I love the way Doug Schneider (an experienced hard bitten high end reviewer) seems genuinely shocked about the high sound quality of a system coming in for under $1000.
Here’s a quick taster of Doug article or you can simply use the link above to read it in its entirety.
"In the last few years I’ve reviewed some very expensive hi-fi gear (all prices in USD): Constellation Audio’s Revelation Taurus Mono amps ($40,000/pair) and Revelation Pictor preamplifier with optional DC filter ($23,000); EMM Labs’ DA2 Reference digital-to-analog converter ($25,000); Muraudio’s SP1 speakers ($14,700/pair) -- and, still to come EMM Labs’ Pre preamplifier ($25,000) and MTRX2 monoblock ($85,000/pair).
--
In short, no audiophile of average income is going to spend $25,000 on a preamp -- but they’re happy to be entertained by reading a review of that preamp. More likely, they’ll be looking for something that costs a lot less -- something for way under $10,000, and perhaps under $2000 or even $1000. It’s reviews of affordable products like these that get read much more often than reviews of most expensive items, as is seen in our statistics. And the average music lover would rather go even lower -- say, an entire system for less than $1000. This is what “normal” folks can actually afford and are willing to spend on hi-fi gear.
---
But you might be wondering if it’s even possible, in this era of accelerating price increases for high-end audio, to assemble a good hi-fi system for under a grand.
---
I was able to assemble a surprisingly complete, feature-rich, expandable, shockingly good-sounding hi-fi rig with a total US retail price of only $926.95. Its sound is good enough that I think many people would enjoy it -- not only plain ol’ music lovers who just want something that sounds great, but budget-conscious audiophiles as well"
My only concern with this system would be that it’s not full bandwith. As Doug says, it only goes down to about 50Hz.
For me it goes without saying that its almost crying out for better loudspeakers but this article certainly does make me question the relationship between high priced and high end audio.
For music lovers it’s just got to be a great thing to know that high end (near state of the art) sound is well within the reach of almost anyone!
Now, I grant you that you’re not going to get anything exotic as far as this system goes, as far bona-fide high-end goes, but this will probably be better than a Crosley All-In-One Record Player (which is why would you consider buying one of those in the first place).
Nothing fancy, and kept it completely simple. And notice, no automation on the turntable either -- completely manual (a Technics SL-1800 MkII is really nothing more than a Technics SL-1200 MkII, but with a prettier shell, and a more attractive top face plate).
And the Phono Cartridge/Stylus and CD Player are brand new too.
This is not a pure high-end system by any means, and is considered mid-fi at best, but definitely better than ANY "all in one" rack you can buy right now.
And check this out, you will have a three-way speaker system you can place directly near a rear wall, a reasonably powerful amplifier to drive them with, with a very good phono stage, and is Dual Mono as well, a wickedly good phono cartridge that has a reputation of showing up phono carts that are up to three times it price tag, and a brand new in the box CD Player (which you can upgrade later on by adding an DAC’s and you can then turn your CD Player into a High-End/High Performance Transport), all for less than $1,000.00.
Take some time out, visit some stores/salons that specialize in high quality, but well cared for vintage gear, shop here at Audiogon (if you still can), and you’ll always be surprised at what you can find at e-Bay.
wtf, I’ve got the Musical Fidelity V90 DAC in my listening room setup (Rogue Sphinx and Magnepan 0.7s). I like it but assumed it was the weakest link in the group and just auditioned it against a Simaudio Moon 230 HAD, using the same amp and speakers at my dealer. A little better, but not for $1,500 vs. $300 for the MF. I think the source is gaining in importance with digital streaming.
which is kind of the OP’s point. You can always fine some piece of kit that does something a little better, but at what price? I’ll keep auditioning DACs.
I rather enjoy articles like this .. thanks for the link. About 5 years ago I wanted to put together a cheap but listenable system for work and ended up with this system for the whopping price of $745:
$100 - Pioneer SP-BS22-LR
$100 - Dayton Audio DTA-120
$300 - Musical Fidelity VDAC
$100 - Apple TV2
$120 - Dell monitor
$ 25 - Monoprice cables
The DAC, ATV2, and monitor were in storage and the prices are what I paid at the time. This little system sounds a whole lot better than I expected. Is it "audiophile approved"? Of course not, but you can’t imagine how many people (non-audiophiles) have commented about the sound quality. In fact, some have asked me to help them put together a similar system. Makes me smile.
BS! I don’t understand people that make unrealistic claims, maybe they are just looking to get a rise out of people. The title is way off base, it should have read “decent sounding system on the cheap” then it would make more sense.
This is is no different than creating a thread: “what $1000 cars perform better than a $100,000 Porsche”.
I’m over the $1000 mark with some usher S520 the REL ht1205 which sounds amazing with music and HT. Running an onkyo avr with he made cables. I think I’m around $1500 and am amazed every time I listen. I’ve heard high end speakers during store demos i.e. focal, b and w, Martin Logan, mcintosh, nordost, with fully treated rooms and some of my friends set ups. I and they agree this system is truly amazing for the price.
First, I auditioned Atoms a few years ago and really liked them. I expect the NAD amp drives them fine.
But I bet my living room setup sounds better and still makes budget: Teac AH01 integrated amp with built-in DAC; Magnepan MMGW speakers, Martin Logan Dynamo 300 subwoofer, Apple TV for streaming, TOSLINK cable, standard speaker wire. It’s been three or four years, but as I recall the total paid was around $950, all new but only the Magnepans and ATV for list retail price.
I think Class D amplification has significantly changed the value equation, small speakers are improved, while streaming and DACs get better and better. High end? Hard to say. But yeah, I think the OP makes a good point.
JBL Studio 530 speakers, Emotiva mini 50 watt amp, a schiit DAC, and a chromecast audio will embarrass a lot of higher end systems. The Studio 530s are the real deal.
This would not be exactly high-end but not too bad. -computer HP Pavilion $300 or so. - Oppo dac/headphone amp $300 or so. - Grado RS1 headphones $700. - Audioquest cable $90. A little over $1k, sorry can't do for less new.
Requirements: one integrated amp, one CD player, one pair of speakers. $1K ÷ 3 = $333.33 per component. I am unaware of any of these components at this price that qualifies as "High End". NO!
.. Or you can go to a high end shop in Morton Grove, IL where I visited recently and be shown some very high end cables for $30,000. Most of us who aren’t drug dealers, anesthesiologists and hedge fund operaters can’t afford that.
Uber, are you high? This thread is not about “satisfactory sound” or even “good sound.” Those words themselves are completely subjective and mean very little. What’s satisfactory sound for you I’m quite certain is not satisfactory for me. No offense intended. This thread is about getting “high end sound” for under a grand. Which as we are finding out is also highly subjective. We still don’t agree what high end sound even means. It’s strictly an audiophile dream to be able to get say 90% of the high end sound for 1/10 the money. Keep dreamin’, baby! How can you get very close to something that you don’t even know what it is?! 😛
Huh? Let’s get real for a second. A housand smackeroos won’t even get you decent room treatment. Hell, the Franck Tchang tiny little bowls alone will set you back at least two grand. Tube traps another grand or two. Isolation another couple of grand. High end fuses, another 500 bucks or whatever. Cut me some slack, Jack.
I tried for the best sound I could get in the smallest package and ended up with Silverline Minuet Supremes, PSAudio Sprout 100, and a teeny REL sub — the T7. Cables were whatever I had in my stash box, Kimber PBJ and the like. My source is my Oppo 205 or USB from my laptop. Both do Roon and Tidal. The Sprout does Bluetooth, analog and optical in, and MM vinyl as well. This is not a sub-$1000 system but it’s tiny and sounds amazingly good for a mini-system! If you buy used and hook up a cheaper disk spinner or none at all, this would be a sub-$2000 system.
This is a debate on the law of diminishing returns. Of course the threshold is different from one person to the next, based on their perception and system functionality requirements.
In the last year, I embarked on a similar quest: to assemble a system (I despise the term “rig”) that hits the above sweet spot for my needs. In my case this was to play only vinyl, in a small-ish room over loudspeakers.
I ended up spending about $2000 on vintage electronics (a Technics SL-1700mk2 that I restored myself, Audio-Technica VM540ML cartridge and bi-amped setup with NAD 3225PE handling the low end and NAD 3020i handling the mid/highs), but my speakers are a late model Energy Reference Connoisseur model.
For me, to reach that sought-after point of diminishing returns, I had to double the $1000 threshold. That said, it comes down to being in the right place at the right time for vintage gear.
Used NHT SB2s $160 New ONKYO c7030 CD player $155 Creek 4140s2. $600 Total $915
High end? Probably not. But it sure beats a Magnavox. I believe it gives me 85% of what a bookshelf Spendor/ Neat,/ PCM/ Monitor Audio + Exposure/ Outlaw/ Naim system would offer for a guy who doesn't make more than low to mid 5 digits a year.
I have a fairly low-priced system I'm running that consists of a pair of Elac Debut B-6's I got for $180 on an Amazon Prime open box sale.I have it hooked up to an older Denon AVR I bought back in the day Circuit City was in business. It was a $500 dollar receiver I got open box for $250. I still have my first Sony Blu-Ray player I bought in about 2006 or 7 for $280 and I play my CD's on it and it never, ever skips. I have all this hooked up yo a Vizio 39 inch 1080 flatscreen and ran thru a smart blu-ray refurbished sony so I can stream netflix, amazon prime and you tube off the net. All in all, it sounds pretty good for what I have in it.
My third system is an old nad 7020 receiver in very good condition and a pair of similar 80s vintage Boston A40 speakers also recently refoamed and working great. The sound is very high end. Cost on ebay if found would be under $200 most likely.
I have a pair of B&W cdm2se speakers that I got used on eBay for $330 shipped with an Arcam integrated I’ve had for a long time but sells on eBay for $150. The system sounds great. I tried the speakers in my main system and they’re lacking a lot compared to my Nautilus 801’s but they’re still really, really good. The little Arcam is great for low power systems. So.. I think you can do really well for $500-600.
$1000 is enough for a Chord mojo Dac and very good quality phones. Add high quality music streaming off some existing device of choice and you are in the upper echelons of sound at least via headphones.
Otherwise, perhaps in a smaller room you might concoct an amp and speakers that might compete soundwise with "high end sound" if set up right.
Punt on bass below 50 hz or so and even easier.
The bigger the room and the more extended the bass desired the lower the chances.
Buying second hand smartly makes things much easier as well.
Well, I’ve tried out high end stuff and my criteria is to achieve a very believable presentation, comparable to the local symphony I’ve been attending for several years. Last Spring I set up a small 2.1 system in the bedroom that accomplishes that within an inch of my bigger system. I chose the Emotiva TA-100, which is a little more powerful than the NAD for the same price, a pair of Elac B6’s and a Chromecast just as the author described. I bought a used Element sub. The B6’s just didn’t do it for me, so I tried Monitor Audio Bronze one’s. Better, and I was happy until I picked up a pair of used Boston Acoustics CR85’s and they sound great. So yeah, if you aren’t hung up on esoteric brands, Really good sound can be had for a grand.
@roberjerman, this is not specifically about hunting for once in a lifetime bargains but more about the opinions of Doug Schneider as posted in the link above. Although he is familiar with some very expensive (sota?) audio gear he nonetheless seemed shocked with the performance he got out this $926.95 system which he happened to assemble by chance.
You may agree or disagree with his opinions but I think it's well worth reading if for nothing else than food for thought. So here's the link again -
What are people smoking these days? High End system for $1K! Maybe a lucky GW find from a dead audiophile! It's possible - I bought a pair of Heresy's there for $25!
Both my second and third systems come in a hair under/over $1000 ($990&$1026). Are they HEA? Who cares.... Do I thoroughly enjoy the music that plays through them? Heck yes! Both have integrated amps with built in DAC and headphone amps. One has a tt, the other has a nak cassette One has small floorstanding speakers, the other decent bookshelf speakers.
Am I happy with both?
Heck yes!
Are they perfect and need nothing more? Of course not!
I can understand some wil not like the amp or speakers chosen for this article but point is there are components out there the average person can buy and get a decent system for around $1000. As he pointed out their statistics show more people are interested in reviews of modest priced gear which is the average buyer. He mentioned at the end how he will look for a TT and see what he can put together for about $1200 perhaps swtiching speakers or amps as well while adding a different source. Yeah I can start adding $$$ and come up with something better but that isn't the point , stay withn say $1000-1500 which is what most people would spend, read the article again that's what this is about not what I would like but what this average buyer can get for that amount. Those who spend 5 figures or more on their systems are not the majority but a very small subset of the population. I think it was a great article.
Although I think the system he put forth doesn’t exactly meet the mark on several levels, I find the spike in HEA pricing over the past 5 years especially ridiculous. There’s a paucity of actual improvement in performance. So much of the change in components has been to the aesthetic. All this talk about spending $25K, $50K, $100K, or even $300K on a system doesn’t yield any better sound than a well-thought out, well-crafted system costing a fraction of those numbers
I just read the link. I have to say that there is a fair amount of hyperbole here. The speakers are the Paradigm Atoms. I had bought a pair of these about 8 years ago to use for background listening in my office, driven by a Denon AVR . It was fine during working hours, when I had the system playing barely to the threshold of audibility, but when I was in the office working at oddball times and turned it up to just moderate levels, it frankly sounded bad. The music was muffled, no bass or highs, and I certainly wouldn’t describe the midrange as rich. At one point I replaced the Atoms with an entry level B&W speakers that I was using as rears in a 5.1 System at home, during a remodeling phase at home when the rears had to be removed temporarily. I think the B&Ws cost at least double the Atoms but wow, what a difference in sound! That was one of the most dramatic illustrations to me of how a relatively small increase in outlay could result in a huge performance upgrade. Without used components, at that price point I just don’t think a decent system could be had. Perhaps if there are some decent sounding Active speakers to be had in the $500 range that cover the DAC and amplification , leaving the rest for a source and cables, but I’m not holding my breath
Same here, my speakers alone cost 2k used! However for a CD player or headphone system it's certainly possible. Unless of course you don't consider stuff like Sennheiser HD 600s / Grado woodies high end.
So, as often is the case with audiophiles, it is only a matter of opinion what can be considered high end. Almost 50+ years later some still consider LS3/5s, or going back even further Quad ESL 57s as being near state of the art in terms of sound quality. I've never heard the 3/5s but can testify that on Opera (with the right recording) at least, the 57s could make the male vocalist sound reach out and touch focused.
Unfortunately for me, they didn't do so well with Springsteen. Perhaps they didn't get on with my Naim setup at that time, or maybe the room etc.
Anyway, the point is that if we want to use ultimate reference points then it's a good idea to get acquainted with what is possible with state of the art sound quality.
As Doug Schneider discovered, it can be a lot cheaper to get close to it than you might think.
Interesting post, and a corrective to the thread about how much one has to spend to be considered HE. There are a few variables that would figure in the ultimate price. For example, if you don’tlisten to vinyl, as I don’t, then no budget needs to be spent there. If the end user wants a full feature setup, analog, computer audio, SACD, etc. then without buying used equipment that becomes a very challenging price limit. Then there is the questions of room size ( speakers for a small room won’t do well in larger spaces) and headphones. Ultimately the question becomes price vs performance, with the eternal question being at what point does extra cost result in barely perceptible increase in performance. That point will be different for everyone, but for me it’s surely well north of 1 grand
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
