Wow the level of expertise of Thiel DIY'ers is amazing .
Thank you @stspur for your impression of Mills resistors with them being your first upgrade .
They are next on my list .
A correction about the wire used in the Tennessee CS2.7 ,
after replacing the wiring with Cardas 15.5 AWG
I looked at the original wire using a 30X magnifying glass
and can now see the missing dot making a 16 and not an 18 AWG .
A lot of work replacing all the wiring ,
BUT I'd have to say it's worth it given the improvement I'm hearing .
Jimi Hendrix "And the Gods Made Love"
never swirled with such detail before .
One more thing ,
I replaced the fiberglass batting with wool quilting batting .
Rob
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Unsound, the chamber volume for the coax requires almost a doubling of the space that the 3.5 offers for the mid-range driver (using space measurement of the cavity of the 2.7 compared to 3.5). Most practical way would be an expansion of the chamber on the back of the speaker, using a cardboard tube and wood. The front bevel opening would need to be enlarged with an extra inch or so, for which there is enough room. The new coax drivers are about $550 each, not sure about shipping costs. Depending whether you have the tools and skills to do the woodwork, you can estimate your "investment". |
slhijb
My pleasure to assist you. Thank You for citing your musical tastes and Rob Gillum's help from CSS. There are quite a few DIY guys here that are making real progress on finding modern cross-over/driver solutions for their beloved vintage loudspeakers. Take your time persuing this thread, you will find a plethora of information on Thiel Audio 3.5 model.
Happy Listening!
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@thielrules, Thank you! What kind of expense would one meet to retrofit the co-axial's to the 3.5's? |
Talked several times to Rob about the 10F as the mid-range replacement but never got excited about this option in spite of Rob's claim that it was the best replacement. The difference is size should affect the time coherence even if it may not be audible.
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Unsound, I seriously explored that option with Rob and measured the cut out and increase in volume that would be needed. Concluded that it is doable and the coax driver are available and if you need to replace both the mid-range and tweeter, financially equivalent. I postponed that option and experimented first with a good wavecor mid-range driver and using active dsp tried out various eq and xo designs. As I can compare it to the original 3.5 and 3.7, I am pretty satisfied with my results.
Tom, I have a pair of sealed subs and if this summer will be slow, I may explore your suggestion more.
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At the risk of appearing redundant; I still wonder if the 3.5's baffle could be modified to accept the co-axial midrange/tweeter from the 3.7's. Then we would have a genuine Thiel replacement and the advantages of a lobing fix. Sort of a time reversal of what Jim did when he took drivers from previous higher end models to use on newer lower cost models. |
Go guy! Just for grins, my 3.5 dream that never was is to mate the hotrodded unequalized 3.5 to a subwoofer crossed at polarity correct 2nd order low pass to the natural roll-out of the sealed 3.5 bass, which is perfectly aligned in its sealed cabinet. If you have the skills and inclination to mess around with that project, I'm available to work with you.
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Jafant, TomThiel & Rob @ Coherentsourceserice.com, thanks so much for the responses. Some Thiel fans for years have been looking for a replacement mid-range for the Thiel CS3.5. Several contenders apparently have come & gone. The 10F/8424G & G00 are highly respected drivers; however, there isn’t enough information floating around the web on the original 13M/8521 to make an informed comparison. Madisound replied to me that people have been happy with the 10F/8424G swap which is encouraging, but no specifics. Rob at rob@coherentsourceservice.com (thanks again Rob) just responded to my email that in his testing the 10F/8424G00 is the replacement driver of choice. The 10F-8424G00 is mounted onto a special plate that holds the driver and the trim ring for the CS3.5 mid. He offers the driver, plate & trim at at Coherent Source Service for $250 each, plus shipping. Tom Thiel’s awesome response above nailed some of my questions on the 10F/8424G as a replacement. The two drivers appear a very close match, but Thiel’s design of the CS3.5 places serious demands on the mid-range, so several factors come into play when selecting a replacement… not the least of which is how it behaves with a soft 6dB slope, low 400Hz crossover, high power handling demands and a bass equalizer infusing a formidable power shift. However; for me, most important is how it sounds. If it sounds as good or better than the original, there may be subtle work arounds to meet my needs. I’m still hoping to find Thiel owner who has heard either the 10F/8424G or G00 in the 3.5. If the 10F/8424G or G00 work as replacements, I’ll try swapping out the original Dynaudio D28AFs with the Dynaudio ESOTAR T330D tweeters. I have a pair from another project that never materialized. I contacted Dynaudio concerning the possible swap and they felt it would be a good match. There wouldn’t happen to be anyone with experience replacing the 3.5 tweeter with the T330D? This isn’t a complex a swap as the mid-range.
Jafant, thanks for asking about my musical tastes? I guess they’re all over the place. I’m a product of the 60s fused with parental influence from the 30s to 40s. Beatles, Stones, Buffalo Springfield, Blue Cheer, Tull, Neil Young, Mayall to Nat King Cole, Louis Armstrong & Ella Fitzgerald. As time progressed got into country rock, blues, jazz, bluegrass and Americana. As I get older my tastes mellow, I now enjoy quieter more emotional music, but with exceptional detail & depth. Clean, clear intimate audio, able to hear a vocalist draw a breath between lyrics, fingers sliding down a 12 string guitar, a tad of darkness. This has led me to SET amps & high sensitivity speakers. What it my system? As a hobby, I diddle with audio equipment. Finishing building a pair of OB Lowther PM6As (silver voice coils), Tone Tubbys and built in subwoofers (almost done). Also currently building some modified 4Pi’s, again with built in subwoofers (mid way through). Lastly, finishing a DIY turntable & Transcendent Masterpiece 300B preamp (almost done). My main system - Merlin VSMs, Joule VZN-80 & Joule Preamp (on pause due to lightning damage). Active system - Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp, Welborne Lab 2A3 Moondog monoblocks and diy Tang Band W8-1772 OB speakers (with built in subs). I’ll eventually mate the modified Thiel CS3.5s and powered subs with my Marantz Estotec SM6 amplifier. As you might guess, my wife is a patient woman. |
slhibj - Limited knowledge and experience here. I hope that directly experienced users will comment. Although the FR and other performance and technologies of the SS 10F are appropriate, I worry about the 30 Watt power rating compared with 50 or more (memory fails) for the original. Rob and I have chosen the 10F for a CS2 and 2.2 replacement. But the 3.5s XO is an octave lower (400 vs 800Hz) plus the Equalizer boosts the low end of the midrange driver considerably. Consider that the stock MR were somewhat fragile if driven hard - we replaced hundreds with burned voice coils. So, I'm leery of the the 10F for the 3.5. But my opinion is just that, an opinion without definitive experience.
We (here) need to find a 3.5 replacement. I suggest you contact Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service to learn his recent experience regarding your problem. And I also look forward to hearing from others here.
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slhijb
Welcome! Good to see you here. Stay tuned until one of the Panel's 3.5 experts chimes in to address your query.I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening!
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Looking to replace the damaged mid-range in my Thiel CS3.5 speakers.
PBN Audio recommends the Scanspeak 10F/8424G 4” as a replacement.
Apparently no modifications to the crossover are required. Has
anyone heard the CS3.5 with the 10F/8424G? If so, can you describe the
sound? Power handling long term max power of 30W and a relatively low 400Hz crossover seem OK? This is reportedly a most outstanding driver. Do you think it is an improvement over the original mid-range driver?
Moved this question to the Thiel Forum. Hope it's in the right place. Thanks.
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Coherent speakers must heed the listening position to test properly. JA knows this. His normal, small room would add too many early reflections to give readable graphs. So he chose 50” which gives false readings for coherent sources. There are other review rags using more legitimate methods.
Early on, JA explained, even apologized for the misleading readings. But subsequent ownership policy changed that. |
I now realize what I've been misinterpreting for fifteen years. The infamous Stereophile measurements are taken at 50". Their 2.4 test figure #5 "vertical response family" shows the 1kHz crossover suckout just above the tweeter axis.
So at my 9' listening position vs their 4'
measurement position you suggest I have far more leeway for vertical response, even though my 38" listening position is only 2" above "ideal." Whew.
I can't understand how JA's 50" measurements correlate to the real world for any speakers but pure-nearfield mini-monitors, regardless of XO design or driver spacing, especially the large multi-ways they typically test. |
sdecker - tilting is the less offensive solution. But the changes introduced by either tilting or lifting are very small and either provides better performance than listening at the 'wrong' window. The coherence puzzle has its requirements, and Jim chose the average 3' ear height as part of the solution. The window is not as small as some imagine it to be unless you sit closer than 8' where it falls apart very quickly. Sit at 10' and you get a lot of leeway.
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The butcher blocks aren't a solution for me due to WAF and stability, and with Tom's information, why upset my frequency balance, when the bass in my room is outstanding as is? But is tilting the speakers <1" back on spikes, which tilts the baffle back the same amount, launching the wavefront 'higher', as the laser pointer indicates 8" higher at 9'? Even if in so doing I lose a couple degrees of phase and gain a taller listening window before midrange suckout? Or don't I really? |
stspur
Thank You for the update. Good to read we have another DIY member of the Panel.
Happy Listening!
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Hey fellow Thiel 'Gonners! Just wanted to give you updates on my 3.6 XO project. Thanks for all the wonderful advice thus far! I placed orders for Mills MRA -12 resistors some time ago and they have trickled in slowly due to shipping delays from our present unpleasentness. The first round did come in last week and was able to place 1, 6, and 15 ohm resitors into service this weekend. WOW! I'm just astounded at difference just a few new resitors can make: much taller and wider sound stage with less congested imaging. Can't wait for the remaining to arrive and have already placed orders for the ClarityCap CSAs as well.
There is smige of midband Squack but I am to understand that it's from the heated solder and will settle after time. 24 hours in and I'm already noticing it's disipation.
I'm continuing to stick with original layout values for now however I discovered a discrepency in my XO setup: the original layout uses a 1.8ohm resistor in series after the midrange first station gang . my XO uses doubled 10 ohm restistors in it's place. These are original Thiel resistors so I know they were plaaced into service at the shop. I'm to understand that there were a few updates after the last layout was used and the final version printed though. Leave it to Jim and the team to continue upgrading even after production was well underway; a testimate to their integrity and passion. More to come.
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Yes, the butcher block will work. But remember that the bass will shelve down at 200Hz to lose a little weight as you raise the woofer up from its design height from the floor.
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dhoff01
Yes, butcher block will work. Fine tune the height of speakers to your musical preference.
Happy Listening!
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jazzman7
Nice catch! Happy Listening!
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sdecker - I was thinking more in terms of a butcher block or something similar to help raise the height, but I hear what you're saying.
I'm also lucky in that I have my own dedicated room above the garage, but I still have to make it aesthetically pleasing for the missus. Not that I'm complaining, of course..
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dhoff01: raising the speakers 2" on the spikes, if they could go up that high, would be precarious and less-stable. Not that sound travels this way, but putting a laser pointer atop the speaker and raising the front spikes 1" up moves the laser pointer up 8" at my 9' listening distance. I'm doing this to manage a taller vertical listening window w/o suckout, even though I'm sure it takes a very small hit in overall coherency. The tiny amount of potential phase shift from this is still far better than every non-time-aligned speaker out there!
Regarding the positioning, a lot of it is a function of living room WAF symmetry. But the walls to the side and rear are so far away from the speaker boundaries, I can't believe they play a role at these distances, especially because none of them are 'true' walls in my open floor plan.
If my toe-in was any less, it wouldn't be visible. It was from putzing with speaker width apart vs soundstage breadth vs HF balance. If I went from <10 deg toe-in to zero, the effect would be minimal for sure. But after 15 years of tweaking these speakers to this acoustic, I can now notice ridiculously small changes. So rather than obsess about it, I take the time to find a reasonable compromise and let them sit in that position for years :-) |
Good stuff guys. Thanks for chiming in.
sdecker- instead of tilting the speakers, have you tried raising them altogether by a couple of inches so you can also maintain time/phase coherency? Or is there another disadvantage to doing it this way? Just curious..
I also find it interesting that you both toe in and you keep your speakers positioned equidistant in the corners. I prefer not to toe in mine, as I find it takes away from the width of the soundstage, but that’s just my personal preference. I also always heard that you shouldn’t place your speakers at the same distances to the side and back walls, but always questioned whether this was truly required when considering speaker placement.
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dhoff01
I try to measure everything from or to the tweeter on my 2.7s ,
speakers are 8ft apart and 8ft 6 inches from my ears
31 inches from front wall and 32 inches from side wall
with 1/2 inch toe in .
Listening height is 36 inches .
I just recently moved the speakers 6 inches further away and reduced the toe in by 1 inch after changing speaker cables to take advantage
of the improved depth and sound staging .
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I can offer what I find to be nearly ideal for my 2.4 listening position/setup. Speakers 8' apart center-to-center, toed-in 10 degrees each or less, grilles on. 9.5' coax to my ear. 38" listening height. I use the coax as my reference point as that defines the source of the most-directional sound and imaging and phase information comes from when making small adjustments to position.
But I've used the spikes to tilt the speakers back an unspecified amount, a little bit because my ear is 2" higher than design, but mostly due to having more vertical latitude for frequency balance. Stereophile's vertical response graphs illustrate (though perhaps at too close a distance) that response above the coax axis sucks-out the lower-mids, and below the coax
further
fills-in the lower-mids. So even if I give up some degree of time/phase coherency by tilting the speaker further back (altering arrival times ever-so-slightly from spec) I get more wiggle-room before midrange suck-out.
Additionally, each speaker is pretty much in free-space, 6' from cabinet edges to either side wall and 3' to a 'soft' back wall, 6' to a 'hard' back wall. Nothing at all diffractory around the speakers or between the speakers and my ears, or even to the sides, after a little living room tweakage for a proper listening session, ie move the coffee table behind the speakers rather than right in front of the couch.
A thick pile carpet, soft cushy furniture against the back wall, and an 8'x2' acoustical absorber behind the couch/listening positions.
RTA shows a lumpy low-frequency response due to my open floor plan asymmetrical living room (though this also puts 25Hz at 0dB ref 1kHz!), but otherwise lets the Thiels be Thiels with as little room interference as possible. So I'm fortunate my current living space allows for such a great setup for any speaker to sound their best. |
Tom,
Thanks so much for weighing in. I do enjoy a listening height of 3', which I noticed from your earlier posts is a critical factor in finding the sweet spot. It also makes complete sense that there are many variables at play that have a greater impact on sound than focusing on precise placements. But as you well know, we love to get lost in the details! And with so much out there about distance from the walls, the listening position, and each speaker (including 3 full pages with 5 diagrams that Jim dedicated to it in my 3.7 manual), I just couldn't resist asking what people think the norm is (so thanks as well for mentioning you measure from the tweeter/midrange).
Room treatments is probably my biggest missing element. Presently I have an "acoustifuser" panel on my wall behind the listening spot that I purchased from Next Generation Acoustics, but nothing else to speak of besides some well position furniture and window shades. Part of the issue is aesthetics (yes, it's a weakness), but it also is another rabbit hole that I fear I'll never get out of. Of course, that also is where the fun lies.. |
Dhoff - I'll add some context to your location question. Mostly, the spot you choose is up to you. You keep track of locating the speaker in your space and dimensions are handy for doing that.
In the background, is that the issues in play are rather larger than which spot you pick. The driver integration, lobing, room reflections, etc. are more dependent on the room variables than on the measurements. The spot I use is the tweeter plate, which is the same distance from the listener as the sonic centers of the midrange and woofer, which are both hard to determine, but closer to their voice coils than the baffle.
Relatedly, the angle of launch into the room is of great importance, but lacks an easy numeric measurement. That angle is influenced by how far the listener is off-axis, and also how the mix of the various frequencies of the various drivers is delivered into the room and the listener. I tilt the speaker back vertically to account for my 42" ear position (against the 3' design position). That tilting also affects the sonic envelope due to floor interactions which are different than the design assumptions (seated on a couch at 3' ear height).
The fun never stops.
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Jafant,
I currently measure the same way you do. From my ear(s), I measure just over 8 feet from where the base of the speaker is. Speakers are also 8 feet apart (measured from the center of each speaker) and 2’ 6” from the back walls (measured from the closest point on the rear of the speaker, which is near the top). After a lot of trial and error, I find that placing the speakers on the long wall provides the best results for me, so while I sacrifice some in terms of distance from the back wall, I enjoy 5’ of distance from each side wall (measured from the tweeter). But since my room measures at 20x15, I don’t have much wiggle room in terms of distance from the wall behind the listening position and the distance behind the speakers. I try to keep my ears at least 3 feet from the wall behind me, which I think makes a bigger difference than the distance behind the speakers.
Long winded way of saying I’m curious if everyone measures the same way. Do you measure from the outside of the cabinet, from the tweeter, from the center line, or a mix (like me) depending on which wall/speaker you’re looking at? I’d love to hear Tom Thiel’s thoughts too..
Thanks,
David
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arvincastro
You ears do not deceive. White Ladder is a well-produced recording by David Gray. This year the album celebrates a 20th anniversary.Enjoy the Music!
Happy Listening!
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dhoff01
Good to see you again. I suspect that each of us could measure from a different part of the loudspeaker. Personally, I measure from the front of the base (bottom cabinet) where the Thiel logo is located.Using this method, I have never had an issue considering our beloved speakers offer pin-point imaging. Keep us posted as you test your own preference.
Happy Listening!
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Hello all!
Haven't posted in a while, but happy to see the "usual suspects" as well as some new posters contributing to this great thread...I hope everyone is safe and well.
Tonight, looking to listen to something on the more mellow side, I decided to revisit David Gray's "White Ladder" album (streamed from Tidal, then from my own CD ripped to my Bluesound Vault). While Gray's music can be lumped into the "Mom Rock/Pop" category, I always felt his song writing and musicality were way better than other performers (i.e. singers) of the genre. Listening to this album tonight, I couldn't help but feel that I was listening to something that should be considered as reference-quality material.
For whatever reason, I never realized how ell recorded this album is: the backgrounds are dead quiet, which really helps heighten the moody tone of the songs as well as allow Gray's vocals to be presented with some real air to them. The musical performance is excellent as well...piano being Gray's primary instrument, his playing shines here as well as multi-layered strings and percussion giving you a sense of how complex the music is, yet presented in such an easy, soothing way. But, most of all, many of the tracks on "White Ladder" have electronic components to them, primarily drum/beat machines. This is what surprised and captivated me the most...low, deep bass with real slam and snap to the timing. My 3.5's conveyed this with astonishing authority...bass that could be felt and heard, but never without a sense of musicality.
Again, I don't know exactly why this album, which I have always loved and have known well, sounded so different (in a very good way!) to me tonight. I chalk it up to finally having that second D240 MKII ARC amp in my system and running them bridged-mono...480 watts/channel is a lot of watts. But more importantly, I guess I'm just in a very comfortable place where the music just sounds so good coming out of my system, no matter what I select to play.
Anyway...if you haven't heard the album, I recommend giving it a listen. And if you have, I suggest listening to it again with an ear to its musicality and complexity. You may be pleasantly surprised to find a new reference-quality recording!
Thanks for reading and contributing to this forum...I truly learn so much from you all. Again, I hope you and yours are all staying safe and doing well...Take care!
Arvin |
Quick question (and forgive me if this has been asked and answered before) - when measuring the distance between the 3.7 (or 2.7) and the listening position, do you measure from the tweeter/midrange or the woofer? I assume that it’s the tweeter, but given the slope of the speakers the measurement can change depending on the focal point.
Thanks,
David |
All
yesterday's HiFi Chats featured Micheal Fremer of Stereophile fame.
Happy Listening!
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frankm1
Stereophile Test CDs are excellent and can be found on the cheap from eBay. Keep me posted on which disc(s) purchased.
Happy Listening!
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Hed - the EQ itself is not the problem; the problem is that producing that much bass down to 40 or 20 Hz takes lots of muscle. No accident that subwoofers sport kilowatt amps! The eq presents a benign, non-reactive amp load which is easier to drive than the more reactive passive radiator loading of newer Thiel products. In Frank's small room, his amp might fill the bill.
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hedwigstheme
Welcome! The CS 2.4 can be easily found on the secondary market.
Keep us posted upon acquiring a pair of Thiel loudspeakers.
Happy Listening!
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I've never had a Thiel although I have heard a few in the distant past. Hope to pick up a 2.4/2.7/3.7 someday--too much stuff right now.
I could easily be wrong on this, but I thought that I read that the Thiel equalizer puts a demanding load in the bass on an amplifier and that a 200 watt/ch solid state at 8 ohms that doubles into 4 ohms and again into 2 ohms was recommended regardless of room size and listening volume. |
I’m in the process of acquiring a test cd so I can better identify just what is going on with the bass. Will keep everyone posted. |
Frank - your description suggests the EQ is not working. I suggest getting a test recording. In your room, the deep bass should be big and boomy, and the woofer and midrange should visibly pump much harder than without the EQ.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I know the eq has been recently recapped so I suspect it is operating properly. Although I’ve never really used an equalizer I do currently have one ( other than the Thiel one) in my system - see my virtual system under ‘Frankm1’s (mostly) vintage system’. I’ll try the 40 setting for a while and try some different source material. |
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I’m guessing you meant un-equalized CS 1.2’s?
Checking the eq is a good suggestion. I’ve never had a problem with mine, but in the last 30 years there have been some reports of eq issues. Your available power is just about the minimum suggested for the 3.5’s, but it is a small (and not ideally proportioned) room, and that might the reason for the limited bass response. I’ll hazard a guess and say the 40 Hz setting will probably work better in your room.
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Can you hear a difference with the eq in or out of the chain? With the eq should make a noticeable difference. Otherwise your eq may needs a check up. I have had 2 of mine repaired as they are vulnerable to static electricity.
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unsound
I have the equalizer between the preamp (Marantz 7T) and the amp (Marantz 15). I've tried the 20 and the 40 settings but haven't detected any difference. I have had the amp and preamp completely gone through and restored as needed. The amp, although rated at 70 watts into 4 ohms is actually putting out 80 watts. I know that may be on the low side but the room is not large - about 12X12X8. The bass doesn't really seem to be significantly different from the equalized 1.2's. Maybe my expectations were too high; I was hoping to be able to feel it (without too much volume)! |
frankm
Welcome! The 3.5 loudspeaker is a Panel favorite. New, old or vintage this thread offers something for every Audiophile. Take your time perusing as there is a plethora of information. Have fun!
I look forward in reading more about your system and musical tastes.
Happy Listening! |
