Bj, Z, Macro, Fig,AZ, Moon: to each his own. Each of your comments contain truth.
Dan: thanks for cutting to the chase. There are few businesses where one can spend appreciable amounts of time before wrapping up (literally or figuratively) a purchase as one can in an audio salon. There are those amongst us who turn stores into a replacement of mom and dad's rec room, a place to gather and consume time and energy without thought of material or human cost.
Well, after a point, mom and dad don't appreciate it, and neither do retailers. Also like mom and dad, retailers do appreciate a bit of honesty, an occasional inkling of appreciation, and perhaps, a periodic infusion of cash.
Thanks to all who took the time to post their thoughts regarding Sound by Singer, about the state of audio retailing, and life in general.
The Hub will continue its coverage of the state of audio retailing with a review of economic events of the past few years. We will of course focus on the world of audio, but as you may have noticed, things are tough all over.
We ask you to ponder this question, with regards to the audio industry:
Just how bad is it? |
I am very much aware of some of the negative comments that have been made about Andy Singer. I am sure that he is no teddy bear and have rubbed some people the wrong way.
Yet, I feel that the business that he ran and the well qualified sales people, of varying personality, that he hired were the real deal and this was not just another audio store that drifted into home theater because everyone else was doing it.
Thanks to Andy, I was introduced to some of the finest audio designers and iconic gear in the hobby's history. I was always treated with respect because I gave Andy and his team respect and more importantly honesty.
If more people in this hobby, and this world for that matter, would simply tell a professional the truth about their purchase and budgetary intentions, so much bullshit in business would be eradicated and both sides could win.
"No, I cannot afford this right now but would greatly appreciate the opportunity to hear and understand it so I can make a better educated decision later; (or simply enjoy the experience) but I may consider something less expensive in the near to medium future."
A reasonable paraphrase of my approach to that store. It was appreciated and I was treated very very well as a result. And, I did make good on my promise by paying a great deal of money for a demo unit some month's later that I still have to this day and have enjoyed. Long term relationships in high - end retail can be the most profitable of all. Many just don't get it. Andy and his team did.
D.H.
CT Audio Society |
I always got a laugh out of seeing the full page flavour of the month stereo systems or individual product ads in Stereophile showing $60,000 speakers , etc
Seeing these ads made me think that they only were catering to one crowd , the high heeled of society and completely ignorning the average person who is an audiophile and into high end.
My quess is that the rich people they were catering to in those ads would be probably a one time buyer.They bought the best , the ad said so, no more purchases. I would further conclude that many of the customers had the $$ but probably knew squat about equipment or high end in general and it was just a status symbol purchase.
Too bad they ignored the little guys, as they are the ones that will buy again and upgrade because this is their passion.Maybe they would still be in business. I for one won't miss those silly ads in Stereophile. |
Salespeople of many high end products are taught to "qualify" a customer early on, so as not to waste precious time with someone who doesn't have the financial wherewithal to actually make a purchase. This can also have a positive outcome for the salesperson in the case of the fringe buyer (someone who can barely afford to buy; or has good credit), as some customers who take the brush-off personally respond with an "Oh ya? I'll show you!" purchase.
These seemingly snobby, elitist salespeople never seem to be in a position where they need to actually "close" a sale. The customer seems to do it for them!
Genius, I say. After all, they're not in the gig to make friends, are they?
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Something inside me tells we will see and hear more from him thru the net.... Might be wrong thou. |
I only ever met Andy Singer once twenty odd years ago and have made sure that record stood up right until the present. He reminded me of King Farouk the way he made his employees wait on him and the way he ordered everyone around. Corpulent and dismissive best describe him in my memory. |
I've never been in his store, never talked to them on the phone or anywhere else. (But then I tend not to go to dealers or shows period.) Heard a couple of stories alluded to over the years, but my only real exposure was to his Stereophile ads. I'll say two things about those ads: 1) I usually didn't like their text, or appeciate the everpresent photos of the hirsute, overweight proprietor, or admire the high expense they so obviously represented, and 2) I always read them anyway.
In any case, my impression was always to take as real the comment made about the relationship between Singer's shop and the fortunes of Wall Street, and I never could help but wonder, not only where this conspicuously large money actually came from and whether or not it was truly earned (and did this breed of customer even really know and love music at all?), but what kind of potentially negative effect was a single exceptional (in the literal sense) store like Singer's capable of having on the direction of the high end in general and the ability of ordinary non-"Masters Of The Universe" types like me to afford it. |
Probably couldn't pull it off for lack of horse and buggy parking. Can you get a horse and buggy through the Holland tunnel these days?
I imagine audio sales in a large city to be trying on the patience. All those tire kickers and lowballers coming through just to listen and leave empty handed. Folks saying "Sure but I can get it for $5000 less on Audiogon...
I have no interest in being in the business but if you choose retail for a career you need to at least be congenial, welcome customers, and have people walk away with a fantastic experience. Maybe I have it backwards and the folks at SBS are sailing a Nordwinds to Fiji right now.
Too bad. |
Map: thanks for the image of guys in white shirts, black hats and suspenders, covertly listening to Def Leppard in a barn! Classic.
Ogi: thanks for that cheery thought!
Ozy: right. I think....
Orpheus: yeah, they had a lot of kudzu in Mississippi, south of Memphis, too. Thanks for the story! |
I saw Mr. Singer so many times in the magazines I subscribed to that I felt I knew him. I miss what Mr. Singer represented. He represented the "High end" to me. I say this in an abstract kind of way. High end "emporiums" where you could listen to the equipment that you couldn't afford are sadly missed by me.
The first time a sales-person told me about "Koetsu", I thought he said "Kudsu", "Yeah, they got a lot of that down in Georgia", I responded. That was my introduction to the "High end". |
the bad news-- a landmark, qustionable as it might be, is gone from our audio hobby landscape... sign of things to come?
the good news-- sbs is finally gone! oof, that was along time coming....sign of things to come? |
Oh, Well. As the mayor of my town once told me. "There will always be someone to take your place if you go under"
There is no customer loyalty in todays society. |
Years ago working for radio shack, some of my best customers were Amish kids who bought car stereos and ran them off car batteries in their barns (probably behind parent's backs)! |
Davey:
Years ago when I was in the racing industry in Memphis, a guy walked into our showroom wearing overalls and muddy boots. As the junior salesman, I looked to see if any of the other guys were going to help the farmer at the counter. No one did.
Reluctantly, I went to wait on him. He asked intelligent questions about a number of expensive engine components. I answered to the best of my ability, and eventually he said, "I'll take 'em".
Still skeptical, I filled out the sales ticket for about $5000 in parts and asked, "how would you like to pay, Sir?"
He simply said, "cash", and pulled out the proverbial horse-choker roll of bills from his overall pocket, peeling off a stack of hundreds.
We all know better than to judge by appearances, but we all do it. Whether we think we do, or not. |
Speaking of Steve Guttenberg, his blog today addresses concerns on the subject of brick and mortar survival: Cnet Article |
Rx8man, and I are in agreement.
Here is an interesting story that I heard about a few years ago at a 'high-end' appliance store. A disheveled man walked into the showroom and asked to speak to a salesperson. The salesperson came up to this man and proceeded to quickly show him the door. A friend of mine works at this companies competitor a few miles away. The same man came in and a salesperson there helped him buy a 'Gaggenau' oven that day. Over a period of a few months this customer spent nearly $1M on various items for several properties that he owned. Well one day, the salesperson, who now had a good relationship with his customer, asks him why he doesn't get dressed up when he goes out? The customer's answer: Who am I trying to impress? |
Thanks for the comments, all. I'm especially glad to read positive comments about dealers who, along with manufacturers and distributors, are the risk-takers in a difficult and unpredictable field.
I got out of retail ages ago when it became obvious to me that I would eventually murder a customer. The level of demands imposed by customers often seems inversely proportional to the amount of the customer's purchases. I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can operate in any type of sales, especially retail sales, and maintain a pleasant demeanor and provide good service. It ain't easy.
Music: you're right about the number of highly skilled folks who worked for and with Andy. That's why I made a point of bringing up Messrs. Guttenberg and DeVore, two of the most dedicated and pleasant gents I know.
Thanks again to you all for taking the time to comment.
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I second the thumbs up on Goodwins High End. Solid advice and over the top customer service, regardless of where one buys in be it entry level or the most esoteric. That's why after 30+ years still going strong. Well done Al Goodwin and continued success. |
"however, to succeed with this approach, a retailier needs to be fanatical about customer care and service"
Bingo! |
as long as you're the exclusive purveyor of a desirable product, there's nothing intrinsically wrong or irrational with a no-discount/no-haggling policy. lexus and range rover built their brands this way (although they too have sucumbed to economic times and softened their pricing policies). however, to succeed with this approach, a retailier needs to be fanatical about customer care and service--look at lexus's consistently top rankings for buying experience. in audio, i firmly believe there will always be a place for fancy, full-price bricks and mortar stores--there's still a lot of moneyed people who prefer to shop that way--but i trust that these retailiers have never had to work harder and smarter to survive. |
I know Andy, I like Andy and I respect Andy.
If you were to look at the number of audio writers, importers and manufacturers who have worked with and for Andy (some for several years) you would find that, singularly, amazing.
Andy had a huge investment in audio product and expertise. The number of sales staff and support staff was at the very least double of any other North American audio store. I spent time with he and his wife and many of his customers (customers that could actually afford and did actually purchase audio products - what a thought) they also adored him for his customer service and attention to detail. His persona, to the public, was partially self-manufactured and believe me when I say that it was a good thing.
Andy was and is a businessman who made a huge investment in a city with the highest costs and survived through the toughest of times in the worst of markets and the most difficult of consumers. I know of no importer or audio maker that, in times good and bad, would not have begged to have been available in his store (and I did see one speaker maker beg, literally beg, to be there it wasn't pretty.)
He will always be Andy. I respect Andy. |
Rule #1: View every person who walks in the door as a potential customer.
SBS did not follow rule #1. Even in NY city, this rule still applies!
Go to Goodwin's. I believe they really love audio there. I always felt they did everything possible to make my visit very positive. |
I'm with Daveyf, every person is a perspective buyer.
Attitude has no business when someone is shelling out their cash, whether hard-earned, or given.
It takes years to establish a good reputation and less than a minute to lose it, there are other dealers.
Probably a good idea to live in a gated community with a security system for restful sleep. |
Never met Andy and his boys, but appears I have met his kind before. Thought I would take a newbie buddy to one of the nicer shops in my area. Was treated like trash. Made me feel like a fool. My friend confused. That is why so many of use Agon. |
Azjake, This is unlike Brooks. Ask for Brian ( his son) if Brooks is not around. Although I have not talked with them in at least a year. hopefully they are still around and in business! |
TP: C'mon, don't discourage the newbies! Not discouraging anybody,just stating a fact!!!! |
Ferrari: great story. Thanks.
Map: If they're gonna do that, why not just have a security guard like they do at Tiffany?
Loom: dunno what to tell you. Never been that much of a masochist, and been in audio too long to put up with nonsense.
Chaz: I live in Florida. Don't need to see a documentary; the political campaign ads make 'Scarface' look like a Disney cartoon.
TP: C'mon, don't discourage the newbies!
Garvin: that makes too much sense to work. Thanks, though.
Nil:Somehow, I don't think it was Andy. ;->
Thanks, all for the great comments. |
I wanted to re-terminate three tonearms to xlr and was advised to speak with Brooks...
I called, THREE TIMES, and was told he was out and would return my calls which never happened!
Is he, like Andy, one of the "big dogs"? Yes, but that's no excuse for poor business conduct whether it be for service, sales, info etc.
Just seems to me that karma comes around...sooner or later...:-)
R.I.P. Andy et all! |
Couple of years back I came in to some money and was in market for some exotic electronics and so I called and simply said: I want to buy these cd combo, preamp, phono, and monoblocks and I am ready to send a cashier's check. No BS and let us negotiate ceratin discount and give me the final total price. I don't know who answered (May be it was Andy!) but they said okay it is retail price plus shipping. I asked No discounts? He curtly said: if you want discount go someplace else! We are talking six figures plus deal here and he said (practically) it is his way or get lost. The whole conversation took less than few minutes! May be I needed to be a bit more tactful and may be to his credit, may be he thought I am pulling his chain
Brooks Berden would have been all over his heels, graciously, to make this deal happen
I was glad I did not fly specially to NY for this!
Oh well, I will remember his usual two-page-King-of-the-hill ads though |
Mapman, I would have no issue with a salesman lurking around to make sure I did not break anything. I'd do the same thing. But I would simply remark that I am there to answer any questions you may have, and heck, since there are no other customers around, if you want to hear something, let me know. That lets me just look around, does not piss me off, but gives them the piece of mind nothing will be broken. Win win. |
Thats what makes these sight so invaluable.
No bs here.
If it does not sound good, or theres no bang for buck, you won't find it on Agon.
Hate to hear about it, end of an era :(.
Pep21 Pep21....I noticed you just joined the site this month.Hang around a bit,I think you might change your mind!!! |
"Chaz: uh... Right. Thanks for the interesting comment. I'll mention it to Peter next time I see him!"
Bill, I'd love to hear his response! You should chk out the documentary 'Cocaine Cowboys', a fascinating tale that not only sheds a glaring light on the drug trade but is also a primer on the amazing growth of S. FL. from a sleepy gigantic retirement village to what it is today (good AND bad!). If you chk out the video you'll see how, at a time when the rest of the country was hurting financially, S. FL. was booming! Interviews with high-end jewelry, real estate, & car dealers clearly show how they were making incredibly huge amounts of money during this time. If McGrath didn't make profit, he'd have to be the ONLY high-end merchant that didn't! Plz don't misunderstand, him and all the rest weren't doing ANYTHING illegal by selling their goods, but the truth can't be denied.
Be forewarned, this movie makes 'Scarface' look like a Disney cartoon! |
i have no reason to doubt the many horror stories about this retailer, but remain confused as to how it could possibly have remained in business for 15+ years. who, specifically, is the market for haughty attitude and hostile service? is there some sort of nyc soup-nazi thing where it's considered kitschy fun to get some abuse with each purchase? inquiring minds want to know... |
They had a lot of expensive gear on display and I noticed not all of it in good working order.
I suspect avoiding damage to expensive gear by customers just looking to be a big motivator for a shop like that.
I can think of two other larger recent NYC shops with similar practices of locking customers out of rooms with high end equipment. One of those also went under in recent years. I have not noticed that practice though in other smaller high end shops in otehre areas I have been in though FWIW. |
I remember my Grandfater who was a Army Calvary officer in the Spanish-American War and later on in France in WW1. He took me aside one day, he said only two things happen in life. You either give a lesson or you get taught a lesson. Neither one of them are bad, because in the process you have learned something and it is up to you to make your decisions based upon those lessons.
He was not the easiest person to deal with as I recall, but you always knew the unvarnished truth.
Perhaps in this day and age there is still something to be learned from the lessons he spoke of. Those words have always stuck with me. Dear old Grand Dad was in my mind the John Wayne of his time. He passed in 1959 with full military honors and I won't forget that day in Arlington.
Just a thought in dealing with some of the folks we come into contact with today. |
James, tennis, Davey: it's said to feel you have to actively AVOID the proprietor of a store. Generally, one seeks out the head guy. Sheesh.
Ferrari: We'll see.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to comment. |
MrTennis, what an interesting comment you say in #5..Try to avoid Andy.
What a pathetic comment to have to make; Frankly, I would have thought the one person you would have been glad to see should have been Andy, and conversely the other way around.(Andy should have been more than pleased to see you, a prospective customer!)
The fact that you wished to avoid him says volumes about his professionalism, IMHO.
The treatment that Jamesgarvin received was common place in many dealers. I myself have experienced this behavior and would then go out of my way to do two things..1) Avoid any future contact with these establishments and 2) Try and make sure that any other prospective customers were aware of the treatment that I received. Usually after some amount of time, these establishments would close their doors for good. |
i have had a totally different experience at the store. i used a different startegy. however, i would say that auditioning a stereo system for the purpose of trying to decide whether or not to buy a component or , compare components is highly problematic.
i may be in the minority, but i feel that anything less than a personal audition in ones stereo system makes buying a component a crap shoot.
my strategy for singer:
1) don't stay there too long
2) make an appointment with a sales person to ostensibly audition a specific component.
3) do your listening and leave.
4) do your listening on a weekday (mon thru thuirs, afternoon when it is not busy.
5) try to avoid andy.
i was lucky. when i visited the store, on average, once per year, for a period of time, andy was busy. he passed by one of the listening rooms but did not engage in conversation.
i did buy an inexpensive component from the store. |
My only experience was when visiting my sister in Manhattan around 1991. I was merely a prospective law student, not the full fledged lawyer I am now. I went into the store just to look. After all, SBS was the pre-eminent store in the U.S., and how could I go to NYC without visiting the mecca of high end audio?
The listening rooms at the time were separated by sliding glass doors. When I entered the store, the sliding glass doors to all the rooms were open. I went into the first listening room, and kept my hands behind my back for fear that someone might think I was going to play around with the equipment. No other prospective customers were in the store, and I did not ask any sales personnel for assistance because I did not want to take a salesman's time knowing I was just looking around.
After I walked out of the first room, a salesman closed the sliding to the next three or four rooms. Nobody was in them. For whatever reason, he clearly did not want me even looking around.
I very much doubt I was the only person who experienced that type of behavior. In a hobby that has difficulty attracting the newbie, it can ill afford to offend prospective members. I think SBS wanted an exclusive clientelle, was proud of it, and became a victim to it. I lament the passing of a high end audio store, but I really wonder how much SBS added to our hobby. |
And why should that be a surprise - You gotta love it Bill - See they do resurface in one form or another. |
Speaking of landing on his feet, the Singer website now announces Sound by Singer Direct:
http://www.soundbysinger.com/high-end-audio/product_389
I guess we'll see what that means in months to come.
Manufacturers, distributors--care to comment? Any inside news? |
No worries mercurial people such as Andy and Peter always manage to land on their feet. So there is no worry there. Fortunately there are people in the business such as Larry at Hollywood Sound and the Audio Center in Deerfield Beach,FL, that are a joy to work with and a few others out there as well. But for warts and all it is sad to see Sound By Singer to shut down. Although business models such as this have little or no value today. |
Pep: I seriously doubt that all audio sales will become web-based. The web does make for a different sales environment which many brick and mortars have used to expand their reach and customer base. It ain't ALL bad, by any means!
Davey: No telling what the cause is. Thanks for your comment.
Ferrari: I'm used to more congenial comments from you. Now here's another one Peter will never let me forget. Thanks? ;->
2001:I agree with you. It's easy to criticize manufacturers, distributors and dealers, but it takes guts to take stands and put your money where your mouth is. Thanks for your comment. |
I never met Singer nor his store personally, but it was almost impossible to miss their adds featuring exotic gear and a full-body picture of Andy, a little too much for my tastings, but that is me.
I have always realized that being an audio retailer is for the brave, passionate and devoted individual, and I admire such posture of embracing challenge and fate, on the other hand, I still think that this industry has evolved to a lesser speed that it deserves due to lack of creativity and imagination from both manufacturers and their distribution arm, it had to be an outsider company from a related industry to open their eyes and discover a HUGE market out there for listening and enjoying musical reproduction.
I wish this gentleman the best of luck and thank him for his courage and enthusiasm, one learns more about example than anything else. |
I have personally had no experience with Andy Singer.However, when you read all of the negative comments about him and his store, even if a small percentage are true, then it speaks volumes about his concern for the customer, or lack thereof.
Many years ago, I was extremely insulted by one of my local dealers, I decided on the spot to never do business with him again...Before that I had spent thousands of dollars with him. So, the easy solution for me was to take my business elsewhere..which i did. In the intervening years I bought several systems and spent large sums on them.Interestingly it never occurs to these foolish dealers that at the end of the day, they are the ones that will suffer most from their actions.
Makes me wander if the people that needed to buy from Sound by Singer also ultimately voted with their pocketbooks. |
Trust me Peter McGrath knew he was a pain in the ass and chased off more customers than he would ever win over, but that was him, no better or worse than Andy. Quite typical of the early high end scene during those early days which in manys continue to manifest to this day. But I can be a major pain as well. I am the customer and I have the loot. I busted both these guys chops back in the day. If for nothing more than sh*t and grins. |
It is really sad, and a sign of things to come.
I think eventually, all sales will be web based, and you will not be able to listen to any products, just read what the magazines want you to buy.
There were several mid-high end stores locally, but all have gone under since Best Buy moved to town.
We had a Circuit City also, but they have since moved on.
There is one mom & pop audio store left in town, and they are supreme rip off artists, or at least they think they are.
They carry Klipsch, Integra, Sony (god please don't get me started on Sony!).
I really miss the time when I could walk into a store and listen to KILLER Yamaha separates running Infinity Preludes and so on, and so on......
Now days, you either have to read, buy, or take someones word for the performance of products.
Thats what makes these sight so invaluable.
No bs here.
If it does not sound good, or theres no bang for buck, you won't find it on Agon.
Hate to hear about it, end of an era :(. |
Chaz: uh... Right. Thanks for the interesting comment. I'll mention it to Peter next time I see him! |
"the megabuck systems sold by Andy Singer reflected not just the extremes and excesses of the high end, but of Wall Street itself."
Much like Peter McGrath's Sound Components store in S. Fl. experienced tremendous growth & success during the 'Cocaine Cowboys' era in Florida! |
Uru: agreed, he will be missed.
Clark:"no hard feelings, though". Really?? Doesn't sound that way! Glad something positive came out of the debacle, though.
Grant: Thanks for clarifying the big picture. I agree with you that losing SBS is a loss for us all. And, hey--I like the guy. ;-> |
