Digital bass management compression/limiting nannys are not necessarily an advantage, they're simply designed as a "catch all" remedy for components that are badly matched to a room's acoustic properties. Of course things need to be "used properly," otherwise things are simply improper, if not tawdry. |
If a sub is made of a ball of wax, don't place it near a tube amp. |
Low Bass doesn't care about its distribution in your room as it goes where it wants, so a single sub can work very well in all but the largest rooms. Just move it around until it sounds right at your Sweet Spot. REL's idea of leaving your mains alone (high level input) simplifies things and keeps another thing out of the signal path to take advantage of your amp's tone, which is a good idea that actually works. Also, dealer opinions notwithstanding, RELs are great sounding and reliable...the models differ of course, but you can get great results from lots of 'em (I bought a used Q150e and it's better than a smaller new one I've listened to), and you can simply pay attention to the level setting to avoid using digital compression/limiting devices which are often unnecessary. |
|
The "total distortion remaining the same" idea from claustrophobic Canadians in the context of REL sub use means nothing. Zero. Does anybody listen to good speakers and say, "wow, if only I could remove the bottom octaves of distorted bad things in my full range-ish mains?" No, they do not. The people who know how to design great speakers make crossovers that take into account the mechanical frequency limitations of the design. The REL dudes know how to make subs, they SOUND great (if set up properly they don't "muddy up" anything), and blend brilliantly with main speakers because that's all they're doing...blending...not truncating or slicing off the low frequencies, but blending in a suplemental way that makes the owners of RELs happier, better adjusted, and somewhat better looking than most Canadians. Most...not all... |
I agree that when a room is overloaded with subwoofer bass energy resulting in crappy sound, the easiest solution to this issue is digital limiting. My point has always been that great sounding realistic and musical bass can be achieved with a single sub used properly, and since many think "more must be better" I understand why Taming Overkill With Digital Limiting/Compression has become popular. Every poster I've noticed advocating digital management has large, powerful, and often multiple subs that should utterly overwhelm the listening space without active limiting, which seems extreme, somewhat non musical, and unnatural...like buying a 600 hp V8 car and installing a device to disconnect 6 of the cylinders most of the time. |
I am always dismayed by the clearly humorless, but that's my cross to bear...do you really think I was serious about my guitar amp? Your points have been deducted for condescending douchebaggery. Man...in any case, I don't own a 305, and seriously doubt the veracity of the test you posted if only due to personal experience...I think this guy needs better microphones. |
I suppose NOW you want those points back...no way man...and everybody distorts when their excursion increases. On that we agree. |
I was referring to digital bass management (I even used those exact words), like Audyssey's and others, in the part of my post you highlighted...this IS a form of active EQ. And, I know multiple subs work fine for many as I've also stated, a point that you seemingly CAN'T get. Rational universe indeed... |
My beef isn't with crossovers, and I don't "bash" the idea of multiple subs, I simply (!) say that a single sub without some form of active room correction is a less expensive and often cleaner alternative to running everything through a digital nanny device. I may have seemed to be "bashing," but as an evil and mean spirited maniac, I was merely attempting to draw those with apparent differing hobbyist needs into an impassioned discussion to reveal their insecurities and possible semantic roadblocks. |
There is an interesting characteristic noticed by many sub owners (substers? subheads? sub-humans?) where the sub seems to "charge" the room...the low frequency "ambience" supplied by a sub gets the room warmed up in a sense, and even with music not necessarily bass heavy there appears to be a more "live" sound. I can verify this by simply turning my sub off...all music appears to be more sterile and far less warm without the sub. Also note that full range main speakers (large or multiple woofers) don't allow for bass adjustment (without some sort of soul destroying EQ...heh) if they overwhelm the room, where a good sub easily allows for that if only by turning it down a little, if necessary. So Karl, get a sub. Go...do it now...I'll wait here. |
I stuck a "chicken head" knob on the level pot of my REL as some stuff needs tweaking...not enought bass, way too much...etc. The purpose of that knob is to be able to tell where it is by feel since it faces toward the wall. |
A single sub needs to be positioned properly to disappear...if you place it too far off in a corner or someplace you might notice it being out of the ballfield, so to speak. My setup has the sub directly behind the left speaker and since it's set to about 51hz it blends perfectly with the mains and all the aural cues for stereo come from the mains anyway when you're sitting it the sweet spot. If I had another sub with the right side speaker it would be too close to the gear rack which doesn't need any more vibration, although everything is on vibration absorbing pods and such. All of this follows natural laws of physics regarding bass rolloff which can be read in my famous white paper, "subwoofers and the tawdry overuse of them by unsophisticated boneheads overloading their rooms and being forced to use digital room correction"...by request, $12.95. |
I'm not in the Bob camp, in spite of how badly he wants me there. I'm merely speaking about the actual sounds of things, and if you adjust a REL to appear at the point where the main speaker starts to lose its ability to produce much bass and the REL takes it from there (below any main "crossover region" because that is irrelevant to the REL design), it works beautifully. There is no "muddying" of the main speaker's acoustic output because the main speaker is down some serious DBs at that point and (again, based on reality) blends fine if used properly. When you state things like, "The main speakers WILL MUDDY UP the clean bass produced by the REL, at least within the crossover region" you ignore the fact that there is no crossover region at the REL High Level input, simply a frequency point where you integrate the sub to assist the mains, and, clearly, you haven't heard a well set up REL or you would know this (maybe). I know other designs work well also, because I've heard them, and I'm IN the pro recording industry.
|
Risking redundancy (or, more to the point...being redundant!), again, to attempt to simplify MY point...I get great sound without digital EQ in MY room with a single REL. Great, natural, non lumpy sound. It's been stated that others can't get good, non lumpy (!) tone with their multiple subs without digital assistance, and I understand why. Really...I do.
For the record: Digital bass management is not "just a crossover" or a crossover at all...it is digital limiting (or compression) of certain peak frequencies that are considered by somebody to tax woofers, or excite room nodes and standing waves. If it's NOT limiting those "undesireable" frequency peaks, what the hell IS it doing? And the statement, "A peek at measured distortion tests will reveal VERY large values (often well north of 30%) for most subs as driver excursion (and SPL) increases" is poorly stated and, as such, makes no sense unless you're more specific...the speaker fails at what point? The amp clips? Most? Some don't?...huh? I use digital and analog EQ in venues for live stuff all the time with large, extremely powerful subs so I'm not a Luddite...and I get that many home rigs need digital assistance (some of my best friends...)...I'm only emphatic about the fact that I don't need it, in my room, with my rig. And other might not either. See? Wasn't that simple? I'm not sure what guitar playing has to do with any of this, but I award Martykl an extra point for that anyway, and please don't measure the distortion of my class A tube guitar amp...I can't take it... |
I bought a REL Q150e for 200 bucks 4 or so years ago, and a Q108 Series II also for 200 bucks recently so I'm in the Sub Cheapskate camp (both subs work perfectly and sound amazing). New RELs seem well received so any of them should work, and one larger REL produces deeper bass generally although multiples of smaller subs can also work with less effort I suppose, but your room size indicates one should do the job…that new REL wireless gizmo seems like a great idea by the way. |
