No, I don't know. There are many things that would be nice to know, but I wasn't there, Rob doesn't know, Tim Tipton, our purchasing manager who retired around 2005 might know (or have known), but there's no practical way to track that down. Bill T. didn't have much to say except that putting more money into the player with a non-repairable SACD section wasn't advisable. Events recede and memory fades.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,494 responses Add your response
jafant - That SCD-1 in on the shelf awaiting the right opportunity to set it up. That was Thiel's unit that I took to Bill Thalmann two years ago. He failed to salvage the SACD side, and he said the CD side had been well hot-rodded. I picked it up last Thanksgiving, which is after I lost my studio space. I'll put it in service this fall. But that doesn't address my desire to have something to tickle the ears of musicians and other non-audiophiles for better than expected playback at an affordable price. An old skinflint can't be cured, I guess. |
@tomthiel Playback of SACD disks via a disk player using an external DAC is a special use case. To my knowledge, there are essentially 2 ways to turn this trick aside from the PS Audio solution, both require that the disk player have an HDMI output (such as a SACD capable Blu Ray player like the Oppo’s). To use the HDMI output directly requires a DAC with an HDMI input, such as a Bryston BDA3 or a NAD M51 (which like the Oppo is discontinued). The second is to use something like the Geerfab D.BOB (digital breakout box), which is a $1000 item, and sits between your SACD player with HDMI output and a DSD capable DAC which supports DOP (DSD over PCM). There are modestly priced SACD capable Blu Ray players which can serve as your transport. A totally different approach, and the one I utilize myself, is to rip the DSD layer from the SACD, and then stream to a DSD capable DAC. If interested in this later approach, PM me, and I’ll be happy to point you in the right direction.
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@tomthiel, There aren’t many transports that will output native SACD, etc., and those that do are usually more expensive. The closest machine than comes to mind for those prerequisties is the Oppo 105. The Oppo 105 can output SACD but might require a bit of technical gymnastics to do so. The Oppo 105 also does analog output, as well as high quality video and HDCD too. Oppo is out of the a/v business, but it is still offering quality customer support. Cambridge offered some transports, but some of those were just stripped down Oppos. Though I have no hands on experience with some of the new transports available, multiple reports of quality control issues with some, some use unappealing to me feeder loading, most just don’t appear to be very good values to me. |
Guys - I'm shopping for ideas. In assembling a system approachably priced for musicians and other non-audiophile music lovers, I hope to find a CD transport of merit. My hope is to find a good player for CD - with a plus for SACD, DVD-A, etc. A digital output via S/P-DIF and/or USB is necessary, but analog conversion/ outputs are not. The transport can't cost more than a $ thousand or two, hopefully less. Any ideas? Thanks |
tomthiel
Thank You for the initial impressions and thoughts on Adcom GFA 555 JW upgraded amp. Certain brands of gear are All-Time classics. The fact that someone can "mod" specific equipment makes it even sweeter. I look forward in reading more about your visit with Mr. Bill Thalmann in October.
Happy Listening! |
Adcom amps - a fair question is why. In a world with new low-distortion amps and Benchmark’s AHB2 selling for $3K, why bother with vintage amps? We recently recommended an Adcom GFA 555 mkII as a viable, low-cost choice. I compared my 555mkII to an available 555 (straight), and bought a second 555 to keep while the original 555 was upgraded by Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades in Carlsbad CA. Turns out the newer 555 sounded a little more threadbare / forward than the older unit. I got that older 555 back from Jim yesterday and did some listening. He replaced some caps and transistors with high-performance, low noise ones. I asked for a run-down of his upgrade (which hasn’t come yet). However we know he increased the bandwidth from its previous 3Hz-150KHz to 1Hz - 300KHz. The noise floor went from quite noticeable to hardly audible. The charge and decay speeds are faster. As I’ve mentioned, Jim rebuilds / upgrades recording consoles and other pro devices. His parts choices are best-of-form ’conventional’ choices with a goal of improving the technical performance and sound quality toward ultra-clean at ’affordable’ cost. This upgrade cost $225 plus freight. I listened via StraightWire Rhapsody 3 throughout. Speaker cable is Octave II. SW has survived my trials as extremely good, plus I know it from years of use. So I side-stepped the newer Iconoclast offerings in favor of familiarity. The overall character of the GFA 555 (stock or upgraded) is similar to the BM AHB2, that is clean, clear, no-nonsense, factual and without editorial character. JW’s upgrade brought the 555 closer to the AHB2 by a lot. I could not claim to differentiate between the AHB and 555 in blind testing. However, I could easily blind-pick the stock vs upgraded 555. Stock is less definitive, less authoritative and less satisfying while having a slightly looser bass and slight upper midrange glare / shimmer that obscures detail. I have not yet found time to compare the 555 mkII. I will report on that when I’ve put it in the mix. The only Adcom amps Jim upgrades are the GFA 555 and GFA 545. Back to the question of why Adcom. Someone looking to supply a clean signal to any Thiel speaker would do well with the Adcom GFA555 with Jim Williams’ Audio Upgrade. Although Adcom was barely hi-fi, this may be its best amp, and this upgrade increases its performance considerably; and its high sales count supports multiple service and upgrade possibilities in the marketplace. I’ll be sending my second 555 to Jim for more magic. Who knows, I might take one to Virginia when I visit Bill Thalmann at Music Technology in October. Cheers, Tom
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oblgny
Welcome! Back my New York Brother. Always good to see you today. Of course you guys can list gear for acquisition here. The best place to sell Audio wares is U.S. Audiomart. If one requires a global audience then eBay is unsurpassed.
I hope that you are well and enjoying Summer as it draws to close soon. Happy Listening! |
Hey kids! It's been a while since I've posted anything here, and it's been an equal length of while since I've sold anything here. I don't know WTF A'gon has done to the site since I've been more or less MIA, but I've been trying to list a pair of CS2.4's for two days now and I keep running into obstacles listing them. First, the site rejected my password to login. I have not changed it since I joined. New password? Three attempts before it finally acknowledged that I am myself. I get 90% through my listing, drop the photos into it, then I get to the final steps. I am supposed to receive a code for verification, again proving that I am myself, and I receive "cannot send verification code." Everything drops absolutely dead in the water there. Anyway, if any member here is looking for a very decent pair of CS2.4's and lives in or close enough to NY to pick them up, look on Audiomart. I am route 25 there. I am giving up on trying to get them listed here. PS: I just added a Pro Ject Debut EVO turntable to my system, along with a Pro Ject DS tubed phono box. Cheap seats really good stuff. Listening to vinyl once gain is a treat. Enjoy the upcoming Labor Day weekend, everyone! |
danomar
Welcome! Good to see you here. The good news is that there are many Thiel loudspeakers fans and owners around metro Atlanta. We have several members on the Panel. There are a few outside of Atlanta as well. You are among friends. I would contact Alan at Hifi Buys as above. He may have a list of old clients. If that does not work out, contact Mike at Wolf Song Audio 678.939.2133 north of Atlanta.
Should you need additional assistance, contact me anytime. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes. Happy Listening!
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@jonandfamily I remember Audio Alternative well! We both are showing our ages by that reference. HiFi Buys is not quite the same, sadly. If no one locally pops up, I might take you up on your kind offer. |
@danomar If you're ever 150 miles west in Birmingham, you can come by and listen to my CS3.6s. See my virtual system for details. It was at Audio Alternative in your hometown of Lilburn that started my passion for Thiel. The setup was Thiel SCS4s powered by an ARC VSi60 integrated amp and Rega Apollo source. It was magical how the speakers simply disappeared and the soundstage expanded well outside of the speakers. Alan Jones has since moved downtown to HiFi Buys. |
Are there any Thiel owners in the Metro Atlanta (GA) area willing to let me audition their CS1.x, CS2.x, or CS3.x speakers? My attempt at a brief explanation: I love the wide, open soundstage and treble articulation of my Dahlquist DQ-10s but want more overall tonal balance—especially in the midrange. I have a set of Acoustic Research AR90s which are fantastic but do not have a similar soundstage. The AR90s also need to be played somewhat loudly to sound right. I recently got a set of Vandersteen 2Ce Signature IIs: The soundstage is nearly as good as the DQ-10s (a bit too center focused but still good) with very good overall neutral tonal balance. The Vandersteens are a bit weak in the bass and I find my subwoofers (SVS SB3000s) help most of the time. Mostly. I have realized that most of my listening (at least 50% jazz, a mix otherwise) is at moderate listening levels. That is why I opted for the Model 2 Vandersteens. I rarely get my preamp (Luxman 5C50 running Luxman B-12s) past its second volume detent. Thiels have always been on my radar but they are rarely available in this area. I like the CS3.5 and up but think they might be too similar to the AR90s in the sense that I will need to play them loudly to sound good. It seems the CS2.x series is equivalent to the Vandersteen 2Ce series but perhaps with better treble and wider soundstage. I also am interested in the CS1.x series in the chance that a smaller speaker might suit most of my listening habits better. Alternative insight is, of course, welcomed. I have figuratively painted myself into a corner of sorts. |
My apologies to interject at this point of the discussion.
More than 10 days ago, I was inspired by Tom and got curious about the Benchmark DAC3 B. So, I contacted my local dealer to arrange for a home audition for the DAC. I replaced my T+A DAC 8 DSD with Benchmark DAC3 B. Right now, my Thiel CS 2.7 are driven fully with Benchmark DAC 3 B, LA4 preamplifier, and AHB2 power amplifier mono pairs.
I played a few music tracks in my playlist. Track after track, my jaw dropped lower and lower and it hit the floor. The amount of musical detail retrieved with the DAC3 B is astonishing! Along with that, it feels like CS 2.7 is rejuvenated, energetic, and lively! I am rediscovering music, as well as renewing my vow for CS 2.7.
I am very happy with this setup and I cannot imagine upgrading or "side-grading" the components for the next two to five years.... unless maybe Benchmark releases a newer and improved product. I am a proud owner of Benchmark DAC3 B. I implore fellow Thiel speaker owners with Benchmark components to give it a try! |
@stanleym9999, Thanks. I might have mistakenly called Alpha-Core’s zobles "L-C networks", I think they call them R-C networks(?). |
stanleym9999 - I'll add a little to the cabling advice.In my cabling comparisons I like StraightWire. It helps to use the ame product family that Jim used in designing the product. At this time, I asked Steven Hill for his recommendation. He supplied the following as incorporating all of his relevant technologies before climbing the cost wall to get in his words "different preferential sonic flavors". I use Rhapsody 3 RCA interconnects and Octave II (now I believe III) speaker cables. |
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@stanleym9999, I’d be curious to know the output impedance of your SET preamp? |
@stanleym9999 , The T200 was designed by Michael Bladelius, and used IGBT devices which Nelson Pass was not a fan of.
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@stanleym9999, IME good cables can be can be had for much less money. The savings might be put to better use elsewhere. May I offer for consideration : Alpha-Core Goertz MI series. Alpha-Core used Thiel as a reference. Jim Thiel reccommended the Alpha-Core’s, and the Alpha-Core’s are known to be a good match with Threshold. I strongly urge you to use Alpha-Core’s "L-C networks" (AKA: zobels), especially with wide bandwidth amps such as the Thresholds (at least the earlier models were, not so sure about the post Nelson Pass models). Another good match, previsoulsy used by Jim Thiel are the Straightwire Maestro’s. Also, your Thiel’s are internally wired with Straightwire
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-All currently auditioning speaker cables for my 3.5s. Components in the mix include Threshold T200, N.E.W. P3 SET Tube Preamp. Room size 12 x 18, acoustically treated. Evaluating Synergistic Research Foundation and PAD Aqueous cables, but wondering about Cardas? Others? I'd like to keep the cost south of $5K thanks for your feedback
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TomD - I interpret what you're saying as decoupling the crossover from its environment via optimal tuning, such as the various mass/stiffness springs tend to quiet themselves quickly. That can work, but requires ongoing vigilance since the stiffness of the xo panel changes (creeps) over time. I realize that you understand the equation in other terms - transfer of energy and mechanical grounding. I don't have my mind around that, although I believe you may be onto something - your results are good. We both agree that the xo functions better out of the box, and we understand that distance from EMF and reduction of mechanical vibration are beneficial - much more so than might be intuitively obvious. When the XO is in the box there are many assaults: the air is in episodic resonance and fluctuating pressure; the cabinet walls, the crossover panel, and the components themselves all vibrate causing microphonics and motor-currents via motion in the EMF. All considered our best production results (in the old days) were to mount the panel tightly to the cabinet and all the components tightly to the panel. The wires hung in free air, generally away from each other. In practice we controlled buzzing and rattling and considered the job accomplished when quiet was attained. I have tried a different approach with more satisfactory results (although less good than the outboard XO.) The new approach is to isolate the various resonances, which spreads them out to various frequencies and reduces their resonance magnitudes because each individual part has far less mass than the combined whole. Each capacitor or resistor is mounted on blue tack or mortite, held in place via its lead wires. Coils are mounted via zip ties against rubber donut standoffs. The driver leads are more carefully routed away from coils and seated in gooey tape to the cabinet walls and routed radially to the driver, avoiding the central flux axis. The crossover is broken into individual panels for each driver, and those individual XO panels are separated from each other as far as possible and as far from the driver magnets as possible, and mounted via fiber bolts isolated from the cabinet wall via rubber stand-offs and from the XO panel via rubber standoffs. These changes would not be very expensive in new construction - they're a bit more of a hassle in retrofit, but still far less cost than swapping out components. This description is of a level 1 upgrade, probably including replacement of any and all electrolytic caps with ERSE-level PPs, and some or all resistors with Mills. |
There are methods to adjust the resonance point of the crossover even when it is mounted internally. This adjustment can be done externally and improvement can be both seen and heard. Much like a string instrument. You cannot do this with so called isolation materials they deny energy transfer and store energy. TomD |
