Mac: I'd have to say that 2-channel was in decline before the arrival of HT, not due to it. HT revived a lot of dealerships, which subsequently declined when the expense of custom HT could no longer be folded into home equity lines following the crash.
Rok: Maybe so, but I think 'way back' to the early 60's where albums often had one hit surrounded by filler. There's nothing new under the sun.
Thanks to everyone for their comments on this subject. I hope you will join in the discussion with our next entry on the future of the audio industry,
"What do we do now?" |
Mr Manners: you misunderstood me I didn't mean that older people were not into current pop music.... I meant young people don't think it's very good either .... on the typical cd, at best you get one or maybe two decent songs and a lot of filler for $20 .... that's why they cherry pick songs to download online. I can remeber the time when most cuts on an lp were very good. my point was addressing why younger people are not investing in high end audio gear. |
Home theater is why 2 channel was in decline.
Audiophiles are like pipe smokers in that a few still exist and ever so infrequently someone young comes along and enlists himself. Both have to be realistically viewed as dying breeds however. |
Mac: I remember visiting a few of those car dealers in the middle of nowhere. They were patient and kind to a car-crazy teen, just as the audio dealers gave me access to gear I could never afford. I'm afraid those days are largely gone: hard to imagine a 19-year-old being allowed to test-drive a 911 these days.
I think regional shows and roadshows are vital to the future of audio in whatever form it might ultimately take. However, I have a hard time imagining enough direct sales taking place at them to obviate the need for dealers, for most manufacturers.
Rok: I think every generation says that the younger generation's music stinks, but I hear what you're saying. I wouldn't hold my breath about the big manufacturers bailing out the tweak guys; nice thought, though!
Mr.: Perhaps they can remain "active" indefinitely, but I think "viable" might be stretching it.
Mac, again: For quite a few years HT helped dealers survive while 2-channel audio was in decline. Not sure "cacaphonic" is a word, but if it's not, it should be!
Thanks for the comments, guys. |
I think all this started with the popular acceptance of home theater. It was at that point that the emphasis shifted from music to sound effects. Little thumpy subs and cacaphonic mixes steered us away from real music. |
a manufacturer with one or two employees, who stocks no inventory and fills orders as they occur, and who has another source of income can remain viable indefinitely. |
one other factor: with the exception of classical music, what music is there worth spending a fortune on gear to hear. Other than classical music, all the CDs i buy are by artist long dead or disbanded. what we have is a perfect storm. everything is coming together to kill so-called high-end audio. in the auto industry FIAT and VW bailed out the fancy super car makers because they had the money. maybe we should sthrow our support to the 'mid-fi' people so they can save us all. Hold your noses and buy that Harman kardon!! lol |
Bill - When I was a kid there were exotic car dealers, Ferrari, etc., here and there in unlikely small towns. Eventually, as the economics changed and common folk became excluded from participation, such dealerships became limited to concentrated and/or wealthy locations. Now the exist in only a few of our largest cities.
Something similar is happening in audio. I read about audiophiles all the time who lament the fact that there are no dealers at all near where they live. Others complain that the inventories are just too limited if they do have a store within a fur piece of home. I see this situation worsening.
I also think that is why the audio shows like RMAF are popular. Not only is it like Sturgis for audiophiles, it is also the best opportunity most of us are going to get all year to see a wide selection in one place. It doesn't hurt either that the vendors are friendly and welcoming to all. Throw in some beer and you're looking at audio's best hope of pulling through. The dealers are not irreplaceable in my mind. I replaced them back when Carter was President. |
Spring: That's an interesting take on the situation. I can't decide if it's optimistic or pessimistic!
Mac: If I hadn't heard a zillion stories just like yours, I'd be tempted to think you were a disgruntled crackpot. It saddens me that so many have been turned off by rude, patronizing, condescending or otherwise nasty dealers. It further saddens me that many think all dealers are that way. As I've said repeatedly, good dealers are irreplaceable. As we've seen, bad dealers are readily replaceable.
Thanks to you both for your provocative comments. |
Springnr has brought a question to my mind and perhaps each of us should ask himself the answer. When I respond to the question posed in the title of this thread, am I addressing the high end hobby at my house or the overall health of the high end audio business model?
I'll go first. The hobby at my house has lapsed to a great extent in recent years but still gets daily use. I still enjoy my system but I haven't had the motivation to pursue perpetual improvement. Some of the reason for this is the difficulty that can arise from trying to resell. It makes me more cautious about acquisition in the first place. Likewise, I feel I have reached a level of sophistication in my system where improvement would require a much larger outlay than I am willing to commit. So I say, good enough is good enough.
Concerning the high end audio business, I can only say that we got what we asked for. I buy used on the internet, I buy insider deals from friends in the business and I swing a trade here and there. I don't buy in stores and I found that I always lost money buying factory direct. No one will pay me as much for my used piece as they can buy a new one for, naturally. Notice that I don't buy anything from stores. They made their bed long ago as far as I'm concerned. They told me over and over again in no uncertain terms that I needed them more than they needed me. I got the message. Too many times I was treated like a know nothing by a know too little intellectual shrimp who thought that he was an expert by dint of having been hired. The arrogance and ignorance factors disqualified retail dealers for me back when I subscribed to Audio Mart. How long ago was that?
So, as far as I'm concerned, we did this to ourselves by creating an adversarial environment and pretending it was the gentlemen's club.
Greed and opportunism have been basic to this hobby from the outset in the late 1970s In the 80s the prices climbed, the margins stayed intact, and the entrepreneurs noticed. Soon the sizzle took over and the steak was stolen. Now that the dizzy pursuit has paused due to money shortages, we are bemoaning the collapse of a house of cards.
They were bound to come down though the first time the boat rocked.
The desperation of high end audio has no effect on my life whatsoever and the guys who chased me out of those stores back when have long since moved on to selling cemetery plots, life insurance or used trucks.
So there you have it. High end audio will survive but the sharks will likely be starved out of it. |
Mankind/Music go back a ways.
Not too long ago several Roman patrons sat discussing whether clients or freeman made the best musicians. Everybody already conceded that the end was near though as the wars needed to many conscripts, and the days of audiophile patrons who could afford a Hydraulusor or Sambuca were numbered.
The exuberance of audiophiles allow their enjoyment to endure. Making money off them might prove tricky at times. |
Map: Rock on, dude. It'd be nice if some wealthy soul endowed a research institute to address the mysteries of sound reproduction...but I'm not holding my breath.
They Call Me Tater Salad: I wish Brooks well, whatever the reason for his expansion. He's been a mainstay of the biz for a generation.
Spring: Not quite sure what you're getting at--but interesting, nonetheless.
Rok: Yup, price matters. Can't argue with that. Appreciate the lower case; sorry to rag you!
Thanks to all for your comments. It'll be interesting to see what you have to say when we get into our discussion of the industry's future. |
don't forget price .... its the root of the rot picture a young man getting started in life with a wife and kids being told 'you can't have real hi-fi without 2ooo dollar interconnects'. please note i am not shouting i have learned my lesson.
macrojack: well said |
Pretty good cobbler: http://www.sonos.com/demo/s5/demo.aspxIncorporated into ATC SCM-100A would add enough upper crust to make a very enjoyable slice of pie. Seems like folks, are forging ahead into a euphonious future, and I was unaware of it. |
Hifi Gary,
Brooks Berdan is expanding because he now has major competition 20 minutes a way. He was a lone soldier for years and keep his store very small. Now there is another dealer with a big showroom and some similar lines. In fact the new dealer has alot more high-end lines than Berdan. I'm sure he felt threatened and figured he had to do this to stay in business. |
Unfortunately, there is some truth in regards to high end audio being a cult like thing and also that there are credibility issues that most are incapable of dealing with effectively.
Now, rather than worry, back to listening to some music.
I'd be willing to bet millions around the world are doing exactly the same thing right now in one form or another and what they listen to sounds just fine to them. |
Mac: Ouch! How DARE you call us a cult?? See if we ever update you on the latest secret handshakes or passwords again!
I guess when you get right down to it, I'm not part of the cult. I hate gear I have to fuss over or diddle with. I want it to work immediately, work flawlessly, work every time without issue.
Is that so wrong? ;->
At one level, audiophiles are as out of touch as those guys who spend their weekends fine-tuning a Holley carb.There will likely always be some who enjoy that, just as there will be many who find (like me) such technology to be endlessly frustrating and fiddly. Sorry; give me fuel-injection, any day.
Similarly, I love turntables, have read the different cartridge set-up methodologies, have seen Michael Fremer demonstrating cartridge set-up. I can no more do a decent cartridge set-up than I can do a quadruple bypass. You can't tell me there's not a need for an expert dealer!
There will always be people who want music in the home. Will there always be card-carrying members of Audiophilia Nervosa? Some. As the technology becomes more hands-off there may be less to tweak--but never underestimate the ability of an obsessive to find something to obsess over!
Thanks for your thought-provoking comments. |
We're a cult, guys. We hold to obsolete ways. We insist that others would follow us if only they would take the time to listen. If they choose to ignore us, we forgive their pitiful ignorance and redouble our efforts to show them the light. We seem to be unaware that we are the ones who are oblivious.
Young people, maybe because we have provided them with no sense of security, are very mobile in their minds and lifestyles. You have thousands of dollars and hundreds of pounds in hardware. They have an I-Pod and ear buds. You have thousands of discs. They have a hard drive. You own a house. They will probably always rent. You had a career, often at one job. They expect to be traveling and hopping from one work opportunity to the next, always remaining somewhat mobile.
Times have changed and high end audio has not. Any adaptation that our hobby makes to the ways of the next generation, will necessitate moving away from what we hope to protect. Current trends are evolutionary, not the result of intelligent design. We are seeing the future and insisting it is a blip, an aberration, to be tolerated until the natural order is restored. Due to our jingoistic insistence that our remembered youth will rise again, we remain blind to the truth that the ship has sailed. What we cherish is the garage tinkerer aspect. Digital crapped on that a bit in the 1980s but we responded with aftermarket upgrades, modifications, and cosmetic redos. When that played out to some extent, we revived analog and began sponsoring garage tinkerer turntable makers. We ignored plainly superior designs from Japan because they came from large corporations which ran contrary to our tinkerer/inventor mythos. We elevated these guys to celebrity status and lionized those who were bold enough to lead the charge toward the Absolute Sound.
Now I hear us talking about large companies and mass marketing techniques as the way to reverse our decline. It won't work because it isn't in the spirit of the dream we continue to grasp tightly in our closed minds.
Naturally, there are those entrepreneurial individuals who want to keep it alive until they've wrung the last nickel out of it, but they are running out of ears. Too many of us are folding our cards and standing pat. What we have, after all, is the stuff of dreams. Let's just live out our last however many years and enjoy the present such as it is, rather than lamenting the consequences of inevitable change.
|
Grant: Agreed. I don't know more passionate, committed folks than those in audio. Yes, there are some bad apples; generally, they are found out and weeded out.
The recent resurgence of regional shows indicates that there is still interest and life in the field, and there are still large, untapped audiences for high-quality sound reproduction.
Will Hi-Fi ever regain the general level of acceptance it had in the '60's or '70's? No, it won't. That doesn't mean it's dead.
Far from it: I expect the advances in performance in the coming decade to be almost beyond belief.
The best is yet to come. It just might not have a 2" thick faceplate. ;->
Thanks as always for your thoughts. |
Mac: Who'd have thought of getting upside-down in an amplifier?
Jeff: If it wasn't caused by the economy, it certainly affected the economy, with 19,000 jobs lost.
Ferrari: RMAF this year will have more exhibitors than ever, and manufacturers don't spend money on shows that don't produce for them. The manufacturers doing well right now are generally long-established brands. It's very, very difficult for new brands to break into a shrinking pool of dealers, many of whom are thinning out the number of brands they're carrying.
Map: It's hard for me to think that things are better than ever when much of the biz is on life-support. Clearly it's a buyer's market, but at what cost, long-term?
Sherpa: Yup; upscale gaming is largely untapped, but offers great promise for audio sales.
Chaz: Gloomy. Bizarre how artists used to put on shows so as to sell records, and now the recordings just draw in audiences for live shows.
Many US manufacturers are surviving on sales to overseas markets, and many foreign markets are fairly robust. Many well-respected, successful brands have no presence or limited presence in the US. Gryphon comes to mind.
Mac: The old pool of customers is indeed diminished, diminishing, and dying out. That doesn't mean quality sound won't find an audience. As we've said here repeatedly, it's got to go to the iPodders, gamers, can-fans, and so on.
Shad: I've said it before, I'll say it again: in audio, EVERYTHING matters. Voodoo? In some cases. Whether or not it's cool to believe in it or even logical, a lot of that weird and even laughable gear can make a big difference in the sound.
Having said that: would you want to emphasize that if you have any hope of acceptance in the mainstream marketplace? Of course not.
Thanks to you all for your insights. |
Holy cow, pass me the Xanax! I don't know what the view from the internet is, but from the ground, east coast to west, nothing is looking_that_ bleak.
>>>I suspect that voodoo claims and marketing is much to blame. After all, high end is synonymous with very expensive highly marked up but ordinary wires<<<
Hmm, as I wrote before, in high-end end audio as in other small market economies, corruption is a private enterprise. Some companies inflate their margins beyond reason and its not exclusive to wire--though it is easier to spot. There are pockets of corruption in every industry. The days are all but over where this type of gouging goes unnoticed. Checking product re-sale values and looking into a company's history, pricing and background can help. Ask questions. Again, social networks and relationships matter in this business and economy.
In the bigger picture, much of what is best about high-end audio is still very much alive, even thriving. There remains a strong network of talented manufacturers, truly excellent dealers and a host of media outlets world wide that care about covering high-end. There are also many thousands of passionate enthusiasts that fill the show rooms in Montreal and Munich as well as respectable turnouts for RMAF and CES.
There are thousands of industry people of all walks who care passionately about what they represent. They follow the tradition of long hours to earn a modest living doing what they enjoy. I don't see that going away any time soon. Companies with solid infrastructure, well established world markets and superior products will last through worse than some tough times, others wont.
There may be some good to come out of it, such as better products at lower prices. Yes, when the robber-baron's realize the money-printing gig is up, they'll look for a more lucrative scam. There are only a very few in this business that take home more than a working man's salary and those that do for the most part, have earned it.
I acknowledge the mentioned challenges and well written apocalypse scenarios above, but its pretty damn early to be writing final chapters for an industry made up of some tough and talented individuals. When the economy begins to sort itself out, there may be a slightly smaller but stronger industry revealed, having gone through a difficult period. Tough times ahead and some changes? Absolutely. The end of high-end audio? Not a chance.
Grant
Shunyata |
I suspect that voodoo claims and marketing is much to blame. After all, high end is synonymous with very expensive highly marked up but ordinary wires - how can high end ever expect to be taken seriously. Only cranks are going to buy 3/4 of an inch thick speaker wires and place them on electrical utility transmission cable ceramic isolators...credibility is a huge issue for high end. |
Marketing efforts are applied to enterprises that suggest a strong future with aggressive growth potential. No well-endowed corporation will view high end audio that way. As John our prophet said, "The dream is over".
There is a chauvinism on display here in the stubborn insistence that hope exists for the audio we knew to somehow rally and make the encore real. It can't. The encore is in your minds. You are rowing upstream. When I stated earlier that the high end was hanging on by its fingernails, I was referring to you diehards who refuse to acknowledge what you know in your hearts to be true. The string has played out. There is nothing left but the mourning. That's what Saint Ronnie said. "It's mourning in America". He set this up. He knew it was coming. Of course, he probably never was aware of anything as trivial as our hobby but he did set us off in the direction that finished us off. It's not too late to name a speaker after him. |
Interesting thread! The number of well-thought responses indicates true passion for our hobby. I'll chime in with a few thoughts.
- I believe that there is NO short-term answer/fix to the dilemna the industry is currently facing. The combination of a miserable economy combined with the younger generations' apathy towards quality sound is the equivalent of a KO delivered by Mike Tyson (in his prime!).
- It isn't just the gear that's doing poorly, I read somewhere recently that the overall sales of music is worse than ever. Downloading music isn't the only reason but it's a big part of it. From reading other info from the other music sites I hang out at, I know for a fact that the average music artist doesn't consider CD's as a source of income anymore. This is key. The artists that make them consider them to be promotional tools for their live performances, some don't see them as anything more than a replacement for a business card! And this from the average artist that's kinda/sorta making it, I've read blogs from other very talented musicians stating that the financial bottom line of making a CD is so daunting that they don't think they'll be releasing any new music! While we, as gear lovers, are lamenting the state of the audio equipment industry, I think as music lovers, the situation is even MORE alarming.
- The saving of this industry lies with the ability to get the younger listeners on board, period. If this isn't done, 10-20 yrs from now people will be recalling THIS time as the 'good ol' days'. Obviously, before an interest in gear can be cultivated, an interest in music has to exist. When I was a kid, I HAD to go to glee club, music history was taught in my elementary school in the south Bronx. Opera, Classical, broadway plays were basically forced upon us and while I didn't particularly care for this stuff when I was a kid, I couldn't be more thankful for this now. The Arts must be re-instated in all schools at the elementary school levels.
- It was mentioned previously about how the industry is basically selling to the same customers on a rotational basis. This industry has never been able to figure out how to properly market itself. The question's been asked so many times over the years that I wonder if there's truly an answer. One thing that I've always wondered was why I never saw much advertising for gear in music magazines. Whenever I'd see an ad it would be this tiny unobtrusive thing in the back of the mag that probably only caught the eyes of people who were already into audio. If that was the goal, than mission accomplished. I think the bar nees to be set higher, way higher. I understand advertising costs vs. the economy but there's another thread ('twins' I think) showing how many famous audio companies are actually owned by a larger conglomerate. Hard to believe that some of those companies can't have larger advertising budgets than they do. Going back to my original point about ad placement, I would go where the music-lovers go, to the music magazines (perhaps ads in mags like Hightimes wouldn't be such a bad idea!).
- Lastly, I'd be interested in hearing about how the industry's doing in place other than the U.S. A few years ago, while in Italy, I bought an Italian audio mag out of curiosity and was struck by the preponderance of audio manufacturers there,companies I'd never heard of. England always seemed to have a greater awareness of audio and also has quite a few manufacturers and the orient also seemed to have quite a fever for audio. I understand that we face a world-wide economy crisis but I still wonder about the status of audio worldwide. |
I'm not ready to retire or die anytime soon nor are the people purchasing ipods. People will always listen to music and "audio". If you look at what computer gamers are doing with computers, displays and sound you'd see many, many parallels to High End Audio. Those people are all about upgrades, performance, sound and the "experience." BTW- I think "High End Audio" needs to be rebranded.
The days of sitting in front of two speakers listening to an album may be over (for a generation) but younger people are interested in sound. You just need to know where to look and how to connect. Are they going to purchase a huge two channel rig right up front, no; but if you wrap it with products that make sense you can get people to move along a continuum.
Every kid who buys a computer with a set of speakers should be a target. Every youth who uses a computer (and vinyl) to Dj should be a target. Good DJs are crazy hot now. Why do you think big tobacco recruits them? Everyone who upgrades their car stereo at the time of purchase is a target. I've noticed that all car manufactures offer top tier audio systems and people opt for them. These are conscious decisions based upon perceived use and value. |
Actually,, I think high end audio is better than ever for serious audio consumers in general.
Those who are not serious about there sound or audio manage to still get by just fine these days also.
I don't doub't many vendors are having trouble, but I have to believe the truly robust ones are still getting by and making a decent living, even if the economy is not going full throttle as it was a few years ago before the brakes were suddenly and unexpectedly applied as a result of bad business practices which helped fuel the beast. |
Perhaps this years RMAF will give us a barometer on the health of the high end industry. This show as opposed to the monolithic mega shows which encompass's the entire industry as whole. The RMAF is geared toward the music fanatic and high end gear, which is more in keeping with what we are trying to get a pulse on. It would be very interesting to see the demographics on this show and speak with the attendees and vendors to get their input.
While I do believe the high end industry is on life support, there remains many business's and manufacturers holding their own quite nicely. While it may be bleak indeed, it would be premature in my opinion to post the RIP on the headstone just yet. High End will always be around although the landscape will come to be leaner and the dealer base will no doubt shrink. But that may be a good thing. Get the pretenders out of the way, so we have only the contenders that know what they are doing on both sides of the fence. |
Macro: Certainly, reality has a way of messing up our plans. There is truth in your point that "the stereo biz" is a product of baby boomers (or even earlier generations), and is indeed aging and dying off. Ironically, the general availability of music playback may have created a generation who takes it for granted; our job is to show them that music can sound better than the 'podders would believe possible. At least in my view.
John: Rather a bleak forecast, but there are many reasons why one could believe that's possible. Certainly, there will be major changes in the way business is done.
Thanks for your input, gents! |
Quote:
May, 2010:
Movie Gallery closes 1,906 Movie Gallery, Hollywood Video and Game Crazy stores. Over 19,000 jobs are lost.
The closing of Movie Gallery had nothing to do with the economy. They lost for 2 reasons:
1. They drasticly over extended themselves with the Hollywood Video purchase
2. On-demand, NETFLIX and cheep videos at mass merchandisers |
Johnk - I see our market turning inward with an emphasis on recycled treasures as widow upon widow cycles big rigs back into circulation. The few of us who are still buying will mine that resource. Many will do nothing because they cannot reclaim the funds they have in their current holdings.
Much of the most vaunted gear will go off shore where better economic policies have protected their consumers. Starting in January, we are doomed. Tea, anyone? |
I see a future where larger manufacture are near nonexistent that only small factory direct will have a chance to survive. If one can not go into a holding pattern to wait this out. They will go under. |
High end audio is hanging on by its fingernails. Momentum and the tenacity of old coots is all that keeps it going at all. Many of our manufacturers will be following Richard Brown, Terry Cain and Jim Theil within the next decade and our consumer ranks will dwindle along a parallel with them.
I know this is bleak sounding and I'm sure I'll be accused of pessimism but ordinary life expectancy statistics bear me out. As much as we don't want to accept the fact, we aren't young anymore and we are not being replaced by the same ambition, opportunity and excitement that buoyed us through our heyday.
In the 1970s it was fashionable to own a stereo system and the typical middle class household went shopping and bought one. In the go-go 80s, under Reagan and the penny stock surge, high end audio came into being as a separate category. Yuppies arrived on the scene and Krell and BMW became symmetrical status symbols. This trend continued as those of us who really did enjoy the music acquired wealth and applied it to our hobby.
Nowadays, prices have soared due to the need of manufacturers to fish deeper in the same pool with every new model. And many customers have dropped out. We are putting our kids through college or fighting to keep our home or paying 2-3 times as much as we used to for health insurance, or have no health insurance with which to fend off the ravages of couch potato lifestyle. Many of us are broke or have chosen to distribute our shrinking disposable income differently or not at all. Eventually, you come to realize that there are things in your world that matter more than replacing that preamp you've had for 16 months just because something else has bought itself a better review.
It won't be long before most of us read the handwriting on the wall and stop pretending that the good times are coming back. They aren't.
High end audio is one of a few industries that hasn't been completely subsumed by corporate tsunami of the 21st century. Stay tuned.
As an aside that lends perspective to the times we live in, I'm watching the Fourmile Canyon fire in Colorado carefully. I lived there from 1986 to 1997 and my boys were born in our cabin there. Many of my former neighbors are still there and they have been evacuated. I've seen a few of them interviewed on television. They are shaken and they are anxious about whether or not their home is still standing. And they're worried about losing their photos and artifacts and heirlooms. Nobody seems too worried about their bicycles, stereo systems, big screens, RVs, etc. They are grateful that, while 170 homes have burned to the ground and 3500 people were forced to evacuate, there are no serious injuries, no fatalities and no one missing.
Maybe the biggest threat to the high end audio industry in 2010 is the re-ordering of our priorities. |
Paper: good idea, actually heard similar ideas floated. Problem is, as always, time and capital to get it going. Thanks for the thoughts.
Tennis: guess we'll have to wait and see. I wouldn't rule out the draw of hands-on product contact; been to an Apple store lately?
Sebrof: can't we have both? Back in the day when I bought and sold old radios, their elderly owners always made comments like, "it has such wonderful tone", not, "boy it was easy to use". Ease of use should be a minimum acceptable requirement for ALL products, in my admittedly-demanding view.
Geneo: Don't blame Apple. If anything, they've done more to facillitate the widespread enjoyment of music than any company since...who? The Victor Talking Machine Company?
I have two teenagers, understand the gap in understanding. I'm slowly and sneakily getting them interested in the 'pod through the Big Rig (such as it is).
I've met Victor Tiscareno, head of audio at Apple; he's a very bright guy, with a background in the high end. He GETS it. The fact that Apple doesn't see the possibilities in more-upscale audio isn't his fault; it may, however, show a lack of insight on the part of the traditional audio industry.
Mywife: Judging by what I hear from dealers, right now the deal is everything.
Sherpa: Mostly, we're ancient, and that's a big part of the problem. I'm 54, but have two teenagers, as mentioned above. Daughter HAS Beats, and just got the new iPod Touch. Agree completely with your viewpoint. Y'all/we-all are indeed out of touch.
Ballan: "Audiophiles don't make things simple" is a classic of understatement! Thanks for that.
Thanks to all of you for sharing your insights and concerns. Keep 'em coming! |
@Geneoshea: How did Apple "kill high-end audio"? Please explain?
@Mrtennis & Sebrof: There are people who want quality, but they also want simplicity. Audiophiles don't make things simple. That's not a bad thing, but it's not want most people want. |
Respect the past but embrace today. I often read posts on audio sites like Audiogon and think to myself, "How old are these people? My gosh, they think and talk like no one my age and I'm not exactly young." Ya'll need to start thinking in a "Beats By Dr. Dre" mentality (metaphorically speaking). |
Well, the tough times now may be a memory in 5-8 years. I wouldn't call the demise of high-end audio quite yet. There is SO MUCH 10-30K amplifiers and speakers out there now, it's really a prestige arms race as much as it's about sound. Adjusted to inflation, top gear is far more expensive than ever before. If companies slightly lower their standards, and shave off 15-25% of the price of these premium products, they and the dealers may be able to hold on until a recovery emerges. |
Apple killed high-end audio.
Back in the 80's when I went off to college, every kid had or wanted a stereo. In our dorms we were introduced to the various brands. Some of your buddies might have had some exotic gear. I'll never forget helping one guy move his Klipsch speakers. They weighed probably 150 pouns each.
Fast forward 3o years. My 17-year-old who'll be leaving for college next year listens to just about everything on an iPod. I've invited him to check out his music on a real system and he's not interested.
It's not any kind of father-son rift, he just doesn't care. His buddies are all the same way. |
"09-09-10: Papermill
Folks,
I remain convinced, that if a person is given a choice, the will gravitate to quality, high end sound."
I disagree. IMO, most people will gravitate to brands they know, ease of use, flashy bells and whistles every time. Sound is not at the top of the list. The choice for most consumers is between pretty good sound (big box stores) and really good sound (Hi end B&M). It's just not worth the effort to them. |
don't sell the consumer short. necessity is the mother of invention. people can figure out how to configure a stereo system without a dealer's advice.
what happened to experimentation ?
the only issue is who will sell the equipment ?
will it gravitate to direct sales from manufacturers whose overhead is low ?
will brick and mortar stores prosper, grow or diminish in number ?
I think over time brick and mortar stores will represent a smaller market share of audio produtcs, over time.
that is, it is my hypothesis that there will be more direct sales from manufacturers at the expense of audio stores. |
Sherpa: We may both be a trifle naive, but we're thinking along parallel lines. More later.
Loomis: Not going to tell you again that you're correct, but yeah,you are. ;->
Git-tar: Interesting how the CEO of Hollywood Video is now the CEO of Ultimate, no?
Ferrari: we're be hearing from more in the industry in the next entry. I welcome any and all to comment on this thread, as well.
Hifi: Glad to hear it! Good for them!
Mac: way to win friends and influence people, big guy! Sadly, your comments are absolutely accurate. I only wish I'd coined the phrases, "a small band of delusional eccentrics", and "finitum is on the horizon". Great stuff!
Sbr, Mac: Yup, agreed. Now we're back to the question, "What do we do now?"
Thanks to you all for your provocative and insightful comments. |
Folks,
I've read many valid observations. Trends. Economy. Market. etc.
A suggestion.
I remain convinced, that if a person is given a choice, the will gravitate to quality, high end sound. If this is true, then the manner in which the consumer becomes exposed to the possibilities of access and quality needs to addressed.
Since our hobby is one in which "hearing is believing", a new business model needs to be created so that a "brick and mortar" retail store is viable. A key historical model needs to change, and that is the independent retailer.
I might suggest the formation of a High End Association of manufacturers which might invest in superstores. I envision a retail store which has a wide variety of manufacturers with various rooms to audition, mixing and matching COMPETING components.
Inventories would remain at the manufacturers ordered and shipped, much like the current direct sellers do today.
By necessity, the marketing theme should be, getting the most out of your computer/digital libraries. Modern and hip.(Of course, once the customer is in the store, expose them to the magic of vinyl).
If they want to combine with video, send them to BestBuy for the low margin flat screen TV.
From what I understand high end retailers became forced to offer video and installation which actually proved profitable until the crash. In house set up should be a service rendered and charged. How many of us would relish a chance of having a audio expert confirm our setups?
Stores, by necessity, would need to be located in major markets. They might become a destination visit as Sound by Singer might have been. If successful, expand.
Most of us will never attend a HiFi show. This would bring the show us, or at least closer.
We need to tap that group of people that are listening to and enjoying music. Period.
Cost is shared among all of the manufacturers.
The manufactures will need to show some guts and confidence in their products.
The investment in the store will need to be categorized as an element of sales and marketing costs. This will be very difficult, given the lack of effort or resources of the past.
I'm sure this business model has a many holes which I'm too naive to consider.
The key is the INDUSTRY must take responsibility and initiative to keep our love of good sound alive. Unfortunately, egos run rampant in this hobby. Maybe survival will be a motivator.
Just a suggestion. |
People have little disposable income, even things considered necessities in the past are experiencing a slump. The current string of closures for dealers and manufacturers will continue, those that survive will be ones that find ways to adapt to the demands of the new consumer or consolidate the shrinking market for the traditional ones.
I have never set foot in a high-end shop that catered to or brought in young customers new to the hobby. That alone signals much of what is to come. |
I suppose those that offer good service and value are most likely to survive as is generally the case. Its a lot harder to provide good value than it is to provide good sound when cost is not an issue. Natural selection? |
The other shoe has already dropped. It will hit the floor soon.
We are a small band of delusional eccentrics and our numbers have been declining for at least 15 years. At this point the industry survives by selling new models to the same audience ad infinitum. However, finitum is on the horizon and the same old crop of patrons is aging, losing hearing, losing interest, bankrupting, changing focus and declaring that enough is enough.
Everything has its time and audio's time is passed. We can still enjoy what we have and, if interested, avail ourselves of the impending used equipment glut.
No use crying over spoiled milk. It was fun and it can continue to be fun. Just don't look for the good ole days to return. That's all over. |
I'm not speaking on behalf of a dealer but Brooks Berdan of Brooks Berdan LTD. in So. Calif. is actually in the process of expanding his store. They are nearly doubling their floorspace, adding among other things, several additional sound rooms and a large museum of vintage, classic gear. So it appears one store is doin something right. |
A lot of good responses here. However the State Of The Union so to apeak rests with the dealers and manufacturers. I would like to hear from some of them in this thread such as Al Goodwin of Goodwins High End, Larry Weinstein of Hollywood Sound, Galen Carol, Gene Rubin, Audio Consultants, Hawthorne Stereo and some others I may have missed. Over the 53 years of doing buiness in this hobby I have done business with all of them and continue to do so, so that says a lot to me, with what they have to offer.
On the manufacturing side input from Nelson Pass, Keith Johnson, John Curl, Conrad Johnson, Paul McGowan, Coda or any high end manufacturer that could contribute.
Many times in this post we have taken a broad swipe on the folks that deliver the end product to the market place.
It is my hope that some of those folks will chime in and give us their opinion of the State Of The Union so to speak.
Lets face it we are all in the same boat and it must be rowed in the direction ot mutual benefit. If not then this endeavour will be on serious life support for a very long time. |
And Ultimate Electronics before that.
Great thread. A huge paradigm shift is needed, or the blood letting will continue.
I know many dealers who are thriving. However, they have embraced new media and distribution, and provide systems centered around such.
Peace,
Lee |
on a certain level, it's hard to conjure up any sympathy for an industry which is so out of touch with customer needs and desires. mainstream manufacturers and retailers continue to foist big, complex, aesthetically unpleasing components on a buying public which overwhelmingly wants portability, ease of use and sleek design. it's sorta like how gm kept trotting out expensive, gas-guzzling trucks in the teeth of demand for small, fuel-efficient cars. whatever your opinion of bose products, at least they are oriented to consumers' tastes, and i suspect they and other design-oriented manufacturers will be among the few to survive the apocalypse. |
I've been proposing a not so unique idea to several of my audio buddies. Since most high-end audio companies are small independent shops, their ability to move their interests beyond the basic business struggles is almost non existent.
My suggestion is to create a high end audio association that represents the interests of this industry. I know that CEA and other associations are supposed to represent our interests but let's face it; we're a small group without much influence on key strategic industry issues.
My experience working on issues of this nature at a national level has shown me that you can improve the position of small cottage industries but you need a broader, more coherent voice to do it. I'd certainly help to set up an initiative of this nature.
The benefits of creating such an organization are many- influencing policy at several levels of industry and government, creating relationships with non traditional business partners that increase opportunities, resources, and exposure and helping with basic business essentials and benefit packages.
I know Im making this sound all rosy. Its not. There would be many, many tough issues to decide and not everyones needs could be met. But I see a big upside. Besides, whats the biggest risk? It doesnt work? That doesnt seem like a risk to me given the state of the industry.
Go ahead and beat me up but I see something of vaule in this idea. |
Tennis: I'm not disputing your premise. I will say that consumers, myself included, can learn a fair amount about a product. Is that knowledge equal to what a good dealer knows about a product through his relationship with and communication from a manufacturer? If it is, then you need to go to another dealer.
Margins are traditionally set up to allow the dealer a little wiggle-room, while maintaining adequate service and sales personnel and facilities.Even then, many folks complain that dealer mark-ups are too high. If a dealer heavily discounts every piece he sells, there's no way that he can maintain a high quality of service and still stay in business. Anyone who has ever run a business, and especially a retail business, knows that their customers are only aware of a fraction of the costs involved in running a business.
In my experience, most well-established dealers have some sort of try-at-home. The problem, of course, comes with guys who try to sample every audiophile flavor of the month using such programs.
Obviously, I believe that there is a place for internet sales of gear. I also believe that the service, advice and set-up provided by a good dealer is worth more than a simple box-handler.
I know and respect a number of dealers, both brick and mortar and inernet, who have more experience and insight than I will ever have the patience to accumulate. They are also able to do things of which I am physically or temperamentally incapable. Is not the workman worthy of his wage?
Grant: largely agreed. The value of a good dealer is generally worth whatever cost-differential there is in the initial purchase. As I said, there are good guys both b&m and virtual, and you're right, there are bad guys everywhere, too.
The point that becomes very clear in these discussions is that there is a widespread perception that anyone who charges enough to make his business sustainable, is a crook. In order for a dealer or manufacturer to survive, pricing has to be sufficient to cover worst-case scenaria: what happens if the economy suddenly tanks and my sales fall off 50% and half my dealers disappear? Don't laugh; that's the situation a lot of folks are in right this minute. Without reserves, those folks would simply be gone. POOF.
Does that mean all survivors are crooks? Of course not. I'm neither a socialist nor a corporation-coddler, but businesses in this country cannot win. No matter how great the product, service, price, whatever a business provides, a good chunk of humanity will find fault with their actions. I applaud the people who take risks, invent things, buy stocks of merchandise, deal with cranky customers every day. Y'all have more patience than I have.
Pure: Had I gone into Tweeter, that would have dragged in Sound Advice and all the other chains Tweeter absorbed. Point taken, but my piece was already pretty long.
I agree that our present structure tends to shut out non-tech-geek music lovers. In the past, that's where the dealer came in, to explain benefits, guide, and set up gear. As we have become more of an "in-group", the folks who just want to enjoy music in their home have suffered. And that's a shame.
Thanks to all for your comments. |
