Thiel Owners
@unsound, I am not guided by specs since I am not educated enough to understand all of the parameters, but perhaps others can. Like perhaps most of us, my “tools” are my ears and the Kinki Studio (marketing) or not do sound amazing, very transparent and powerful. But more importantly in this discussion is the Thiels being such a wonderful reveling speaker that demands only the best to shown his magic. |
@johnnotkathi, Thank you for saving me from having to reply. For those who might eschew the objective, and might prefer the subjective; i suggest comparing the output with one’s ear in direct proximity of a loudspeakers drivers with source turned off: with most of the better new Class D amps compared to traditional Class A or AB amps. I think most will typically find these Class D amps to be quieter. I’m not suggesting the SINAD is the be all/ end all, but it is a measure of noise (and distortion) after all.
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@tomthiel the Kinki Studio power amplifier is indeed different animal, very powerful and transparent with a superior damping factor. A technical description (taken from the excellent SoundNews review (*) can shed some light about it: “The EX-M7 is a direct DC coupled power amplifier, meaning that it doesn’t have a single capacitor in the signal path, all the caps you see are used only for power filtering or for storing power for high dynamic swings. You should know that M7 is working in Class-AB, meaning that is consumes a lot of power, offers a lot of power in return and dissipates a lot of heat as well. With a direct DC coupled design, offering a continuous power of 250W into 8 Ohms, 420W into 4 Ohms and almost double that number for some instantaneous dynamic swings, should result an ultra-fast response time, some world-class dynamics and an amazing transient response without affecting refinement or the detail and the transparency of the sound. M7 is drawing power from two oversized and encapsulated 400VA toroidal transformers that can provide up to 72 Volts DC and 18 A peak current! I’m sorry, but all my past power amplifiers and integrated ones are sitting numb and silently in a corner. In terms of specs, the big guy simply outperformed them all. The incredible spec sheet doesn’t stop here: 4 Exicon mosfets are driving the output stage – these are among the best you could possibly have, there are also 4 output transistors per channel (8 in total) that should provide an instant power delivery to your loudspeakers, some high-performance Mundorf caps for power filtering, 8 incredibly large blue caps per channel for storing DC power, another 2 smaller toroidal transformers, I see some juicy and oversized ceramic resistors, and the list goes on and on”
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Buckeye, VTV and a bunch of other businesses merely integrate stock Hypex modules (or ICEPower, Pascal, etc.) into enclosures, add connectors, etc. Typically those modules are powered by their own onboard switching-mode power supplies, which are notoriously noisy. They’re not terrible amps and they may work very well in applications like home theater, but you can’t expect to substitute them for proper class A or A/B amplification and hear no differences.
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@johnnotkathi, Take this with a grain of salt. Jim Thiel thought Class D amps were only suitable for sub-woofer duty. But a lot of progress has been made with Class D since Jim's passing. I haven't experienced these for myself. Before considering those older amps that might need to refreshed with new caps, etc., which if you don't have the where with all to do yourself could end up costing as much as the current purchase prices.. FWIW, I would consider the offerings from: Though there is a 10% restocking fee for non-faulty returns, I think these might actually be better performing with less risk for less money. |
@tomthiel you are probably right… although the Copland, despite not doubling the power at half the impedance, it is a amplifier designed for tough loads. …the CSA70 is a distinct, standalone amp in the range, capable of delivering 2x90W/8ohm and 2x140W/4ohm with sufficient headroom to sustain peaks of 110W, 206W, 352W and a full 475W (21.8A) into 8, 4, 2 and 1ohm loads, respectively [see Graph 1, below]. Add to this fine load tolerance a usefully low 0.01-0.07ohm output impedance and response that's flat to –0.3dB from 1Hz-20kHz (and –1.9dB/100kHz). Also the LRS+ are quite demanding, very evident after some listening test with very capable amps, but the Copland finally showed a very firm grip and sure footed performance. But in the end it was the Kinki Studio combo that revealed everything (!) about the CS.5 capabilities. |
Based on your feedback, am looking around in the area for a possible addition to my gear, that of a power amp that suits the 1.6's. So far I have found: Hafler Trans Nova 9505 and a Yamaha M80. Both advertised at $1k and reported to be in great shape functionally and cosmetically. Still searching...
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audiofilo123 - the 'funny' part about your Copland amp comment is that Thiel speakers require current-source power rather than the ubiquitous voltage sources. An amp that will drive a Thiel, including your little CS.5s, should double its 8 ohm power rating into 4 ohms and at least 1.5x its 4 ohm rating into 2 ohms. The Copland might do well with higher impedance speakers, but not have the current delivery capability that your Thiels require. Frustrating? Maddening? Yes. Solvable? Yes. |
@jafant thanks! To be clear, I have the small 0.5 and not the big 5 model, nevertheless they are unbelievable. After so many amplifiers it was the Kinki Studio combo that could show what these little Thiel can do! …also, they are 25+ years speakers that look and sound like new! |
I have been enjoying my Thiel CS.5 from time to time, as I roll several components along the year, but they have been a bit forgotten by the arrival of the Magnepan LRS+, little more than a year ago. The CS.5 sounded very good powered by the Vincent SV-237MK, Rogue Sphinx v1 (both already sold) and specially engaging with the Naim 122x / Fc2x / 150x (a surprise!). Some months ago, the Kinki Studio EX-P7 and EX-M7 pre-power combo came to elevate the system’s performance to a new level, in every aspect. This was with the Totem Model and the LRS+. Then, a week a go, it was time to give place to CS.5 and my jaw immediately dropped! I have never listened to this level of quality from the little Thiels! My lord! The imaging, soundstage, depth and percussion realism is like a miracle: the speakers totally vanished (like never before) presenting a huge sound, well balanced, palpable and hugely engaging. No trace of sibilance of fatiguing… Of corse, like with the Totem or Magnepan, a REL Stampede 5 helps in the low frequencies department, but in a perfectly non-perceptive way. Kudos to Thiel (what a quality product! They perform and look like new!)…and also to Kinki Studio :) |
Thank you Tom I appreciate it. I drove to audition the 02's. They sounded good but the cabinets showed more damage to the wood veneer than I was comfortable with so I did not purchase them. So I drove another hour and auditioned a really nice set of CS2.2 which I'm just getting setup in my listening room. |
foamcutter - your best source of further information is Gary Dayton at Coherent Source Service. The model 02 woofer had a rubber surround on a paper cone. It was made by GEFCO of Illinois. Woofer: Gefco 4829 6.5” 6 ohm 1” aluminum former Tweeter: Peerless KO 10DT 8 ohm Second Thiel speaker released in autumn 1976 at $220 / pair |
Hi all, I have an opportunity to purchase a pair of Thiel Model 02's. Do these have foam or rubber surrounds... I've found online info that suggests it could be either ? How do I be sure the drivers are original without removing them from the cabinets ? Speaker serial numbers are in the mid 300's. Thank you. |
As Tom said; ..."Consult Stereophile's review for details and considerations."... Thiel CS1.6 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com The high sensitivity might be misleading considering the below 4 Ohm impedance, and the somewhat recactive load. The NAD C375 BEEis is spec'd as >150 Watts 8 and 4 Ohms. As is is not spec'd to increase steady power with impedance drop suggests current limiting. It does suggest good dynamic power down to 2 Ohms, But as seen in the link above the CS 1.6's are below 4 Ohms a good deal of the time. I think the steady state power output into impedance is more relevant. User manual NAD C 375BEE (English - 18 pages) As 3 Ohm ratings are not typical (only the stereo version of the Benchmark jumps to mind), I think it prudent to consider the more typical 2 Ohm ratings when they can be found. A minimum of 200 Watts into 2 Ohms should be considered, and personally would use at least twice that. As @duramax747 wisely suggests YMMV.
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@duramax747 Thanks for the info! Room size is about 20x14 with the system going somewhat centered on the long wall, speakers likely about 8’ apart. (still putting everything together). @tomthiel Thanks for the info and insights! I will do more research and take it from there. Also, I know where to get the locking bananas and will absolutely take your advice on that. 😎
@jafant right now I have several systems through the house, but the one I am building around the Thiels has the NAD integrated amp so far, the speakers and a newly acquired/used Benchmark DAC2. If I decide to include a turntable right now, my best option is a Concept 2QD. Still looking for a streamer…
thanks for the warm welcome! |
John - Jim worked hard in the CS1.6 to bring the sensitivity up. His spec was 90dB@2.83V. Stereophile’s review measured 94dB. So, amps far less powerful than for normal Thiels will work on the 1.6. The impedance runs just under 4 ohms across the board; that’s not as punishing as some other Thiels like the 3.6. Note howwever that the reflex slot is far more reactive than any other Thiel. Consult Stereophile’s review for details and considerations. The binding posts with their big brass knobs are sonically destructive. Upgrade your sonic experience by backing the knobs all the way off and putting some locking bananas on your cables. When the time comes, there will be crossover upgrades for substantial improvement at reasonable cost. The 1.6 drivers and enclosure are better than its crossover component quality. |
John, Welcome. Though I will not offer a specific amp amp, as I have not done the amp/1.6 evaluation in my test. I will say what is consistent across the producr line is big power and Class A, if it permits. I have a preference for the various models I have and they are all different for each model. Tom told me this about Jim. He stated the amp to drive his speakers would cost more than his speakers. Not knowing your room size will limit suggestions you may receive. |
New to the thread so hopefully I’m not interrupting the flow, but recently acquired a pair of pristine 1.6’s and I am interested in any recommendations around amplification. Currently I am using a NAD C375BEE which seems to do quite well with them. Thanks everyone and must say this incredibly long thread is a great read! John |
Thank you for the kind words everyone. Thanks for the reassurance from Steve but I was thinking they sounded good already. My pair of 0.5's were finished to monoblocks back in 2012 to a Platinum+ edition and I have been very pleased with them. I'm only considering sending the back in to a little improvements like the gravity base if he still offers it. I still need to ask. If this sounds interesting to you let me know we can work out the details.
Tomtiel Keep the stories coming, I always like reading your insights about the back ground development of these speakers as well as your future upgrades for these. |
ig316b,Amberwood is a beautiful wood. Congrats on the CS6 as they are great speakers. They are easier to set up than their older siblings and share some of the same characteristics. Not as difficult to drive as CS5i or CS 7.2. Great find. I have a pair in Zebrawood. Regarding the McCormack DNA 0.5 I’ve talked to Steve and he informed me this is the amp to buy used to send in for upgrades. He is a complete gentleman that knows his stuff and has very fair pricing. I would take the plunge if budget permits. Again with the upgrades that will be offered I’m confident the CS 6 will compete with speakers today in the 25-30K realm. I heard three versions of Tom’s SCS4 workhorse. Each revision had further upgrades. When we listened to the final revision, at the time, I was scrathing my head in disbelief at this transformation. It was like a veil removed and I was permitted to enter the holy of holies. When Tom told me this can be done to all Thiel speakers it was difficult to grasp. Going from stock SCS4 to what I heard can also be done on my beloved CS 5i, CS 7.2, CS 6, CS 2.7, CS 2.4SE I was moving my entire stack of chips to the pot and say "I’m all in". |
devinplombier Indeed the CS5i are difficult to obtain. To find them in your region of the US and with shipping cartons becomes even more difficult. They have plywood crates so cannot understand why owners would not have the crates other than the space they take up and they threw them away. When buying always ask this question "What amps did you use with the CS 5i"? If they were cared for the amps would be massive with high current. I will share a purchase I made on a rare pair of CS5i. I was not looking for a pair of CS 5i as I had a pair, but came across this pair in dark walnut. I emailed the seller and told him I wish these speakers went to a good home and ended it there. The seller started to communicate with me and his fear was someone would hook up an inferior amp to these beauties and blow the drivers and ruin these speakers he had cherished. We eventually struck a deal on price and I was going to own another pair. This gentlemen had the odacity to not honor our price but instead lowered his price substantially and white van the speakers to my place for free. He stayed in a hotel from the day’s driving and arrived early the next morning. When he arrived he had the odacity again to offer to "set them up properly for me" and get this for free. Well scratch my back with a hacksaw as I thought I was in the midst of a Twilight Zone episode. We started talking and come to find out his grandfather was one of the original Thiel dealers in the country. Thiel dealers would come into your home and set up the speakers, "properly". Not only did I get a pristine pair of CS 5i with a campfire type story, I also received the plywood shipping crates and all the original accessories. The footers came in a case that were foam fitted with the manual. When you come across the right seller for CS 5i he will take point in the conversation and ask the questions interviewing you to see if you are a candidate for these speakers. They are that special. When Tom came by on his Thiel journey I shared with him the story of the newly acquired CS 5i. He saw the crates which broiught him to a time past and I could see he was having a moment as he was beaming with pride. These were the shipping containers so I did not dare show him the speakers. He shared the story that the gentleman that brought the speakers was the grandson of one of their original dealers. He said he knew him when he was a boy at his grandfathers shop. We did not listen to this pair of CS5i but instead a pair of ultra rare Brazilian Rosewood. When Tom saw them he was telling me how he acquired this rosewood through the jungle of Brazil/Boliva. He went on to say this was real Brazilian Rosewood acquired legally as it is almost impossible to lay your hands on any today. This is another story but they were also white van delivered to our place for free which was over 850 miles of traveling. My point. If you find a pair of CS 5i there should be a story behind them and the seller will be very accomadating to make sure they go too a good home. This to me is the Thiel Legacy.
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duramax747 Thank you, this is very informative. I’ve been searching for speakers for over a year at this point. I narrowed it down to CS 5i and Infinity IRS Beta, and maybe Revel Salon 2. I say "maybe" because on principle I’d rather stay away from ported enclosures, but they got much praise that I would still like to seriously audition them. I set up searches for all three, but the CS 5i and the Beta are rare as hen’s teeth here in the Pacific Northwest; and those outside the region are usually for local pickup only. I would love to hear the CS 5i but unfortunately I won’t be able to take you up on your kind offer due to distance 🙂 |
devinplombierYou are correct the CS5i is sealed and CS 7.2 passive radiator. When I mentined sealed speaker I was referrring to the CS5i. As Tom mentioned all the upgrades will be implemented across Thiel product line. I've listened to the CS 5i and CS 7.2 the past 8 months or so. In new room they are both dialed in and its a roller coaster ride of emotion. The CS 5i takes massive power for her to clear her throat and really sing. You havn't heard a botton end until you hear the CS 5i. When it hits it hits hard, fast,and with authority. Going to the CS 7.2 it takes time to acclimate as it cannot match the slam of the CS5i. The CS 7.2 has better tonal balanced though. With the deep dive Tom has taken with extensive upgrades, these two models will rival speakers north of 50k very easily. Regarding using silver cables I have found that soft annealed silver is what you need. It has a very distinct characteristic. Fast, clarity, heightened soundstage and a natural decay so notes dont linger longer than what is natural. Any members here in N. Carolina are welcome to come on by for a listen and compare copper vs silver. When you see a man tapping his foot with a smile on his face you know you arrived at the right place.
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Unsound - I agree with you. The equalizer does everything right sonically. The bass extension rolls off at the bottom at 12dB/ octave like real unamplified output. The upper frequency electronic ’tizz’ is solved with the new unit. Our problem, especially in the early days, was under-pricing what we were delivering, and therefore living under very strict budget limitations. Note Dunlavy’s price multiple vs a similarly-reviewed Thiel. I did some cabinet consultation for Dunlavy. Behind their curtain, Thiel’s component quality and overall performance / cost and was far higher. The Audio Upgrades re-design of Jim’s EQ is significantly better, but would have come in at about double the cost of Jim’s design. As you know, our plans include reintroduction of retro-fittable midrange and tweeter to remove the obsolete product concern, and then offer this new EQ as an upgrade for your upgraded model 3 equalized models. There were 10,000 pair of model 3s with that equalizer (combined 03a, CS3 and CS3.5). Quite a few of those are still in use. As background, I advocated for a higher performance line of our speakers which would have allowed greater budgets. Think Lexus / Toyota. That idea didn’t fly primarily because they felt it would cheapen the perception of our stock products. Marketing would have been more dimensional, but I think we would have shone brightly in that arena. I would have preferred that business model vs diving into Home Theater for survival as value-priced 2 channel faded against emergent HT. |
@tomthiel, of course you would know better than me. But, aside from being able to make the under hung motors more available across the various models , which is somewhat negated by the lowered price point models using different woofers anyway, I think the sealed boxes were the better choice. Other manufacturers such as Dunlavy with similar performance goals were able to do it. Though to be fair the Dunlavy’s used more drivers in bigger boxes or used acoustic floor volume reinforcement. All of which created a different set of concerns. I’m not sure all would agree, but I for one think those, and the previous use of eq were worth it.
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In the early years, Thiel considered reflex bass as a necessary cost-compromise only for entry level products ie home theater and models 1 and 2. When it came time to replace the CS3.5 with the 3.6, I resisted going to reflex bass in the 3, which had always embodied our highest aspirations. The equalizer needed improvements which were judged too expensive for the target price. Fair enough. I lobbied (unsuccessfully) for a modified CS5 style bass with overall system impedance high enough such that the falling bass impedance could stay above 4 ohms. The prevailing argument was that ports (a performance step down from our passive radiators) were ubiquitous, even in speakers selling in $6 figures. Nonetheless, our foundational commitment to time-alignment was compromised. Reflex puts the deepest fundamentals a full cycle behind the action. As duramax has said " the bass player is out in the parking lot". Thiel’s reflex bass is implemented as well as I’ve seen at any price, but it does unavoidably delay the deep bass. So you know, we have prototyped an equalizer using Jim’s excellent topology but adding regulation and more beef to the power supply, higher grade caps and metal film resistors - while still remaining affordable. Another problem with straight bass (non-reflex) is that very large driver excursions are required, which works against our underhung, low distortion motors. My assessment is that if push comes to shove, an overhung woofer motor is far better aligned with Thiel values than is the reflex timing error. All of the upgrade technologies we are developing in the SCS4 workhorse will be applicable to all Real Thiel speakers. The 7.2s weak link is a 400uF bank of electrolytic caps in a parallel notch filter. Although considered less audible than series-feed circuitry, shunt filters are audible. I have developed two fixes. 4x100uF film caps, which is expensive and large enough to only apply to an outboard crossover. But another fix is to replace the 4 x 100uF electrolytics with 8x50uF higher grade Els in a bundled layout concentric around a new Golden Cascade 1uF bypass with its coaxial sections decreasing to 0.015uF. That’s the minimus value we landed on and used in the CS3, 3.5, 2, 1 and 1.2. The cost and footprint of this fix is accessible for an inboard crossover. Lovely improvement. Regarding duramax’s silver cabling. I have also found silver to be magnificent and free of any excess brightness - depending on design - many elements are in play in cables. I have some custom silver plated copper wire that plugs right into my BiFlow topology. The extra cost of silver is significant, but my geometry has cost-effective manufacturability. So a silver option is on the radar. Our behind-the-scenes rate of progress has been called ’glacial’. It’s really slow, but also quite large. |
prof,
I agree on your assessment of the CS 7.2. My viewpoint is the 3.7 has better drivers and the 7.2 impliments their drivers better. The upgrade path for the CS 7.2 is pretty exciting. Utilizing Tom's Bi-Flow wire technology with proprietary Golden caps will be ground breaking for sure. Eliminating the 100uf electrolytic caps with film will no doubt put more meat on the bone in lower Midrange. There are other upgrades as well, which is really exciting since it's current performance level is as you say "memorable". I run large Class A amps, which really does the big Thiel justice mixed with a 300B pre. That combo is intoxicating. Currently I use cabling contradictory of moost Thiel users. I use some silver cabling. I have no brightness. I like music fast like live music and silver in my application achieves this. Bottom end is very tight with plenty of weight. I'll be getting a pair of 3.7 so I can spend time with them. I try to rotate speakers around as I had the CS 5i in previously. Listening to a sealed speaker you hear the bass in real time and it is difficult to go back.
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By the way, I just stumbled on this old video on YouTube: Thiel’s Kathy Gornik talking about the virtues of free trade. It’s a section from a larger interview with her. It sure seems to be relevant again in the current world situation: https://youtu.be/MWEDjdzhbFk?si=1tbNvFp39ZvZGOnW I had some interactions with Kathy back in the day and she was always so gracious.
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@ig316b
Congratulations !
I had the cs6 in my home for quite a while when they came out and they were incredible. The best loudspeaker I’ve ever had in my room up to that point and still one of the best I’ve had.
I’m a fanboy too, had the 3.7s, model 2, and I still on the 2.7s.
I can understand the appeal of the 7.2s. They provided one of the most memorable listening experiences I’ve had when I heard them at a shop. The sensation of solid live instruments in front of me was amazing. I would say that the final coaxial driver design Jim came up with bettered what you will find in the 7.2. But of course you’re not going to get the same frequency range and authority as you would get with the 7.2s I think they were one of the great speakers ever made. If I had the room, maybe I would own them too. |
ig316b Welcome! Good to see you here this weekend. Never apologize for writing an insightful post! Thank You for citing your System(s). McCormack is a sonic match for Thiel loudspeakers are you are finding out. Equally good to read that Stealth Audio cabling is a sonic match as well. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes.
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Hello everyone I’m a long time stalker, first time squawker here, well to this thread anyway and not really a squawker either it just sounded good. I am a recovering Vanderholic and have come here seeking your help and knowledge. I have been a Thiel convert for the past couple years now. I first heard Thiel back in 1998 while visiting Santa Fe, NM, walked by a pair of 2.3’s that made me stop and listen. I couldn’t afford them at the time but they were always there in my memory when I was looking to upgrade my system. The only reason I didn’t make the jump to Thiel when I moved into the big speaker realm was the fear of not being able to repair the speaker in the future, this was the time frame when Theil was going through all their troubles thus the reason for venturing down Vandersteen path. I started my recovery when I started reading this thread and decided to purchase a pair of PCS speakers for my office. They had always intrigued me so I took the plunge figuring they would work well as large monitor speakers at minimum. Fast forward and I came across a deal on a pair of Amberwood CS-6’s with an extra pair of crossover’s and pair of 4 inch drivers. The owner was considering upgrading them but never got around to it and could not take them with him overseas. I have had them for a little over a year now and will not part with them, they’ve even made me consider looking for a pair of CS 7’s or 7.2"s. I now consider myself a full fledged card toting Thiel zealot, maybe not that extreme but I can get there from here.
I know Jafant will ask so here goes: my office system consists of Thiel PCS’s and SS-1 subwoofer via a PX-05 crossover. Metrum Accoustic’s Ambre, Adagio feed the digital and a VPI HW-19 Mk IV turntable, McCormack Micro Phono and Line Drive, both with SMc Audio Platinum upgrades feed the analog, a Metrum Forte amplifier drive the PCS’s. My wife who is not into the audiophile thing says my office system sounds really nice, she likes to come in and listen sometimes while relaxing.
My main system consists of the Thiel CS-6’s, MCS-1, Powerpoint 1 and Pair SS-2 subwoofers driven by McCormack 0.5 monoblocks with Platinum upgrades (2012 edition). The source’s are Metrum Ambr and Adagio for digital, a highly modified VPI HW-19 MK IV for analog connected to a SMc Audio Reference Phono Drive, these go through either the McCormack TLC passive buffered (2016 edition) preamp or ALD with REV A upgrades preamp. The SMc Reference Phono and TLC Passive Buffered preamp share the same VRE-1 Power Station. The surrounds are driven by a pair of McCormack DNA-HT1’s and powered by an Oppo UDP-205 and Parasound P-7. I have plans to move up to Dolby Atmos just waiting for the right side surrounds to come available. And yes I believe that once you have reached this leave of clarity in you system that cables matter, my main system consists of Stealth Audio Cabling, source components get Metacarbon interconnects with PGS 50/50 doing the delivery to the monoblocks. I use Dream P/C’s to deliver the power to all components and 4 to 5 foot runs of Hybrid MLT’s to drive the CS-6’s. Yes I’m a very big fan of the McCormack upgrades, as a matter of fact considering getting my 0.5 monoblocks upgraded one last time while I redo my main system room. I know someone’s going to mention about me keeping up with my system pictures but I am terrible at keeping that updated, shoot it took me forever just to write this.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you guys know I am very interested in the Thiel Renaissance upgrades and would be willing to volunteer my spare parts for testing if needed, I’m just outside the DC area. Looking forward to what the future with these Renaissance upgrades could bring with excitement. Also my apologies for being so long winded, hope everyone has a good weekend.
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