Beetle - I took your advice and ordered Cardas internal wire, same as yours. Not yet had the opportunity to compare. Thanks for the nudge.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
14,030 responses Add your response
In my wire investigations I have learned that 6-9s wire is nearly extinct and even 5-9s is practically unaffordable. As the world changes toward miniaturization, highly complex component circuitry and wireless data and signal transmission, wire is less critical. It seems that some of the best sources (both audio and aerospace) are using 4-9s with careful casting, drawing, gauging and coating technologies. To your question, Thiel maintained a steadfast commitment to using the best wire availableHi TomI probably already shared this in a PM, but I found the Cardas hookup wire and binding posts to make a really nice improvement in SQ. In fact, I would rank the improvement as tied with the Mills resistors for second biggest improvement after replacing all caps and coils. I hope you are able to audition Cardas as you work on the R upgrades. That said, my experience aligns with with Prof in that $$$ AC cabling does not yield a corresponding improvement in SQ. As always, YMMV. |
thosb - vertical lobing is a central draw-back from first order crossovers. Your ear must be at the right height to receive proper integration. The closer to the speaker, the more critical is the correct spot. Target design was 35" at greater than 8'. (I heard that 35" migrated to 36".) My studio doesn't have a couch or living room seating and the lowest setting for my adjustable chairs gives 42". My solution uses a drywall square - a big aluminum T. I clamp it to an inside speaker face with the long arm centerline at 36" off the floor and tilt the speaker until I am sighting straight down the square's long arm. Vertical tilt is much more important than toe-in due to the vertical arrangement of multiple sound sources. Coaxes are more forgiving than individual drivers, but still interact with the woofer. FYI: part of the mechanical upgrade is a threaded front spike for easy tilt adjustment. |
Right back at ya jafant! Did y'all see the thread re the interest in resurrecting Dunlavy? Curious if anyone can compare the Dunlavy sound to Thiel? Geoff Poor was the first guy who explained the importance of time/phase coherence to me, he was also involved in Dunlavy I think, I ended up with used Thiels rather than the new Maggies he had me listen to, but hey the concept stuck. And I bought a BAT amp. Also, what about Coincident speakers relative to Thiels? What piqued my interest here was system posted by cal3713 (who also had some words of encouragement for me to try to upgrade my XOs after reading the erudite discussions on this thread - y'all have fans out there!), he went from 2.4s to Coincidents. Just wondering what other time/phase coherent speakers sound like. |
prof a few Summers ago I test drove a CJ MF5600 amp with LS 16 pre-amp. At that time I was holding out for a Premier 350SA. Cabling was low tier Audioquest and not too bad all things considered. I auditioned Audience cables and power cords from 10 years ago that occupied a Reference CJ set up (Premier 350SA / ACT2 Series 2). A very fine combination to my ears. I will report that on the upper tier CJ gear, stock power cords, are surprisingly excellent for those not into aftermarket products. I have always been curious about the CJ Evolution 2000 amp. It looks like a DIY experiment project. Happy Listening! |
I am an outlier here, but i have had great success with sound using MG Audio speaker cables between the PS BHK amp and the 3.7's. My friend Bob who has a system virtually identical to mine is much more dedicated to auditioning multiple speaker cables and interconnects. He uses some version of the Nordost speaker cable, and Cardas for the main interconnects. |
As usual I am impressed at the level of discourse on this thread, entertaining, educational, and consistently civil despite differences in opinions experiences and ears - bravo! Probably a pedestrian observation, but a new chair made me realize how important ear level relative to coax driver is. Long story short - new chair, whitewashed sound, bummer by chair is here to stay, took me a couple days but realized the added elevation made a HUGE difference. Tilted the 2.3s up by a full 0.5” to compensate and wow, back to the good place. Interesting to realize that the Stereophile measurements agree with my ears. Happily my listening skills appear to be improving! Full details - new chair puts ears 4” higher, from 32” to 36”, and the coaxs are at 32”. Ears are 8-9’ from speakers. |
George - I'm out the door till Friday, so just a quick response. Thank you. I suspect a lot of audiophiles envy you . . . listening to music for god's sake! I see our job as equipment providers as serving just that desire, to hear the whole envelope. The devil is in the details and turns out to be a big challenge. I'll eventually muddle through. Thanks again. Tom |
Hi Tom, I've grown up listening to classical music, beginning with RCA Victor Red Seals played on a wind-up Victrola. Having been in the Air Force and later traveling for my company, I've been fortunate to attend many concerts and operas in the US and in Europe over a 64 year period. I'm a classical music and opera nut. What do I listen for? I listen to the totality of the performance, not trying to pick apart the individual elements. I want to hear what the composer is trying to tell me. However, if clearly discernible elements pop up, here's what I can evaluate: I Do Not Listen to hear if the second violin passes gas! Conductor's pace and interpretation. Orchestra instrument balance: Performer's timing Performer's quality Orchestra-Soloist-Chorus balance. Chorus articulation. Venue quality Recording quality Dynamic range For me, my system and classical CD collection permit listening to the music, in toto, and not just listening to pick out the faults. Bryston BCD-3 spinner > BP17cubed preamp > 4B cubed amp > Thiel 2.7 speakers with SS2.2 sub and PX05 crossover. For me, the preamp and speakers make it real. Blue Jeans Cables for interconnects and speakers. Standard Bryston power cords. Stax Lambda Pro and Sennheiser HD 600 Headphones for when the neighbors complain! Listening room: 16 x 24 x 12, with one 24" side partially open to the dining room. Carpeted with upholstered furniture. George |
jafant - Thanks for starting a long and interesting thread. I'm driving my CS6's with a Krell KSA 300S amp and Krell KRC - 2 preamp. The amp is a perfect match for my Thiels because of their low sensitivity and difficult impedance curve. My other components include a PS Audio PerfectWave DAC and transport, a Marantz SA 8005 player for SACDs, A Krell CD 250/2 for HDCDs and I play vinyl with my vintage Denon DP 47F, Hana SL cartridge, and Krell phono preamp. I just bought a vintage Denon 3800 Blu Ray player so I can play DVD-Audio disks (I'm kind of a format junkie). Good credible information in this thread about cables. I run a mishmash of cables including Audioquest, Emotiva, and Blue Jeans interconnects and Tara Space and Time speaker wires. I've just never been able to hear much difference in cables. One of these days I'm going to spring for a fancy power cord (probably Shunyata) to see if I can tell the difference but it's not a priority. One thing that has actually made a very audible difference is the addition of a BSG Technologies qol processor. This thing improves the imaging, particularly the soundstage depth, without causing other audible problems. It's one of the best investments I've made and it works great with the Thiels, which already image fantastically. tomthiel - Thanks for the vacuum cleaner tip; I'll try it. Rob suggested using painter's tape but I couldn't get it to pull out the dent at all. thielrules - This pair of CS6's came from Cumming and they weren't advertised. I bought them from a guy I met at the 2017 AXPONA and we have since become good friends. He upgraded to a pair of Legacy's and when he mentioned that he would sell me his Thiels for a good price I enthusiastically took him up on it. I had to drive to Rochester, MN for another reason which meant that I was only two days away from Cumming. If you ever need to know this, it turns out you can fit two Thiel CS6 speakers in the back seat of a Dodge Charger. No, it wasn't easy. |
Prof - your opinion is quite useful to me. I'm casting a wider net than my personal, usually quite old, experience. I presently have bought a long run of unterminated ProCo cable 12 x 4 which resembles your links. Bluejeans' welder sounds wonderful. Terminations are serious business. I have not tried AC cables; although my queue has some shielded hospital cables to compare with "normals". I can imagine EMF interference issues. I have an EMF meter and was amazed by the levels of EMF around my gear. I installed 2 new outlets and simplified routing which significantly reduced those levels. I think I heard a more relaxed musical presentation, but I had no assistant and no way to A/B, so the result is merely a move in what seems to be a good direction. Thank you. Tom |
Hi Tom I’ve been able to use a fairly wide variety of cables in my system off and on (Nordost, Audioquest, others...often loaned or given by audiophile friends/acquaintances). But that’s not because I’m craving high end cables, just because if I need one I sometimes don’t have to buy them. (I’ve often given them back if I went on to buy my own). You won’t find me too helpful as I am not convinced about the case for expensive/audiophile cables. (Especially AC cables. Doing some blind testing of AC cables cured me of any desire for those long ago). Currently I’m using a mishmash of old Kimber PBJ interconnects that I bought long ago, I think there is an audioquest set in there, and some nordost for one connection (will probably replace that). I may replace all those with interconnects from bluejeans cable at some point. Probably no need, but some of the cables are pretty old and the bluejeans cable specs may suit my CJ preamp a bit better. My speaker cables are currently Belden 5T00UP 10awg, from bluejeans cable: https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm I had to do a 40 foot run or so for the speaker cables and went biggest awg just to ensure no audible transmission loss. I’ve heard speakers I own on this set up, and at my friend’s place who has borrowed or purchased speakers from me. He sometimes has up to 50 or 60 thousand dollars of cabling (Nordost, Crystal cable, others) for his system and the speakers sounded at least as good at my place. FWIW. Probably not useful to you, but there you go. Cheers! |
Prof - it would be helpful to me to know what interconnect and speaker cable you are using in your system, as well as the other components as well as your comments about strengths and weaknesses. I am calibrating my experience and understandings from a perspective of long absence from the arena. Your perspective, especially on cable, would inform my thinking. |
Tom- I’ve been using Strait Wire Serenade speaker cables in my system since before I had Thiels. I actually first used them with a pair of Meadowlark Kestrels. When I got my 3.5s I noticed how much larger and more dynamic they were over the smaller Meadowlarks but still retained a certain familiarity and naturalness to my ears. I attribute this in part to both manufacturers design philosophy of time & phase alignment. Later when I acquired my 3.7s and to this day I continue to listen through my SW Serenade speaker cables. I like the fact that these cables have been with me so long and have always allowed me to hear the sometimes subtle differences when making changes to my system. It makes perfect sense now that I know the history between Thiel and SW, that these speaker cables have been such a synergistic match with my Thiels. Cheers! |
tomthiel, I don't have direct experience with Straight Wire's current products, but I did have a very helpful conversation with Jerry Willsie at Straight Wire about using Thiel speakers with my PS Audio amps and pre-amp. Jerry seemed very knowledgeable about which wire to use with Thiels, and he didn't try to push more expensive wire on me if I was happy with my current Straight Wire speaker cables. I agree with you that Straight Wire doesn't seem to get a lot of attention as a high-end wire company these days, but there's so much cable competition that it may be hard to stand out. The sales rep I worked with at the Cable Company did tell me that they sell a lot of Straight Wire products, so Straight Wire may still be considered a solid value in the crazy world of wire. |
JA - In my wire investigations I have learned that 6-9s wire is nearly extinct and even 5-9s is practically unaffordable. As the world changes toward miniaturization, highly complex component circuitry and wireless data and signal transmission, wire is less critical. It seems that some of the best sources (both audio and aerospace) are using 4-9s with careful casting, drawing, gauging and coating technologies. To your question, Thiel maintained a steadfast commitment to using the best wire available. I know that solid 18 twist isn't very sexy, and I am now comparing alternatives with coaching from wire guys, but that 4-9s x 3 twist in teflon certainly performs well. Over the years it was routinely tested / listened to against many alternatives. Remember that, unlike external speaker cable, Jim had the advantage of developing each driver's crossover as an entire system from input to driver, to include all wire effects as part of the global circuit equation. In other words, the inductance, capacitance and resistance and their subset effects were accounted for by measuring the global system. Jim was trying to make that point in the interview, but Gene wouldn't allow it to really go there as a stepping stone to further investigations. It's quite easy to pot-shot any designer's values and approach. But I can tell you that Jim milked very high performance out of complex circuits that could only be afforded by scrutinizing the cost / performance ratio of every single element. |
Sdl-4 - FWIW, Straightwire remained an active / interactive supply partner with Thiel from early 80s when they began until 2013 when Thiel was sold. SW knows quite a bit about wire, although they sometimes seem slighted in the market for lack of eber-expensive products. I would be most interested in learning how you guys consider SW and their products. I also hope for any feedback about Morrow, which is where I landed with little to no meaningful comparisons. Any thoughts? |
jafant, In response to your question about my StraightWire cables, I was using Encore speaker cables and Rhapsody II (RCA) interconnects in my system until just a few months ago. After switching to a PS Audio Stellar stack in early 2019, I decided to try several moderate-priced balanced interconnects in my system. Using XLR's from the Cable Company lending library, I decided that the Cardas Parsec XLR sounded better in my system than the Rhapsody II RCA I already owned (2nd place), Shunyata Venom XLR (third place), or Synergistic Research XLR (fourth place). I'm now using the Cardas XLR between my Gain Cell DAC/Pre and my M700 monoblocks. When I replaced the interconnect, I did not replace my StraightWire Encore speaker cable. Based on my room configuration, I have speaker cables that are 24 feet long and run under my living room floor. This arrangement makes replacement of the speaker wires quite expensive for reasonably good wire, so I'm keeping my StraightWire cables for now. Fortunately, the folks at StraightWire tell me that the Encore cable remains a very solid choice for my Thiel 2.2s and that even spending quite a bit more money would only get me small improvements in sound quality for my investment. |
The inability of certain personalities to cope with ambiguity makes the people watching aspect of audio a lot of fun. You can see with the audioholics guys that they are very emotionally invested in there being nothing audible that can't be measured. I think it would be a significant blow to their self-image if it turned out they were wrong. I get that they're annoyed by BS marketing and absurd prices but that's definitely not the whole story. Maybe it's fear that somebody might know or understand more than them in some area? Regardless, with active DSP speakers comes the possibility that slopes can be variable. I wish I could run my Thiels first order for acoustic music that doesn't have excessive bass and I don't listen to very loudly. On the other hand, when I want to rock it'd be great if I could just switch them to 4th order for increased headroom. I wonder if the new Meadlowlark has that ability. I saw that they're using mini DSP in their products. |
8th-note - gotta go soon, so you get the short answer. Do some practicing with a vacuum cleaner and then pull your dent out with vacuum. If you don't hear voice coil rubbing, you're not doing damage. When it's as smooth as you can get it, put the grilles on. The speaker was meant to have them, plus you won't see the dust-cap. |
Although I and Kathy were integrally part of the early decisions, directions and perspectives, it was Jim who took the bit in his teeth to create the electro-acoustic solutions. And he got better and better. My chief contribution was building a company and creating a manufacturing platform and capacity to support and manufacture Jim's designs. A manufacturing company defines itself by what it can actually accomplish as well as the designs it sets out to make. Our plant could make things with high precision and repeatability at low cost, which allowed fairly sophisticated designs to be translated into real world products at affordable prices. Additionally, I developed a very capable "project shop" for in-house prototyping, including hydro-spinning cones, machining motor assemblies, making production tooling and producing finished products, troubleshot and production-ready. In my travels, I've never seen anything like it, especially at such a small scale. Thiel remained under $10million / year with 50 or fewer employees. That's tiny for our high level of vertical integration. |
Hi everyone. I have been following this thread with great interest - thanks to Tom and the other very knowledgeable posters! I just brought home a beautiful pair of CS6's that I bought from a friend in Georgia (I live in Washington State) which tells you something about how much I wanted these speakers. They sound amazingly good and are in near mint condition except for one problem. One of the woofers has a dented dust cap. About 1/3 of the dust cap is dented in. I contacted Rob Gillium (what a nice guy) and he can rebuild the woofer for $600. Again, the speakers sound great but my OCD makes me want to fix the woofer because it just bugs me. Will this damage make any difference to the sound? Could it cause the woofer to fail prematurely? Is there a good reason to spring for the 600 bucks and bring these speakers back to near perfect condition? Any advice will be appreciated. Also, if there are any CS6 owners on the thread I would love to hear any advice you can share about setup or use of these speakers. |
tomthiel, All I can say is that Thiel figured out a way to make enough progress before you left the company that I'm still using Thiel 2.2s as my main speakers more than 25 years after I bought them. (And I'm also still using the original StraightWire speaker cables that I bought way back then, too.) |
Sdl4 - very well stated. There exists an arrogance of intelligence which imagines it knows everything when it can explain anything. Thiel's founding attitude and guiding principle was that we only understood a small corner of what we were dealing with and that we better remain open-minded and humble if we were to make progress - making progress on all fronts was at the core of our work ethic. |
JA - On to your question. Our first speaker wire, including the 1978 CES where we introduced the 03, was home-brew made from #0 stranded welding cable configured for lowest conventional problems. It measured well and looked impressive. Jim was also a skeptic by nature as well as we all being over-booked for time to explore elements like wire, which was a brand new arena at the time. It was probably spring CES 1978 that Ray Kimber showed us his prototype $1K / pair foot braided 6-9s silicone sealed, jacketless cable. We made a double-blind comparison, including measurements, between our welding cable and Ray's new wire. The conventional measurements were inconclusive, but certainly our welding cable didn't exhibit big problems. The listening test was not subtle. Ray's wire blew everyone away. Guests included the editor of Audio Magazine (professional journal). Details aside, we developed an ongoing relationship with Kimber. We also developed a relationship with Bill Low who later founded AudioQuest, and his products were always in our evaluation mix. Noel Lee of Monster Cable was in our mix, and Monster branded and sold Jim's patented user-selectable load low-output moving coil headamp. The Monster Cable products never made the cut for us,somehow including distortion mechanisms that masked the music. An important ally became Dave Salz and Steven Hill of StraightWire (together at the time) who became the distributor for the ultra ITT wire that we used. StraightWire developed teflon jackets, polished drawing dies and other leading edge technologies. It is possible that we got best pricing from SW because those guys claim that hearing the Thiel 03a is what made them decide to pursue high-end audio as their career. There were other wires, winners and losers in our context, but I don't clearly remember the brands. I do remember that when Bruce Brisson introduced his Music Interface Technology cables and tried to interest us, their multiple samples contained defects, either of design or execution. We didn't go there. I also remember in the mid 80s, my opinion diverged from Jim's about "best wire". I included the teenage girl contingent in my comparisons and Jim developed an attitude of himself being the arbiter of choice. (Jim had begun smoking before he was a teenager and I believe he didn't hear high frequency anomalies as problems. Just sayin'.) I left in the mid 90s and don't know much about external wire thereafter. I do know that StraightWire's best 18 gauge 3/inch twisted pair in teflon remained the internal hookup wire. The coil wire was by then sourced by Rudy at Acoustacoil who was winding all our coils by then. Ultra-best wire became unavailable after the space projects closed. But Thiel continued to use best-of-available. I remember reading some reviews where Thiel used Goertz Flat Wire to develop the 3.7 (or perhaps an earlier speaker). I never remember reading of Cardas or Transparent wire although Jim had relationships with Karen @ Transparent via Kathy in industry politics as well as with George Cardas. I heard that Jim experimented with silver wire, plated and solid, but its sonic signature was so different as to necessitate a choice based on likely user selection. Thiel's price-class was always modest and silver wire is in a different league, he went with copper. That's about all I remember. We routinely evaluated new wire configurations and brands and most of them were judged as overpriced and compromised. We were dumbfounded by the margins we saw in the wire sector of the industry. Dick Olsher and Jim had a mutually respectful association. We thought our stable of commentators and reviewers to be first-rate in their approach and understandings. |
tomthiel, I love Jim's quote that "there are sonic effects that I don't know how to measure." This statement seems so simple and so obvious that it is amazing that so many audio measurement "experts" appear to believe that science has already achieved that perfect state of being able to measure all parameters that influence what humans hear. Real scientists, however, will continue to study the many factors that affect auditory perception and how best to measure those factors and how they relate to how people listen to music. Until science gets a lot closer to "measurement perfection," we will have to depend on our ears and brains to close the gap. |
sdl4 Good to see you again. Thank You for confirming that the link worked and was read. I take great pride in being the biggest proponent for Cabling among the Panel. The largest misconception is that one needs to spend big dollars on aftermarket cables / power cords. Not True! System synergy is far more important in comparison. Trust you ears above any review or white paper. Happy Listening! |
JA - thanks for the link. I'll cover some ground, perhaps repeating some stuff from previous posts. Wire was an essential element in Thiel's adoption of first order coherence. We sweated blood for a year and a half in 1977 - 1979 to decide to adopt first order slopes over the second order alternative. Second order was so much more forgiving, partially because the steeper driver rolloffs made their work more benign, but also because we came to learn that coherence required the ear-brain to assess the musical information as REAL and therefore deserving far higher scrutiny than reproduced music. With that backdrop, we were stuck. The coherent speaker showed far more unexplainable problems than the less coherent second order speaker. Beyond the statement that everything mattered, I'll point out two elements that mattered most:1: wire and 2: driver basket material. First #2: all our baskets, like most everyone else, were stamped steel. No matter how much epoxy and damping we applied, there was an audible sonic problem. Jim wondered out loud whether there might be eddy currents in the basket. We found some aluminum baskets and the problem vanished, even when the aluminum basket was demonstratably more resonant than the reinforced steel. Short version. Next #1: Wire was not in the vocabulary yet. We were using first-rate Electrolytic Tough Pitch, like everyone else, both for hookup and coils.I previously recounted a visit from our aerospace physicist cousin Ted Lyon who listened to our demonstration of the problem we couldn't solve in the coherent system and how it vanished in the non-coherent system. Ted recounted a rather elaborate program whereby GE found wire crystal margins to be causing subtle distortions which acted a lot like what we were describing and hearing. He got us a sample of ITT's 6-9s ultra wire, fixed the problem and the rest is history. Lots of interesting history, but too much to recount here. So our modus operandi going ahead was that everything mattered and our job was to determin how to proceed rather than trying to prove anything to any logician. Manufacturers are not research institutes, we willingly collaborated with anyone who wanted to understand anything, but drew a line before getting involved with anyone who tried to prove the negative. Deep in our corporate culture was that the ear-brain was far better at detecting naturalness than any scientific instrument or theory. |
Sdl4 - this discussion fits a template deeply ingrained in the mainstream engineering community: if you can't prove it, it's not real. The article is embarrassing, but beyond that it doesn't explore much of what Jim knew because Gene wouldn't admit such empirical as valid. I will add that years later, after Jim's death when Kathy had sold Thiel Audio, I saw first-hand that same template applied to Jim's lifetime work. "None of it matters because it can't be proven and is therefore definitionally untrue." I'll point out that one of Gene's arguments about aerospace engineering knowing more than audio hacks is especially rich. We were first exposed to the subtleties of wire by cousin Ted via GE Aerospace avionics having identified just such subtle wire effects as causing problems in Jupiter Space Probe signal propagation resolution. They don't recognize that their thought process and assignment of burden of proof categorically negates much of the progress made in subtle technical arts. |