@pwhinson Thiel's subwoofers with an integrator is absolutely magical. Makes the 2.4's sound like massive speakers while cleaning everything a notch or two
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,543 responses Add your response
Yes!!! Two SVS SB2000 subs placed just inside the 2.4s, lined in from PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC, built-in crossovers on subs set to ~60 Hz, phase set at 12 o'clock, volume at 12 0'clock, and running the 2.4s at full bandwidth via balanced ICs to a pair of Stellar M700s with Audioquest CV8 speaker cables. Amazing! |
Pops - I have not yet made serious direct comparisons, but the two driver scenarios both have trade-offs. The 3.6 vertical stack makes the listener vertical ear position more critical, the constructive and destructive lobing affects the frequency response. But, each driver gets a controlled wave launch from the stationary baffle. The CS6 along with the 2.3 and up and 3.7, etc. with the coincident driver greatly solves the first problem. The tweeter is where it is designed to be regardless of the listener position. But, the tweeter sees the midrange cone as its wave launch. Even though its cone shape is engineered as a tweeter wave-guide, that cone is nonetheless moving. I don't really know whether that launch is more or less problematic or just different. I know that the coincident PowerPoints are uncannily integrated. And I also know that the CS2.2 tweeter (3.6 and 5) sounds different and lovely. Who knows? I hope that by this time next year we will all know more. |
Thiel lovers and leaders, I just swapped out my C6 for my beloved 3.6 for fun. I do this on occasion. I am retired so I can play with the system when I have the urge. What a different animal! Just so transparent and open, not that the 6 is a slouch and once again confirms my preference to the driver scheme in the 3.6. Keep up the good work Tom and Team Thiel! Reading and following with great interest as I will no doubt need to update my XO’s at some point. |
Ken - The CS5i is for Improved. The 3 bass drivers were re-engineered and the two low woofers were loaded with a central plug rather than damping mats. Crossover changes also smoothed things out in the lower midrange and reduced the upper frequency impedance rise for an easier electrical load. At the time there was an upgrade kit. Rob reports that the CS5i has virtually zero problems in the field. With proper amplification to drive the 2-ohm bass load, and a room big enough for proper integration, the CS5i can be wonderful. The CS5 tweeter was our first completely in-house design with fancy motor tricks and an engineered aluminum dome - on the shoulders of new technologies first developed and tried in the CS1.2 tweeter. (The CS1 series became a trial horse for new technologies, much as the CS2 series became a trickle-down beneficiary of upper-end solutions. The late 80s is when our co-development relationship with Vifa flowered which served both of our companies very well for over a decade. We conscripted the CS5 tweeter for the CS2.2 and 3.6 for a very productive R&D cycle. |
JA - I want to express my appreciation for the group you have assembled here and its productive and cooperative form of engagement. Life is an interesting journey indeed and some gathering of energy such as here can change its course. As most people know at some level, family business is a peculiar beast; rarely is it simple. This group has provided a focus for me to re-approach unfinished business. I thank you all for being here. Beetle - what a pleasure it has been to have you behind the curtain, questioning, researching, sharing . . . as we have made progress in this delicate matter of re-imagining this product statement of another person and circumstance - especially one's deceased brother. I am pleased with our progress and our results and now approach my own modifications and further investigation with the concrete knowledge and feedback that you have provided. Onward. Andy - I wish to honor the classic Thiel naming system where a new numbered generation is accompanied by new drivers, generally all of them and usually a new cabinet - a new product on the shoulders of its forebears. Beetle's product remains firmly a CS2.4 with a twist allowed by changing circumstances of time. I don't know what to call these modifications and I welcome all ideas. The working IDs have been Level 1, 2, 3, etc. Beetle's upgrade is at level 3. Functional but oh so prosaic. All - the presence of an audience here has encouraged me to devote focused time and resources to this project which simply would not have otherwise happened. This group has produced a pair of CS3.6s and an SS1 and SW1 and another SW1 on the way. I'm picking up a pair of CS1.6s this Sunday and have bought a pair of beater MCS1s for research and parts - these pieces in addition to the 4 PowerPoints which were motivated by the project. And my design studio now has a fairly well tricked out electronics and measuring nook for the ongoing work speaker. And it all feels right. Thank you all. |
Though I don't own Thiels I have been enjoying this thread for some time. (I've been especially impressed by Tom Thiel's contributions: as a recovering philosophy major I've followed his ideas on the epistemology of sound with keen interest). Here's a good deal not too far from me. Even if I had the spare funds at the moment -- and the spare funds for the needed amplifier upgrade -- I don't have enough room for these big beauties. Not sure of the difference between the CS5 and CS5i, but I see the seller is also selling a dual mono 400w Levinson amp, and has been trying to get rid of both for a while. I'm betting someone who offered $9k or so could easily walk way with the start of a world-class 2-channel system. https://www.ebay.com/itm/THIEL-CS-5i-SPEAKERS/183292862680?hash=item2aad1b20d8:g:a3sAAOSwtalbMluL:rk... |
New XO boards now in final configuration on my former SEs. I guess I need a moniker for these. Maybe CS2.4TB for Tom’s Bliss ;^) And though the boards are finished I still want to replace my FST input and output wire. Also, I intend to replace the binding posts and make the speakers biwirable. So, not quite to my end point. I have all the parts to complete the project but the Cardas wire needs to be tinned and my soldering gun is not the right tool. Gonna have to get a solder pot . . . The new parts have various hours on them as I changed configurations over the past several weeks. I might have heard changes even up to 200 hours, which is where others have said Clarity settles in (Dave Garretson among them). So, burn in might not be finished? That said, I’m super happy with the SQ I’m hearing. Musical immersion. I get the house to myself this evening :) |
Today marks the 3rd Anniversary of this thread. In 2016, I started with post #1 from a fan's standpoint for Thiel Audio. I came to admire the design, form and function of these wonderful loudspeakers. The hope was to gather interest from like-minded Audiophiles. Well, it tuned out that there are more than a few of Us. Some have left to pursue other speaker brands while most of you guys are still here. This is a testament to Mr. Jim Thiel's hard work and passion for seeking nothing but the best in presentation, sound reproduction. Several of you guys are experts on this brand exclusively. Over time, I adapted this thread to catch all Music lovers from entry level, hobbyist, moderate, novice and expert. Recently, we have managed to attract electronic DIY and speaker building contributors. Moreover, there are occupational trades and professionals here. All of these attributes created an esteemed Panel. Talk of Thiel Audio crosses over into other audio forums as well. Those guys contact me away from Audiogon. I ask each and every one to join us here to continually improve this experience.I could not have predicted that two distinguished Gentlemen would notice this thread. Mr. Tom Thiel and Mr. Rob Gillum. Even though Rob is not involved directly, he has perused this thread. Tom has become a very active, all hands-on deck, historical Asset. Thank You All - for your contributions, insight, impressions and listening experiences. The Audio Journey and Process starts here. Happy Listening! |
Tomthiel, A transcription about the Jantzen wax coil’s from a Dutch guy I really trust, Tony Gee To get straight to the door: I absolutely love it! 8) With the 1.5mH Wax Coil I did a 1 to 1 comparison with a normal air coil with 2mm wire (Rdc = 0.22ohm) and a CFC-12 copper foil coil (Rdc = 0.21ohm), both from Mundorf. Furthermore, I have used both the 1.5mH Wax Coil and the 0.47mH Wax Coil in a number of different filter configurations. What is immediately noticeable compared to an ordinary air coil is the large increase in spatiality and placement of the individual instruments in an orchestra. This phenomenon is something that ordinary copper foil coils also have, so not surprising that the Wax Coils in that respect are better than standard air coils. But what they offer even more than a normal copper-foil coil (and I’ve fallen for that), is the whole natural and expressive harmonic structure. Strings sound delicious to wood, intestine, horsehair and resin. Sopranos have a natural heat in their voice, etc. These positive qualities are best reflected in classical music, singing and acoustic instruments, with "produced" popular music in particular the extra spatiality. |
I'm loving the enthusiasm I'm hearing from you both. Beetle - indeed there are great expensive drivers and some including Vandy who took Jim's lead in using copper motor shunts. Jim invented the solution on first principles and only when applying for patents did he learn that the solutions were lying fallow in the public domain for a long time. Faraday Rings. Holco - your coil wire is ERSE or Jantzen 4-9s round and bonded, so your foil coils will be different in geometry and bonding only. Your comparison of the round vs foil is of great interest to me. |
The driver motor distortions are less than 1/10th of anything else I have seen. And the dual cone driver has extremely low breakup This is the main reason I came back to Thiel. Off the top of my head, the only drivers that I consider clearly better than Thiel are the Vandy carbons and TAD beryllium coax, maybe some of the diamond tweeters. But those designs are well out of my budget. Jim T should be lauded for his efforts in making this level of performance available to working people. And, now, with better passive parts the performance level of those drivers gets really close to the $$$ designs. |
Holco - nice work and thank you. Please remind me of your serial numbers for my reconstruction records. FYI: part of the reason for the "eager appreciation" is that the other parameters are all designed for maximum performance. The driver motor distortions are less than 1/10th of anything else I have seen. And the dual cone driver has extremely low breakup and the cabinet has very low resonsnces, and so forth. In addition, I believe that phase coherence allows the aural brain to accept the signal as real rather than reproduced and as such the essence of the music is accessible to the entire sensing / feeling person. You have removed a veil and you can experience the improvements holistically. As a historical note, Thiel budgeted $1/3 for cabinet, $1/3 drivers, and $1/3 crossover. That formula gives more budget to the crossover than most companies commit, but our requirements are high. A large portion of that high cost is in high-purity copper and the styrene x tin foil 1uF bypass caps. And the other parts were also carefully chosen within their budget constraints. A company must second-guess its way to its target market, and this particular cost-performance plateau is where we struck our claim. Also, the ultra audio grade parts we have today were not available ten or twenty years ago. Here's a Sunday Morning Flight of Fantasy from the memory bank. About 1990 with the CS2.2 and a hefty hand-full of new products in the pipeline, I speculated about an opportunity to reach a different market. The company didn't want to go that way, mainly because of the confusion it might create. But here's a sketch. Create a new marketing entity. My name was 'Perigee - the closest approach'. Products would be developed based on the foundation-chassis of emerging Thiel products. The CS6 and 3.6 were in development. Products would reach elevated levels of aesthetics and performance. Performance would be via ideas like we are now exploring: better parts, internal or external cooling, bi and/or tri-wire with customer assistance to get it right. The cabinets would incorporate some eased or rounded edges or panels, use of exotic materials, super-selected veneers with sophisticated scraped and French-polished surfaces. Each finished pair would be optimized in the anechoic chamber rather than simply verifying its performance within tolerances as in production Thiels. A corollary might be super performance professional monitors in service-clad rather than furniture grade cabinets. We had some high-end production and mastering labs using our speakers by that time. Markets would be upscale. Prices might be double or triple those of stock. Although I call the idea fantasy. Its presentation and discussion were real - but its feasibility was very weak. Thiel was already straining under its relentless 30%/ year growth pressure. Taking on more was unthinkable. Just for grins, I googled 'Perigee Audio' and it seems that an Australian has undertaken a similar idea with another historic line of speakers. However, I suspect such an idea might work for some enterprising young company. Who knows if Coherent Source Service might stretch into such a role . . . Isn't life interesting. |
Btw, I found a date of my CS2.4 https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16097433/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20190119-164001.jpg |
beatlemania,Thanks :) I realize that the investment I made (> € 750) is not really realistic with a new loudspeaker of €5000 (bought them for €1600), but it is amazing how eagerly the CS2.4 appreciates the parts!! I have had many (Magnapan, Kharma, Audiostatic, Kef, Oragle-Helicon, Red Rose Music, Aurum Cantus, Scansonic, etc etc) loudspeakers and I usually improve the crossovers because there is usually a lot to be gained but there is no one that comes even close to this Thiel loudspeaker :) Wish Jim Thiel was still alive so I could shake his hands with respect!! |
Nice job, @holco a second confirmation that Thiel performance can be elevated to the next tier by better passive parts. TBF, the parts I have were not available when the 2.4 was introduced. And if they were, they might have nearly doubled the retail price! I think Tom is working on a solution that gets most of the SQ I’m hearing but for less money. But final costs may be influenced depending on whether you have Lexington or FST boards. |
Prof, welcome to the final destination on the ride. Ha! I know myself too well to think I’ve settled on my last and only speaker. I’m polygamous with speakers. As I’ve said: my Thiels are so wonderful overall I really can’t imagine ever selling them. I’d truly end up kicking myself. So if I get new speakers it will be in addition to the Thiels, not replacing them. As per my previous report: I listened to a fantastic Chet Baker album, featuring beautifully recorded trumpet, sax and flute, at my pal’s place, and then later spun it at home. The clarity at my pal’s place was extremely impressive. But at home on the Thiels (and CJ amps) it wasn’t only clear, the trump and sax were so much bigger, richer, had more realistic weight and presence and that elusive organic quality. Joni Mitchell singing on Blue at my pal’s place was, again, impressively clear, but it wasn’t a human being: just a bunch of "super detail" where her voice seemed sort of disembodied and taken apart in the sound field.At home the Thiels focused all the sound so it all sounded like it was coming from the same place, a person in between the speakers, with body, roundness, appropriate softness, sibilance sounding like breath not like an electronic artifact, etc. |
I have now finished the coax crossover of the right speaker and am listening to music with a big smile on my face, incredible how much such an upgrade brings!! And now also the CS2.4 shows its appreciation with the nicer parts :) Still a lot to do, but it's all worth it see link for the photos, https://holco.picturepush.com/album/1171389/p-Thiel-CS-2.4.html |
Prof, welcome to the final destination on the ride. Been there, done that. Could have bought cars over what was spent. Now my system is a lot like yours, beautiful, ever-present and faithful Thiels, fed by a big warm Classe, with a 58 year old tubed preamp full of ancient bottles conducting the arrangements. Is it full of distortion and is ruefully unfaithful to the waveforms? You betcha. But when Nancy Wilson steps up and starts singing, she is RIGHT THERE. Goosebumps always, media permitting. And isn’t that why we go to all this trouble, to come home, pour a nice drink, and luxuriate in our musical retreat? IMO, when you are left always listening to the equipment itself, and never the artistry of the music, you have forgotten the destination. Others I’m sure will feel differently. |
Andy2, The measurement was taken from the listening spot with Dirac Live in my living room, there is no way to get perfect measurements without a treated dedicated audio room, that I don't have :( The device I use to compensate my room with great results. https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a |
I did some listening at a friend's house. He recently moved from tube amps (AR) to a solid state Bryston amp.Vinyl set up. He has access to high end stuff so he currently has a $25,000 phono stage, $12,000 cartridge, and extremely revealing speakers from Vivid (replacing for the moment his smaller monitors from another company). I've heard his system get more and more transparent and detailed along the way. And...I could barely listen to it by this point. To my ears, it was all super detail and transparency, without a bit of human or organic warmth at. All icy and cold and thin and hardened. When I got back and spun tunes on my Thiel/Conrad Johnson set up, I just wanted the hug my system, it was so much bigger, richer, more beautiful and satisfying. |
Looking at my last Dirac Live measurement there seems to be a shoot over around 800hz > 1000hz, so the 30hz won't be a loss at that point. [URL=https://picturepush.com/public/16097034][IMG]https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16097034/1024/Thie...] |
tomthiel, The coil's are completely waxed, don't know how hard the layers stick to each other, if I demolish them I lose the guarantee to get new one's. I suspect that the woofer is 4ohm, with a 6db crossover a 0.72mH coil cross at 880Hz, 0.75mH will cross at of 850Hz, so the loss will be about 30Hz. Yes iff I want I can measure it with REW, but I don't want to complete the crossovers with the 0.75mH coil's. |
holco - unwinding is very common practice. I've never done a foil wax, but it sounds easier than a bonded coil. I'm not following your math. 30 Hz seems like a big change. The complex effective resistance will be different with foil vs round. Can you measure the actual crosspoint change? We always wound oversized and unwound to taste in R&D. |
Measured the received Jantzen Cross coil’s, the two 0.15mH measure both 0.152 but the two 0.72mH Jantzen wax coil’s measure 0.749mH and 0.750mH :( This will lower the crossover for the woofer about 30hz (880hz vs 850hz), my first thought is to send them back and wait another month for new one’s but maybe one of you guys have other thoughts about this? There is also the option that I unwind them to get 0.72mH, did that before in the past but never on a foil wax coil. |
Through all of Jim's final listening / troubleshooting / optimizing phases, the parts were mounted on the actual crossover boards with all input and output leads attached to real drivers in their real cabinets. Therefore any leakage, environmental changes, etc. would be accounted for in the final as-built design. Our changes affect his outcomes and we will be reassessing actual measured performance and tweaking values as necessary. I expect our expanded layouts to exhibit less crosstalk as well as greater thermal stability. But our target slopes and voicing will be the same as Jim's |
beetlemania, I'm aware of the do's and don'ts placing coil's, how to placing coil's near capacitors is new info for me, thanks for the link :) But like you said, there will be more space on the bigger PCB's, and if Jim Thiel didn't calculate the specific distances between the coil's I see no problem but rather an improvement. |