Thiel Owners

It seems that I found here in Italy a specialist in repairing even such sophisticated drivers like the customized Vifa for Thiel. Actually he is a highly rated amplifiers and loudspeakers craftsman builder and his lab is provided of all needed professional euipment to do it right. As I already told here, I already bought a full set of drivers for my CS3.6's from Rob Gillum but the defective ones are still in my hands and I would be very happy to have the possibility to get them properly working again as new spares. Next week I'll give him two mids and two woofers to try the reparation., he told me to have some idea on what can be the cause of the defective sound (mine were not fully die but shown only a sort of break up transient at certain frequency). I will report here the result of this attempted ressurrection in case someone is on the need.

vair68robert
Nice catch!  No doubt that the CJ MF-2550/2550SE will become a modern classic. This is probably the last solid-state power amp we will see from CJ as well. Thank You for posting impressions on this model plus McCormack DNA.
Happy Listening!

I noticed 2 different sets of Thiel speakers available on USAudioMart ,
a pair of CS3.6s and 7.2s .

Also I would like to clarify my last post ,
I was trying to point out that a Reviewer was using a pair of
CS3.7 speakers as his reference , he had also owned a pair of 7.2s .
I looked up other reviews from this site and found SCS4Ts  and
CS3.7s were reviewed .
The reviewer of the 3.7s previously owned CS3.6s ,
this seems to be a Thiel freindly and knowledgable site .

As for my McCormack DNA-250 amp made by Conrad Johnson ,
I can not reccomend it in it's stock form but 
after upgrading componets trying to imitate the CJ MF-2550se 
I am amazed at the transformation and will say 
if you can afford the MF-2550SE go for it and it's not that heavy .
I can see why DNA owners rave about thier amps AFTER 
sending them in for upgrades and why CJ owners like their amps because of the custom Capacitors they use ( and won't sell me ) ,

tomthiel
It is imperative to post both negative and positive experiences when dealing with these repair operations/techs.  We would not want other Audiophiles to have the same misfortune(s). 

I am looking forward in reading more about the Adcom/Benchmark/Classe'
shoot-outs.
Happy Listening!

Jafant - The amps have been struggling for over a year and are indeed back home in fine fittle. The first tech made a mess of it, changing some cap values, mis-regulating and stressing some circuits. The second outfit came highly recommended as a warranty repair center for McIntosh among others. But their senior tech who could make sense of the mess was out for extended medical leave; and on return was buried in urgent backlog work. BUT, he went through both amps and got everything into synchronicity and they do sound good.

So, the DR-6 and 9s are like new, which is really quite good. My comparisons are the class A Benchmark AHB-2s and the Adcom GFA555II which I bought for entry level benchmarking. The Adcom really trails far behind in all audiophile ways, even though fairly well regarded in its time. The Classe and Benchmark are remarkably similar. I don't hear the "darkness" often attributed to the Classe. However I do hear a bit of gritty, dry hashiness in the Adcom (also repaired and tested as good.)
Now with 4 bridged amps / 8 channels available, I can make real time comparisons with 4 speakers under test - what joy. I'll get to some progress reports when the legal matters are finalized.

tomthiel
Thank You for the update. Good to read that your pair of DR-9s are back and ready for action!  I know you were doubting if they would return operational.  There are many fans of the Classe' brand here. Feel free to give a shout-out for the repair/service Expert.
Happy Listening!

Kenazfilan - about doubled up speakers for a bi-pole. Today I gave the configuration a whirl with 2 pairs of CS2.2s back to back. I am driving with a pair of Classe DR-9s and Benchmark AHB-2s both at 100 wpc/8, both bridged to mono. 4 amps into 4 speakers. The back pair is driven by a PS Stellar Pre with remote volume control to bring up the back channels to suit. At some point of about equal loudness back and front, the sound takes 3-D form and moves back between the speakers and wall. The effect is delightful and doesn't seem to harm image specificity. The bass especially becomes big and round and clean.

Since for the same volume level, each speaker is working half as hard, distortion is undoubtedly lower; and since the point source patterns are reinforcing each other front to back, a quasi hemispherical wave-front is being launched. For those who love omnidirectional launch, this is a wonderful way to get it.

For fun, I reversed polarity of the back speakers (a button on the PS remote) which produces a di-pole pattern like a planar speaker. Indeed I got the phasey boundary effect. Back in bi-pole, the speakers just sound bigger. I suspect my room might be easier than some for this use. My walls are soft with lots of diffusion and little in the way of standing waves because 2 walls are sonically fairly transparent into a much larger space. The coupled bass from 4 speakers allowed me to pull the speakers about 6' from the front wall to image like champs while maintaining plenty of bass.

Fun at the end of the day.

Not at all safe. Thiel tweeters are not ordinary in that Thiel demands response down below 200Hz. Please find out from Rob and let us know here for our records.

Looks like the correct tweeter is a SEAS 25TAF/G H400 (at least that's what it says on mine). I just had a look on Ebay and found some which seem to be the same ones or would match up with mine - like this one here - (although this offer looks slightly different from mine on the underside). Do y'all reckon that would be a safe bet?

@thielrules - popping a beer and sitting down to read your paper

Happy Friday! All

Jimi - excuse me, the 1.2 tweeter might be Seas. But either way, it is not a generic tweeter. Long ago and far away, details blur.

Alright, that's probably the best idea. I would probably just make it worse if I tried to do anything with it =D Thanks again for your input!

Jimi - work with Rob. A voice coil is connected to the dome and surround as a moving system. Moving systems are specific to their end-use with varying mass, compliance, impedance, wire gauge and geometry. Your CS1.2 tweeter was made by Vifa, and I don't know about its repair particulars, but Rob will.

Hey again, thanks for your responses to my post on Sunday! I also wrote Rob Gillum from Coherent Source Service, and he suggested I may have an "open circuit" on the voice coil - so I removed the fabric layer between magnet and dome structure and realized that the voice coil is broken at one point. Is there any kind of how-to guide you could recommend on replacing a voice coil? And can I use any old (or preferably new) 1" / 25.5mm voice coil? Thanks again for your help!

While upgrading componets in my McCormack DNA-250 amp ,
I discovered that Conrad Johnson dropped the McCormack from the name but continued to use design .
I've been using images of the MF-2550se for reference as to which componets to upgrade .
I found this artical that fits in with this Thiel speaker forum !

www.theaudiobeat.com › equipment › conrad_johnson_mf2550se

( excerpt from artical )

These are the sorts of details the MF-2550 SE served up best. The 300-hour Teflon Rubicon had at last been crossed.

Among the amplifiers I’ve heard in my system, the Conrad-Johnson MF-2550 SE stands out. Of those amps, its closest competitor in terms of price, specifications, and power is the Classé CA-2300. At $7000, this Canadian anvil delivers 600W into 4 ohms, and was quite capable of handling my Thiel CS3.7s -- and having spent many years with these speakers, I can tell you that, much like their predecessors, the CS7.2s, they will use every watt they can get. The MF-2550 SE produces "just" 400Wpc (confirmed by C-J’s Lew Johnson), but not all watts are created equal. The CA-2300 was a bit sluggish by comparison. The MF-2550 SE gripped the ’3.7s, handling every curve the music threw with agility and speed, and sounding significantly more transparent and musical (in all of the best ways) than the Classé.

Rob

@thielrules, Yes, as I said; I understand.

thielrules

Thank You for sharing your Summer 3.5 project. Strong work- this model is beloved by many members of the Panel here. How we wish OEM drivers and parts were available for these Vintage loudspeakers?

Happy Listening!

Unsound, the OEM drivers are no longer available, nor can the mid-range be rebuild. Tweeters of dynaudio are still available used. The bass equaliser of the 3.5 is prone to damage from static electricity, and Rob is out of parts to repair them. Fortunately all of this can be managed with dsp and the 3.5 have a new lease on life.

@thielrules,

What an impressive undertaking and write-up! I must confess that I lack the knowledge required to judge the success of many of your choices in making mods on the original 3.5 design. My negative experience with equalizers in the past makes me hesitant to depend on EQ to fix problems in replacement drivers or make decisions on a "house sound," but I have absolutely no experience with modern digital EQ so I am not in any position to offer an informed critique.

Above all, I will be very interested in what the speakers now sound like. Please let us know your listening impressions as you log some serious listening time with your "renewed" speakers. Thanks for sharing all this great information!

@thielrules, the differences are only personal, not a criticism of your choices. I understand your choices, but I would have liked to have used the OEM drivers and used a flat response.

Rules & Unsound - I, for one, would be very interested in looking in on your discussion. Rules, I commend your work highly. Nicely done, both the work and the report.

Jacksky -  nearly all CS5s have been converted to CS5i with upgraded lower midrange, woofers and subwoofer. Rob @ Coherent Source Service has conversion kits for your drivers. I suspect that your exaggerated / loose bass may be caused by the near 1 ohm infrasonic load and sub 2 ohm load through 50 hz. If you have two 7bs, you could split the woofers and run them with one channel and the upper 3 drivers on the other channel.

Unsound, thanks. I'm very aware of my cautious budget choices as this was more a proof of concept exploration. What would you have done differently? We can continue this discussion by email if preferred.

I concur that Brystons are a good match...in general.
I am running CS5 with Brystons 7b in parralel mode.  I tried running them with 250 watt ICE power class D amps, but there was absolutely no guts or life or depth to music.  My only issue when running 7B's is that bass is a bit exaggerated, especially at the sub harmonic level. I don't think this is a result of room or treatment due to having experience with several other speakers.
Perhaps this relates to what Tom has stated earlier:
A) CS5 would have been a good candidate for bi-wiring
B) CS5i have more articulated lower and lower mids.
Question: would it be a worthwhile endeavor to search out replacement drivers to convert these to CS5i upgrade?

@thielrules, Outstanding! Bravo! I'm not sure I would have made all the same choices, but I am truly impressed. I would love to hear them!

beetlemania

Agreed- the CS 2.4SE does not benefit from toe-in. The upgraded cross-over (XO) and Outrigger decoupling makes a refined, sublime, difference.

Happy Listening!

Good to see you here: corrected.

jimihandtrix

Welcome! Good to see yo here. Standby until one of our vintage experts from the Panel addresses your query.  I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.

Happy Listening!

jimi handtrix - likelihood is very high that your tweeter is "blown". You can test it by taking it out and applying 6 volts DC via a battery. When you touch Tweeter Plus (red) to Battery Plus you should hear a small click and feel the dome against your finger move outward. If nothing happens, the tweeter has failed and we here can help you get a new one.
The woofer should move a lot at high frequencies because it rolls off at only 6dB / octave above around 3K± (guessing).

ok, as promised here is my lengthy write-up of my summer project modifying my Thiel CS3.5https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A1Hs9g2tr27cGUfzSX8IcUy3dC-TpVrk/view?usp=sharing

Hey y’all, I just picked up a pair of CS1.2’s in Berlin, Germany today! The tweeter on one of the speakers doesn’t seem to be working at all - has anyone experienced this issue before? I suppose this may be more of a general speaker question, but I thought I’d try here nonetheless. I’m assuming that either a contact on the wiring has come undone, or maybe one of the components is fried (although I had a look inside and didn’t see anything "out of the ordinary", but then again I’m no expert!). I think the tweeter itself is still fine, as the other tweeter and both woofers are still in decent condition, could be wrong though. Also, when my other speakers are hooked up (with the same cables to the same channels), there aren't any issues. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

P.S.: I just remembered that when I applied a high-pass filter, there was still a fairly large amount of higher frequencies coming through the woofer. Does anyone know the specs on the woofer (i.e. frequency range)? This just made me think it could possibly be a crossover issue.

Thank you . 
If p35 has enough power I would just stick with it . I wouldn’t want to change unless other amps make a huge difference.

McCormack is also good and in your price range. However, the power of your amp is more then adequate for your music IMHO.

Thank you @oblgny 
appreciate the recommendations of belles amplifier . I will look into it.
i want to keep the price below 1000$.
Reading through the threads the most recommended are pass and krell which are more than what I am willing to pay for.
bryston seems to be ok if I can get a 4b for my price . 
Any thoughts on the parasound a21.

Just for the hell of it...

Another good artist to throw at your system is Ani DiFranco. Living In Clip is a good live recording showcasing some pretty dramatic dynamics. Plus I dig her guitar playing like a shovel. 

newtoncr...

I heartily suggest that you seek a Belles amplifier for your 2.4’s.  If you search on the shark you’ll find a couple 150A amplifiers for sale as well as a few of his preamps.  If the amps are in good shape, and if they’re anywhere near as good as my 250i Integrated, you’ll discover something remarkably focused on the types of music you enjoy.  Those amps hover around $650 - a “Thiel-like” bargain.  


Now, why am I so smitten with Belles?


While I don’t have the ability to conduct an A/B live comparison, 20/20 hindsight and impressions that have remained with me since experiencing them whisper Pass Labs - sans the price of entry. My Belles 250i Integrated  provides me with all the clean, articulate sonics that my Pass X150.5 amplifier did - at that time for me it was a match made in heaven. 


David Belles now makes Power Modules products - they have a website. David is in his eighties and stopped making high powered amplifiers because he couldn’t move them around like he used to.  He actually answers the phone, too. 


Over the years i have bought many pre-owned speakers, amps & preamps without the benefit of a live audition.  With Thiel being the sole exclusion, most of the other hardware’s manufacturers are still in business, producing new products. Most offered some degree of assistance on their “legacy”, discontinued models. Most of the time those of us who discovered Thiel did so on the pre-owner market - which is a fairly risky way to purchase something that can be subjected to abuse. I never heard a Thiel model before I wired ‘em into my setup. I’ve never been disappointed, either. 


Belles philosophy complements Thiel’s. Articulate, uncolored, accurate. Worth your while checking it out if you’re able.  

I am looking for advice for a power amp for my cs 2.4. I recently purchased a pair of cs 2.4. I am running them through arcam amplification . The fmj c 31 preamp and p35 power amp. The power amp is rated at 100 w per channel at 8 and 150 w per channel at 4 ohms. Cables are kimber 12tc. 
I can spend 1000$ on a power amp , used. I would appreciate any suggestions or is p35 good enough to drive the 2.4.
i listen to vocal music and jazz.

thank you in advance .

the CS 2.4 . . . benefits from a small degree of toe-in, IMO

I think mine sound best with no toe-in. I have ‘em 7’-10” apart, so maybe closer than your configuration?

Btw, what amp are you using?

I owned 2.3s in the past and help deliver a bunch of 2.4s (and 2.3s) when a friend worked at a local audio store many moons ago.  Vocals on the 2.4s are a bit more relaxed and open.  The 2.4s also felt to me a bit more dynamic in the bass region.

Oblgny - thanks for the comparisons.  The 2.3s and 2.4s look so similar on paper i have always wondered what the sonic difference is.   And thanks all for the music you enjoy using to evaluate SQ.  

Two of my favorite albums for testing gear are Chucho Valdes - Solo Piano for rapid transients and Keith Jarrett Trio - The Cure ... especially the title track where I pay particular attention to the sound of Jack DeJohnette's cymbal strikes and high hat work.

rwmeditz
An excellent list of musical passages for testing gear!
Happy Listening!

Interesting that I never used Clapton or any of the other guitar gods to audition Thiels, even though most of the rock I listen to is from them. For my 2.2s in the shop it was Keith Jarret's solo piano improvisations 'Kőln Concert' for emotion, Grateful Dead's 'Blues for Allah' opening 2 songs for timbre and layering and Karajan's Mahler Symphony #5 for clarity, soundstage, positioning and dynamics. For the 3.5s recently the list was longer, but thankfully the seller also enjoyed my selections. The last was replaced by Bernstein's Mahler #9, and added were Solti's Wagner 'Die Walkűre' disc 3 for bass rumble and vocal clarity, highs and lows and finally John Coltrane 'A Love Supreme' for palpability and shape for lack of a better description. Needless to say the 3.5s nailed them all, aural nirvana and an emotional connection with each. Obviously I left with the 3.5s!

not a drop of rain.  we are marked safe as they say.   thank you.

ronkent
How did you fare from the hurricane? Hope you and other NC Thiel owners are safe.

Happy Listening!