were you to put them across the binding posts. |
Calloway, with mine I prefer :
Tweeter shorting wires 'attached' : For highest resolution with this full open treble setting. Maximizing on the diamond tweeters.
Bass ports 'both unplugged' : Although bass not as extended nor as tightly controlled (fell a little short) as when plugged, it produces a slight boost in output at around 30-35Hz which helps to pressurize bigger rooms. Slightly airier and fuller sounding this way too.
*Plugs ON top ports : Most linear and deepest bass, sealed-box like response, but the feeling of effortlessness in the mid and high could at times feel a tad restrained.
*Plugs ON lower ports : Sounded somewhere in between the two above with more articulate midbass.
*Tweeter shorting wires un-attached : Attenuate tweeter output by 2db, easier listening at some expense in transparency and resolution. Helps tame if you have excessive brightness in system.
As to which set of combinations ultimately work best for one would largely be room and system dependent. But certainly nice tools to have being able to tailor and fine tune sound to our room and liking. |
Bvdiman, personally I think the shorting wires rob the realism that caused me to buy the Tidals. I must say also that I use a Zu Method super fast subwoofer with my system along with a Synergistic Research Base Station in front of it as well as the two Contrivas. This made the bass the best I have ever heard, at least in my large room.
I know full well that these adjustments are provided to adjust to individual rooms and that personal experiences cannot really be shared. |
I went to audit Marten Coltrane today, my friend is right, Coltrane and Contriva are two completely different animals even they use similar Accuton units and diamond tweeter. And they are in same price range. Physically, Coltrane is much smaller than Contriva, about 2/3 the size.
My friend use ASR Emitter I integrated amp for Coltrane, I heard Emitter once with other speakers, I don't know how much the electronics affect the sound, what I heard base on the combination, Coltrane is vivd, airy, EXCELLENT image. Contriva has been discuss enough in this thread, high density, a bit conservative in treble, yet all details are there, in its own understated way to interpret musician / singers' elaborations. Maybe sacrifice a bit of pinpointing capability.
If you asked me which one I would choose, haha , you know the answer, Coltrane is an amazing speaker, but it lacks some qualities I considered the most important -- involvement, maybe ASR is not a proper match to Coltrane, or maybe wires are not right, violin sounds awful and piano sounds artificial to me. The vocal and soundstage are defiantly in very high class category, but something is missing,,,..intimacy, yes, it is the word I want to use. |
Quanmer, the diamond tweeters are supposed to be wonderfully extended with glorious air and decay. Try attaching the tweeter shorting wires, it will give you back the -2dB taken when un-installed. The highs of Contriva is not what I would describe as conservative, and in doing so, will also help image specificity. See how you go. Good luck. |
Bvdiman, I attached them, but I felt the same way as Tbg, I prefer unattached sound better. |
Quanmer, Tbg, in what ways do you guys find them better? Strange.. Could be the different crossover units used in our speakers. With mine, it's definitely better attached. Much improved extension in most smooth and refined manners. |
Bvdiman, I guess many factors come to play the better or not issue, room spaces, electronics, wire and cords, positioning, accessories like feet, etc.,
To me, attaching jumpers make sound more noisy, treble is rougher, mid range is leaner, body and weight is slimed, my room is big, but the listening distance is limited to 3.5 meters only, too linear sound maybe not suitable to my environment. |
Bvdiman, I just rec'd Jorn's email, he said attaching jumper is good for well damper space, for house with some reflections, un-attached them is better option.
Is your room well damper? |
Tbg,have you tried Argento wires to Tidal? are they really that magical? I currently have Tara Labs, should I give Argento a try or not? |
quanmer..calloway here. i use all 'argento' cables and, to my ears, they are superb...i am in the process of gradually upgrading all to the fmr versions. i have 3 fmr pcs and 2 flow pcs...the rest are smr speaker and i/cs..they are a great match for the tidals...i like them because as you go up the chain nothing changes..just everything they do well..and that is alot...just gets better...sorry for jumping in ahead of tbg... |
Quanmer, I really have little experience on the Argento cables, having only heard them only at CES.
I have extensive experience with the top Synergistic Research and now the Exemplar Portals. So unless you have heard these, I have little to add to this. I certainly thought that at the last CES on Sunday, the Sunrays sounded excellent. I don't believe that the Argentos are charged, as such I would not really be interested as I have found charged cables far superior, even in my low RFI environment. |
Calloway, what's the difference you can tell from FMR to Flow? Have you heard Tara Labs The Zero IC or Cobalt PC before? |
For all Tidal owners that are not using Argento cables...
Guys you don't know what you are missing... |
Bvdiman, I tried to remove some reflective materials and add some damper, now I am training my ear to wire plugged sound, with classical music,.....um, I can live with it.
I may jump to your camp soon, sorry, Tbg. |
quanmer...the fmr is more detailed..better bass and transient response...more transparent than the flow...both are superb but the fmr IS better..but not different...i have not heard the tara cables or cobalt cables..sorry... |
Quanmer, don't jump to conclusion just yet. :p Don't rush things, do it slowly and enjoy while at it. Let your speakers and ears do some settling-in and adjustment first also. I spent almost two full weeks carefully learning, then only decide, as to which set of combo works best for me.
Out of curiosity, a double check, and just for the fun of it, I took my tweeter jumpers off again this afternoon. I had to plug it back in only after three songs, imo, simply too much detail and air missing. But yes, I do sit quite a fair bit further away (about 5m measured from drivers). And most bad reflections in the room are well tamed.. Well, at least I'd like to think so. ;)
Have fun in your quest! |
I've got a question to the Tidal owners on a good cable match for my Sunray.
On audio shows Argento gets used a lot, but for sure there are other excellent cables as well. Unfortunately due to my current location I don't have access to various brands in order to try in my set so I purely have to decide based on other users experiences.
Has anyone ever compared the Argento FMR cables with eg. Jorma Prime, Siltech and/or Nordost Odin cables? Or maybe another brand.
I would very much appreciate your comments and maybe explain the difference in sound between those cables.
Many thanks |
Maxx1973, I suggest you to put Tara Labs top tier wire into your list, they are describe as "jaw dropping" product.
I had Nordost Valhalla in my system before, never try Odin, once I try Tara Labs, all Nordost can't stay, not even close. The difference is almost night and day. Valhalla is only one level lower than Odin, can you image that!
I heard many Siltech on many systems, they are quite popular in Taiwan, the top tier Siltech is OK, but still can not outperform Tara Labs. I personally think they are over priced. |
bvdiman...calloway here...i, too, put my jumpers back in last night after trying them out for a day or two..i have kept the plugs out though as i have better bass without them...i agree with your jumper findings... |
"Calloway, with mine I prefer :
-Tweeter shorting wires 'attached' : For highest resolution with this full open treble setting. Maximizing on the diamond tweeters.
-Bass ports 'both unplugged' : Although bass not as extended nor as tightly controlled (fell a little short) as when plugged, it produces a slight boost in output at around 30-35Hz which helps to pressurize bigger rooms. Slightly airier and fuller sounding this way too."
-We have the same preferred setting then. ;)
Cheers! |
A couple of questions on the Piano Cera's for those that own or have listened to them.
1. I have read that the Piano's are great with rock music but how do they handle symphonic music, i.e., Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, etc?
2. How do they image?
3. Is the bass coherent? I am more favorible to coherence versus lower octaves. Also I am a little suspicious of ported speakers.
I am looking to upgrade my speakers and these fall within my price range so any answers to my questions will be greatly appreciated. |
Bvdiman, what is the size of your room? What room treatments do you have? What Tidal speakers do you have?
I have an 18 x 26 x 11.5' room with extensive Syn. Res. ARTs treatment and the Contriva Discera SEs. As I said, I have the discontinued Zu Method subwoofer. It is crossovered and about 30 Hz and at a very low level output.
I am asking as your results are so at odds with mine. |
Tbg, room is around 5m (width) x 12m (length) x 2,9m (height). For more detail just hit 'system' under my moniker. |
Hi Maxx1973! don't take risk.. If I were you, not being able to audition any of those costly cables, I'd definitely go with Argento FMR--safest bet! Being used at most Tidal showings, as well by many Tidal owners, they must be doing something very right (synergy). Get some pc's and their sc.. If you don't like them enough--just send it over, sell it to me half price! ;))) |
Bvdiman, one of the best audition room I have ever seen, congratulation! Where are you located? USA or Europe ? |
Bostonbean...calloway here.I first heard the piano ceras' last year at the axpona show in Jacksonville.one of the stereophile reviewers came into the room and stayed for 1 hour playing most of the discs he brought with him.one he played was a Mahler symphony ......he thought it was the one of the best presentations of the piece he had ever heard.he gave the room a ' best in show award '...yes they can do classical music.I plaid some of my classical music also. They are superb.are you in Boston?....reason I ask ..doug white of ' thevoicethatis.com' is in Philadelphia...or right outside pa. He has ...I think..a pair of the piano ceras' at his home...I bought my contrivas' based on my time spent at the axpona show listening to the pianos' |
Bostonbean, I have the first production pair of Piano Ceras and live in Providence (RI). I can demonstrate them on Doug White's behalf. |
Calloway and Linkster, Thank you for your responses. And Linkster, I sent you an e-mail regarding your kind offer.
I have made arrangements to see Doug down in Philly to audition the Piano Diaceras. He does not have any Ceras for audition.
I have been looking for speakers that can play both rock and symphonic music. The Tidals may fit the bill.
I was thinking of the new Magico Q3's. I have auditioned the V2's which were wonderful on classical music but with rock they sounded, as John Potis so perfected described JM Lab speakers in the Tidal Piano speaker review, fractured. Which, in my opinion, pretty much reflects how rock music is recorded with seperate recording rooms for musicians and overly mixing. With speakers there is a fine line between detail and too much detail. I am guessing that Tidal has hit that right spot.
Also, I see that Bvdiman, who has owned or tried just about every iteration of Magico speakers has gone to Tidal. This says much to me.
My only fear is that I may end up going the the Piano Diaceras. Using the rational that if I was willing to spend $34K for the Q3's why not spend a few thousand more and get the Diacera's. |
Bostonbean, I think with the BAT Rex preamp, you can have the best of both classical music and (gulp!) rock. Put a Sovtek or EH gold pin 6H30 in the switched position within the power module. The 6C45 provides great detail, depth, and extension. The 6H30 takes away some depth and detail in favor of midrange texture and harmonies.
This is one of the biggest reasons I am sticking with BAT Rex. Rolling tubes on the fly with a switch allows one to get the best of both worlds. |
Quanmer, thank you.. Am presently residing in Indonesia, if you ever come around this way, you are welcome to visit my modest system. Could also tour you to some of friends' not so modest ones with--Sunray, top line Kharma, Wilson, Acapella, FMA Inspiration system 1 etc. That will probably keep you very busy. :)
Bostonbean, I've got a hunch if classical is your thing then you'll most likely be very happy with the Piano Diacera. Discounted, I think they could even cost less than the Q3. Magico gives very minimal discount, and ime, have poor resale value. I now tend to prefer brands with longer lifespan--Tidal, FMA, Soulution, Avalon, TAD to name a few, at least they keep their owners less fidgety. Anyway, try auditioning both and do update your impressions. Good luck. |
"...and (gulp!) rock."
Yes Rtn1, I am a long way from being a young man but I do like rock. Actually what is call Adult Rock which is probably a euphemism for old peoples rock. Wilco, Dave Matthews Band, Mark Knopfler, etc.
Yes, I went to the 6H30 in the switched position in my BAT REX a long time ago. I am a source guy believing that you can make what some would call ordinary speakers sound fantastic with very good electronics on the front end. But speakers do matter. I currently have Gallo 3.5's which I believe are fantastic speakers that do everything very well. Their only shortcoming imo is their height which when listening to symphonic music puts me in row AA when I want to be sitting in row M. I can alleviate that shortcoming somewhat by really cranking them up but that is not what I want to do all the time.
I like the Gallo's so much in comparison to other speakers I have listened to costing 2 or 3 times as much (no snickering) that I have decided that I need to go way up the speaker ladder to get the significant improvements for which I am looking. I hope the Tidal Piano's are those speakers.
Bvdiman, I will certainly post my impressions after listening to the Piano's. |
Bvdiman, haha, Sunray is very difficult to find in Taiwan, my friend who owns the Marten Coltrane, after he listened my Tidal, he is considering to buy Sunray. He heard one guy has them, but the owner is on business trip, so he can't get an audition appointment now.
Maybe we should organize an audiophile tour to visit Indonesia. I am sure there are many not so "modest" systems over there :) Among those systems you and your friends owned, how do you rate your system especially Tidal vs others?
Could you compare Magico speakers in general, one AudiogoNer asked me via email, but I have only limited experience to answer this question. |
Yesterday I had the opportunity to listen to the focal utopia maesrto ........
Great speakers for you ........ what could be in the contrivas
more of the focal maerstro??
Hello. |
ciro71, iagree with you . the new focal utopia3 line is just amazing. they made such imprvoments over the prior models, almost totally new sepaekr. if you are considering a new speakers, anyone should listen to the mastero, scalla, stella or the grand, depends on budget and room.comparing to tidal speakers,i prefer the focal, no questions. |
Quanmer, sorry can't comment much on friends' rigs (or else i'll be shown doors the next time I visit ;p), except to say that two of my favorite set-ups are *using Tidal speakers, and the other, *full FMA system.
As to your latter question, I will simplify here in order to convey just its essence. At most times during my listening sessions, the Magicos had me transfixed in seat subconsciously analyzing music/recordings (impressive in audiophile sense). Whereas, the Tidal let me sit back, relax and devour them (immersive in music lover ways). Both could be great, depending on moods. |
Sorry if I insist ....... but I know that differences found between the
contrivas and focal maestro?
Hello everyone. |
Ciro71 with the right associated equipment Tidals Sound pretty much like "nothing at all"! To my ears the Maestros sound artificially "thicker" in all regions! Tidals sound more elegant, less distorted I don't know how else to explain!
Happy Listening,
Mike |
Ciro71, "what could be in the contrivas
more of the focal maerstro"?
Tidal is like Bvdiman said : immersive in music lover ways. Many speakers can give you WOW factor when you first time listen to them, but Tidal is musically superior than most speakers I have ever heard. Don't get me wrong, Tidal provides very high micro detail as well, not "blur" type of musical. Yet it can present the music in gentle and poised way.
It is hard to describe, it's better you can hear by yourself. You can spend only one minute to feel immediate "suck in" music feeling by Tidal. Other than that, it depends on everyone's taste of sonic signature. |
