Thiel Owners

hi Jafant,   truthfully i buy direct from PS but Taylor is only about 30 minutes from my home.   he is who i got my 2.7's from back in 2014.  of course the 3.7's  came from Rob at CST.  I have not been to Goldprint since i got the 2.7's and i know he has moved and expanded his operation.

Right On! ronkent
good to read that Taylor is doing well and expanding his operation. Success could not happen for a nicer gentleman of Audio.   Happy Listening!

I hate to always be contrary but from what I've read the PS audio BHK amps are voiced similarly to most Classe amps.  Both tend to be slightly on the laid back side.  It seems to me that the Classe amps should be balanced by some crystal clear solid state amps that some would find bright.  I'd probably go with Bryston.  I've never owned a Bryston amp but I do have BP25 and BP26 preamps.  They're extremely unsuperstitious and flat.  I would think that Bryston stuff could be used to make sure that crossover upgrades aren't making the speakers too bright.  

My first Thiels were the 2 2s.  I bought them from Audio Consultants in Chicago around 2010.  I consider them the audiophile end of the rainbow.  They were old when I got them.  They are supremely well balanced.  If you listen to unamplified acoustic music and aren't a billionaire this is as far as you need to go.  I understand why my 3.7s are better but they aren't all that much better.  

I know what you mean jon about your 2 2s.  I feel the same about my 3.6’s.  I have never heard or owned a speaker that floats my boat the way they do.  

I also own CS6’s, they are slightly more dynamic, play louder, but not better.  Maybe not as good.  

Excellent counterpoint - jon_5912
I will second Bryston power amps. The BP-25/26 are very fine pre-amps as well.  Happy Listening!

Good to see you - popsmodel 3.6 is a popular one. The best thing about Thiel Audio, is that, there is a loudspeaker for every Audiophile.  Happy Listening!

Jon - Thanks for the Bryston idea. Indeed Classe DR9 is polite and a little "tubey". Bryston might be a good counterbalance.
Pops - I have never felt the need to better my CS2 2s. I'm looking forward to hearing what my XO upgrade work might bring to the table. Mine are pre-production, custom voiced prototypes, but at 28 years old are nearing their electrolytic cap lifespan. With SpectraFoo, and possibly Klippel, I will be able to re-balance all circuits for the very played-in drivers.

tomthiel
what were the differences, if any, between the CS 2.2 and CS 2.3 models?Just curious.  Happy Listening!

As above,across many Audio forums, the CS 2.2, is still  a beloved loudspeaker.Happy Listening!

Well, as of late yesterday, my big ol’ Thiel 3.7s are now gone. Shipped away to some other happy fellow.

I’d advertised for local pick up, got the usual bunch of replies from honestly interested to flaky. One fellow said he wanted them for sure, was arranging to get a truck so he could pick up them up at my house...then vanished. Such is selling gear.

Eventually I was contacted by someone with a very good buyer/seller reputation wanted them, who did everything right, and it was a deal. They had to be shipped across the country though, which I was ok with as long as he arranged all the shipping, which he did. As I’d advised him to, he hired a company that would pick them up with a truck and they would be strapped to a palette upright for shipping. All I had to do was have them boxed and ready for some strapping fellows and their truck to show up.


And that was good, because pick up was arranged for yesterday afternoon and I had just come down with a flu that knocked me completely off my feet, bedridden. No condition to be moving giant speakers out of my house into trucks or anything.

So I get a knock on the door, and there’s this tiny little guy standing there, must have been 5’ 6" tall, with a teeny mini-van outside. I’m like "are you here to pick up the shipment?" He said yes. I said: "just you?" Yup. "Are you kidding me? Wasn’t it clear what type of packages you were picking up? These are big, delicate, expensive speakers. It’s not a one guy job."

He said "oh, I didn’t know. Anyway, I’ll take them."

I could barely move (so fatigued with flu) but only had to watch for one minute as this guy started trying to struggle his way out with one of the speaker boxes, starting to thump it around, when, aw dammit!...I had to help him lift the boxes out the house, down the porch steps to the street into his van. (At one point he almost tipped one of the boxes off his dolly, caught it last second before disaster!). That really sucked, I gotta say.


Apparently this fella was picking up the speakers to get them to the shipping place where they will be strapped to a palette. An audio pal said about this: hey, the buyer has paid for the speakers already, they are his, not your problem anymore."  But there’s no way I wanted anyone to buy these beautiful speakers (and I white-gloved them so they were in as-new condition), and be disappointed by shipping damage.


Hopefully things went better from that point on regarding shipping.

I admit to being somewhat wistful now even seeing a photo of the 3.7s, knowing I don’t have access to that sound now. But given the size of those flagship speakers not being fit for my room (aesthetically) it was like dating briefly with a woman out of your league. Great while it lasts, but was never really to be. :)

what a great story.   hope you feel better.  if you are ever in Greensboro NC come by and i will play mine for you

Good to read - profperhaps the new owner will join us here?  Happy Listening!

Unsound - 2 ohm loads suck and amps give up. Thanks.

Jay - The CS2 2 and 2.3 represent a major tide change. The 2 2 uses all discrete Thiel-designed x Vifa manufactured drivers. They are conventional as single-band (woofer, mid, tweeter), although unconventional via Thiel underhung motors, copper motor shunts and so forth. The woofer is the first dual cone (straight-deep x curved-shallow). PP woofer and midrange x Aluminum (CS5) tweeter. The 2 2 was also the first passive radiator which became the new order. That basketless foam core diaphragm sported dual rubber surrounds (front and back of baffle) to maintain linearity without the cost of supporting framework. That geometry convinced Jim to migrate from the (very inexpensive) port to a passive radiator. In many ways the 2 2 represented a coming of age foundational product with seminal technologies.
The CS2.3 is a breakthrough to the coaxial-coincident upper driver. A central problem of first order slopes is driver lobing which makes listener position quite critical in the vertical dimension. (All those Stereophile graphs at 48" to eventually 80" misrepresent the integrated waveform at any correct (more than 8') position at the proper height (34" to 38".) You get the idea; lots of constraints. A coincident upper driver makes those upper integration problems go away, and the mid to woofer transition has long enough wavelengths to minimize actual mis-performance. The 2.3 coax incorporated the breakthrough viscous suspension which eliminated the electrical upper crossover, which could have been further refined over time to become a permanent solution. (Jim dreamed of a triax for true point-source propagation.)
However, as first-generation, the 2.3 coax was not mature. The product had the weakest sales of the series 2 generations with a life-span of less than 5 years against 9 for the 2 2 and 8 for the 2.4. The 2.3 was a watershed / breakthrough product introducing technologies that were improved by its successor . . . the CS2.4 became an audiophile darling. 

On a personal note, I was part of 2 2 development; the 2.3 was finalized after my time and its particulars are what I have gathered second-hand.

i thought the 2.4's were fantastic and were a big improvement over the 2.2's.   but every time i moved up (2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.7) in the 2 series the changes were always dramatic. 

The drivers became more rigid, operating more smoothly over a wider band-pass and therefore the compensation networks became fewer and simpler.

I would have thought the extra compensation networks needed for the older drivers would have driven the impedance down, yet the older models had easier impedances.

unsound - I agree. I don't know why Jim designed for such low system impedance. I can speculate that marginally lower distortion in the driver motor may be had via lower driver impedance . . . BUT all the amplification problems caused by low impedance are a huge negative factor in system performance. As I've mentioned, he called those problems "amp problems". I don't know enough to speculate meaningfully. 

Happy Friday - All.

The listening height thread reminded me that I think anyone who finds Thiels to be bright sounding should try fiddling with the height of their seat a bit.  I find this can make a noticeable difference in the balance and it's free.

there is a lot of valuable and useful tips on the Mapleshade website.  here are two that are relevant to the post above:  http://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php

Room Set-up & Speaker Placement Try Near Field Listening

Almost everybody sits way too far from their speakers, that is, 8' to 10' or more. Try a low chair (or floor pillow) 5' away. You’ll hear a phenomenal increase in clarity, bass impact, and soundstage—roughly like spending 100% more on your speakers. Sitting close (aka near-field listening) tremendously reduces all room acoustic problems and the need for expensive room treatments.

Sit Low To The Floor

Nearly everybody sits too high. The "tweeters at ear level" rule sounds logical but almost always fails when tested. Every speaker has a different optimum listening height; if you’re off the optimum ear height, you’re not getting your money’s worth. Test by sitting on one, then two, then three phone books on the floor at your normal listening spot. At the optimum height, you’ll hear an amazing new warmth and fullness in baritone voice, trombones, tenor sax, plucked bass—and a far more natural treble balance.

^Proper driver integration and time synchronization for most Thiel’s works best at least 8’ away for a listener at typical seating height.

i have played with it over the years and found sitting with my ear about 4" below the tweeter and about 7.5'-8' away  from the drivers works best

Prof I am going to miss your 3.7-2.7 comparisons! My 3.7 which were also purchased through Rob are starting to morph, WOW! I have gone back many times to reread everyone's comments and each time i learn and discover more about these fine instruments and our obsession with them.   

Mr Tom Thiel when are you going to work on 2.7 or 3.7 you can put me on the short list ;)   

Yes I am absolutely smitten with my Thiels and will leave them for my kids one day, but here is the Taboo question what is another speaker you would want to own. Maybe with a diffrent trait? I have found I love hearing the Thiels on diffrent gear and switch back a forth. With that i would love to know what this group would choose as an alternate speaker. Here is list I have been playing with  PMC, ATC, Devore, ProAc, Vandersteen.

Dan      

Most of you have identified phase coherence as a necessary ingredient for "reality music", rather than the hi fi approximation. As far as I know, Vandersteen is the only maker other than Thiel who produces actual minimum phase speakers. Their bias is towards "easier", less "incisive", but they are very good. Please advise of any of these other makers are phase coherent transducers.

Dan - the eventual list includes the x.7s. But they are so much more current that I feel obligated to take on older models first.

I have commented previously on listening position. I understand that any particular room and preferences may dictate many different positions. Crossover frequencies x propagation lobing patterns require those distances for proper integration. Anything closer or higher or lower may produce pleasant effects, but will trade off against some of the factors of fidelity.From a scientific standpoint, there is one position that replicates the design goal of minimum phase and flat tonal balance with optimum transient response. That position is minimum 2.5 meters (100"), with 3 meters (10') being a little better with an ear height of 3'±2". The more the distance, the less critical is ear height as well as toe-in.

The coincident upper driver of the x.7s greatly reduce the distance requirement.

Tom

Dunlavy, Duntech, Green Moutain, Meadowlark, Quad 63’s +>, jump to mind.

Dan:  I certainly understand about your speakers starting to morph.   mine were actually pretty bad the first night i heard them but now they are fantastically good.
Jeff Joseph speakers are great and I am adding Magico because I liked what I heard with their new baby speaker, but not enough to want to not keep the 3.7's. O course being a PS Audio guy,   their new AN speakers are sure to be great.  

Dan,
You’re gonna get us kicked off this thread ;-)

I’ve got another long thread going detailing my auditions of many speakers, often comparing against my Thiels. Most don’t fully hold up.I even preferred my Thiels to the latest Magical A3 speaker.

I am however smitten by Joseph Audio Perspective speakers (incredible purity of tone) and Devore Fidelity Orangutan speakers (they sound very organic, richer than most speakers, yet do rhythm/drums etc in a super compelling manner).


Other speakers I really like are ones I own: Waveform (very neutral yet warm tone, image like crazy, very palpable), my MBL 121 omnis (incredible tone, peerless 3 dimensional imaging), and my small little Spendor S3/5 (which are so smooth, open, rich and engaging they always have me wondering at first "Maybe this is all I need!" until I put on content that really needs some bass foundation).  And my Hales Transcendence 1 speakers (which do HT duty, but I often hook them up to my two channel system for a change.  Incredible timbral beauty, rich, spacious, though missing the palpability factor of the Thiels)   All spend some time in my system at one point.

The thing I come back to with the Thiels is the coherence, lack of speaker/box artifacts, tone and density/palpability of the sound.

I've lived with the Pass Labs x150.8 on my Thiel 2.4s for a little over a week now and I am absolutely astonished at what a change this has wrought, both over the Bryston 4b3 which I had for a little over a week and my long term reference, the Aesthetix Atlas.  At first I wondered if the Pass midrange wasn't a bit too ripe and the top was a bit soft but the Pass brings together a density of texture in orchestral swells that sound alot like real symphonic music to me (and I attend about 16 or so Atlanta Symphony concerts every season).  The Bryston sounds thin in the lower midrange than the Pass, again it is a wholly different sound that anyone could recognize over the Bryston.  Its an improvement to a lesser degree over the Aesthetix Atlas as well.  The Pass renders music that is simply beautiful, liquid, incredibly detailed but also with a richness of tone that is hard to describe.  You owe it to yourself to try the Pass on your Thiels.  I am so convinced that I'm contemplating giving the Pass preamp maybe the x12 a try.  Also as a reminder I was prepared to spend more on my amp than the Pass x150.8 buying instead into the XA series of monoblocks but Kent at Pass convinced me to spend alot LESS, convincing me to go with his recommendation.  The x150.8 is plenty of power.  Its not cheap but its just flat out amazing.  You have to hear it.

congrats Pwhinson.  sounds like you hit a home run with the Pass amp.

Professor:  do you have a small stereo shop in your home.   that is a heck of a speaker collection. 

AudioMachina and the original Ohm's with genuine Walsh drivers might be added to the above list of time coherent designs.

speaker grills:  friend or foe.  https://audiophilereview.com/affordable-speakers/speaker-grill-covers-friend-or-foe.html

The Thiel CS 2's grills are an extension of the baffles.

i had forgotten that

Well, it is an older rather unique design.:-)

First, thanks for the jostle of other phase coherent brands. It also seems that some ultra-expensive European brands are honoring the time domain. (Reminder: engage brain before responding) Cheers.

Regarding grille and grille frames - they, like other design elements, offer opportunities to address problems. Thiel did so from early-on.

Thiel's O1 had a reticulated foam grille. For the O1a, we formulated and sculpted the foam to be ultra thin on-axis and 1" thick off-axis, which attenuated the bounce wave along the baffle to reduce edge diffraction. The O1b sported an ALD (Acoustic Loading Device) - a sandwiched filter, attached to the grille which was nearly invisible on-axis, but further reduced baffle waves. The grilles were nearly universally derided, disregarded or discarded, even though they improved performance considerably. 

The O2 had an "ordinary frame" for a fabric grille, since we learned that audiophiles would remove it anyhow.

The O3 and O3a grilles just covered up felt blocks, etc. on the baffle.

The O4's grille was pretty sophisticated, incorporating a tweeter wave guide, woofer edge-softening profile and port impedance-matching flair. We attached it with serious goo which made it evident it belonged on and ugly when taken off.

The CS2 in the mid 80s got more serious as we increased our precision of acoustic measurement and understanding. The tweeter wave guide became more sophisticated; the wave launch profiles of all 3 drivers were supported by the grille frame, the fabric was engineered for transparency on axis and absorption off axis, and the outside edge was engineered to minimizetweeter diffraction. It was successful EXCEPT that Larry Archibald of Stereophile printed multiple critiques of the "harshness" of the CS2. When we all figured out that he used and measured them without grilles, he re-visited their performance, but never admitted his mis-use as causing his problems. He stated that Thiel had upgraded and mitigated the problems he had heard and reported. Hmmm. 

The CS1 series incorporated an even more sophisticated grille for wave launch and baffle vibration damping. 

Similar issues prevailed through the years, with the common thread being that users' preconceptions about the harm of grilles persisted. In the case of Thiel products, the grille was always an integral design element. They were in place during development, voicing and testing. Removing them may provide a more immediate on-axis connection, but problems are always introduced which degrade musicality. More recent models incorporate the wave guides into the baffle, and the grille frames are farther aft, minimizing harm when not used, or non-existent. Newest models use perforated or woven metal, which is more transparent.

One of my intended experiments employs wool felt on baffles. We tried that early-on to good effect, but opted for grille fabric and frame solutions as more cost- effective and good-looking. I'll try some soft baffle ideas on my CS2 2s.

tomthielThank You for today's Thiel Audio history lesson.  Hopefully your examples, as above, will bring out a few of these owners for models 01,02,03,04 and CS1. I always enjoy and find it all fascinating how the older designs made a gateway to the more modern. Whom designed model TT1 after the CS 3.7 ?
Happy Listening!

I'm always happier with a company designs speakers to be used with grills on.   This is because I'm not a fan of seeing the speaker drivers.When I see the drivers, I can't help but become more conscious of the process producing the sound I'm hearing.  The highs are coming from that tweeter, the mids from that woofer in front of me, etc.

Once grills are on the speaker becomes a nice piece of furniture in front of me around and between which the sound is occurring, but it's not obviously being generated by the speaker.  I find this much more conducive to the soundstaging/imaging illusion in audio. 


Also, for me the majority of speakers without grills don't look too great - you get a bit more of the made-in-shop vibe when you can see all the different colored drivers, screws etc.  (Though some can look nice).

Though when it comes to grills, I also much prefer that they not look like an afterthought, as on many speakers:  "Ok, here's a pair of grills you can place over the drivers if you really want to!"   An after-thought looking pair of grills - e.g. one that ruins the nice lines of a speaker by sticking out - can also reduce the aesthetics.


This is one reason why my Thiel 2.7s fit the bill for me in many ways.  They are designed to sound right with the grills on, so I don't have to see the drivers.   And they were designed aesthetically with the grills as part of the design - they are inset into the frame making for beautiful smooth clean, integrated lines. 

prof,

Ditto!

Prof - thank you for your appreciation. The "live with" factor was an integral part of our designs.

Jay - there are two periods of post Jim Thiel designs: the x.7s including the 2.7 and 1.7 and the MCS?.7 prototype. The physical CS2.7 was principally developed in-house by Kathy Gornik, Rob Gillum and Dawn Cloyd in tribute to Jim's practice of incorporating series 3 breakthroughs into the series 2 at lower cost. Part of that cost savings results from minimizing amortization of development costs of series 3 technologies when applied to the series 2. The 2s have always been bargains.
The electrical engineering was done principally by a Canadian consulting engineering company using the Canadian Research Council anechoic chamber and design facilities. I have been told but do not remember the name of that company. A few outside opinions were also solicited, but did not generate material contributions. Serious $6 figures were consumed developing the 2.7, leading to the need to sell the company. The twos had generally been somewhat "easy" since they benefited from the generosity of the threes.

After the sale things happened fast, but of material consequence is that Bob Brown of Boston-area upper mid-fi experience was brought in as consulting operations manager who brought in Steve DeFuria, a long-time Thiel retailer, knowledgeable insider and sales executive with various Boston-area upper mid-fi brands. Bob and Steve hired Mark Mason formerly of PSB and freelance designer for SVS. Mark determined that Jim's phase-time coherence was not important enough to merit the significant difficulties it caused. The new owners wanted to exploit the name and chose to pursue mass-market Chinese-made products.
The 3rd Avenue Series (TT1, etc.) were developed by Mark Mason with help from New Thiel's considerable in-house engineering chops led by Dennis Crosson. The products are commendable for a new market entrant; but the marketplace was flooded with very good ordinary speakers. They spent upwards of $10million doing the dance that many of us witnessed with sadness and chagrin.

Additional factors tied the hands of the new owners, but those remain behind the curtain until answers might come to light. Jim's copious lab documentation is nowhere to be found.

Thanks for asking.  

Meadowlark speakers were also concerned with time alignment/coherence along with exceptional build quality and, depending on your tastes, aesthetics as well.  From what I’ve been able to cull off the interweb thingy, Mr McGinty was a “ poor business man “ who wanted to produce good speakers, period. 

And they are.  From the Kestrels on up they offer remarkably “true” sonics. Although compared to Thiel they struck me as somewhat less lively in the mids and highs, I found them to be one of my personal faves.  My girlfriend still has a pair of Kestrels that I gave her around 5 years ago. While the cabinet veneers could use some refurbishing, the solidity of the cabinets themselves is rather impressive - especially considerate of the fact that they set me back around $500 for the pair. 

Good stuff. 

Thank You, as always, Tom Thiel.
shortly after the TT1 launched, I spoke with several Thiel dealers/retailers, and the response was positive. There were a limited amount of reviews as well. All positive among the Audio press. I wonder how many pairs were built? Sold?  Happy Listening!

oblgny
Good to see you my New York Brother (or north of the Mason-Dixon line).Hope you are well and enjoying Summer with your family. This season is certainly drawing near closure fast, as Fall, approaches.
Happy Listening!

Jay - when Rob had access to the New Thiel cache when they were closing the Nashville facility, he reported that 3 pairs of the series had been sold. There was inventory, but I don't know how much or what became of them. Rob didn't bite.