Kw13 re your second audition,
06-27-10:
"Went back for second audition. This time Contriva not as impressive. The stand out vacal in first audition a few weeks ago was gone. Still very enjoyable but not much more special than any other high end pair. Dealer said he had optimized speaker position. More suited to classical music."
Just a thought - Seems to me here that the dealer might have moved the speakers a tad too far apart in hoping to achieve more 'grandness' (to capture better/larger orchestral presentation/scale). However, at the cost of sacrificing some center image fill, hence, loosing that sense of vocal immediacy and illuminated palpability you experienced during your first. |
Tbg, if you have never installed the factory original feet, how would you then know that the StillPoints are superior? |
I think it was Focal Scala that Kw13 was comparing to. |
I think Kclone and Argyro are just telling it like it is.. Both simply describing the sound of different drivers technology incorporated into each their Pianos.
My raw assumption here is that ceramics to provide the superior inner/micro detailing, thus in most cases, would also perform better at lower volume listening. |
Yes, I agree--sum of parts do make the whole. However, I'd still stick to my earlier comment that basic difference of above outcome lies mainly in the differing driver materials used--even if comparison is presumably made using the exact same gears and cabling. |
Hi Mike, mine are toed-in less, around 20 degrees. But I sit quite far, around 4.80m away, so the intersecting just behind head sounds about right in many cases. The speakers sit 2.35m apart (measured from center of drivers), 0.95m from side walls and 1.95m from rear wall (to back of speakers). I focus first in getting the best tonal density and mid bass definition, the soundstaging part then fall into place nicely with them totally disappearing.
Re the perpendicular 'location' as mentioned in the manual, my understanding is that it's meant to suggest best for both speakers to sit at equal distances (perpendicular line) to back wall rather than the perpendicularity (toe-in) of the speaker's cabinet 'position' itself. |
Ciro71,
Since you posted here, you should have already very well guessed what the unanimous recommendation would be? ;)
Anyway, in a room your size, I'd imagine that the Contriva would be a perfect fit. My room is similar in size, about 60m2 (approx.5m x 12m), and it gets filled-up pretty nice and easy.
Amongst your list of speakers, it really boils down to your set of preference--tastes and biases, but in the transparency dept. (yes, esp.mid to high), I would rank the Tidal CD to be at/near the top of that list.
And as to synergy with Vitus gears, hearsay that that's another winning combination as well. Maybe our friend Maxx1973 can chime in more on that.
Goodluck |
Re: Sunray, I think of it as a great buying opportunity for some! If living in the States, I would have already grabbed them at those silly good prices offered. Not so much gold with my Stradivari as well in the past, when rrp was 40'ish, I bought new--discounted for 26k, and not so much later upon re-selling (locally) only got 17k for them. Not to mention the loses I suffered from my later two Magicos (bought new as well). So I guess buying used quality products from Agon is the way to go when opportunity as these arises. Its pretty much similar and applicable for most other brands. Also, I think the more massive/heavy the speakers are, the more they tend to be discounted--more shipping, logistics issues involved--as have already been mentioned.
What surprises me more though is that there's still no takers within the area despite the Ads going on for quite sometime now.
Quanmer, Congrats on your Contriva purchase! Please keep updating your newfound experiences, and post the system in virtual listing if possible.
Cheers! |
Quanmer, don't jump to conclusion just yet. :p Don't rush things, do it slowly and enjoy while at it. Let your speakers and ears do some settling-in and adjustment first also. I spent almost two full weeks carefully learning, then only decide, as to which set of combo works best for me.
Out of curiosity, a double check, and just for the fun of it, I took my tweeter jumpers off again this afternoon. I had to plug it back in only after three songs, imo, simply too much detail and air missing. But yes, I do sit quite a fair bit further away (about 5m measured from drivers). And most bad reflections in the room are well tamed.. Well, at least I'd like to think so. ;)
Have fun in your quest! |
Calloway, with mine I prefer :
Tweeter shorting wires 'attached' : For highest resolution with this full open treble setting. Maximizing on the diamond tweeters.
Bass ports 'both unplugged' : Although bass not as extended nor as tightly controlled (fell a little short) as when plugged, it produces a slight boost in output at around 30-35Hz which helps to pressurize bigger rooms. Slightly airier and fuller sounding this way too.
*Plugs ON top ports : Most linear and deepest bass, sealed-box like response, but the feeling of effortlessness in the mid and high could at times feel a tad restrained.
*Plugs ON lower ports : Sounded somewhere in between the two above with more articulate midbass.
*Tweeter shorting wires un-attached : Attenuate tweeter output by 2db, easier listening at some expense in transparency and resolution. Helps tame if you have excessive brightness in system.
As to which set of combinations ultimately work best for one would largely be room and system dependent. But certainly nice tools to have being able to tailor and fine tune sound to our room and liking. |
Quanmer, the diamond tweeters are supposed to be wonderfully extended with glorious air and decay. Try attaching the tweeter shorting wires, it will give you back the -2dB taken when un-installed. The highs of Contriva is not what I would describe as conservative, and in doing so, will also help image specificity. See how you go. Good luck. |
Quanmer, Tbg, in what ways do you guys find them better? Strange.. Could be the different crossover units used in our speakers. With mine, it's definitely better attached. Much improved extension in most smooth and refined manners. |
"Calloway, with mine I prefer :
-Tweeter shorting wires 'attached' : For highest resolution with this full open treble setting. Maximizing on the diamond tweeters.
-Bass ports 'both unplugged' : Although bass not as extended nor as tightly controlled (fell a little short) as when plugged, it produces a slight boost in output at around 30-35Hz which helps to pressurize bigger rooms. Slightly airier and fuller sounding this way too."
-We have the same preferred setting then. ;)
Cheers! |
Tbg, room is around 5m (width) x 12m (length) x 2,9m (height). For more detail just hit 'system' under my moniker. |
Hi Maxx1973! don't take risk.. If I were you, not being able to audition any of those costly cables, I'd definitely go with Argento FMR--safest bet! Being used at most Tidal showings, as well by many Tidal owners, they must be doing something very right (synergy). Get some pc's and their sc.. If you don't like them enough--just send it over, sell it to me half price! ;))) |
Quanmer, thank you.. Am presently residing in Indonesia, if you ever come around this way, you are welcome to visit my modest system. Could also tour you to some of friends' not so modest ones with--Sunray, top line Kharma, Wilson, Acapella, FMA Inspiration system 1 etc. That will probably keep you very busy. :)
Bostonbean, I've got a hunch if classical is your thing then you'll most likely be very happy with the Piano Diacera. Discounted, I think they could even cost less than the Q3. Magico gives very minimal discount, and ime, have poor resale value. I now tend to prefer brands with longer lifespan--Tidal, FMA, Soulution, Avalon, TAD to name a few, at least they keep their owners less fidgety. Anyway, try auditioning both and do update your impressions. Good luck. |
Quanmer, sorry can't comment much on friends' rigs (or else i'll be shown doors the next time I visit ;p), except to say that two of my favorite set-ups are *using Tidal speakers, and the other, *full FMA system.
As to your latter question, I will simplify here in order to convey just its essence. At most times during my listening sessions, the Magicos had me transfixed in seat subconsciously analyzing music/recordings (impressive in audiophile sense). Whereas, the Tidal let me sit back, relax and devour them (immersive in music lover ways). Both could be great, depending on moods. |
Appreciate your chiming in Jorn, and well summarized Holenneck. It's getting a bit tiresome and a little long winded on this basically simple subject. |
Of course there should be that remaining 5-10% in the R&D process whereby final/fine tuning by ears often/do play an equally crucial role (subjective). But as repeatedly stated, good standard sets of measurement criteria have to be met first (objective). I'd be wary if a designer chose to design their products the other way around. |
Focalfan, I for one appreciate Jorn taking his time chiming in sharing his insight and experiences with Tidal users, after all, it is what this thread is about, thus appropriate. Curiously though, out of your few posts here at Gon, I noticed mostly were attacks on Tidal, you seem to have something going against them. |
I have one little problem with Tidal. While I used to be able to listen to music for almost everyday in the past, I have to try restrict myself to weekend only sessions now. It is so very very hard for me to tear away from them once they started singing! Thus, one listening session could easily cost me 'at least' 6-8hrs straight (no joke!), of which I cannot yet afford to do during the weekdays at the moment. Is this a common problem with other users? Well I guess it is a good problem, but it still 'is' a problem--not hype. :p |
Quanmer, yes I too think it's George Benson, love that song too! Maybe Calloway can chime in here for title and album. Got more than ten albums of Benson but can't yet locate that piece. Pretty sure that it is his system still with old amp.
Calloway, great posting in Youtube btw, it even sounded alive through my computer--and sure is an inspirational clip for would be Tidalist. What did you use to record with? Please do another with your new amp! ;) |
Below is an e-mail excerpt from Jörn which may help clarify query no.2 above.
I would also add that there are a couple more of 'nice little touches' as per their specs (beside drivers) differentiating the TT designation.
____________________________________________________________
"There will be no price increase at all to the TIDAL models,
Contriva / Contriva Diacera in particular since the drivers are not much
more expensive. The Sunray long excursion woofers with their short coil-long
gap design are much more expensive compared to the other drivers we build
into all other speakers we have, this was also why the TT was pretty
dramatic higher in price as well."
With best regards from Germany,
Jörn Janczak
CEO
TIDAL Audio GmbH |
Congrats Bostonbean!
Let it run a bit, mine still continue to improve even after six months.. Around 600hrs. The sound became fuller yet tighter, improved resolution yet more relaxed at the same time.. Amazing!
Enjoy yours, |
Bostonbean,
I was seriously holding my breath, crossing fingers with sincere hope (knowing taste, mileage etc.could vary) that you will 'get it' too! You got me momentarily worried there held as being partly responsible with the choice. :p
Yes, I recalled we had a couple of nice exchanges in the past when I still had my Magico Mini2/V3. At that time, we were both lurking around at some M5 thread?! ;))
Anyway, really glad that you got along great with initial impressions. That had at least gotten some burden off me now.. 'pheww'.. ;p You expressed it very well, awaiting more from you.
In the meantime, if you have the time and/or inclination, please do share your wonderful set-up plus some pics here with us.
Most importantly, enjoy! |
Audioblazer, the Contriva review in Audiobeat used Audio Research Ref.110, and Lamm M1.2 Ref.monos. Both put out around same 110watts into 8/4ohms--I think.. |
Hi Ojdeteos,
Yes, its a little obscure how the reviewer puts it ;) but my understanding is..
"Tidal is unusual in that it manufactures electronics as well as speakers. Perhaps for this reason, the Sunray can be configured a number of ways, including with its active external crossover and extra channels of amplification."
< Can be configured as you wish--basic, passive bi-amp (internal crossover), OR active bi-amp utilizing Tidal's LPX (external crossover) plus additional amp/s--but of which I believe is available separately at extra cost.
"The crossover isn't necessary for using the speakers, but it comes with them nonetheless."
< I think its the internal passive crossover that the reviewer made mention of here, and that it could be by-passed when driven in basic full range mode w/single stereo or mono amps. |
Ojdeteos,
Must be new policy that Sunray purchases now inclusive LPX unit? If so, I think they will throw in the LPX too for brand new Sunray purchases from 'anywhere'--to be fair--I believe Tidal guys are. It was a separate option when I inquired about them late last year. Maybe Jorn/Tidal can help clarify things a little here. |
Congrats!! Waiting for the invite..
Post system in virtual listing when ready.
What a way to end the year.. Enjoy! ;) |
Focalfan,
There was a mint pair of latest Focal Grand Utopia EM for sale here couple of weeks ago which I'm sure many noticed. A 180k speaker offered for 50k must be some great speakers? Well if not, at least a great buy. If in my country, at that price, I'd probably give them a go--although doubtful that it would play nice in my smallish room.
As Ojdeteos said, even your today's best will get replaced eventually. I've heard many 100-200k+ speakers, few stood out, but none best, just different--hence choices. Your relentlessly thrashing one brand in particular is just beyond me. Try to enjoy more your wonderful speaker/set-up instead. If the music is serve right, beautiful and engrossing enough, I doubt that you'd have the time to be distraught with other people's choices, like or dislike anymore.
OR, maybe you could even share/post your system here virtually to enlighten/educate us on what constitute/how to properly assemble a truly sota system? |
Photon46,
Congrats! Enjoy the journey.. Properly dialed-in, pretty sure you will love them.
Johngp,
If anywhere near, I'd myself jump on Calloway's gracious offer. Certainly worth a trip to listen to his beautiful set-up. |
Link to Piano Diacera+Extender video from Munich Show. Plus few of the new Agoria there. Thanks to Georgemg and Matrixsystem who uploaded them--very nice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn_P8S15GWU&feature=endscreen&NR=1 |
Quote :"the cable price is very resonable at $1600/1m and $1800/1.5m.this cable truly is the 'poster child' for more is not necessarily better."
I'd say same thing of the FM Acoustics PIT (Precision Interface Technology) ICs. Very unassuming looking, thin (almost stringlike), highly flexible cable priced around similar bracket. Think it was $2300 for the 1.5m/pair XLR. They are no tone control, just one very honest and musically un-impeding signal carrier. One of the most natural sounding, least signature, and neutrally balanced cable I've yet tried in my system plus few others', including those using previous top line ICs from Nordost, Shunyata, Kimber, Synergistic, Siltech. I'd say though that their PIT ICs are more universal, whilst the Forceline SCs seem to work best on proprietary Forceplugs with their amps.
In current world of stratospherically priced esoteric cables, its always refreshing to share findings as these. |
"10-13-12: Bostonbean
Jotave2010 and Georgemg, Impressive gear driving your respective Pianos. Looking forward to your future posts as your Pianos evolve. I believe we all would very much like to see photos of your rigs."
+1 and congrats!
Had mine (Contriva) close to two years now.. Still looking forward to each and every listening sessions. |
A highly musical Piano Diacera set-up, imo. Hope Georgemg don't mind us sharing it here.
Prove that it doesn't have to be Tidal everything to make it work.. Well perhaps if a dealer I'd too say otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbRj_t-Juqo |
Personally, I'd rather keep things nice and simple..
Want/need more bass, simply get bigger models up. When you hit ceiling with flagship pair, and found them insufficient still, I'd be looking at other viable options. Four tower solution just not for me. |
Jotave, yes I have watched both numerous times.. though (in the dark) always thought that it was same set-up playing different tunes. Both excellent! Thanks for info.
Now where's yours? Must be just as superb.. do post and share when you have the time. |
Oh no, thought I was done with my Contriva, never interested in switching to other speakers going on 5yrs now.. (how time flies), not even the Agoria nor the G2 moved me enough. But hearing that Assoluta's diamond mid will make way to their more manageable sized speakers will probably change that. Curious on details of that one as I prefer more friendly sized speakers over huge monolith/towering types.. Cheaper too! ;)
http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htm
*However my room at around 60m2 will be at/near limit of that speaker's filling capacity. Hmm... |
