@tomthiel, updates for the 3.5’s is outstanding news. Bravo!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,549 responses Add your response
Dino - you may know that I had axed the 3.5 from my original short list upgrade program because of driver availability problems. However, through this thread and other investigations, I sense that the 3.5, along with the 2.4 are the strongest candidates for an AfterLife. So, they are now on our (Rob and my) radar. Eventually we will have a complete solution for them. Crossover tweaking must wait for replacement drivers, since upgrading crossovers for unavailable drivers is a futile exercise. I suggest that you try to limp along for now and that we will have more good news later. |
Unsound Thank you for the advise but at the moment I would keep as vintage as possible. I'll read anyway previous post on this issue. Tomthiel To recap, you and Rob are diggin' in to find a solution for both tweeter and midrange. Great! I am staying still patiently waiting for any news here!!! You are right, I played loud (very much loud) in clip mode for some seconds, my Accuphase maybe does not like going that low (ohms).... Has anybody ever had issue with the woofer, you know yesterday looking at the speakers I though it was a shame that a so well maintained pair of speakers was not working, there is letterally no scratch, no dent, nothing... but looking better with no grille... the midrange (both), It was like they just came from a "desert storm" campaign, they look like they are very, very used, but also looking at the ads on ebay or so they are the like, just do not fit with the other speakers and the beautiful wooden/black speaker. My woofer instead is really, I believe, like it was in the 90's, shining, the foam intact... just thinking out loud I love these speakers and I do not want to think to move on something different... I listen to a lot of speaker weekly, and the only decent one I would pick are Kharma, Martin Logan, B&W (not many...) Sonus Faber.... whose price is 100 times more the 3.5..... |
Dino - I believe the Dynaudio D28AF / 3.5 tweeter is no longer produced. Rob would have an idea of what best to do. We are looking for a long-term solution for that tweeter. Regarding unsound's correct power information - there is often confusion between steady-state (RMS) and music-power requirements. US's notes all refer to amplifier requirements for musical program, which is transient in nature and therefore does not generate much heat in the voice coil. The huge majority of failures are caused by underpowering and driving the speaker with a clipped signal, which overheats and burns out the driver. The other failure mode is eventual fatigue of the voice coil leads due to long excursions during many years of service. Someone on this forum mentioned a 7-year life-cycle, which seems reasonable if used vigorously. Safest mode is a large power amp and reasonable listening levels - turn off if you hear distortion. My bridged DR9s produce 1200 watts into 2 ohms - I don't worry about burning out drivers. |
@dinopau, I haven't actually tried this, but you might be able to work around the Thiel 3.5's eq with a Roon Core, though I think you'll need one with an i7 processor chip in order to take advantage of the eq capabilities. I'd strongly recommend taking tomthiels's recommendation to reverse the cable leads first, to rule out other considerations first. |
@thielrules, The 3.5's midrange is much sturdier than you might be suggesting. Thiel recommended (depending on model year) between 40 or 50 and 250 Watts per channel for the 3.5's. That's for an 8 Ohm amplifier. Into the Thiel 3.5's 4 Ohm load with a quality amp that can double down, that would be 500 Watts per channel. Jim Thiel even suggested that 300 Watts per channel (8 Ohm rating) might be appropriate in some cases. I've been using a 250 Watt per channel amp capable of doubling down without incident for years with my Thiel 3.5's. Look at the magnet assembly on those midranges, they could embarrass some woofers. The paper surrounds can need maintenance from time to time but, I'd hazard a guess that Thiel received more damaged drivers due to under powered amps than from over powered ones. The 3.5's eq with it's 12 dB boost at 20 Hz can put additional demands on the amplification, though the impedance bump at the that very frequency range mitigates the extra power demands some what. |
I researched “plasma speaker” and found this for your perusal , really interesting and who could imagine it working? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_speaker#/media/File%3AMoeller_Plasma.jpg Dave |
tomthiel, Thank you for the update/advise on noise. Looking forward seeing you and Rob getting back to us with a positive outcome on midrange test. Any guesstimate on price? As for the tweeter, is this produced (Dynaudio D28AF, correct?)? if not what can be used without altering the crossover filter? Lastly, if Rob still has my Bass eq (220V) and is gonna repairing one day, I am ALWAYS available to pay for the refurbishment. Jafant, Thank you for appreciating my gear.... |
Dinopau - hiss and noise from one channel means there is something wrong. Swapping leads can isolate the problem to its source component. If the verdict is noise from the right speaker, the problem is probably failed electrolytic capacitors. They don't last forever, and at ~ 30 years, their life-span is expiring. Direct replacements can be bought from Madisound, etc. for short money. |
2.2ers - I received a pair of 2.2s serial #s 2697 & 2698 in mint condition, on loan from an old dealer from my tenure at Thiel . I recognize the veneer that I bought in upland Bolivia. It is a separate species of Pau Ferro which we renamed "Amberwood" to differentiate it from the more common lowland / purple Pau Ferro which we called "Morado". It's hard to believe that someone took such care - they are over 20 years old and pristine. Their use will be as my unmodified base reference as I make changes to my 2.2 workhorses. He will get his pair upgraded in appreciation of the loan. |
3.5ers - The 3.5 EQ should be repairable. Someone here led me to a DIY schematic - very complete and thorough. I am forwarding that to Rob at CSS in case there might be some additional value there. Regarding the 3.5 midrange - Rob has samples of a new ScanSpeak driver coming for testing. The supplier says it should need no XO modification. Rob and I will confirm that or devise a xo update kit to make it work. |
dinopau You own a very nice Accuphase system. I have always wanted to demo their gear. It certainly does not appear to be an electronics/speaker mismatch per se. Thank You for citing Mr. Gillum's attempt to repair the EQ and mentioning oblgny's assistance as well. I do not have any information on wether or not these devices are repairable? Between the collection of minds here, hope there is a viable solution at issue. |
Jafant, I run my 3.5’s with a pre Accuphase c260, power amp Accuphase p360, cd Marantz UD7007, tuntable denon dp55k, tonearm SME 3009, all bought used except the cd. Cables kimber KS, and Audioquest both balanced. OBLGN also gave me his eq for FREE but the pre had some issue and was never gonna able using it as only one channel worked when the tape loop was on. I then bought another bass eq on eBay, same issue. Previously I shipped my original bass eq (count is 3...) to Mr Gillum that was unable to repair (mayby I didn’t say it was 220V?) and NEVER ship it back to me (Italy). Thielrules Now I am really without music in my house and happy to listen scan speak is providing replacement, which I hope will be for both tweeter and midrange. Will the crossover need some modifications as well? thanks |
The thing with the first order XO is that all drivers are exposed to a wide frequency band and the 3.5 mid-range is not able to handle a high power, rated at about 50 W. Been talking this afternoon to Rob about the various alternatives for this driver now that they can no longer be rebuild not replaced. Scan speak is promoting a driver as a replacement and Rob is now working on testing to see how they compare. May know more in 2 weeks. Have a few other alternatives that may do the job but they may require some adaptations to the opening as they have a slightly larger diameter. Stay tuned as measurements and listening tests are conducted. |
oblgny As always, good to see you here. Whenever a query regarding the 3.5 model is posted, you are the first Panelist that enters my mind. As above, read over the post by dinopau and offer an opinion on his situation. I, for one, look forward to your audiot return my Audiophile friend. Hope you are well and thawing out from Winter on this Spring day. Happy Listening! |
Interesting dialogue about Thiel and Maggie’s... Previously, I’ve stated that Thiel struck me as Maggies with more bass. I stick with that. I’ve had two pairs of the MMG -.one with the bass module which did ZIP to augment anything good about them - a pair of 3.6qr, a pair of 1.7 and a pair of 1.7i. With the exception of the MMG the one thing that kept me from keeping any of the others was their physicality. I have a fairly accommodating space for large speakers and whatnot, but I felt as though they were imposing on me. One very early morning as I was headed downstairs I looked ahead quickly and for a moment thought there was someone standing in my living room. Alas, as my sleep fog lifted and I came back to reality I saw it was just the right Maggie. I absolutely enjoyed the Maggies and I remain a fan. For one, they’re a helluva lot lighter than Thiels are, and secondly they simply present music in a very engrossing, involving way. I spent a lot of time reacquainting myself with favorite records with them. Though Thiel presents the bass better, I never felt the Maggies lacked it - even though by comparison they do. Both brands presented bass in what I think is a very organic, natural, uncolored manner. Thiel just offers more, along with a smaller physical - especially vertically - footprint. When I return to being a full time “audiot” I’m quite sure I’ll be bouncing between these two again - especially since Coherent Source is in business. |
The long-term mutually productive relationship between Thiel and Magnepan may be of interest here. We shared a large majority of our dealers. Dave Gordon came from Magnepan to be Thiel's national sales manager for a decade or more, when he returned there. Both products were well driven by the same source chains. But their presentation was fundamentally different. A Thiel speaker acts as a point source, reproducing what the microphone heard (if we ignore all chain anomalies.) A Magnepan acts as a large dipole, creating its signature sound field in the playback room (augmenting what the microphone heard.) The two approaches aren't really competitive, they are thoroughly different. It is not uncommon for listeners to have two systems, one built around each type of speaker. One of Thiel's first reviews was from Scott Estes writing for "The Sensible Sound", who was and remained a committed Magnepan user. He appreciated in print the Thiel presentation, but he wasn't tempted to trade in his Maggies. Hello Scott, if you're out there. |
Thanks! I am excited about the Magnepans. I'm not giving up my Thiels though! These are in a different league than the Magnepans of the past in terms of coherence and bass delivery. I heard deep real bass and an apparently seamless frequency range so they've improved that ribbon tweeter, or the crossover. Or both. I should have them in a few days and will report back. I had some small Magnepans about 30 years ago and outside of small ensemble / chamber music they weren't very worthwhile. These are in another class all together. |
@Pwhinson, a first order cross-over might be the only cross-over capable of time and phase coherence. The single driver Quad ESL 63’s and the quasi-multi driver Ohm Walsh, etc., did it without an electrical cross-over. Even with a first order cross-over a multi driver loudspeaker will need physically staggered drivers, and as you pointed out wide bandwidth drivers, that will in all probablility need compensating components added to the first order cross-overs to behave as as a time and phase coherent loudspeaker system. |
@unsound. Richard Vandersteen and Jim Thiel believed the ONLY thing that can make multi driver speakers time and phase coherent IS a first order crossover. Nothing more nothing less. That assumes the drivers are capable of taking advantage of the first order crossover and its more difficult slopes. (1) YES there are two drivers in ADDITION to the ribbon tweeter in a 20.7...so, NO there is NOT one "panel/driver" in a 20.7. Maybe the confusion arises because you have two drivers in a single panel in the 20.7 and just about all the Magnepans...and in the higher tiers they blend a long narrow ribbon tweeter into the panels. Its a three-way speaker inclusive of the ribbon tweeter. (2) YES these speakers do produce a perfect square wave because the crossover IN THE SPEAKER is first order and time and phase coherent. Unlike the earlier 3 series speakers there is no external crossover, rather its now built into the body of the .7 series speakers. (3) YES my reference to a "crossover" was to the EXTERNAL VANDERSTEEN crossover for the transition from the 20.7s to the Vandersteen subs. (3) YES the external Vandersteen crossover is ALSO first order. (4) YES I did prefer the sound of the 20.7’s by themselves to that of the sound produced by the 20.7s, the vandersteen crossover, and the vandersteen subs as I stated above. The Maggies were crossed over at 100 hz to the Vandy subs (pretty high if you ask me). Still, I expected more from the combination thinking that this would be a very clean way to integrate subs into the Maggies but what I found was that on the 20.7 (and I guess on the 30.7 with the extra bass panel per side), the bass is far superior than what Maggies used to be able to achieve in the past. It was clean and coherent and DEEP. The Vandy subs just smeared not only the deep bass but the upper bass as well. I really expected more. But the 20.7 is truly a great speaker I would say especially for classical music. Truly extraordinary I think. I also have since bought a pair of 20.7s (!). I liked em that much. |
Also out of curiosity, why would you need a cross over for the Magnepan? Isn't it just a single panel? The crossover was probably for the subs. A lot of people don't like subs with Maggies because they feel that the sub is sluggish compared to the mylar panel. There are many different models of maggies, though. The 3.6R, for instance, has three drivers per speaker and an external crossover that separates the lows, which go to the bass panels, from everything else. There is also an internal crossover for the midrange panel and ribbon tweeter. |
Actually the Magnepan although physically composed of just one panel, it is not technically a single driver in term of phase response. Different parts of the panel will not move in complete synchronization therefore certain part of the panel will have different phase vs. some other part. Also out of curiosity, why would you need a cross over for the Magnepan? Isn't it just a single panel? |
In my continuing flirting with other speakers apart from my beloved 2.4s, I heard the Magnepan 20.7's yesterday run with Vandersteen crossovers (the ones that come with the 7s) and two Vandersteen subs. Impressive but on most music I preferred the sound of the Magnepans by themselves without the subs. Time and phase coherent first order crossovers all the way around. |
OMG what a great story about Nelson and the hospital visit..... I may have been at that CES dont forget the Dayton Wright either!!!! One engineering techniqe is managing a balanced tradespace or even a weighted tradespace and being serious about your priority.... image, pitch, transparency, spl peak, spl Duty rating, etc Jafant gave good advice on seeking out 5a and a better audition of the 2 series Thiel have fun enjoy the music protect your hearing !!!!! jim |
Unsound - good question. I think that suspicion arises because in later years there was sourcing of parts and some production to China, raising related questions. My general comments are that Thiel products were extremely finished at introduction. Nonetheless over time there were some refinements and/or adjustments for differences between as-designed and as-implemented. A common factor was that drivers' resonance modes might average slightly different than the original prototypes, so small XO changes would compensate. Final testing compared every speaker to a standard in an anechoic chamber, which is how various drifting, etc. was identified. As a general rule, quality and consistency improved through the model life, as experience taught its idiosyncrasies. |
laserjock1963 Thank You for the update. It seems like the speakers auditioned by your friend were under-powered via the Onkyo? Room acoustics and speaker placement may have had a negative impression as well? I can advise to hold out for a personal audition, as a time-phase-coherent loudspeaker, is a different design from traditional. At the least, seek out a Vandersteen 3A Signature or 5A model there in the Dallas/Houston/SATX area, until a Thiel Audio speaker becomes available. From experience, contact John Fort Audio in Dallas. He usually has quite a bit of used/demo gear on-hand and is a pleasure to consult. Happy Listening! |
I had a buddy audition the pair of 2.4s in the Atlanta area that didn’t go so well. He brought his laptop with Mytek DAC to play some familiar stuff. The seller has a very high ceiling and is only driving the speakers with a higher end Onkyo. Obviously, my buddy couldn’t get a true feel how they sound compared to what he’s used to but he said he went in wanting to like them and be as unbiased as he could. (He has Revel F208s with 2 REL subs in a smaller room) He mentioned that the sound-stage and imaging was good but that was all he liked about them. I have decided to hold off on the purchase of them but if I can find someone in the Houston/Austin/San Antonio Texas area that would be willing to give me an audition, then I could get a better idea for myself. Anyone? I’m the meantime, thanks for the help and info from this community. Chria |
Right now using my Modwright LS36.5DM preamp with my Mivera SE ICEPower amp (and have the EVS version with two mono modules on order). I use an EMM Labs DAC 2X and a Lumin U1 (reading files from my NAS) as a source. I was using cables I made from the stranded Neotech silver/gold alloy with Mundorf RCA but tried a Teo Audio GC Ultra between the DAC and preamp and that made a nice improvement. If the new amp works out (the AS1200 module supposedly sounds much better in balanced but when I got it was not aware and I do have an integrated AV system and probably going to ditch the HT Bypass and just swap cables for the 10-12 times/year I watch TV or a movie in the main system). Likely going to get another Teo audio cable too. |
thanks Unsounds for all the good info. You are a lot more technical than me as a lot of that is over my head, but I certainly appreciate your continuing contributions to this discussion. Until i got the 3.7's, i only owned four generations of the two series, and i do not think they were as difficult to drive as speakers such as the cs5 or 7.2. Years ago a friend had a three series with an equalizer, but i forgot the model. that one i think was tougher. sdl4: welcome to our little world of Thiel lovers. It is fun for sure. I understand about the increased dollars, but if you ever get a chance to hear a pair of 2.4's take it for sure. |
@ronkent, I too have been steadily using Thiels for over 30 years. I never considered myself a "headbanger", and as I've said before, ultimate volume levels is a low priority for me. Still, it's a relevant aspect and I'm confident that Jim Thiel gave considered effort addressing it. As one moves up the Thiel range, one of the advantages is that the speakers become more capable of moving more air, with greater dynamic range and ultimate volume levels. Let's look at what Larry Archibald former editor and former owner of Stereophile had to write about Thiel's and dynamic range.: https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs12-loudspeaker-page-2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs2-loudspeaker-larry-archibald-page-2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs35-loudspeaker-page-2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs5-loudspeaker-page-3-0 In some cases more recent models seemed to trade some bass response for greater loudness capabilities. Thiel's might not have the ultimate volume levels of some of the big horns, but, neither are they limited, like so many panels are. They might not be the best in any single category, but IMHO they can offer very good to excellent performance across the board in every category, save perhaps for generosity in amplifier compatibility. |