Thiel Owners
Bray - I only know the broad outlines from observations and a few conversations. The SW1 came out in 1997 from work Jim had been doing for about 5 years. That was early Class D and incorporated thermistor compensation and shaping circuitry ; the SW1 (2-10") were made in-house. That product became the SS2 in 2004, also made in-house with the 1,2,3,4 line. The unique design required in-house repair, which Jim performed due to his intimate knowledge of the complex circuitry. Jim was sick for a few years before he died in 2009. Sometime in there Bash/Canada began producing the amps, but it seems there was continual struggle to keep the sophisticated particulars in-tact and supported. When New Thiel took over in 2012, they decided to cease support of the line, by then out of warranty (red flag.) My speculation is that manufacture ceased somewhere between 2009 and 2012. I don't have direct knowledge and I don't want to bother Rob with my learning curve. I am gradually assembling my fact base. |
Tom: thank you so much for the info on the speaker grills. I posted the link above just because i thought it was interesting. It does not surprise me a bit that Thiel speakers would not treat them as an after thought. I still remember calling Gary Dayton when i found out that Jim had passed. Even though i had never met Jim, i felt really sad about that and wanted to give Gary my condolences |
Tom, I have an SS2.2. I'll have to move it out from the back wall to get the serial number.(It weighs a short ton!) The 2.2 has a different "back panel" than the 2. Looking back, I probably got one of the last ones produced, as when I went back to the dealer a month later to get a second one, he said there were no more. It's interesting I was able to get the PX05 with a caption for use with the 2.7 speakers. (The PX02 was out of production). I have not tried it via the LTE input, although the owners manual shows the capability to connect both the passive PX and an LTE at the same time. |
Unsound - the dispersion at the midrange upper end is narrower than the tweeter's lower end. The wave guide creates some directionality at the low end of the tweeter to better match the midrange for smoother image projection vs frequency. They were quite successful in that the polar pattern is more regular vs frequency. Thiel got away from grilles with frames as addressed above, so that element went away. But . . . the shallow midrange cone was engineered as a waveguide for all the coincident drivers. The deep straight-sided back cone supplies strength when triangulated with the shallow, curved front waveguide cone. Wonders never cease. brayeagle - I suspect your SS2.2 might have been made by Bash, but I am guessing. I'd love your date of purchase and serial number if you can ever manage the wrestle . |
No. Lobing is inherent in first order filter slopes; it has to do with additive phase physics. If one tried to massage or average the lobed output, it would adversely affect the power response. However, the sloped baffle (rather than discrete steps with on-axis drivers) serves quite well to manage the lobing: the 15° down-lobe launches toward the listener, making a larger vertical window than would otherwise be the case. The combined launch waves from all the drivers blend quite well at 10' listening distance. Closer requires more careful setup. |
Hi jafant, well still searching as you can see, i spoke with a distributor that told me Dartzeel and Ypsilon will not have enough juice in the bass region do drive my 3.7s.He suggested me strong class A amps or SOTA class AB doubling down to 2 ohms.So here am i looking at the Ayre pre-power.Were you able to demo some amps for you 2.4SE's lately ? |
Tom, I have serial No. -4 of the SW1, now in mothballs. I'll probably put it up for sale at some point. This is the prototype that Jim used to demo the SW1 at audio shows until the SS2 model was released. I bought it from a former employee (or contractor?) who did graphic arts work for Thiel. I used the SW1 with a PX05 that Rob configured for my 3.7s. It sounded great and blended seamlessly without any fiddling. Tom, do you know how the circuitry controlled by the rear and sidewall adjustments works to counteract Speaker Boundary Interaction Response (SBIR) effects? SBIR involves cancelation between reflected waves (with negative amplitude) and direct outgoing waves at certain predictable frequencies. SBIR problems cannot be addressed with equalization, so I've always wondered how this unique Thiel technology works. The only thing I can think of would be to sum the original signal with a suitably delayed signal filtered to within a narrow band of the problem frequency. Another question: Why didn't Jim include phase controls on the SmartSubs? Although it runs counter to the plug and play SmartSub philosophy, a phase control can be used to achieve phase alignment between subs and mains at the cross-over frequency. |
ish - I am interested in your SW1. Please contact me via PM. Regarding the boundary management software, I would only be guessing. I do know as you outline, that Jim would not have addressed the problem via EQ. I believe there are patents on what he did which you might search online and perhaps report back to us. I share your phase control question. I am using physical placement for an approximation of phase alignment. Someone said here that LTE can be use simultaneously with PXO to address phase. My speculation is that since the sub crossover is 4th order (high and low), and therefore adding 360° phase shift at xo, and given the very long wavelengths at those low frequencies . . . perhaps he thought plug and play was worth more than time alignment from a phase control. I don't know. Does anybody out there have any educated opinions? |
Thieliste, Try to audition a Coda CS. Biased to class A for the first 8 watts and peak current of 100 amperes per channel. 300 WPC into 8 ohms and doubles down. It has no trouble driving my Thiel CS 5's that go below 2 ohms. I am listening to "Joe Pass: Virtuoso" right now and the bass is vibrating in my body. Ooh la la! Dsper |
Ish - Duh. I believe the SSs are all analog, so delays and so forth can't be easily implemented. For example, dsper's upper and lower mid drivers needed 3/8" and 1/2" time delay which took, if I remember correctly, more than 40 bucket brigade capacitor banks. Huge, expensive and specific to those parameters. |
Hey Guys, I am lurking around the forum, despite having sold all my gear, including a pair of CS6's and 2.4's, in a frenzy of "downsizing". I now maintain two houses, one in Taos, and a "garden home" in Midland, neither of which has any sounds at all. disper, I never found anything that would drive my CS5's; I am now starting over, and I might as well begin with an amp. I'll take a look at the Coda, for sure. I will say that the best sound I ever got was my 2.4's with the fpb 300 Krell. |
Hi y'all, Been enjoying semi-regular lurking on these pages. Maybe this is plain enough and not in the scope of the discussion about other creative ways one might get or get close to good SSx time alignments. I have a pair of 3.7s mated with a pair of SS1s positioned behind each a couple of feet. I use a Behringer DCX2496 (Ric Schultz modded) as a crossover controller (ahead of power amp and SS1s) plugging into the SS1s normal inputs. I have chosen a second order filter slope at 80 Hz. Second order as a compromise between the Thiel loved first order and thinking to get the energy to fall off a little quicker to avoid much power going to the passive radiators—maybe muddying the possibly purer SS1 lows. I looked at the (main speakers) delay that would be by calculations appropriate for a sum of the SS1 behind positions and the delay at Xf for the second order slope. I dialed in that number and tweaked it (only a small amount needed) until the SPL response at 80 was peaked indicating good time alignment there. (and of course set the relative levels by looking at plots of low frequency sweeps) Seems like there may be a couple of nuances to this line of thinking that I’m neglecting to recall but w/o digging back into my couple years old notes, that is the essence... I have been pleased with the results. Bass is well integrated sounding, particularly on transients and particularly when compared with either a DCX zero delay file or the fourth order behavior of the Thiel PX05s I started with. Cheers, John |
Silvanik I've been meaning to write and welcome a fellow McCormack amp owner and a passive pre-amp user . You had me daydreaming about the DNA-2 , great specs , there was a Deluxe edition for sale on E-bay starting at $2,000 , buy then I saw the weight of the unit ! Ironically the Thiel thread was discussing the weight of equipment and the aging of the owners , daydream over . I had just purchased a new phono pre-amp that has taken my system to a new height in listening pleasure . ( luckily because if I hadn't just spent $1,800 I might have still been daydreaming about the DNA-2 amp ) I went from an entry level SimAudio Moon 110LP s.s. with a regulated power supply ( big improvement over the stock wall wort ) to and Tavish Design Asiago tube unit . New height , width , depth , definition and BASS ! My 2.7s let me hear every improvement every detail with bass that is so clear and low WOW , no tube roll off here or at the high end either . It took me over 2 years to make the decision on which one to move up to with the Manley Chinook , the Decware ZP3 , also the Parasound JC jr and the Sutherland Insight as the contenders ., but the Tavish Designs with it's separate power supply and all tube MM amplification won out . Are there any other McCormack amp Thiel speaker guys out there ? Do any of you use a passive pre-amp ? I have seen many of the Thiel owners praise the power of tubes , do any of you have a tube phono pre-amp ? Happy Listening All Today is Classical Sunday Rob |
Hello everyone. First time audio fan here. Last year I jumped into the audio world by purchasing a pair of Thiel CS2 speakers (the original CS 2). Found them on Craigslist for $500. I used speakers with my Sony receiver (100W) that I purchased at Best Buy for $300 until I could purchase some real equipment. Despite the poor equipment, the speakers sounded very good. Last month I purchased a Classe DR-5 pre amp and two (2) DR-8 amps. Despite being older equipment, everything came in the original boxes, was stored in a closet for about 20 years, and looks brand new. In mono mode, the DR-8 amps have 240 watts into 8 ohms, and 540 watts into 4 ohms. The Classe equipment really made my speakers sing for about a day. That is when I noticed the woofers in my Thiels making a bad vibration sound (at first I thought I blew a tweeter). At higher levels I notice the sound was distorted and did not sound right. I have confirmed that both woofers need to be replaced, and replacement is about $450. Question is did I damage the Thiels with the Classe equipment when I played it at loud volumes (my wife likes to play dance/club music loud)? Just wondering if the speakers being so old gave up the chase, or if we sent too much power to the speakers and damaged them. I also read online that I could have damaged the Thiels with the old Sony receiver by playing the music loud and not having enough power, which in turn damaged the speaker. Either way I will have to replace both woofers, but I do not want to damage the speakers in the future. I just hope the speakers will sound the same with new woofers. Also, my speaker wire is not the best so I hope that did not cause an issue either (feel free to recommend good speaker wires). In addition, while I love the sound of the CS2 speakers I have, they are old and I am wondering if I should upgrade to something newer. Was thinking of the 2.4 or the 3.6, but I did not know if my equipment would be enough power for the 3.6 speakers. If someone could comment on this I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance for any suggestions and input. |
Welcome! kdross tomthiel owns Classe' gear and will weigh on your specific query about that vintage. No, I do not believe that the gear damaged your CS2 speakers. Certainly age plays a factor and no doubt that these drivers are old. Another factor to consider is the cross-over (XO) being old as well. Thirdly, did the previous owner(s) treat these speakers poorly? The CS 2.4 model is easy to drive from a modest integrated amp all of the way up to separates. They only get better will better electronics/cabling as well. Keep me posted on your situation. I look forward in reading more about your Audio journey. Happy Listening! |
kdross - congratulations on your CS2s. Thiel made more of those than any other model. It is possible that the loud levels did the damage if fed by an amp with insufficient power to deliver a clean signal. It is unlikely that the woofers or any of the drivers being old is the cause of the trouble. Those drivers have rubber surrounds and generally last indefinitely, unless fed a distorted/damaging signal. Congratulations also on your Classé amps. Your DRs were designed by Classe's founder David Reich who took current delivery very seriously. David moved on to McCormack and Theta Digital. Very good amps, a great match for CS2s. The fact that your woofers quit (see below) and you used a low-power (?) receiver at loud volumes points to distortion causing the failure. The old Sony played loud is the probable culprit. (Wires are probably not the cause.) But there are other possible causes or needs. One probable root of your problem: both your amps and your speakers contain electrolytic capacitors, which have a definite lifespan of 15 to 40 years. They last longer when in constant use. Polarized electrolytics, such as in your amp, lose their bias, especially when in storage. A likely cause of damage is that your caps are leaking, allowing low-frequency power into your signal path and over-powering the drivers. Tweeters and midranges are at most risk, so your woofer failure doesn't match this scenario. BUT, you could be tending a time-bomb. Inside the speakers you can look to see if any of the small, black cylindrical caps have any goo on them. If so, they are definitely failing. If not, they can possibly wait. I recommend the following. If you like the CS2s, keep them and consult Rob Gillum about the possible need for XO cap replacement. But, you can hear any problems before they do damage. If the caps are dry, cap replacement may not be necessary. Your amps most probably need service: including new electrolytic caps. I understand that Classe is back in business and can probably service your amps. That vintage amp in that long-term storage situation is highly likely to have bad caps. Classe can talk you through determining whether the caps are leaking (signal or goo). In my opinion, your gear is worth salvaging and will outperform the large majority of audio gear out there. Good luck and welcome. |
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements ...are not the measurements of a speaker model that is easy to drive . Especially from a modest integrated. |
In a moment of weakness I was ready to sell my Thiel CS2.4's. Long story short, I moved into a new room in house (which combines my listening room and my home office in an alcove of the room) and no matter what, I couldn't get the Thiel's to sound alive. They sound really clean and clear, but lacking "life"/"flesh & bones"/"joie de vivre". I played around with the speaker distance, moving them further out from the front wall then I have ever had them and all of a sudden, the center locked into place and they sounded glorious. The bass is kind of missing in action though.. SOOOO.... I will add a pair of subwoofers. I'm playing around with an Epic Legend right now (which I happened to have sitting around) and although I can get it to blend reasonably well, there's times when I hear it. So what would you recommend that blends well? Unfortunately I think Thiel is out since you can't get the crossover very easily. Recommendations please! :-) |
I thought about purchasing this PX02 Thiel passive XO that is made for my CS3.6 (just in case) or a CS6, but I'm so happy with my bass that I can never invision me needing a sub. Does anyone know what it would take to change this PX02 to work for a CS2.4? https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649444380-thiel-passive-crossover-px02/ |
jon- Rob Gillum at CoherentSource Service makes the PXO modification to match the Thiel speaker of your choice. audiojan- your experience is classic: distance from the walls makes for better image and evenness, but those very walls were reinforcing the bass. In your situation a subwoofer makes sense . . . unless you can move the speakers out of the alcove into a more normal, rectangular space. unsound - indeed. They are pigs to drive well. This year I have read and studied widely, and the over-arching problem of Thiel speakers is driving them. The amps referenced on this forum work and many of those are the amps Jim used in development. Krell fpb, Levinson monoblocs, big Bryston, big CJ, Classe DR. The common thread in those designs is their ability to deliver large current streams at high voltage without distress. Others here have recommended other amps, which are no doubt suitable, but I have not heard them. However, when an amp can't deliver the required current, the litany of complaints arises. |
tomthiel- the speakers are in the larger open space, not in the alcove. My office is in the alcove right off my listening room. The space they're in is about 12' wide and 16' long with acoustic panels on the long wall behind the speakers. The ceiling is tall, but since it's in the attic, it slopes from about 5' up to the peak. I will add a subwoofer to augment the bass of the Thiel's. |
The rest of the system is PS Audio DirectStream DAC, driving the Bel Canto REF500M mono blocks via Cardas Cross XLR and to the Thiel CS2.4's via Cardas Cross speaker cables. Front end includes Auralic Aries SE to DS via AQ Carbon USB, PS Audio PerfectWave transport via AQ Carbon HDMI (i2s), PS Audio NuWave phono via AQ Carbon HDMI from a Clearaudio Champion. |
audiojan - nice system. I do have a reservation about the Bel Canto. The site states minimum impedance 3 ohms. Some class D amps hit a brick wall at their minimum impedance. The CS2.4 drops to 2.73 ohms at 600 Hz. I wonder if you might be running out of amp, rather than out of woofer. Might you borrow a known-to-be-bulletproof amp to see if the bass comes to life? |
I had a similar experience with the bass in my 3.7s sounding a bit weak. I got out my measurement mic and real time analyzer to measure it and it measured fine on sine waves. Still, it bothered me enough that when the store I bought the amp at was selling off their demo I bought it and ran two amps bridged mono. The difference was pretty striking. Even at moderate volumes the difference in definition was very noticeable. I don't know if doubling the power supplies or capacitance or what made the difference but the improvement was big enough that I didn't second guess having spent the money. |
@tomthiel, I've used Mark Levinson ML331's and Krell KAV250 with the Thiels before and the Bel Canto REF500M mono blocks are definitely better than either of those. Especially in the bass and mid-bass. I don't think it's the amp.... I can borrow a few different amps from friends and test your theory, but I don't think that's it. @jon_5912, the amps are mono blocks already, so I'm already there... :-) |
