Thiel Owners
I've had the little Thiel 02s in my system for quite a while and they continued to enthrall me. I still think they somehow get a sense of the exact differences in materials, and the way an instrument produces it's sound, than maybe anything else I've owned. But I just switched back to the 2.7s which are of course overall more sophisticated and enveloping. Among the most satisfying differences is the sheer sense of ease a bigger floor stander gives. The small two way 02s quickly give a sense of becoming strained when asked to produce more rousing music at higher volumes (though, within a comfortable volume limit, they still seem to convey more liveliness and enthusiasm in some sense). But the ease and dynamics of the 2.7s seem almost unrestricted in comparison. Strings swell, horns blast, drums pound, the sound breathes dynamically in more convincing and unrestrained manner. Which is why I've never been able to stick just to smaller stand mounted speakers for the long haul. |
pgastone I know exactly what you mean about re-hooking the 3.7s up and realizing you can't do without them. I went through something like 2 years thinking I had to replace my 3.7s due to decor and ergonomic issues in my room (a bit too big). But every time I hooked them up I realized they outdid everything else I heard, including speakers I bought to try as replacements. I was only "saved" by finding the slightly smaller Thiel 2.7s which gave me that Thiel sound and did enough of what the 3.7s did to let me finally sell my 3.7s. On the same "proof is in the pudding" level, despite what I'd heard about Thiels being super current hungry and necessitating beefy solid state amps, I found my conrad johnson tube amps drove them beautifully, as they do for my 2.7s. It all depends on the demands any particular person puts on the speakers, and what sonic characteristics are most important to us. |
Hello Thiel owners- jafant asked me to join the thread as I am a Thiel 3.7 owner and I have been on a quest to get the most out of them at my budget- right now looking to maybe replace my current preamp or possibly the dac. You can see my original post from the amplifier/preamplifier section regarding this issue. By way of introduction you should know that my 1st serious speaker ever was the Thiel 1.2 that I bought from Innovative Audio in NY in the late 80's- which I STILL own. In fact I own a total of 9 pairs of Thiels: my house is wired with 6 pairs of in-ceiling Thiels for general listening, 3 pairs in my home theater fronted by 3.6's and an MSC 1 center. And now my main 2 channel rig has the 3.7's. I came to these after I was using a pair of Focal Micro Utopia Be's but decided to try a more full range speaker. I found a pair of 3.7's at a good price in my area about 3yrs ago- the owner had barely used them after he got them. I wasn't sure they would look right in the context of the room decor but I thought I would try to swing it. Honestly, it didn't really work. SO i decided to get a smaller floor stander and sell the Thiels- I went with a pair Magico's S1Mk1. After about 6 to 8 months with Magico's I decided I didn't love but I would stick with them- for the size and used price they are really an outstanding speaker. I finally got around to being serious about selling the Thiels and for fun I hooked them up again- well, they have never left the rig since. They are simply in another league in terms of presence, imaging, texture etc. And the "decor" was just going to have to suffer. So now the Magico's will be on the selling block (although I am notoriously bad at just accumulating- I have to get my sh!t together and get rid of some stuff). Sorry, I have rambled on enough. The post below explains what I am trying to do now. The other matter that interests me is if there are ways to improve the crossover- I have been reading tomthiel's posts and when it might be possible to try an upgrade I think I will go for it. Btw, I saw that on ebay there is a person selling an added external crossover for Thiel 3.7's- anyone have any experience with that? I ask because if I were to nitpick a defect in the 3.7 sound I would say that maybe they can be a little "hot"in upper frequencies which can remove a bit of the organic quality of the musical performance. Anyway, it is a pleasure to meet you all. Here is my other post: Thiel 3.7's and Pass Labs xa60.5's- now looking for the next upgrade I finally took the plunge and bought a pair xa60.5's mono's to drive my Thiels- and the upgrade has brought my system to a whole new level. I was looking to get a deeper, more developed soundstage and with the Pass mono's I got more than I was expecting: the speakers virtually disappear, and you can see into the performance- the sound has a much more refined texture and everything is more fleshed out. So now I am wondering what should be the next step up. What I am looking to do is to get more spatial cues, and I suppose detail, to have a better sense of the recording venue and bring me closer to that sense of a live performance. My intention is to stay with Pass Labs and the Thiel's so I am thinking more of a preamp or dac upgrade. The preamp is a Primaluna Dialogue Premium with Telefunken Nos tubes and the dac is a Moon 280d. Cabling is Nordost except for the power cords to the amps which I built myself and which really did make a very marked difference- more bass and presence than before with stock cords. Both the dac and preamp are very good in their own right so changing either to get a significant upgrade along the lines I described above rather than a sideways step isn't going to be easy. So I am interested in any advice and thoughts from fellow audiogoners. Here is a brief description of how my system evolved. I was originally driving the Thiels with Mac MA7000 integrated- the power amp section is basically a hot-rodded ma252. The first upgrade I decided to try was to bypass the preamp section with the Prima Luna and that was a revelation. The sound was transformed. Then I started doing research on a replacement for the Mac altogether. It took me a long time and I considered a lot of options. What put me on the path to the Pass Labs was the suggestion from a friend, an electrical engineer that is also passionate about audio, that I take a look at a Luxman class A amp. I had never really considered this option as the Thiels are not easy to drive but as my friend pointed out the issue would not be the watts as the Thiels are 90db but the power supply which needs to feed an impedance load that does dip below 3 Ohms across a significant portion of the frequency spectrum. Anyway, I wasn't able to find a Luxman at my budget and it was than I got the suggestion to consider Pass- the xa30.8. I was intrigued and called Pass and had a long conversation with them and they indeed are very familiar with the Thiels- and they too confirmed that their amps would have no problem driving them. Anyway, just as I was mullling this over a pair of xa60.5's came up at a good price from a great a'goner and so I went ahead with that. And btw, I have heard some suggest that Pass does not deal well with low impedance loads- it is simply not the case- not at all in fact and the proof is in the pudding: the Thiels sound GREAT. Anyway, any suggestions and advice would be great. Many thx as always! |
@harrylavo, 1000x yes. I have a similar setup with 2.2s and a Yamaha HT receiver that had a list price around $900 but that I got for about $300. It is a great little system. Ridiculously, obscenely good for the money. If I had found that combination when I was 25 I may have stopped there because I don't think I would've seen any need for improvement. The thing that kept me upgrading was that there was always something that seemed a little off. There's nothing about that system that seems off. It won't go really loud and won't do the deepest bass but it is thoroughly enjoyable and that is what matters. |
A budget system featuring 2 2's that performs way over its head! Since I downsized into my apartment last year, I have had a convenience system in my combined den-office-dining room for pretty casual listening. (My main system holds forth in the living room and is built around 3.5's.) Over the last few months I have picked up some audio bargains to swap in to feed the 2 2's. One big improvement was an old Amber 70 amp I remember from my Absolute Sound days, which after break-in seems to make the 2 2's into new speakers, with a harmonic richness in the upper bass-lower midrange that the Adcom 5300 used previously just didn't seem to be able to provide. Then the old temporary Onkyo preamp I was using got replaced with another, also intended to be temporary, preamp - a Carver C-2. Another Carver product that performs way beyond its price, and replaced mid-fi with a high-end sound. Along the way way I picked up a Carver TX-2 tuner that sounds almost as good as its bigger brother, the TX-11 and finally, bought a Denon 47F semi-automatic direct-drive turntable, ostensibly for a lady friend, but which now resides in the second system. I am currently trying to decide whether to upgrade the Audio-Technica M92E cartridge it came with with a Shibata stylus, substitute an XLM/ZLM cartridge, or just leave it alone. As it is, the capacitance of the Carver seems perfect for the AT, and the phono system sounds wonderful. Why is this in a Thiel thread, you ask? Because I am a frustrated high end and Thiel missionary, that's why. Other than the 2 2's which I've had forever and which are worth, what, maybe $800 on todays market, the remainder of the system as outlined.cost just under another $1000. So for less than two grand somebody can have a good, really good, high end system. If you have a friend, a college kid, a relative, anybody who likes music but doesn't want a system (I don't need it, I can't afford it, my earphones are fine, etc) tell them how little it can cost, and how much pleasure it can bring. Then go get them the gear. Mine is headed for that lady friend in Florida (who never before wanted a stereo much less a high-end one.) End of lesson, according to Harry. |
Heads up Thiel friends, there is a pair of 3.7’s that just landed on eBay. I have been looking for a pair since January and this is the first US pair I have seen land on eBay. They look good to me and seem to be priced right. I hope someone that will cherish them ends up with them. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-Speakers-CS-3-7-Pristine/113720348712?hash=item1a7a42d028:g:5YkAAOSwMupctcW7&frcectupt=true |
jafant Be sure, I'll do all my best to report here info and photos to share with all audiophile fellows. thielisteNice!...looking forward for your message. Currently I'm looking to a best/cheapest fly to book to get Munich from Italy. |
tomthiel Very interesting tidbits about Thiel cabinet designs and your thoughts about how to improve them. As said by that very wise gentleman, Willie Wonka: “the suspense is terrible. I hope it will last.” In the case of the 3.6 upgrades, only the first part of that quote applies — but I do appreciate all the work and planning that is involved. It sounds like the 3.6R rebuild will push my admittedly finite DIY skills to the limit! Can’t wait. 👍 |
bumpin around on youtube, thought this might be of interest. Rob Gillum being interviewed. You don’t have to wonder if he's a believer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55tQUNsE7GA |
Many thanks Tom and to all others who have graciously commented thus far! I figured the 2.2 tweeters might be compatible matches for the 3.6s given the same manufacturing year (1993). I've already been in a dialogue with Rob and he informed me that he could probably repair them if necessary. Currently mine are in good working order however, my 16 year old son and I kid around about NOT blowing the them; often referring to Jim Thiel who apparently was prone to blowing his on the 3.7s during shows in the day, lol. Glad to be on board the forum guys. I currently have my 3.6s powered by ARC DS 450Ms and loving the sound! Just recently added Signal Magic power cords (replacing the stock cords) and found the center mid-band to have more presence as well as more pronouced bass and soundstage imaging. Looking forward to more as they continue to burn in; so far about 100 hours or so. Eventually, I might look to refurbishing/upgrading the crossovers and I'm sure I'll have many questions for you all along the way. I'll keep you posted. |
Ron - It's good to be here. This project wouldn't be happening without you guys. The 3.7 is perhaps at the end of the timeline, since it is a very well optimized design and not in danger of cap failure. Especially, the cabinet is pretty quiet, but not totally - gains could be made. However, the crossover can benefit from passive component improvements. By the time we get to 3.7s we'll know more than we do now. In the WayBack Machine - Cabinets and their materials. The 01 and 02 were particle board, which is stiffer than MDF, but less well damped - and it doesn't like to be machined. MDF was a new material in the late 70s and we adopted it for consistency, damping and machinability. BUT the 03 and 03a remained multi-ply Finland Birch plywood which was superior in every way except the lack of predictability of its resonances. In the development of what became the CS3, I experimented with making curved plywood panels, which were magic. But we lacked the resources to develop and incorporate that solution into our products. CurvedPly became one of many "somedays" in the dream sequence. I smile that Thiel eventually came back to that solution and pulled it off very well. |
Rosami - Good question about who installs what how and where. At this point the situation is more like a stew simmering on the stove than a clearly delineated plan. It is probable that we will develop a bag of tricks, some of which can be implemented by the user, or perhaps regionally certified technicians. As upgrades become higher in complexity, cost and expectation, it is probable that process testing will become relevant, such as right-left matching or actual driver performance to tweak xo values. So, there will probably be various solutions, and probability that consultation will be part of the mix to determine an upgrade strategy for your particular vision. Regarding cabinet bracing: Thiel cabinets are very rigid, but there are always weak spots in any outcome. I will address those weak spots and devise fixes which must be retrofittable, because we'll be working through driver openings, and possibly be removing a bottom. My emerging method of promise is to use wooden sticks to join adjacent panels in critical places. Since Thiel panels are braced with MDF cross shelves, the Modulus of Elasticity, deformation characteristics, damping, etc. is simple. Dissimilar materials introduce desired complexity. Long-grain solid spruce possesses relevant engineering properties about 10x greater than MDF. Adjacent panel connection introduces differing geometric forces (from shelves) which serves to mechanically damp resonances without introducing mass, as viscous damping strategies do. All this is to say that I have been working on this cabinet problem, since the cabinets were my work to begin with. Among the tools I have applied is a digital stethoscope which allows me to listen to the cabinet with my ears simultaneously to exporting data for real-time visual (SpectraFoo) analysis along with storage for further FFT based processing. This Thiel project is encouraging me to develop such methods which will also apply to my musical instrument development work. I love synergy. |
jafant Locating a nice pair of 2.4s was a lucky find. I agree that Thiels can sound very good with a wide range of electronics and really amazing when mix is just right. IMO one of the best features of Thiel speakers is their transparency to the source; I think this is a key reason so many of us own, hold onto and decide to upgrade them rather than jump ship to another brand. We’re a lucky bunch - with Tom T. keeping the faith alive, Rob G. keeping all those models running smoothly and a devoted and knowledgeable fan-base! |
Jon Glad we’re on the same wavelength and of the same opinion re our 3.6s. It sounds like we’ll have to have patience while Tom develops his ideas and research on the changes for the 3.6Rs. I will have to decide whether I send my tweeters and mids to be checked/rebuilt by CSS now (to get a jump on refurbishing my 3.6s) or wait until the updates are available before doing so. Either way, the 3.6s are keepers. |
tomthiel Thanks for your interesting comments regarding the 2.4s vs 3.6s. If sounds like your carefully researched upgrade for the 3.6s will be worth the wait! I don’t recall if you previously mentioned that the 3.6 upgrade would also include improvements to the enclosure stiffness. Would you be able to address that further and provide additional thoughts on what you’re planning for enclosure improvements? Would it be part of some kind of kit or would it require DIY and woodworking skills? Damm - I managed to keep this disease in-check for many years but it’s back with a vengeance now! |
tomthiel Thank You for addressing the query from stspur. I wanted to give you guys an update on this beautiful Spring day here in the deep South. I took stock of the AYRE DX-5 universal player. This is a cherry of a spinner that made its way from Colorado back to me with a new drive/transport laser assembly. Said player is now glitch-free, providing superb, CD/SACD playback. (2) shout outs are in order. First- to the guys at Hifi Buys Atlanta. Second- to Mr. Gary Mulder head of customer service at Ayre Acoustics Boulder. Presentation and sound mated with the Twenty Series electronics are damn fine. I will post a pic in a few days via Virtual Systems. Happy Listening! |
Spur - Rob Gillum of Coherent Source Service has repair parts and experience for all Thiel models. To your direct question: Yes, same tweeter. That tweeter was developed fully in-house for the CS5 and also used in the 2.2 as well as the 3.6. Of course it has been eclipsed by further ongoing development of rare earth focusing magnets and such, but it is a very good tweeter incorporating considerable sophistication. There are probably somewhere around 25K of them out there, so snag them when you can. |
rosami Nice score on the CS 2.4 loudspeaker in beautiful Cherry finish. You have an excellent pair of ears my Audiophile friend, as your precise description of the presentation and sound of the 2.4, is accurate. As evidenced by my earlier posts upon starting this thread back in 2016, the hidden musical value of CS 2.4, can be conveyed with a modest integrated amp (Creek in my evaluation) all of the way up to monster separate power amps (Class A, Class A/B, Class D). The choice is up to the owner. Happy Listening! |
Hey Guys! I'm fairly new to this thread however, I have been watching from the sidelines for about a year or so and have greatly appreciated all information the advice that has been posted. I own a pair of CS 3.6s which I absolutely adore. As with other Thiel owners, I am concerned about replacement parts or repair should they have issue in the future. I am wondering about part compatability specifically the tweeter. Does anyone out there know if the tweeter for the CS 2.2 is the same as the CS 3.6? |
Jon - you guys are expressing the fundamental quandary, sometimes stated as ’Mother Nature is a -----’. The laws of physics can only be bent so far before they dig in their heels. The model 3 (as in 03) was developed with very good bass as a principal design goal. Serious engineering gives that 10" driver quite a bit of oomph and, coupled with a well-tuned passive radiator, it produces pretty satisfying bass response in normal rooms at normal levels. Although Thiel is not associated with Great Bass, in fact Jim valued it highly. The Subwoofer Project grew out of how to produce Great Bass properly integrated with Thiel speakers and the room. The CS2 came more than 8 years later, at the request of dealers and audiophiles who wanted more nimble delicacy, and were willing to give up some bass to get it. An 8" woofer and smaller midrange have advantages in lower mass and break-up and pushing less air. Purity is considerably easier for the 2. The 3.6 Renaissance can’t change that, but we can address and improve some deficiencies. We can stiffen the few cabinet vibrations; and we can provide cleaner signal paths via higher quality passive components. They will be cleaner and more transparent. But when the dust settles and the same level of upgrade has been applied to both the 2 and the 3 series, the 2s will still win the purity contest and the 3s will deliver more bass. The 6s and 7s use more drivers to cover the same audible range, and both deliver better bass than the 3s and potentially better delicacy than the 2s . . . at higher cost. |
rosami You speak as if you are helping resolve uncertainty with my dilemma. For the past couple of years, I have been considering purchasing 2.4s to compare to my 3.6s, and my concerns are the same as yours. I am totally seduced by the low end of my 3.6s and I do not want to face the challenge of purchasing and properly integrating 2 subwoofers. I’ll patiently wait for future upgrades for the 3.6s. Jon |
Rosami - thank you for your cogent synopsis. On the bright side, I do have a pair of 3.6s in the HotRod Garage. So that model is more real than hypothetical. Also, the subtle knowledge I am garnering from my experiments applies to all models. It is incumbent on me to ascertain that my upgrades and recommendations are optimized in all ways, including cost efficacy. It is all too easy to pour lots of money into the works to get less than optimum price-performance. This project has many aspects and elements. I am making headway, but nowhere near wake speed. |
Hi Guys - I’m excited to report that I’ve become a card-carrying member of the CS2.4-owners’ club. Picked up a nice pair a few weeks ago (2006 production in Cherry finish) and have been doing some serious listening and comparing them to my 21-year-old CS3.6s. I’d previously reported that my 3.6s need work, but they’re still listenable and I think I’m able to "listen-through" the problems since I’m so familiar with them. This is the first time I’ve had two sets of speakers at the same time and I’m liking it. After listening to both models, I’ve come to some conclusions. I know this isn’t news to those who’ve owned and already compared both models, and I know a lot has already been said in this forum about these comparisons, but I’ thought I’d add a little of my own perspective after my admittedly short time spent comparing both models. Bottom line for me: Both models share obvious Thiel strengths but each excels in a different way, so deciding on which to keep will be tough. To my ears, the 2.4s provide better definition and superior imaging. They’re tighter in the bottom end and I hear small details with the 2.4s that are difficult to hear on the 3.6s. If I switch to the 3.6s after listening to the same song on the 2.4s, I can then hear the details that the 2.4s more easily reveal, but those details pop out on the newer model and the placement of individual instruments and voices is more pinpoint on the 2.4s. On probably 90 percent of music, the 2.4s are satisfying and a real pleasure listening to. But there’s a big caveat: the lack of that bottom 1/2 octave on the 2.4s may be a deal breaker for me. Listening to vocals, jazz, Blues on the 2.4s is just sooo good, but...listening to John Rutter’s Requiem (Reference Recordings) on the 2.4s is just disappointing. Switching back to the 3.6s, and getting that last 1/2 octave of bass, the feeling of those low organ pipes and sense of space that the lower half-octave brings is just so superior on the 3.6s. The larger speakers have a sense of ease that the 2.4s just do not provide on that type of music. So - since I don’t want to do subs, I’m torn between two speakers. I was somewhat disappointed to learn that Tom T. is working on crossover updates on other models prior to starting work on the 3.6s; I think crossover updates on the 3.6s have the potential to increase the resolution and be really significant on this older model, but it seems like it will be quite some time before the updated crossovers are available. I’m thinking of updating the caps on my 2.4s (per Rob G.) to get them sounding their best (short of rebuilding the whole crossovers) --and then enjoy those until the update for the 3.6s is available. So I think I have a plan to go forward - but am still anxiously awaiting that 3.6 crossover update! Best ... |
This information crossed my radar earlier today. ARC will be offering a SE upgrade for their CD6 and CD9 cd players starting now. A CD6SE offered at $10K and CD9SE at $15K respectively. For that kind of price increase it would have been good of Audio Research to include SACD playback. The CD9 has been my long-standing reference cd spinner during auditions. A very fine player with a killer DAC for computer -based Audio applications. Happy Listening! |
Andy - Unaskedfor advice, given in good faith: I would find it nearly impossible and at least thoroughly frustrating to design a first-order, phase coherent loudspeaker. It took us decades to develop and improve drivers to eventually cover 7 octaves with good enough behavior so that the long tails on the crosspoints would blend properly without over-excursing, resonating, burning out and otherwise misbehaving. The early custom drivers were developed with Vifa, who is no longer in business. Then we developed and made in-house, which are likewise unavailable. Since first-order xo is generally considered unfeasible, I don't know that suitable drivers are out there to be bought. I suggest you consider other options. A sweet alternative is the second-order crossover which manages phase integrity within a broader window, but to my ear does the job quite musically. Lots of high-end companies, as the lovely Thiel 02, take that rout. Please keep us posted on your progress, whatever you do. |
