Good to see you- prof
Happy Listening!
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,725 responses Add your response
nkonor... Good point on the 3.5's midrange. I find that the 3.6's, for lack of a better term, seem to over-emphasize the thick of the midrange while the 3.5's offered a more "spacious" replication? I also notice a more evident, but typically correct feel for the bass - particularly at the conservative volume level I listen at. Nothing I've tried to put a finger on rings as a coloration of the sound, rather a considerably larger speaker's difference compared to a smaller one's. The 3.5's may have measured a little deeper with the bass, but I feel it more with the 3.6's. As I've said in the past, "what's a few hertz here or there amongst friends?" Are you using a sub with the Avalons? |
Right On! William- hopefully, everyone here is contributing from a hands-on, real time, perspective. Nothing wrong in reading the Audio based webzines and print rags. We all need to get out to a dealer/retailer and listen, listen, listen with our own ears /music. Thanks! for sharing the hot tip. Happy Listening! |
jafant... No, I almost bit on a used INT150 from Upscale which I balked on for a reason that escapes me now. I heard the Neo through a pair of Wilson Somethingorothers - $16,000 - prior to my purchase months before at Audio Den, the shop within walking distance from my house. Sorry, but for $16,000 speakers would have to make me coffee every morning as well, maybe even make my bed. After the Wilsons we hooked up the Maggie 1.7 and .7 speakers which, at the time, had me favor the .7. To my ears the .7 were more articulate, finding the larger 1.7's to lose a little definition in the high end by comparison - believe it or not. Perhaps because the larger bass panel seemed to round out the overall sonics? I believe the INT150 was around $4,000. The Neo, which was returned to Simaudio as part of their trade-up program, was $4,500 after a 20% discount off the regular price, along with a full factory warranty and participation in the program as well. This is the top model with phono input and DAC. In retrospect I believe I would have jumped at the INT150 had it been available through Reno Hifi, with whom I've purchased 3 Pass amps in the past. This isn't a knock against Upscale Audio by any means since I haven't conducted business with them, but Mark at Reno has earned my business through his outstanding knowledge and service. I don't believe that Upscale offers any sort of warranty on the INT150 - I think it's still for sale at this time - so that's what ultimately steered me onto the Neo. You already know well of my affinity for Pass Labs with Thiel. The synergy between two products that present timbre, presence, and depth so well is, for lack of an almost over-blown descriptive, utterly amazing. For the record, I am not related to nor personally acquainted with anyone from Pass Labs, Thiel, Reno Hifi, Simaudio, Balanced Audio Technology, Magnepan, or Audio Research. My previously unsolicited opinions on their products were offered as results from real-time, hands-on, Audiogon-induced experiences. Damn this site...! I still reserve a place in my heart for the vintage Marantz, Pioneer, and Sansui receivers, all of which represented the absolute sh*t during my introduction to high fidelity back in the '70's. It's proven to be a long strange trip, indeed. |
nkonor... Did you get the Avalons on the used market or new? I've seen a few for sale here once in a while - they're beautiful constructs indeed. While I'm still content with my Neo 340i integrated, I will second my appreciation for Pass Labs - I had an X150.5 and it brought out the best in my 3.5's. (Damn! I shoulda waited until I got my 3.6's before I let that go.) But that partially funded my 3.6's so I can't really kvetch much. |
Much Thanks! for the kind words- oblgny I would suggest a demo if possible on a pair of CS 2.7 or 3.7 only for the fact that those last driver designs prior to JT's passing are a little different from his older (including my CS 2.4SE) drivers/designs. Personally, I have not heard his design(s) outside of the "CS" series. Still, from you guys that own and cherish those vintage models, I venture to report that the time/phase coherency is in full effect. Very impressive! Having heard and spent time w/ the CS 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7 and 3.7, I can easily report that all of those models are outstanding in their own right. I chose the CS 2.4 SE as I found it to be a little sweeter on all fronts, plus, my listening space (not large enough) to provide the 3.7 its proper due. Another factor would require a monster solid state power amp over-and-above for the 3.7 model to really "sing". Yes, by all means, get out there and listen to those 2.7/3.7 models as they appear in the used market. Between Audiogon, eBay and Craigslist, the odds are favorable that you will find one. I will continue to do my part , like robinbarbour, to report them as they pop up for sale. Happy Listening! |
robinbarbour... I just checked those 3.7's on eBay per your suggestion and would have to admit that the cosmetic imperfections wouldn't truly irk me any if I were in the market. I would bid lower because of them however. There's a pair of 3.5's on here listed as "mint" with the photos showing a dimpled tweeter - hardly worthy of the mint claim and, at $750, a tad higher than what similar condition 3.5's go for. Because of their relatively small size - for Thiel - 3.5's seem to suffer more cabinet imperfections than 3.6 and above, which is understandable. A pair of Klipsch CF-3's that I bought 24 years ago sported a couple of living room paint spatters and a number of cabinet scratches from various furniture rearrangements and whatnot. I am curious as hell as to how those 3.7's sound but, alas, without a chance to hear them in person...sheesh. Then again, I have yet had an opportunity to audition a Thiel prior to purchasing, and have yet to be disappointed. Lucky me! Perhaps the most surprising thing about this thread is the fact that almost all of the participants have purchased Thiel used - and still sing high praises. I consider myself very fortunate to have discovered this thread, equally fortunate to have gotten sober advice from the likes of jafant, unsound, nkonor, and many others. As jafant related in a previous post, I too, remember vividly when I hooked my 2.2's ( ! ) up and was amazed before I made it back to my chair. Then came the 2.3's, two pairs of 3.5's, and now the 3.6's. Unless a pair of 3.7's come up locally and the financial stars align for me, my 3.6's are, until then, my favorite. It just doesn't get better than this. Cheers to Jim! |
Guys - Just saw a pair of 3.7 on eBay. Some dings and scratches, but there are still some to be had in the used market. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-CS3-7-Loudspeakers-Cherry-Finish-Cosmetic-Flaws-Local-Pickup-Only-/252... |
I don’t suppose anyone here has heard the heretical new Thiel speakers? Maybe at one of the audio shows? If so, any impressions? I admit that the technical goals of Jim Thiel’s time/phase coherence are compelling to me. And one of the chief characteristics I hear in my Thiels vs other speakers is that last bit of tidyness and focus, where all the acoustic energy related to an individual instrument or voice seems all lined up in the right spot to create a palpable focus and density to images. Other speakers tend to sound somewhat more "vague," imaging-wise. I want to attribute that to the time/phase coherence of the speakers. But I have to allow that it may not be, as there are debates about the audibility of such things, and maybe even some of my listening positions mean the time/phase is less coherent. But whatever causes it, the Thiels certainly seem to have the characteristics I’m talking about. I also find the concept of timbral accuracy a fascinating and vexing one. The Thiels sound exceedingly "right" tonally for instruments and voices. Though I have also heard some speakers with an almost opposite approach - e.g. Joseph, Hales, Waveform, MBL and others - produce a tremendous sense of timbral realism as well. So which aspect of speaker design is most important in reproducing accurate timbre is still an unanswered question to my mind. |
- "The best part, one does not have to spend big money, to make it happen.
In fact, always buy used or demo and save a bit of coin. Every
audiophile can afford quality cabling -you would be foolish otherwise." - Completely agree! As an example of this: I had the opportunity to own some very highly regarded - and expensive - Shunyata power cables. Universally praised at that time. Did I detect a difference? With one of them, the most expensive, yes! I was just about sold. Then to double check, I had a friend help me blind test them against a standard military grade $15 power cable. Turned out I couldn't actually hear any difference. I often detected just the same "improvement" when the $15 cable was in the system. The mind is funny like that :-) So as you say, I didn't have to spend big money - that cheaper power cord was all the quality I needed - and agree it would have been foolish of me to choose otherwise ;-) |
prof... Excellent commentary on perhaps the most contested aspect of assembling a high fidelity system. At the end of the day the single-most important component in any setup is one's head. I used to go to the local stereo stores and buy spools of speaker wire. Back in them days components came with the plugs already. There wasn't a helluva lot of tweaking latitude then. |
Hi Ihave a question. Is there any user turn the volume really high ? I m not sure if i can express myself. I feel that i need to compressed the high note if i need to turn up the volume ? Will you have the same situation ? And also when jim thiel test the speaker . will he use any high end or aftermarket cables ? Or only the normal black cable These question really confuse me because i did blown few tweeters already. Please share your thought |
Much Thanks! for the banter- prof Regarding Thiel loudspeakers, we cannot skip out on Cabling. There is too much information to be lost or never discovered by choosing inadequate cables/cords. The best part, one does not have to spend big money, to make it happen. In fact, always buy used or demo and save a bit of coin. Every audiophile can afford quality cabling -you would be foolish otherwise. By design, I started this thread for the very reason, of making all of our systems the best -sounding possible. It is and will continue to be informative on all fronts. Happy Listening! |
Hi oblgny, I am sympathetic to the desire to squeeze any more performance out of our systems as possible. I certainly succumb to that desire myself. I have come to my conclusions about cables through having paid close attention to the technical arguments regarding cables and having followed the results of blind tests for decades, as well has having participated in some. I used to review audio gear for a while, and have been heavily connected within the audiophile community, I have friends and acquaintances who are high end audio reviewers, etc, and so I've had the opportunity to use, audition, test, including blind testing, a large number of high end cables - from the cheapest to speaker cables/interconnects costing $45,000! That's not to say that anyone here has to or should believe anything just because I believe it. Rather, it's simply to point out that my stance on cables doesn't come from a position of inexperience with high end cables - as if I have dismissed them out of hand or never tried them. Just the opposite. (And the immediate reaction of many audiophiles to doubt about the relevance of expensive cabling is usually something like "You must not have experience with great cables, don't knock it until you've tried it." I've tried it, in many systems, for decades). I'm not going to claim no (competently designed) cables can make a difference. I'm open to the possibility. But in my own tests...this has not been born out, nor does it seem any consensus has been reached by more rigorous controlled methods of testing cables. Unfortunately beyond that we have anecdote, and audiophiles generally have about the worst protocols you could have for actually getting to the bottom of these type of issues (even as I count myself among that group). But, again, to be clear I'm not trying to say no cables can possibly make a sonic difference. But it's a rather huge leap to the claim that cables amount to the MOST important component in the sonics of an audio system. That is a particularly dubious claim, to say the least. In the realm of anecdote: the first high end system I heard as an adult were Quad ESL 63s, hooked up to a cheap amp and zip cord. It blew my mind. I'd never heard such transparency and realism. Did the cheap equipment hold the Quads back from showing their distinct benefits? Heck no. It was the speakers, not the cables, that were doing that work. Another time I remember an audio pal and I visited the home of Waveform Mach 17 Speaker designer John Otvos, and had a demo. He was notoriously against the idea of high priced amps and cables making a difference, and the system was powered by - as I remember - cheap amps like Kenwood (or something similar). And cheap speaker cable. The sound was utterly mind-blowing! I'd heard every big named system you can mention, hooked up to the highest end amps and cables, and the sound coming from Otvos' speakers were a revelation in dynamics, clarity, imaging, natural timbre, etc. Now...am I open to the possibility that some amazingly designed speaker cable could rend slightly "better" sound in some way in that system. Yes, perhaps. But even granting the possibility, it's still a fact that it HAD to be the design of the speakers that was responsible for the head-of-class performance of that sound, not the cables that were used or not used. The competency of the speaker design utterly swamped the importance of cabling, as it should be. As for Thiels, yes they are revealing, but most high end speakers are revealing. (I also tried Nordost and other cables on my Thiel 06s when I had them, BTW). I've had nothing BUT revealing speakers in my room. My friend (audio reviewer) has bought my cast off speakers before. Did they sound at all better at his place on a panoply of super expensive speaker cables than they did at my place with Belden cable? Nope. Not that either of us could detect. In fact, the speakers tended to sound better at my place, because I have a room with better acoustics, and that swamps possible cable differences. (Though he does have good acoustics - it's just that my room was designed with an acoustician. My Thiel 3.7s with simple belden speaker cable sound better than pretty much every speaker he has reviewed at his place, with all his expensive cables). I can make my current Thiel 3.7s sound anything from bright, incisive, lively tight and focused, to dark, lush, looser and less focused...just by where I place or angle them in the room. An alteration of literally an inch can change these parameters, rendering all the similar types of differences one reads for cables. All of us who have played with speaker positioning know this. So, again, I'm not out to claim all cables sound alike. In rigorous empirical terms, it seems the jury is still mostly out on that proposition. But I have to admit to feeling some discomfort when I read recommendations that suggest cabling is among the most important sonic components in an audio system. That, in my view could mislead newbies into thinking they HAVE to join the crowd in spending lots of money on cabling to get their system sounding excellent. I certainly support jafant and anyone's right to make that claim, and to cite their own experience. I'm simply adding my own as counterbalance. The more voices the merrier! Having got that off my chest...back to Thiels... ....and I've been going through quite an audition process to attempt to replace my Thiels. I even have Harbeth speakers in at the moment. Very interesting...(I plan to post my comparisons once I've made a decision). Cheers, |
prof... Cabling may be the least important component in a system for those who don't own Thiels, but since I can speak of a previous disposition concurring with your's, I can tell relate that cables DO make a palpable, tangible difference in a system. I remain doubtful of cables costing more than my automobile, but experimenting with good ones such as Transparent, Anticables, Goertz, etc., at such minor "investment" above Best Buy speaker wires, earns more reward than the satisfaction one may obtain from eschewing the sonic benefits of spending a little more on cabling. Thiels require good everything as they are utterly unsympathetic to poor sources. Would I spend $10k on speaker cables? Hell no - even if I could. On the other hand, the few extra few hundred bucks I've spent to complement my system has been worth it. In closing, Thiel Reveals! |