Good to see you - thielisteI must admit that not familiar with either of these brands. Keep us posted on which way you go. Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,504 responses Add your response
@jafant I don’t have an SPL meter. I can tell you that I don’t listen at ear-piercing levels. I used to use an AX-7 to drive Vandy 2s and I could get that combo to clip but only at levels too loud for me. My room is ~18x19 with a vaulted ceiling 8-12’ (plus two large openings on the rear wall). I have yet to hear the AX-5 clip with the 2.4s. If you like the Ayre sound and want more power you can move up to the VX-5 separate or a used V-1. The MX-Rs have even more power and should drive pretty much anything but you better come with deep pockets! |
There are well respected amplifiers that don't double. Ayre, for example. Ayre doesn't give a 2 Ohm spec but not sure why you wrote this. Ayre specs *all* of their amps as doubling into 4 Ohms. The AX-5 JA measured did show signs of stress at 2 Ohms but otherwise reacted well as the current demand increased on his test bench. I have the Twenty version of the AX-5 which is said to have slightly improved power over the original version and I will attest that it sounds really effing good driving my CS2.4SEs :) |
Audition not possible, I have watched the 5300 sell in a day or so but the 5200 linger. Thank you for helping the newbe! I know this is a really bad topic but you guys know better than anyone, the seller of amp has a pair https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis91f0c-mcintosh-cs3m-speaker-cables-2-meter-pair-speaker will these work with 2.7 ? |
I have been away and didn't keep up with thread, Wow lots of cool conversations! and the analogy of talking about your kids!! HA so true, loved all the albums everyone shared and really rekindled some music, ! The Doors and the Sound track to Blade runner... oboy what a treat for the Thiels! I also laughed my ass off counting how many Gibson models were in attendance but then cried when I saw what Corvett01 sold his for. Prof had me flashing back to my youth and the days of the Hustle with the Saturday Night Fever. These box's we all share are Thiel Time Machines! For the record I wasn't 100% disco. I remember seeing the Who in Shea Stadium (loudest concert on record) and the Palladium and Studio 54 that same night! Sorry for rambling. Mr Tom Thiel question will this amp work with 2ch/home Theater? CS2.7 as main Msc1 center cs 1.7 rear https://classeaudio.com/ca-5300/ I have left them a few messages asking for 4 ohm 2 etc... Thought Tom or someone here might know some history. I was going to run all 9 speakers with PS audio M700 but now just the 4 atmos power plain 1.2 Thank you all for the album sharing again. Dan |
thielrules, troubleshooting is a hands-on undertaking. I'll speculate a little, but the problem needs actual triage, both speakers and the eq. The deep bass looks like the green channel has the eq and the red channel does not: textbook 12dB/octave rolloff. The red channel from 80 to 300 might be a woofer problem or the bottom end of the midrange phase-lagging causing that periodic (cancellation?) pattern. Of special interest is the combined blue output from 250 to 1K is lower than either speaker. This graph implies phase / polarity issues in the red speaker or the eq. I suggest you take out the eq, change cables, measure each speaker in the identical room location, swap amp channels, etc. to gather meaningful troubleshooting data. Perhaps you can arrange an appointment with Rob to send him your preliminary data beforehand and take your speakers when he's ready to put them on the bench. |
Here is just a link to the graph of left speaker (5ft), right speaker (5 ft) and both speakers (16 ft) Same signal sweep for each measurement.https://drive.google.com/file/d/17Ft6xYyKt7vg--wdn5KplLU0Y5hZ7b4s/view?usp=sharing More detailed info if you download data file for REW. |
Thanks Tom, the data files are used in REW to chart the values of frequency responses. After downloading the files, just open them in REW (room equalizer wizard). Rob, who is just around the corner from me is pretty busy and I hate to miss my speakers for weeks but I'm prepared to do it, if it can be fixed. |
thielrules, I can't read your attached files nor do I have a 3.5 schematic. Although the role of caps is to block low frequencies and the woofer circuit doesn't have caps in its series feed, there are some smaller values in the shunt circuits which could lessen woofer output via passing more bass to ground. But, my recollection (fairly dim) is that all those 3.5 shunts were mylar film caps, which have an indefinite life. If an electrolytic cap has actually failed, it will usually show leaking goo. E caps are labeled "NP" for non-polar. This gig is something that Rob Gillum may help you solve. dsper, cap failure is a gradual thing until they might blow up, which should cause considerable sonic change. Gradual failing can be heard as frequency shifts in the xo regions, especially at high power and possibly noises like gurgling or sloshing water. As I mentioned, Rob has not seen any cap failures, Thiel used very high quality caps. The rule of thumb is 20 to 40 years of heavy use plus or minus 20. I'm not being facetious; if a cap is going to fail, it often fails in the short term. And if it's going to last, it generally lasts a long time. Yours didn't fail early, so they're probably good for a few decades. Rob at Coherent Source Service could replace your E caps or talk you through doing it yourself. Also, we are developing crossover upgrades using 21st century passive parts. Our upgrades-in-development will not use electrolytic caps to address the fact that those interested enough to resurrect and upgrade classic Thiel speakers would be well served to never have to worry about caps again. The polypropylene replacements cost an order of magnitude more than stock NPs. We are exploring cost-effective solutions at two levels; it's a little early to announce brands, but we are making progress. |
Thank You - ronkentPS Audio has become quite a force in the industry and our hobby.Paul and his company have certainly grown and expanded by research and development. I would have never thought that, outside of line/power conditioners and regenerators, he would offer pre-power amps or dac/transport/streamer(s).I wish that I had more Audio company/manufacturer representative(s) here.The invitation is extended to those guys as well. Happy Listening! |
Hi, I am listening to "Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster" on Verve right now. Hegel HD 25 DAC, AudioSpace CD8 as transport, Prima Luna Dialogue Premium, Coda CS, and Thiel CS5's. It sounds very good to me but I am wondering about the age of the Thiels. How does one tell when it is time for new E Caps? Dsper |
Much Thanks! tomthielfor the continued insight and perspective(s) on the facts that made Thiel into the best loudspeaker company since inception. Good to read that you found a repair service for those Classe' power amps. That company has a strong following as well. Keep researching and writing. Happy Listening! |
Okay after all this talk of amps, i need to put in a big plug here for the power regenerators from PS Audio. I started years ago with the PPP, then to the P5, and now am using a P10 (which i will be selling next month in order to buy the new P15). these beasts make a huge difference in the sound quality of my system, and many people just overlook how important they are. I would rather have an amp that retails for 5 grand, and a P10 for 5 grand, than an amp for 10 grand. They are an important component and affect the sound as much as the room itself. Just in case anyone is thinking i am a PS employee, let me assure you I am not. I have a great menswear store in Greensboro NC and (shameless plug here), if anyone really likes nice menswear, they need to check us out. www.thehubltd.com |
Guys (and galls?) I could use your help in "diagnosing" my speaker problems. I have 2 sets of Thiel 3.5's and the newer set shows an acceptable measurement curve using REW and the build-in sweep measurement. My older speakers that I power with a Bryston 3B-STin a large 30x30ft room, show problematic measurements for each speaker, taken about 5 ft from each speaker, especially in the lower ranger 20-100 hz. I have links to the REW datafiles so you can examine them if you have REW, a free program. I have tentatively concluded that one woofer may need replacement but I'm curious about your opinions. Are these speakers reaching their end of life? Speaker are 12 ft apart. Right speaker, from 4- 5 ft https://drive.google.com/file/d/14xdQvRFk24kUBehj1WXhETCNU0vb7nV3/view?usp=sharingBoth speaker, listening position 16-18 ft https://drive.google.com/file/d/14xdQvRFk24kUBehj1WXhETCNU0vb7nV3/view?usp=sharingLeft speaker, from 4- 5 ft https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIeddDfRzRsdXjSXPdG3HSyFsCs39kkd/view?usp=sharing |
Thos, Replacement models are generated to push the art, grow the company and generate new interest. The old products aren't really old or defective, in fact in many ways Thiel designs out-do many contemporary products. The 2.3 and 2.4 are conceptually the same product, the product that Jim wanted to design in the late 1970s when we figured out that phase coherence was our passion. We knew from the beginning that a coincident driver was the end-game, but we were an internally capitalized skunk-works and it took all that elapsed time to develop the 2.3 coax. The 2.4 was the next generation, with a smaller diameter midrange. But the woofer, crossovers and cabinets are very similar, as is the sound quality. Many folks think the 2.3 presented a more cohesive projection than the 3.6, due to the coax driver. FYI, the 2-series always followed the next generation of the 3-series and benefited from upper-model knowledge and technologies. The 2.3 followed the 3.6.1 (internal nomenclature) which included some driver upgrades. I concur with Ron that you might best keep loving your 2.3s. One of these days when you are ready, a higher-order or newer model might be in order. And when the time is right, I hope to provide significant sonic upgrades to several of the classic models, applying newer component technologies. I don't know when or why Thiel abandoned its first tag-line . . . there was some legal bullying . . . and Linn added a word to our motto as an upstage tactic. From the 03 in 1978 until the mid 80s our motto was "For the Love of Music". Carry on. |
thank Tom for the input on the PS amps. I use the stereo 250 and it is a killer amp in so many ways. from all i have read both here and in the audio mags, i think PS and Bryston are probably the top two "affordable" solid state units, while the new D'Agostino amps are supposed to be incredible but high dollar. Not familiar with tube stuff as much, but i know VTL is great gear and might be worth looking into. |
And here's a question - I have the CS2.3s, and of course much of the discussion on this forum focuses on other models, but I assume based on specs alone my 2.3s are fairly similar to the 2.4s, meaning hopefully much of the discussion is still pertinent to me? The corollary here is that I don't need to run out and get 2.4s, and when/if I start getting itchy to replace the speakers, I should think about CS6s or the acclaimed 2.7s. Are these good assumptions? |
Ob, Used gear offers great opportunity, with some cautions. Most gear, including Thiel speakers use electrolytic capacitors. Even very high quality E caps have a projected life of 25 to 40 years. Rob says he has never seen a Thiel outright cap failure, but nonetheless, their performance deteriorates with time, causing migration of crossover points and slopes, or a vast array of parameters in amps. Some old gear becomes non-inspiring due to this performance deterioration. So, you might pick up used, under-performing gear on the cheap and have it re-capped for like-new performance, or upgraded for better than new performance. In your room, you might consider Conrad-Johnson or other tube gear. Pay attention to its damping factor and bass management. Tubes can be very sweet. Best of luck with your system rebuilding. |
OK, i have finally read this entire thread and have learned a ton. Big thanks to jafant for the initial "I just scored...", and the handful of regular contributors, you know who you are and what you've added. And of course tomtheil, wow, all the insight! Being new at this, I can't contribute much other than questions, and of course, as requested, some favorite tracks. Reading through the thread prompted me to pull up many that I had yet to play on my new set-up (James Taylor, Dave Brubeck, Everything But the Girl, Fleetwood Mac, and more), and helped me find a couple new artists (Kim Richey, Bill Frissel) so thanks! Here are some recent tracks I currently have in heavy rotation - "Shark Smile" and "Mythological Beauty" by Big Thief; "I'll Still Destroy You," "Carin at the Liguor Store," and "Dark Side of the Gym" by The National; "Scrimshaw" and "Last Rose" by Anna Meredith; "Bodys" by Car Seat Headrest; older favorites that keep getting played are First Aid Kit and Spoon's album "They Want My Soul." |
Tomthiel... Compared to most folks I’d offer that my listening level is VERY conservative 99% of the time. When pressed on occasion to show off how good my Thiels were I could be convinced to crank up the juice but...then I’d immediately direct their attention to the sonics, not the volume. The very thing that got me hooked on Thiel at the get-go. I have a very bright living room. Laminate floor with a small carpet, a ceiling that starts at 9 foot on the left, sloping up and to the right until it tops at 17 feet. I sit around 10 feet from the speakers. (Sat, to be more specific. My current situation forced to me sell off my stuff to meet medical obligations and associated misfortunes.). Temporary though this may be, my current setup is simply a Peachtree Audio Deepblue2 and an Oppo disc player. This is will shortly develop into an equally simple setup in the guise of a re-gifting from my girlfriend. I had given her a Marantz 2252b receiver a few years ago along with a small pair of Usher S520 bookshelves which we utilized in her master bedroom. A true “high school” hifi setup indeed! When I am able to begin the rebuild it’s going to start with Thiel. I’ll be as patient as Jafant in finding a pair - and THAT’s patient if you’ve followed his search for amps to power his 2.4’s with. Patient! |
Jon, I accept your perspective. The doubling itself is less important than is having the required power at 2 ohms. So, the most important factor is how well the amp performs at 2 ohms, which is the critical impedance of Thiel designs. That said, there are some matters of subtlety. When an amp is depleting its powersupply and therefore recharging capacitors in real musical time, the signal waveforms lose their integrity. Much of that "wow" factor that thrills Thiel owners comes from that very wavefront integrity. Ron, that PS amp is highly likely to do what you need. TM, I don't have such a list, being out of the loop for a long time. The amps that Jim used all did it. Big Krell, Levinson, I don't remember what else. The amp I use is a pair of Classé DR9s at Stereo: 100, 200, 400 and Mono: 400, 800 and 1200 watts per channel. I notice real improvement from one amp to two, and the one amp has 400 wpc into 2 ohms. My room is not huge and I listen at moderate levels. My main point is that many of the criticisms leveled at Thiel speakers are attributable to inadequate power and/or cable interactions. In manufacturing circles it is impolite to call out such perspectives. But, source signal integrity is a huge part of the picture. I'll also note that global negative feedback messes with phase integrity. One reason Ayre products sound so good on Thiel is that they both maintain phase integrity to a high degree. I would enjoy seeing the amp list that you guys might put together. |
TomThiel,Would you be able to supply a short list of amps that actually do double and double again into 2 ohms. I've been pretty happy with a Classe CA-300 pairing with my 3.7s, but now have started to worry!The Classe is rated 300 8 ohm, 600 4 ohms, but no rating into 2 ohms.Thanks in advance for any input. |
I think there can be a little too much emphasis on doubling into 4 ohms. This is related to gain and I think the total power of the amplifier is a better way to think about it. There are well respected amplifiers that don't double. Ayre, for example. I'd consider two amplifiers that put out 300 watts/channel into 2 ohms comparable, even if one is rated 75 watts/channel and the other 100 into 8 ohms. The 75 watt one doubles twice while the 100 watt/channel one only doubles once. The 100 watt amp will, however, put out 75, 150 and 300 watts into 8/4/2 ohms. |
Good to see you - oblgny hope you are well and enjoying Summer my Brother. Yes, over on other Audio forums, there are guys using the Mac/Thiel combo. It can be done with their more robust power amps as Tom cites. How is your next Thiel speaker search working out? I watch several sites for you guys and will post as I see certain models as of interest/demand. I sure would like to see you obtain a CS 2.4 or newer. Happy Listening! |
Ob, the Mac you cite is current-limited by definition. If it doesn't double from 8 to 4, that means there is insufficient power to do so, whatever combination that power comes from storage capacitors (instantaneous) or transformers (sustained). Beyond that doubling, the power into 2 ohms is most germane. Many Thiel speakers dip near 2 ohms over extended ranges. You need at least 3x the 8-ohm power into 2 ohms and preferably a second doubling (4x). Now, it's possible that you listen at low volume in a small, lively playback room . . . and less power is adequate . . . but, you're playing with fire if you ever wanted to crank it up. If I were looking, I would not put that Mac amp on my list due to self-admitted current limitation. |
Perhaps a little off subject here but I just stumbled upon a “new” product from McIntosh, the MA252 Hybrid Integrated amplifier. While it has been stated here that some Mc amps limit current - a definite drawback to those of us who’ve owned or own Thiels - this new thing puts out 100 watts into 8 ohms and 160 into 4; nothing is mentioned in the literature regarding their famous/infamous autoformers. Admittedly the piece is super cool looking as well. I suspect some constraints on current delivery because every other amp I’ve owned pretty much doubled down into 4 ohm loads. I mention this first because while I love the look of McIntosh I am not necessarily a fan. I found their customer service to be extremely lacking when I had a minor issue with an MC275 Mark VI amp, and I truly found the 6700 receiver to be a disappointment. That being said, this little beauty goes for $3500 full retail - a veritable bargain in terms of McIntosh given the power rating and features. Sheesh. It IS purty. Anyone here with McIntosh/Thiel? PS: This is by far and away the best thread in the A’gon forums. The recent addition of Tom has been amazing. Carry on! |
Prof, you're right about the "hollowing effect". Phase cancellation is a central problem making first-order implementation very treacherous. The output of 2 combined drivers produces a lobe which cancels or augments output when the "listener" is not on the proper vertical axis to integrate the two signals correctly. The ideal way to implement phase coherence requires a true point source, as in the coincident upper drivers of more recent Thiel designs. Short of that coincident solution, the closer the driver spacing the better; notice the touching/clipped perimeters of Thiel mid-tweeters. Plus, the crossover frequency must be as low as possible because the beaming of the upper end of the larger (lower) driver interferes with and is discontinuous with the radiation pattern of the lower end of the upper (higher) driver, making for a room power response different from the on-axis driver response. To wit: Thiel upper crossovers are very low, lower than considered feasible by most; Thiel tweeters cross in around 3KHz. Such a bold XO frequency requires a tweeter that behaves all the way down, below 100 Hz. At these low frequencies there are bound to be resonances which would destroy the tweeter if not mitigated with notch filters, which are themselves costly. Broadband drivers are a design feat as well as a management challenge. Most experts, including those at the "New Thiel" deem the task "impossible". You are correct: the coincident drivers do a better job than the older multi-driver solutions. But those multi-drivers are themselves extremely sophisticated and allow very low crossover points and both physical and electronic resonance control. Part of Thiel's low impedance (which we love to hate) is that each resonance correction lowers the system impedance, and the global system is really not serviceable until all resonances are effectively eliminated. As I perform my XO upgrade investigations, I am continually surprised how good all these Thiel drivers are. As an example, the non-resonant bandwidth of the 3.6 midrange spans 7 octaves, with similarly stellar performance from every driver in the stable. Part of my decision to reach back no farther than the CS2 2, is that previous drivers were merely modifications of off-the-shelf units from Dynaudio, Seas, and so forth. Newer drivers incorporate new sophisticated technologies toward success in first-order systems. Back to the lab. |
hi Guys, just added a few more pics. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7226Jeff asked about room size and i was really lucky with this room. When i bought my home back in 1997, i was single and i wanted to make sure that i had a great space for my listening and for the gear. This room has a cathedral ceiling which eliminates a lot of issues with standing waves. the wall to the right of the listening position is so far away that it really is not a factor at all. the only parallel surfaces are the walls behind the speakers and the listening position and they are about 15' apart. So the room is a nice big size and great for orchestral sound as those big Thiel's create a giant wall of sound. |