brettmcee - from the earliest time, we noted that Thiel customers seemed to play by different rules than much of the industry. We chalked that up to Thiel's objective, neutral, no-nonsense approach to our products and our business. We also noted that reviewers of Thiel products shared that same stripe of competence. And the pros who used our speakers to mix and master were first-rate. Tom Jung of DMP was as good as it got in the early days of digital, and various European, especially Scandanavian, recordists produced albums that are still today beyond reproach.
Music brings out the best in us all. And Thiel people are my favorites.
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tomthiel
Thank You for the follow up with Bill Thalmann. I am glad that you guys had a fruitful conversation and trip. His reputation is well documented and regarded in these very Audio forums. I can only imagine the setting of his Hot Rod Garage.
Keep us posted on the modification/over-haul of your Classe' amps.
That brand still has a loyal following to date.
Excited about the future of Thiel Renaissance as well. This outing sounds like a catalyst of good things on the horizon. In fact, I am certain that other Manufacturers would take an interest as information is released within Trade circles. Well Done!
Happy Listening! |
Tom Thiel thanks so much for your journey and updates! Did you or your brother ever consider or build a prototype based on aperiodic enclosure slash vario vent..which when implemented properly seems to greatly reduce the system resonance peak? |
@tomthiel, I’m glad your trip was fruitful. Hopefully we’ve found a resource to help further the Thiel legacy. I’m truly excited by the eq projects.
The more I think about your earlier posts about making the Thiel’s cross-overs external; the more I think this the preferred way of doing things. Perhaps there could be some overlap with such external cross-overs and the eq projects?
With more multi-bit DACs (32 etc.) the more direct drive of amplifiers by such DACS become more viable without risk of bit stripping . Thus making active linestages superfluous in many systems. One concern is that the otherwise preferred balanced outputs with their higher output voltages might still need too much attenuation to avoid the aforementioned bit stripping. Of course, amps such as the Benchmark with adjustable input solve this issue, but this very useful feature is unfortunately not all that common. Perhaps some sort of attenuation option on the proposed eq’s could facilitate such a system arrangement? |
JAFant and all. I also want to express my appreciation for this thread and all of you who contribute your thoughts, knowledge and inputs here and behind the curtain. Without you I would not have imagined this slowly emerging Thiel Renaissance venture. The weeding that you guys have done to find products compatible with and complementary to Thiel loudspeakers would be hard to replicate, actually impossible given the constraints of real life. Likewise your generosity with time and "surplus" products have been transformative. The 6 pair of classic Thiels in my stable all came through this thread. In fact, this thread is my only virtual presence and it connects us all quite well. Thank you.
Your introduction to Bill Thalmann of Music Technologies hit the bull’s-eye. I visited Bill in Springfield VA on Friday to pick up my Sony SCD-1 with refurbished mechanics and CD section, and a neat closed door on the SACD section. I also dropped off the full set of Classé amplification and the Philips CD-80 player for upgrade evaluation. These were Thiel’s 1990 entré into affordable high performance and have served me since. This gear will continue onward as an alternate source to my Benchmark chain. I know it intimately and expect the upgrades to bring it into the modern era.
A word about Bill and his operation. Cool. His 5 (or so) person operation repairs, restores, upgrades and maintains (electric) musical instruments, stage gear, hi fi and professional electronics. There’s a candy store of gear for sale plus multiple work stations that include binocular microscopes, solder stations, scopes and computers and tons of parts and components. The place exudes detailed, focused work.
The order of the day was to assess Bill’s interest in participating in the Thiel Renaissance project. He is interested. As a starting point, he will make a professional assessment of the CS3.5 equalizer which I left along with a user-generated reverse engineered schematic. We are exploring ways and means to accomplish the bass-boost task with possibly more sophistication, including a balanced option. Step one is to learn what Bill thinks of Jim’s work - design, execution, performance including technical and listening evaluations. Jim approached his work very carefully designing his circuitry without op-amps, etc. toward very high performance at moderate cost - like his speakers. That was 1975-1985; the 3.5 was his last equalized product. I am re-evaluating use of an equalizer because it was central to Jim’s insight and holistic approach. It’s death in Thieldom was never joyful. Design and Marketing perspectives diverged, in diplomatic-speak. My own direct comparisons using the model 02 as ported vs sealed re-affirm my desire to offer sealed bass, possibly with equalizers in models that never had one. My present work uses the model 02 as a test bed and proof-of-concept workhorse. Depending on particulars, Bill might prototype an 02 EQ. Imagine that.
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brettmcee
Thank You for the kind regards. When I kicked off this thread back in 2016, I wanted to establish a place for Thiel Loudspeaker-minded People to gather. As it turns out, there are quite a few of Us. Our hobby is about enjoying the Gear and the Music.
Happy Listening! |
Thiel people are the best peoples…
By far, this the most non-judgemental, polite, honest, kind and most supportive thread/forum I have been a part of in my 11 years of being serious about my audiophilia.
It’s always a pleasure to check in and see how everyone is doing.
Thanks Thiel peoples!!! If any of you are ever in Burbank CA, come on over and we’ll listen to some tunes. 😎 |
harrylavo
Excellent commentary. I hope that you are well and enjoying the Fall season.
Happy Listening! |
Tony -
Don't be so self-effacing. The fact is that much of what gets ascribed to gear in our hobby is really the result of other things. I think until you read or take a course in microphones and recording, room treatment, and psychological deception, you leave yourself open as an audiophile. And I am not in the "everything is the same" camp at all .... just wise to the kind of thing you have observed and many others here have mentioned.
Thanks for your observation. |
tonywinga,
yes I think we are listening for the same thing. I am just the peanut gallery so you can ignore me lol.
Having had my Thiels in 4 different rooms now it is amazing how different every room sounded in the bass region. I have also found that different speakers seem to get the same peaks and valleys in the frequency in the same room while being totally different designs.
A hard lesson for me to lean, buying “better” speakers to have the same issue in the bass.
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duegi,
I used a McIntosh MC462 on a pair of Thiel 2.4s for about 6 months and really liked the combination. Try to 2 ohm tap on the MC462. I found the highs softer and more relaxed on the 2 ohm tap.
They are hard to find used but a pair of 3.7s with subs could be end game speakers. |
duegi
Welcome! Good to see you found Us. Reading through this thread, you will find, many 3.6 owners on the Panel. Your system is very nice as well. Always good to read about another CD/SACD player fan. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes.
Happy Listening! |
New Thiel CS3.6 owner per the recommendation of a friend who has owned Thiel speakers since the early 1980’s. I had not gone swimming in the audio deep end for a while and jumped in head first last month. Bought a brand new McIntosh C22 mark5 feeding into a MC462 as I wanted the warmth of the tube pre and the power to support most any listening need with a big SS amp. Picked up a Yamaha CD-S2100 from a local friend and still have a family passed down Garrard 301 for my vinyl.
I was looking around for some speakers to do the burn in before I started seeking a permanent fix for what to speaker to pair with the McIntosh set up. Low and behold a buddy says take a look at these Thiel cs3.6, they’ll work perfect for burn in and you might just like them so much you hang onto them. Using some older tara labs interconnects and speaker wires for now as well.
Same friend recommend staying with copper interconnects to maintain the warm sound of the tube pre. Also mentioned beware as the Thiel’s would expose any weak links in the set up. Not worrying about streaming yet but will after a bit.
Day three of the burn in and my does this system sound great, I’m looking forward to it getting weathered and improving. Huge difference from the upstairs Anthem system which has plenty of power but just doesn’t give the detail, richness, and depth of the music.
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To make sure we are talking the same thing- on the first track, the bass drum comes in at 28 seconds. It is a double tap through out the song.
I listened to some of the Nameless album. Interesting and well recorded. The vocals are very intimate.
I will order some more acoustic diffusers for the side walls. I have been thinking about that. |
Some music to try. Not really what I like to listen to musically but it has amazing detail and texture.
Dominique Fils-Aime’ “Nameless” album. This album is demo worth and has the same type of low level details and texture in the drums/bass. I think you will find the audiophile aspects of it pretty good… |
tonywinga,
I understand now what you meant by bass improvement. Most people just mean more or harder impact and subs will do both for you.
I am listening to the Stanley Clarke “East River Drive” album now listening for what you describe (new music to me thanks!). It is very subtle and I wonder if that “skin” sound is actually a little higher up in frequency as a secondary sound.
I turned off my subs and high-passed the mains at 135hz and I feel like I could still hear it. Broke out the digital EQ and it might be in the 200-500k range. Hard to say and the detail is very low level.
I switched over to a pair of Grado PS500e which I often hear that type of stuff on. I could hear it on the headphones but it did not stand out any more. I expected it too on headphones as they are more detailed in the bass.
I think this type of detail retrieval is getting into super speaker territory and will cost a lot of money lol.
Heavy room treatments (I see you have treated a bit already) with wide band absorption on the side walls might help pull that kind of stuff out more. Something like a high number of GIK 244 panels or even something thicker as reflection panels to knock down the bass reverb. |
tonywinga
I concur about Stanley Clarke discs being excellent tools for system evaluation. His CD/SACD titles are well-produced, well- recorded.
Have fun!
Happy Listening! |
2nd Note;
as above, it does indeed take a super-loudspeaker such as a Vandersteen Model 7 Series or Wilson Alexia (or higher) to give any Thiel Audio a proper foot race.
There is something to be said for Jim's historic designs. And our beloved loudspeakers. Enjoy the Music.
Happy Listening! |
tonywinga
Thank You for sharing your Thiel vs. Wilson story. Our tastes are similar in Music reproduction. We strive for that last Nth of information. I am striving for hearing the skin of a Bass drum or finish of a Brass instrument as well. No doubt that top-tier gear will retrieve the inner detail must of us crave. Reference cabling is the last link of any Audio chain that binds the Aural capabilities.
Good to read that all of your efforts are paying off, sonically.
Happy Listening! |
Thank you for sharing. Using subs adds a lot of flexibility to tuning the system to the room. I also experimented with speaker/sub placement. I like the Thiel's well away from the back wall to create a deep and wide soundstage but that does lean out the bass a bit. So the subs ended up close to the back wall and toed in just a bit. I wouldn't think that toeing in subs would matter but it seems to help. The bass is very satisfactory, very good now in my system. I happened to take a CD by Stanley Clark titled East River Drive, with me last summer when auditioning the Alexia's. I played the first track and I could hear the skin of the bass drums on the Alexia's. The Alexia's bass is very fast and crisp. That sound was very apparent. I now have my system to the point that playing this same track sounds really close to that of the Alexia's but I listen for the skin of the bass drums and that detail it is almost there but not as obvious. This is the difference that I'm talking about. And that difference could be due to the D'Augustino amps driving the Alexia's vs. my Pass Labs Amps at home- or the DCS DAC at the store vs my Ayon DAC or a hundred other things. Think of the bitter disappointment were I to bring the Alexia's home just to learn that I need different amps. This is the thing about Thiel speakers. It will be very expensive to find a speaker that can surpass the Thiels in every way. And then I heard the new Vandersteen Model 7 XTRM speakers in August. They sound better to me than the Alexia's... |
james633
Thank You for sharing your impressions and thoughts on CS 2.4 loudspeakers. Your ears do not deceive. The CS 2.4 is not Bass-shy (weak). Nor are the CS 2.7 and CS 3.7, which can accommodate higher rated Power amps. An inherent room and/or room treatments can add to the Aural experience.
Happy Listening! |
tonywinga,
We have conversed in other threads regarding the bass of wilson vs Thiel. I am still surprised you are wanting of bass owning two subs.
A few thoughts, have you measured your room? You could have a hole in the bass. I struggle with a 10db dip from 60-70hz in my room regardless of whether I ran the mains full range or highpass the subs. I really had to move my speakers around to get rid of it. Could be as simple as a db meter and a test tone track streamed.
I started with my mains the audiophile way, way out into the room. 6’ off the rear wall and my subs 39” off from the driver face. At one time I had the speakers 7.5’ off the front wall and the sub right beside the mains and also tried the subs 24” off the front wall with the mains at 7.5’. So my point is I have had them all over the room. But I measured each setup and the 60-70hz dip was persistent.
Then I set my mains only 24” (from the driver face) off the front wall… and got flat bass. It sounded ok too but a hair chesty/boxy. I then broke out the calculator and started figuring out distance and wave lengths I was canceling to put some science behind it. My final solution was to put the subs at 24” off the wall and my mains at 43.5” off the wall. Using a 60hz crossover point puts the long waves out of the subs and the shorter waves out of the mains. 43’ seems to be enough not to cancel at 60hz-90hz. Between 24” and 6.5’ is no man’s land where bass does odd stuff. Don’t forget the ceiling and wall distance sum too and they are normally fixed.
Here is the kicker. I bought a pair of Revel 228be about a month ago and we’ll they have the exact same issue. Dip in the bass between 60-70hz. After a week of moving them around I also ended up with the subs 24” off the front wall and the speakers 43.5 off the front wall. The room wins every time. You could buy new speakers to end up having the same bass issues you have now.
Another example:
I alway struggled for bass slam with my 2.4 in my main listening room. A few weeks ago I put the 2.4s in the living room for the wife (she loves them) and I placed them 24” off the wall so the kids don’t bump into them running around playing and guess what? Crazy bass, I mean wow wall shaking bass, with slam I have never heard come out of a thiel. I am talking subwoofer type bass. So I took out the db meter and ran some sweeps. Flat bass to 40hz and down 6db at 33hz. No dip at all between 40-90hz. The room is 26’x19’x8’ with the speakers centered on the long wall and the rear wall opens to the rest of the house. Lots of furniture in the room and kids toys everywhere, total mess, no extra charge for room “treatments” lol. Again just comes down to the room.
These days I have grown somewhat tired of chasing gear. At this point I am looking at spending most of my further budget on the room. |
Interesting conversation about the Wilson’s. I heard the Alexia 2’s for the first time about 10 months ago and auditioned them in depth in June. The Alexia’s have fantastic bass. The mids and highs sounded faster than the Thiels but the Thiels have better imaging and vocals, I thought. Since then I replaced the carpeting with hardwood in my listening room and adjusted my subs to improve the bass and added dedicated power lines. The wood floor made the Thiels sound faster. The dedicated power lines helped too.
I too thought the Thiel’s tweeters were lacking and still a bit harsh until I added the Niagara Power Conditioner with a Hurricane Power Cord. The highs are creamy smooth now. My lust for the Alexia’s is waning as I have made these progressive improvements to my room and system. The bass is much improved but still not quite the caliber of the Alexia’s but I feel like I would be giving up a lot to gain that little bit better bass. I plan to make another audition in December perhaps. |
I like the newer Wilsons a fair amount. I just love the Steen's, but I could easily own a pair of Wilsons. My buddy just reviewed the Sophia 3 for TAS and I think he's going to get a pair of Alexa's potentially.
The Nyquist showed up today. I thought I could use the volume control, but just read that it's not meant to run directly to the amp. I could have sworn I read that it did. Now I need ot get a used preamp, balanced and zero feedback (or possibly a used balanced Tortuga passive) to run until the pre I want to get is finished. Oh vey... ha... I'll use the balanced headphone out at least. |
jcatral14
Good to see you again. Do you have an opportunity to audition the Sophia3 before purchase ? If so, spend as much time as possible with that loudspeaker. James633 laid out insightful notes that are direct and informative regarding Wilson Audio. Much like a Thiel, these are beautiful speakers that deserve the best gear to make them sing (no pun).
Above all, no Wilson Audio model is complete without Transparent Audio cabling. Another proposition to keep in mind. An important one.
Keep us posted as you demo the Sasha3. I would like to read your impressions and thoughts. Have fun on your Audio journey.
Happy Listening! |
james633
Good to see you here, as always. Thank You for sharing your impressions and thoughts on Wilson Audio. I can attest to your findings on the Sasha. I have also spent time with Sophia prior to purchasing my Thiel loudspeakers.
At this level (Thiel, Vandersteen, Wilson), proper audition time is paramount. Each loudspeaker is excellent in its own way. We all hear and interpret differently. Overall, it is a matter of taste, musically speaking.
Happy Listening! |
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jcatral14,
It was a longtime ago but I made notes that day and still have them (sometimes it helps to be a dork). I demoed the Sophia 3 and Thiel 3.7 in the same room, same system, moving each speaker out of the way for each demo. I switched back and forth for roughly 3 hours. The next day I went back and did the same with the Sophia 3 and 802D2. I have also owned the Thiel 2.4 for 10+ years and it sits in one of my secondary systems now (Revel 228be with JL subs in my main system).
So these comments are from notes made the day of. The Thiels were setup with 10-15 degrees of toe in and wilson had heavy toe in to cross just behind the listening seat. Again same room roughly the same spot on the floor. Also used multiple amps. musical fidelity and ARC front ends, tried both on both speakers. The room was large (20x30x15ish) and the speakers were in the middle of the room with the seats on the back 3rd. I sat 10-12’ away.
- tonal balance: the Sophia’s have hard hitting slamming bass compared to the Thiels. Shook the room with what seems like much deeper notes. The 3.7 seemed a little light in the bass in direct comparison. The week before (yes 3 days total) the Thiels in isolation had great bass. The mids and highs seemed to have comparable tonal balance to me. Nothing stood out on either other than the bass on the Sophia 3
-sound stage: The 3.7 has noticeably wider soundstage but less center focus. The singer was a hair more collapsed to the speakers on the 3.7. The center focus on the Sophia was somewhere between the 3.7 and 802D but the singer stood center stage better than the 3.7. The 3.7 sound stage was wider and much more stable. Moving my head did not change it much. The Sophia 3 on the other hand changed and collapsed with my movement. If I sat up or leaned to one side I could heard a clear shift in sound. The mids and tweeter blended well but on a much smaller window and I had to be in the pocket for the drivers to blend well. The Sophia will be harder to setup for sure. But I like the center focus of them. In the sweet spot they were great. As a side note I feel like sometimes deep male voices would collapse to the bass driver on the 3.7.
-details: this was a tie for me.
-enjoyment: that day I came away liking the Sophia 3 a lot more. I put a very high priority on bass and the Sophia was great and at the time the best bass I had heard. Now in a smaller room would it be problematic? Maybe. The Thiel would also gets some room gain… so hard to say.
-my general thoughts. The Thiel is a near perfect speaker imo. Really no flaw but sometimes extra bass is what I want. The Wilsons are clearly voiced to make vocals pop and bass slam and deviate from perfection but they were more enjoyable as I am not an objectivist. After the demo I bought a pair of JL subs (use a high-pass) and was happy for a long time. Being able to tune the bass in my room both for nodes and taste really stopped be from upgrading for a longtime.
Since then I have heard most of the Wilsons under $70k and since owning subs I have not been as impressed with them. Still one of my favorite speaker brands but their prices are silly and a pair of Thiels or Revels with subs still challenge anything on the market imo. Where I think the Thiels are showing their age is in the highs. Some of the new tweeter are simply fantastic.
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@jcatral14 I hope you can audition the Sophia before committing. I’ve not heard the Sophia but I have heard W/P 7, W/P 8, Sasha, and Maxx. I’ve also not heard the 3.6 but have owned the 1.6 and 2.4 plus heard 3.7 and 7.2. IMO, Wilsons are good but not worth the price. They do have heroic cabinets, probably their biggest strength and one reason for the price. They also seem to have quality passive parts but I’m not a fan of their driver choices. One thing I’ve heard on Wilsons that I’ve not heard on anything else is a profound sense of the hall space on live recordings. That’s a really cool trick . . . but probably an artifact of the midbass bump.
For about the same price, I would rather have killer electronics mated to Thiels than modest electronics mated to Wilsons. But you won’t know until you can hear the Sophias.
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@ctsooner , I couldn’t agree more, but it’s curious how many that don’t appreciate the time coherence assume that there wouldn’t be cross appreciation of the brands by the owners of each. I regularly read of people that have or do own both. FWIW, I think the Dunlavy’s are in the mix, and perhaps even more so for Thiel owners.
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Guys, my observation from afar is that you guys are like we Vandersteen owners. The major reason we are so drawn to these two designs are because they are time and phase correct. It's the only reason I find other GREAT speakers not my favorite or where I put my money.
I know a ton of Vandersteen owners who have owned original Thiels and visa versa. It's very rare that someone who owns Thiels won't also like Vandersteen's and visa versa. That's not marketing hype, that's really life listening. Not everyone hears the difference between a phase and time correct speaker, but I bet 95% or more of you folks on this thread do. JMHO
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Hi guys,
Been a while. Hope all is well. Still here and lurking mostly. I still have my 3.6 which I have had for around 20 years now. However, I am presented with an opportunity to get a Sophia 3 so I'm at a crossroad. Not sure if I should do it or not...
Any firsthand experience with switching from a 3.6 to a Sophia or something else? Thanks,
jay
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yyzsantabarbara
Thank You for the CODA update. There are a few threads over on Audio Asylum referring the Gustard X26 Pro for those interested.
Happy Listening! |
ctsooner
Nice score! on the Brinkmann. Keep me posted as you massage the DAC into your room/system.
Happy Listening! |
@tomthiel I am listening to the DAC3B as I type this. I was listening to the warmer Gustard X26 Pro DAC all day. However, whenever I listen to the DAC3B it just seems to sound right to me, especially on pop and rock music. Same CS3,7 system, both DACs on XLRs to my CODA 07x preamp connected to a CODA #8 amp.
BTW - I hope they do not change the current AHB2. Maybe another new model with more power but keep the AHB2 as is. Even though the AHB2 mono and stereo is not my best for the Thiel CS3.7 I think it is just fine the way it sounds now for other speakers. |
UPDATE:
I order of the DAC's I probably want that are under 22k list (based on my own listening, hearing the lower end product and reading reviewers who have review both and I agree with the review of the lower price unit as well as my own ears)
Playback Designs Dream DAC
Brinkmann Nyquist
Rockna Waverdream
I had a few folks get in touch with me asking if I wanted to purchase their DAC/s. One was a situation where he has to sell off his system. That was a Rockna Wavedream.
The second was the Brinkmann Nyquist mk2 with latest upgrade. I got a message from a nice guy in WI who was willing to sell his for a 'fair' price. I know a few of the Brinkmann dealers and they said the for a 5 month old used Nyquist, that was a fair price. For some reason, I didn't jump at this and I waited a few days. I then got an email from someone I don't know telling me that a dealer in Canada had a demo unit he needed to move. It was upgraded to the Mk2 with all the upgrades and it was 2k lower than the unit from WI. I called and quickly agreed to purchase the unit. He was the one who told me about the Playback Design Dream. He loves the Brinkmann, but wanted to bring in the other DAC. It's too new to find any used and even if used, it would be out of my range (10k or less).
Right after I told the dealer I'd purchase his demo unit, I got another email from someone who heard I had interest in the Rockna Wave if I could find one. I have heard their other DAC and loved it, especially for the price. I could have gotten it for a steal, but even at that, the Brinkmann was a better price and also a better value. I know it plays great with Vandersteen's (or Thiels).
It gets here on Friday afternoon. I have to have my server builder come over to make some adjustments in my server. He's installing a whole new USB card. I am not sure which one, but he said it's not cheap, but it's the best USB solution he's heard to date. He also going to do some more upgrades.
I'm pumped and can't wait to get the new DAC in the system. Back to your thread! :). |
I have an Altmann dac but instead of 1 dac chip I have a tower of 12 with Zfoil resistors all in place powered by an outboard power supply supplemented with a capacitor bank of 100k uf by- passed with film caps all treated with 1260 Elixir. The dac filter is custom programmed by Altmann.
All this is mounted on a Star Sound Sistrum platform..sounds nice.. Tom |
I am remembering that BM uses 4 chips per channel - from their website:
"Four balanced 32-bit D/A converters are summed together to create each
balanced analog output. This 4:1 summation provides a 6 dB noise
reduction, and gives the DAC3 industry-leading performance."
Let's see what Bill says.
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much of DAC sound are the filters employed, especially with a time and phase correct speaker…as is the domain of the thread….
Ditto for negative feedback, etc…
I digress.. |
With respect to DACs: my advice is to not get hung up on the chip set. In my opinion, much more important than the particular chip that has been utilized is its implementation, the op amps employed, etc ... Two different manufacturers DACs using the same chip set can very easily present with very different personalities. It's not all about the chip. Just my 2 cents. |
tomthiel
Thank You for the Bill Thalmann update. Good to read that part of your SCD-1 has been resuscitated.
Keep me posted on your upgrade(s) to Classe' gear as well.
Safe travels.
Happy Listening! |
How much more for the better dac chip, 20 bucks at their cost a hundred bucks at retail? Time for the next model at a higher price that they could already be selling today. Tom
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Tom,
Excellent! I haven’t changed from my "well, that’s it" initial impression of the DAC3B since putting it in my system a few years ago. But you know how it is, there always seems to be somewhere over the rainbow. |
I approached Benchmark about audiophile upgrades such as this opportunity and/or a higher power AHB-2 or higher-end caps, etc. John Siau is convinced that the present level of performance is optimized. I've been told there is not a DAC4 in the works.
I'll ask Bill if he thinks the higher-performing chip would be a drop-in improvement. I'll report back, since I would be a likely first user.
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@unsound --
As for the Benchmark DACs; while I realize that a DAC is more than the
sum of it’s parts, I find it irksome that Benchmark chooses to cheap out
and use the lesser Sabre chips when much less expensive DACs use the
the top of the line Sabre chips.
Hmm .. do I sense a modding opportunity here? |
Thank you all for your thoughts on DACs. I've read some reviews on your selections and they sound like very solid buys. This helps me put things in perspective. I'll be using the Benchmark DAC3-B for my and my collaborators' work, but learning who's who in today's marketplace helps me find my bearings.
Tomorrow I drive to Virginia to meet with Bill Thalmann of Music Technologies, pick up my Sony SCD-1 (CD only working) and drop off my Classé gear for optimization work. Back home by Monday night.
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While there are arguments to be made for either separate transports and DAC’s, or all in one players, but ultimately I think that all in one players with input capabilities tend to be the value leaders. Digital products tend to hold their value much less than other audio gear, and IME are the products that need replacement the most often, Let the buyer beware. As has already been noted few separate DAC’s are capable of SACD playback.
As for the Benchmark DACs; while I realize that a DAC is more than the sum of it’s parts, I find it irksome that Benchmark chooses to cheap out and use the lesser Sabre chips when much less expensive DACs use the the top of the line Sabre chips. |
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@tomthiel A friend of mine who owns the DAC3B told me that it is thin on the bottom. He is a musician and knows more than me on how instruments and voices should sound. I also own the DAC3B and like the sound, it is clear, powerful, and fatigue free for me. I can see why people think it does not have a rich thick sound.
My Gustard X26 Pro was preferred by my friend over the DAC3B. He says it has the bottom that the DAC3B does not have. I like both DACs. I tend to listen to the DAC3B with my more warmer gear, such as KRELL which also has a lot of bass.
The Gustard is $1500 and a bit lower in cost to the DAC3B. |
tomthiel
Good to see you this fine Fall evening. I hope that you are well and the search for Garage/Studio space is fruitful.
Happy Listening!
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