I have some Nola Boxers that sound awesome but some of my favorite music has some fairly deep synthesized bass. At times, I hear the driver distorting and 'doubling over' is that the term?
So, my local high-end shop sells REL subs and I like the idea. I've been thinking of the T-7 or the R-218...
Advise would be great. I have McIntosh MC-60 amps and an Audio Research LS-3...and use an NAD CD player.
01-15-14: Kennythekey I agree with Karl_desch, so upgrade your speakers if you must improve your bass. There's a reason you must spend considerable bucks for a true full range. As Karl put it, "coherent balanced sound." Adding a sub may give you the low frequency you crave, but you may not get a perfectly smooth sound.
Going full range "may not get a perfectly smooth sound" either, especially if you're trying to get that balance of smooth extended bass *and* optimum dispersion, soundstage, and imaging.
At least with a sub you can do several things about integrating the bass with optimally placed monitors--change the subs' gain level, change the crossover frequency, high-pass the mains or not, change the phase, and change the location. Sure, that's a lot of potential adjusting, but it also allows several bass integration options that are not possible with full-range speakers.
I agree with Karl_desch, so upgrade your speakers if you must improve your bass. There's a reason you must spend considerable bucks for a true full range. As Karl put it, "coherent balanced sound." Adding a sub may give you the low frequency you crave, but you may not get a perfectly smooth sound. If you can still find a high-end dealer with a store out there, try listening to a quality restricted LF speaker with a sub, and then listen to that brands full range entry as a comparison.
"Low Bass doesn't care about its distribution in your room as it goes where it wants, so a single sub can work very well in all but the largest rooms."
Respectfully disagree, especially for music. Low bass might not care, but your room sure does as do your ears. All else equal two subs pressure the room more evenly and can better help even out peaks/valleys within the room (3 or 4 subs even moreso). And two subs will obviously be working a lot less hard than one. Then there's also the prospect for stereo bass, but let's not go there here. Suffice it to say I'd take two good subs over one very good sub all day if that's all the budget will allow.
Low Bass doesn't care about its distribution in your room as it goes where it wants, so a single sub can work very well in all but the largest rooms. Just move it around until it sounds right at your Sweet Spot. REL's idea of leaving your mains alone (high level input) simplifies things and keeps another thing out of the signal path to take advantage of your amp's tone, which is a good idea that actually works. Also, dealer opinions notwithstanding, RELs are great sounding and reliable...the models differ of course, but you can get great results from lots of 'em (I bought a used Q150e and it's better than a smaller new one I've listened to), and you can simply pay attention to the level setting to avoid using digital compression/limiting devices which are often unnecessary.
I also like the SVS SB2000 sub recommendation, although I'd definitely go for two subs since this is a music-based system and bass will be more evenly distributed throughout your room. SVS runs a deal on dual subs, and you can get two SB2000s for $100 less than one REL R218, and the SB2000s go down to 19Hz (-3dB) and have a more powerful amp -- probably a lot better for your synth bass stuff among other things (much better than Contenders too). And SVS offers a 45-day no-risk in-home trial. Absolute no brainer IMHO.
No matter what sub(s) you get if you go that route, you'll need to get some kind of integration software/device. I believe Velodyne still offers a decent unit that's not too pricey and can at least get you in the ballpark, or maybe even better a DSSpeaker unit that may be possible to buy used? I think pairing the SVS subs with your Boxers and integrating them properly would be a revelation. Keep us posted and best of luck.
If you do go the route of subs look into the new JL's (I've not heard them yet but do use the F113). I used to use REL's and had many, many issues so my recomendation is to stay away from REL. Just my 2 cents worth.
I seem to change my outlook and oppinions about all this audio shtuff quite a bit. I was on the "just buy towers" kick once I got my kef xq5's and they did everything well, at least for me and in my rig. Then I had to sell them and my new speakers don't have much bass but the midrange and highs are great (subwoofer, here I come).
Johnny makes a great point that has never even crossed my mind "you won't be adding cabinet noise to your mains" and he's definately right when he said "the bass [will] be stronger, more dynamic, and more extended than what the Contender can offer [with a good sub]".
Also, you can place your boxers where they image best, and not have to worry about bass response from the boxers because your sub will pick that up.
My issue with a sub is that I couldn't get it to integrate with my monitors like I've heard it done at shows. I'm going with 2 subs next time to see if I have better results.
By the way, 2 years ago at RMAF, I heard one of the best sounding systems I've heard, even until this day, and it was in a small room with a pair of Nola Boxers and Rel (T5?) subs. The front end gear was top notch, as was the set-up including trick room treatments. Did anyone else hear this room?
Nola says the Contender extends down to 25hz. I'm not up on the technical jargon but that seems like it would be low enough?
I just checked the Nola website and it claims a frequency response of 35 Hz -28 Khz for the Boxers. No tolerances are given, so that 35 Hz could be 10-20 dB down from the output at 1 KHz. The speakers could also have been positioned for maximum room gain irrespective of imaging and clarity of the rest of the audio spectrum. In speakers the two most often told lies are probably claimed specs for sensitivity and bass extension. Read the Stereophile review I provided the link for. The response curve is there to see. The bass is down -33 dB at 25 Hz, and -18dB at 35 Hz. It may be that with the right footers, a completely rigid, masonry listening room (no suspended wood floors), and the speakers positioned for maximum room gain, that you might be able to *hear* 35 Hz but definitely not 25, and neither of these diminished levels at those frequencies would begin to compare to the linear bass frequency extension offered by either of the subwoofers Bob and I mentioned.
BTW, in response to your subject line, *everybody* needs a sub (preferably two).
That's great news about the SVS SB-2000. I wasn't sure if it high-passed to the main amp, but the user guide indicates that the line out high passes at 80 Hz. That would give the Boxers lots of breathing room. Everything below the botom string of a guitar would be handled by the sub.
The larger speakers will allow a more full frequency response that may satisfy your needs. This depends on your room, your system and your preferred lessening level. The dual sub option would more likely meet your lower frequency needs but they may be more difficult to integrate into your system for a coherent balanced sound. You may end up spending even more to get the right software fix for bass integration.
I personally would go for the larger speaker if you like the NOLA sound. Then in a year or whatever, if you are still not satisfied, think about subs again.
There's about a $1900 difference between a pair of Boxers and Contenders. You will not get the bass extension or room pressurization from the Contenders that you'd get from the right powered sub(s) for less than that.
Since you're hearing your Boxer woofers distorting, you'd benefit from a sub that can send a high-pass signal to the Boxers and unburden those little woofers from attempting deep bass excursions.
One subwoofer product line that comes to mind is the new JL Audio E-series subs. They start at $1500 MSRP for the E110, which is only down 3dB at 23 Hz. According to the Stereophile test measurements, the Contender is down 3dB at 50 Hz.
The cool thing for your situation is that the E-series panel can accept low level input from your preamp, run it through a 4th order crossover, and send the high pass signal back to the amp that powers your Boxers. This will make a significant improvement in the Boxers' clarity and dynamic range.
I can't imagine getting anywhere near this performance from the Contender. You may need to take 2-4 hours integrating the sub/sats, but it will be worth it. Not only will the bass be stronger, more dynamic, and more extended than what the Contender can offer, you won't be adding cabinet noise to your mains, which is just as significant for low level detail. I've yet to hear a floorstanding version of a monitor (except Wilson, Magico, & co.) that is as clean and resonance-free as the smaller, simpler, and more rigid 2-way monitor little brother.
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