Wow Beetlemania, you're my kind of audiophile. The few times I posted similar details, and the proper test engineering of listening and evaluating each set of changes, then ranking them, I've been met with crickets. As such, my post you're responding to was minimal.
I do have 0.1uF bypass Multicaps across all three ESAs, and my 13uF coax series is a 10uF || 3uF ESA. (These are in addition to the Lexington Elpacs I mentioned that remain in place) I'm sure there are all variety of better caps by now that improve on both CSA and ESA; that ship has sailed.
Fair point to replace the electrolytics due to loose tolerances and drift. I'll look into the coils and order the resistors. Thiel supplied me with the schematic for the HF XO, but don't have one for the LF XO, though it should be simple enough to figure out. Anyone who has that diagram I'd appreciate it in a PM.
Does anyone know about the changes to the 2.4 woofer that were apparently made after my speakers were manufactured?
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Interesting to read the 2.4 upgrade issues here and the seeming availability of parts. I'm currently planning a complete upgrade to my 3.7 XOs . It has FXT boards, loosely wound coils, MKT caps, just as @beetlemania describes. I have spent the last several months trying to source components. Nothing at all available from ERSE or Rob for coil replacement but have found everything I need from Jantzen. Resistors not a problem. Caps a big problem but work is in progress. I want to have this all done by summer end and will post.
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Happy Friday and Memorial Day Weekend- ALL.
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Excellent discussion- All.
Reading across other Audio forums, Cardas Rhodium/Silver is the preferred binding post upgrade. This technique is applied to loudspeaker as well as Power amp posts. Silver tends to act as a superior conductor on several Audio fronts. Presentation and sound can portray brightness and or lean. At any rate Silver is very fast sounding. One audition with a Nordost cable or cord is all it takes.
Happy Listening!
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Did you use ERSE Fiol/Q for all 3 speakers ? I imagine you mean all three boards? The 2.4 uses a mechanical crossover for the tweeter/mid, so only two boards. The coax and woofer boards each have one coil in the direct feed path and those are the ones Tom selected as targets for foil type. But I’ve read, and now experienced, that caps in the shunt position can have audible consequences even on the woofer board. Some consider better components in shunts to not result in better SQ, all the more so on the woofer. To be fair, the 2.4 crossover is at 700 cycles (IIRC) and, with the low slopes, that woofer is really covering most of the midrange. But, my point is I will not be surprised to read reports of improved SQ using foil type coils in the shunt position. |
snbeall- The PCS was introduced in 2000. If yours has a double magnet on the woofer, that constitutes the upgrade. Interesting thing that double magnet. Its obvious purpose is to reduce EMF leakage for use near a video monitor. However, the reduced stray fields also reduce interaction with the crossover inductors and lead wires for more solidity and transparency, especially with complex and/or loud music.
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@beetlemania
I too replaced the posts with the Cardas rodium/silver with the gold plated nuts , a lot of work for little if any gain .
To clarify I replaced the new Thiel wire and made the assumption
that your 2.4se's came with Striaghtwire 18 guage solid wire ,
but either way the Cardas wiring was a big upgrade for both of us .
I used 17.5 awg for the tweeter and mid-range and 15.5awg for the woofer and to the inputs on the crossover boards .
I am curious about the new Straight wire configurations that Tom is experimenting with .
Did you use ERSE Fiol/Q for all 3 speakers ?
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@vair68robert
So, you have installed Cardas hook up wire and compared it to “original” and “new” Thiel?
IIRC, @tomthiel said that OEM was sourced from Straightwire (at least for “original” Thiel) but it was never resolved whether my SEs were equipped with that or sourced from FST. It did appear to be 18 ga and twisted per the Thiel recipe.
Note that I also replaced the gold over brass OEM binding posts with Cardas rhodium over silver. On paper, a notable upgrade. I cannot say to what degree the sonics are resulting from the wire versus binding posts. |
most of the way to these speakers’ potential once I replace the resistors. Super cool that you have Lexington boards and upgraded the coax feeds to ESAs. I am confident you’re getting better SQ than the SE version (FST boards plus SAs on the coax feeds). My SEs had the FST boards with CYC MKT caps (other than the Clarity SAs on the coax), air core coils but with less than optimal winding integrity, and sandcast resistors (manufacturer unknown but similar construction to sandcasts from Xicon or Erse). Additionally, the printed circuit boards looked to have been somewhat burned underneath a couple of the resistors, so perhaps these were damaged by a previous owner playing very loudly. During my upgrade, I did not listen to each single change I made so am unable to pinpoint everything. But I did pause at several stages and compared modified and reference channels in mono (using Roon to produce a mono mix). Comparisons I made were: 1) FST boards with sandcasts v Mills; 2) FST with Mills v “Tom Thiel boards” (CSAs though out, including on coax shunts, Lex-equivalent coils including Erse FoilQ in feed positions, and Mills resistors); 3) Tom’s boards with and without RTX Multicap bypasses on the coax feeds; 4) 160 v 250 V woofer shunt caps; 5) OEM binding posts and hookup wire v Cardas binding posts and hook up wire; 6) single v biwiring from the amp. I heard at least some difference from each of these changes. In significance, I rank them: 1) CSAs + Lex/FoilQ coils (better resolution/textures/microdynamics; more open, clear, and transparent); 2) Mills MRAs (mitigated “glassy” midrange, improved bass impact/soundstage/“ease”): 3) Cardas wire and binding posts (more open/clear/holographic/“immediate”); 4) tie among biwiring (more relaxed/liquid/dimensional), coax Multicap bypasses (better “jump factor”, smidge more resolution), and higher voltage woofer shunt caps (bass “heft”, ease of presentation). So, @sdecker I strongly recommend you upgrade the resistors. That’s a nice upgrade for short money. Several sources indicate the CSA improves on the ESA but is it worth your time and effort? I recall you kept the 1 uF bypass caps, so maybe “yes” (ie, get full capacitance in a single cap or, if forced to run parallel, have the smaller cap represent a larger portion of the total capacitance). In your shoes, I would upgrade the *feed* coils to FoilQ or Jantzen wax foil (one coil on each board). I did not directly compare the foil to air core but I think it’s worth trying this given that you can get all four foil coils for <$100. I would replace the 100uF coax shunts if only because electrolytics drift with age. The best solution is to go with film caps as they sound better and will last far longer but those are also far more expensive and larger. Sticking to electrolytics, I would pick the Jantzens. The other changes I made fall in the category of diminishing returns (although I had a big smile on my face with the Cardas, it seemed to snap everything into focus). You might try a small bypass on the coax feed caps. Something like a 0.1 uF Audyn True Copper Max, Clarity CMR, or Jupiter copper foil. I don’t know that these are better than the more affordable Multicap but am curious. I have each coax feed, including the 43 uF subfeed, bypassed at ~1% but you might try a single 0.1 uF on the 28 uF cap. |
Tom
Thank you for passing on your information about speaker production #'s.
I am pleasantly suprised that there were 1500 pairs of 2.7s ,
way more than I thought .
Going back to internal wiring , after my trials and errors I totally agree
with you that the wiring inside the speakers have to be twisted .
While I can't say that the Cardas chassis wire sounds better than
the original Thiel 18 gauge solid wire ( beetle can and did ) ,
they do sound much better than the new Thiel 16 gauge stranded wire .
I've also change speaker wire configuration by using
Cardas Neutral Reference which is 4 X 11.5 gauge ( both polarities ) for the positive and using 2 X 9.5 gauge homemade for the negative ,
keeping them separate basically doubling the gauge input .
I haven't started yet on the crossovers except to buy the Mills resistors
from Partsconnexion because of the great sale price .
One big issue with the 2.7 crossover design when trying to upgrade
the components , to use Mills resistors one has to use 2 in parallel for almost everyone and for some reason they did not follow Jim's philosophy with limiting capacitors to 100uf .
When I replace the 400uf and the 330 + 220uf electrolytics on the
mid board because of space the best I can do is 2 X 200uf and
2 X 220uf + 1 X 110uf ( unless you recommend 2 X 200 and 1 X 150uf ).
Anyway upgrading speakers can be very challenging and I am very grateful for all your advise .
Thank You
Rob
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beetlemania,
Surprised about your (less than adequately disclosed) damages, because I failed to mention their high quality photography and was almost going to comment on their almost obsessive disclosures.
The last two items I purchased had photographs of the tiniest of nicks and rubs - very easily touched up with a Sharpie. I have purchased a couple “As-Is” scratch and dent items from them with obvious damage - but even at that, it was very clear from the photos what I was getting. |
tomthiel,
Thanks for insider info on the PCS. Wondering why you referred to them as the “Y2K PCS” however? - as if there was perhaps another (later?) version…
For what it’s worth, peering thru the access port shows a Jan 2005 manufacture date on the woofer. So it sounds as if the PCS never had the coax driver from the 2.4, but that this particular one may have an “improved” model from the 2.3, correct?
I was hoping it might be a miniaturized (i.e. easily shipped and transported) 2.4 with similar performance.
Not that it’s performance isn’t satisfying! |
Tom, Thanks for the clarification. I am pretty sure mine are numbered 4332/4333 but like I said the numbers are rubbed and it is a bit of a guess. Based on the above, info they may have been some of the last made, so definitely would not have the lex boards. Guess I now have a future project on my to do list. Glad to hear the 2.4 was definitely a winner both in sales and, for me, sound enjoyment.
bettlemania, thank you for the info on accessing to xo. I will start trying to track down the parts mentioned in this thread.
Jafant, no I did not have the earlier Cary DMS units but the sound from the 700 via streaming and flac files is truly impressive and musical; on a par with my analogue set up in many recordings. |
sdecker and all - I gave bad information re 2.4 count. The correct count is around 4500 or 2250 pairs plus around 125 pairs of SEs. Let's please reset our thinking on the CS2.4 success, it was a winner. Thank you for your detail on 611-612 as still being original Lexington production.
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A low-numbered pair of CS 2.4 loudspeakers. |
sdecker
Excellent! Good to see you own a low-numbered pair. The general consensus agrees on Clarity Cap CSA/ESA (s) as well. What gear is in your current system?
Happy Listening! |
Just catching up with the past week of posts -- about 2.4s. Surprised to learn this was Thiel's lowest-volume speaker, building on the successful 2.3, with a good economy for the first 5 years of production when most would have sold, and a still-committed dealer network.
As a point of reference, mine are SN 611 & 612 and almost definitely have the original XO: wooden LF & HF boards (literally) hand-wired with Acousti-Coils, AEON electrolytics, bright yellow Elpac 100V 1uF 5% polystyrenes (?), Erse 100uF 100V electrolytics, Xicon resistors, and a Solen PA-MKP-FC in the LF XO. I believe they were AEONs that I replaced with Clarity Cap ESAs some years ago in the coax feed. Rob Gillum built me a new pair of coaxes a couple years ago, so I'm sure I'd be most of the way to these speakers' potential once I replace the resistors. *Most* of the way: I know how far some of you have gone with all the ancillary parts!
When I bought these used from agon in mid-2006, I had checked with Thiel who told me these SNs were early production units with the previous woofer that was later updated, though sonically identical. Never followed up about that, but I'm sure buried in my paperwork or emails is the date of manufacture of these speakers.
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@jmbumgarner01 Here are CS2.4 crossover access instructions from Rob Gillum: The crossover can be accessed through the passive radiator opening. The base is not removable, as it is screwed, and glued. To access the crossover, you must remove the passive radiator screws and let the passive radiator drop into the cabinet. It can be rotated 90 degrees, and removed while servicing. To re-install the passive radiator, you can place your fingers at the surround, pressing outward to hold in place while re-installing the screws that hold bit in place. |
jmbumgarner01
Thank you for citing the rest of your system. the Rega P8 is an excellent TT as is the Cary audio DMS 700. To date the DMS has been a great product for Cary. Did you own the 500 or 600 models?
Luckily, the CS 2.4 is not difficult to drive nor match (sonically).
Happy Listening! |
Thiel’s dialed in and set up are magical indeed ….glad to be among fellow Thielites (?)..ha…. Totally agree bettlemania…good to just sit back and enjoy sometimes.
jafant, my analogue is Rega P8 alpheta 3 mc and rega aria 3 phono stage, my digital is a Cary DMS 700 (r2r ladder dac and streamer) both of which I love. Those I bought new so they were pricey but they are really sweet and hope to have a good long while.
I will let you know if I move forward on 2.4 xo upgrades, probably be a bit as budget is toast and like beetlemania says good to just listen for awhile in between upgrade urges. |
beetlemania
Agreed- once your system is dialed-in, no need for any further upgrade(s).
Happy Listening! |
jmbumgarner01
Nice score! Both Cary Audio and Pass Labs are sonic matches for the CS 2.4 model. What other gear rounds out your system?
Happy Listening! |
Gotta say the 2.4’s even with the fcx are truly fantastic. I loved reading the vintage reviews linked earlier.
I spent the last 4 months switching between the 2.4’s and Magnipan 3.7’s. I feel like a guy with two very beautiful wives that get along, are very similar but each shine in slightly different ways….but I can only be with one at a time….truly audio nirvana. I drive them with Pass X260.8, Cary SLP-05 with NOS tubes and silversmith audio ribbon speaker cables and to my ears it is a combination made in heaven….that said we all continue to look for improvements in our quest for perfection. Thanks for all the ideas and especially to Tom for the history of speakers that have emotionally connected me to recorded music for more than 30 years. |
I love this thread. The history, suggestions and tweeks are priceless. Have owned 2 pair of CS2’s since late ‘80’s. I picked up some mint 2.4’s late last year. Looks like serial #433/434 although almost looks like they could be 4331/4332 . Numbers are rubbed and very hard to read but given number of total pairs made mentioned above the 400’s are likely the better guess. Consequently I likely have the later fcx boards. I am definitely interested in the crossover upgrade possibilities but not really sure I want to dismantle and rebuild myself unless everything can be accessed from the back plate? I may call and see if this can be done turnkey since one of my CS2’s has gone dead in midrange also. These speakers are all keepers for me.
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Prof - I find it interesting to ferret out rather than letting sleeping dogs lie. I'm getting a pair of 2.4s soon and will be able to date them via serial numbers. Their particulars will be of great interest. I suspect with some facts in my quiver, Rob and/or Dawn would confirm or deny my assertions and speculations.
TT
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Tom,
Wow, what surprising and interesting insight in to the end-of-life Thiel business! Thank you!
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I bought my CS2.4SEs from TMR. I had a positive experience but the cabinets had more damage than advertised. Not just the usual small scratches but one bottom corner is a bit crushed, suggesting the speaker was once dropped. But they were well packaged, in original boxes, on a pallet for delivery to my home.
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No, jafant, I don’t have any upgrades planned. I had my Ayre QB-9 upgraded to the Twenty version last year and that might be my final upgrade. My system is really dialed in. In 2019 I was able to hear a reference system and my system only comes up short in bass extension, bass definition, and image density. Those are only noticeable in direct comparison. I am aware of those shortcomings and nonetheless fully enjoy my system without upgrade neuroses.
Meanwhile, my retirement is on the horizon and even now it would be a financial reach to address those minor deficiencies. So, I’m happy with my system and care not to obsess over how to improve it. |
snbeall - my understanding from insiders is that the Y2K PCS used the coax from 1998's CS2.3, which probably includes its upgrade to double-magnet status in 2001 onward. (Conjecture: incorporating the 2003 CS2.4 coax would have required XO redesign which wasn't deemed necessary.) Managing so many products (20+) in a small company is an art of its own.
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This is my fourth (or fifth?) purchase from TMR. All were very positive experiences. Not only do they attract and screen for good quality pre-owned equipment, but more importantly their packaging has always been top notch. Anyone who has purchased pre-owned knows how important proper packaging and shipping is. And their 14 day home trial is just icing. Not affiliated or anything. Just satisfied customer.
That said, my question seems to have fallen away. Is the coax driver in the PCS the same as in the CS 2.4? |
snbeall
Good to read about your positive experience with TMR. This Audio company(re-seller) is really making a name for themselves.
Happy Listening! |
@jon_5912.. yes. I got them from TMR. I really didn’t need more either, but I’ve always been curious about the PCS model. Frankly, I fully expected to play and return, but as I wrote, I’m smitten. Computer speakers?! - these things fill my 15,000 cubic ft space! And they are bigger than you might think. They would not fit on a desk. Well…not readily anyway. |
jon_5912
there is a bit of magic in the Creek 5350SE.
Happy Listening! |
ALL
feel free to talk about Prices on anything Audio related here. There are no restriction(s) regarding this important matter (wholesale, middle man, retail).
Happy Listening! |
beetlemania
Thank You for the cost comparison. Those prices are not bad at all.
Very affordable if you ask me. Are you planning any additional upgrade(s) this year? After I establish my cables/cords, we will talk about my SE pair.
Happy Listening! |
@jafant I honestly do not have a full accounting of what I spent but I’m pretty sure it was north of $1000. I mean, I replaced everything except the drivers and cabinets. I have Cardas hookup wire and dual Cardas binding posts, fer-cryin-out-loud! Even the coax shunts caps at 100 uF each are a low voltage version of the CSA. My 2.4s are really tricked out. About the only stones left unturned were Path Audio re$i$tor$ and Jupiter copper foil bypa$$ cap$.
I do recall I spent about $100 on the Mills MRAs from Sonic Craft. But that was 3 years ago, so prices are likely higher now. Still, that’s a pretty good deal for upgrade in SQ from the sandcast resistors. I bought some stuff from Parts Connexion and other outlets but a lot of it came via Tom Thiel who was working directly with Clarity. And 6/10 coils came from Rob Gillum who had a stock of Lex-equivalent coils (Erse, maybe Jantzen, rather than FST).
I suspect a judicious DIYer with Lex boards could probably get about 80% of the SQ of my upgrade for, maybe, $500. Mills MRAs throughout, Clarity CSAs on the coax feeds (plus, maybe a single bypass cap - I used Multicaps but am really curious about Audyn True Copper Max or Jupiter in the bypass position), foil type inductors in the feed positions, refresh the 100 uF electrolytics with Jantzen Premium ELKOs. Those of us with FST boards might choose to reach deeper into our wallets, especially if the woofer caps are MKTs. If you have FST boards like I did (MKT caps and loosely wound coils), I suggest replacing everything.
But, remember, I’m insane :) |
@snbeall - get those from The Music Room? I saw some there a few days ago, wanted them, but I just don't need more speakers. I figure they'd be spectacular as computer speakers hooked up to my 20 year old Creek 5350SE and Cambridge DacMagic. |
snbeall
Good to see you here again. The new Chrissie Hynde release is on my short-list. I like your loudspeaker comparisons. This is the only way to decide if a move away from Thiel Audio is warranted? Most will return to a Thiel.
Happy Listening! |
Oh, I forgot to mention that what I’m powering the PCS’s with is a lowly Bluesound Powernode 2i. A Hypex based/licensed amp rated at 100W into 4 ohms. Dunno… I’ve been an audiophile for a few decades now. This Hypex amp comes and goes to black. Handles anything thrown at it above 2 ohms. And possibly below. And I can hold it in one hand.
Not a challenge. Or threat. Just an observation. |
beetlemania
Excellent! Thank You for the update. Feel free to post the prices for CSA, Mills and other upgrades caps/resistors for the Panel. I feel this would be helpful information to those considering changing out XO's.
Happy Listening! |
Sorry, but I’m going to take the thread away from CS 2.4’s for a moment (but not too far I believe?)
I just picked up a mint pair of PCS’s and within 3 seconds of firing them up, I realized that they were something special.
I have a USS equivalent (SS-1 with USS amp) that I was never able to manage a satisfactory match with my Powernode 1.2’s on the floor - despite both a PX-02 and PX-05 matched crossover. I have a SCS4 PX-05 that I thought must be a pretty close match to the PCS crossover, so tried it.
Listening to the new Chrissie Hynde album on Tidal MQA (and Billie Eilish before that), I have my mouth agape. Completely new level in comparison to the Powerpoints, as well as all my Monitor Audio, Martin Logan bookshelves, not to mention my beloved Meridian DSP actives.
So now my first question. I’ve always considered the PCS to be miniaturized (more easily shipped) CS2.4’s. Don’t they use the same coax mid/treble driver? The room simply blooms with the sound! And it’s a LARGE space.
That coax driver is really something.
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I certainly do not hear a glassy presentation with my Ayre QB-9. But even if the Ayre is guilty of this sonic trait, as you suggest, that is *not* what I heard with the SEs when I first got them. It was a trait not apparent with my Vandersteens or Thiel CS1.6 and it was mostly, if not entirely, cured by replacing the OEM resistors with Mills. And the Tom Thiel crossover upgrade brought the performance up to near SOTA other than in bass performance (no help for that given the 8” driver and passive radiator) and image density. So, what I’m talking about has nothing to do with the source or amp. |
2nd Note;
with every DAC/Server piece of gear up to the $20K mark, my ears detect, that "glassy" presentation and sound in the Midrange register(s).
Happy Listening! |
beetlemania
In both SE auditions, I detected, no glassy presentation within the Midrange register. Even though the pairs are quite apart S/N wise, I enjoyed the same presentation and sound quality. A measure sweeter than a stock 2.4 model.
I really must hear your upgraded pair sometime in the future.
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
CSA caps : corrected.
Happy Listening! |
I wish Rob could hear my 2.4s. His upgrades can go a whole ‘nuther level, IMO, given that he is probably only replacing the coax feed caps with the SAs.
The SE version also received rave reviews from Enjoy the Music and Ultra Audio. I wonder about the crossovers in the review pair (probably the same pair for both reviews?). Were they Lex or FST. And if FST, with polyester or polypropylene caps? I also wonder if the “glassy” midrange anomaly I heard was because of overheated resistors from a previous owner. I was mostly happy when the SEs arrived in my system but they were not without flaw. @tomthiel the upgraded boards made this one sublime speaker!
Wes Phillips was one of my favorite reviewers. I trusted his ear and he was also an excellent writer. |
tomthiel
What kind of cost/price is involved with CC SA caps or SCA caps ?
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
Thank You for the CS 2.4 confirmation. I miss Wes (R.I.P.). His review is one for the ages.
Happy Listening! |
Beetle- regarding odd 2.4SE variants. Rob has done lots of customer upgrades from stock to SE xo status, either at his shop or providing parts and supervising. He uses CC SA caps, according to the original design when the SA was CC’s best. The CSA is a league up, but n my opinion. |
CS2.4 count update: Rob responded that there were about 2300 pairs of CS2.4s made, of which "only a few at the beginning were with Lex XO boards, before buying completed XOs from FST." That count makes more sense.
However it doesn't answer the quality decline riddle. I have (veiled) insider information that after Jim's death in 2009, and possibly earlier, Kathy cut costs in all the products. It is likely that she authorized the change from propylene to mylar caps and lesser coils. Just speculating on who and when, but we do know the what - some later versions were lower quality than earlier ones.
What I would love to know is whether Wes Philips 1991-1992 pair has Thiel or FST XOs and at what quality level. Reviews don't get much better than that one, and Wes was about as good as reviewers get. I'll see if I can tease an answer to that riddle out of Rob. More later.
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