The Emperor Has No Clothes!!
Read a post the other day where someone characterized a server/streamer as “sweet and tube-like sounding”. It read like a parody. Am thinking of starting a company based on tube rectified power supply for network switch. Crowd funding?
Differing performance between unwashed vs. washed cars would result from effects of turbulent vs. laminar flow. Which is better: environmentally- and/or behaviorally-dependent. It’s elementary, my dear Watson. There’s a lesson for how this translates to hifi playback, I just haven’t spent enough to know what it is yet. |
If you are convinced you can hear a difference under normal listening conditions, that's one thing. If you can show there's a measurable difference that is well established to be enough to be detectable, that's a more interesting thing. If you can repeatedly convince others who are skeptical that you can hear a difference under normal conditions that is unmeasurable or measurable but well established to be inaudible, then that's a VERY interesting thing. Interesting things sometimes happen. VERY interesting things are extremely rare, and science and knowledge moves forward when we encounter those and investigate. |
This is a jaded bunch. It seems many of you have not had the pleasure of experiencing a well tuned, high end system. Brick & Mortar stores are scarce these days and even then finding a well done set up is rare. Visiting an Axpona is a great way to experience audio systems. Even there, out of the dozens of rooms I visited only a couple of systems stood out for me- and not the most expensive systems. Even if out of reach, hearing a well done high end system can be an inspiration- like watching pro golfers play. Then one can get a sense of what is possible. The first rule of audio: Your system sounds great until you hear something better. The OP’s system, for example. That is a nice stereo (your cat acts like he owns the place) and a beautiful room. But that wall of glass destroys the sound- only that room looks so good I don’t think I could change a thing in there myself. It’s an example of the compromises we have to make. Still, it is likely difficult to distinguish subtle changes in that room. The room is the most important component in a stereo system. Think about standing on the end of a long dock on a lake. Drop a pebble. See the nice, perfect concentric rings the waves make where the pebble fell into the water? Now drop a pebble in a small container of water. The concentric rings reflect off the sides of the container and the ripples quickly become a lot of hash. That is what is happening in a listening room. Room design and room treatments absorb those reflections or redirects them to make the room seem more like a lake than a small container. Some heavy drapes would help that room a lot but there goes the view. And one other thing- leaving a car dirty does harm to the paint. I just cringed when I read that. Automatic car washes are not good for the paint either. Nothing like a sponge, mild soap and a bucket of cold water. I bought my first new car in 1980. I washed it by hand regularly. Everyone said I would soon tire of that. I never have. |
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Confirmation bias. Of course. I was at a dealer and he was switching between 2 DAC’s. I was amazed how he was so superlative about the difference. To my ears one sounded different from the other, but both sounded terrible. A bad setup? Going to AXPONA, perhaps 3 systems seemed at all musical, but each had their quirks. Still, this isn’t PA. Yet think of another psychological principal - Scarcity. If rare or expensive it must be better. The Apple 9 dollar dongle DAC is likely just as good as any similar device but e we won’t believe that. Also. Music is practically free! Listen to more music to try and learn what you enjoy. |
Ever wonder how we see black on a white projection screen? You could say it is confirmation bias. The brighter the projector and the darker the room, the blacker blacks look on the screen, The white screen has become the darkest surface in the room. We can listen to music on an AM car radio (back in the day, the 1960s) and appreciate the song even through the static. FM radio in the 70s sounded much better- confirmation bias? Sure it was but powerful enough to leave AM radio in the dust. Same with the growth of cassettes in cars and then CDs. Our senses are comparative. Confirmation bias is a part of life. Embrace it. It’s not a bad thing. When your system sounds better, enjoy it. Wondering if the expense of a new gadget is worth it? Put the old gadget back in. If the old gadget sounds as good as the new one, great. Save yourself some money. But why treat people with disdain for enjoying their systems? “Illogical”, says Mr. Spock. Yes, I like the Original series the best. Confirmation bias because that’s what I grew up with? Probably. |
Sometimes it is truly disdain, other times it's in the eye of the beholder - i.e. people take offense when none was intended. Depends on whether it's actually an ad hominem attack or just being presented with a contrary viewpoint. The former is below the belt, the latter should be something that can start a civil conversation.
We can definitely be friends. There's nothing like the chemistry of the TOS crew. |
Yes, by all accounts, the windows in my big rig are supposed to be hugely detrimental. And yes, it’s a gorgeous room, so there’s no way I’m ever covering that view up. But somehow it works really well, perhaps in part due to the upward sloping ceiling, which you can’t see in the pic. When my local dealer at the time - a legendary figure in room setup - delivered the speakers, he was amazed at how good it sounds. Could it sound better? Am quite sure it could. Check out my vintage system - there I’ve installed acoustic ceiling tiles, and it really sings. But if you ever find yourself in Nortgern Virginia, give me a shout. You will be treated to single malt scotch - if you indulge - and I’ll let you judge for yourself. |
Thank you for the invitation and likewise if you are ever around about the Savannah, GA area. I live not too far from there-100 miles from downtown. Hey, we’ve been known to drive down there for dinner- not much else to do in middle Georgia. It’s good to get a fresh set of ears to hear our systems. I stopped listening to my brothers. They’re just jealous. |
Here’s a story for you all regarding the room. I have my listening room which is quite large but has dormers. I had some corner traps and a few absorption panels on the front wall behind the speakers. Now my shop is 30x30 with a drywall ceiling finished in textured spackling. The walls are insulated and covered with perforated Masonite. That makes the shop hemianechoic (mostly). When I sold my Thiel speakers a couple of years back I set them up in the shop with a cheap little bluetooth amp so the buyer could audition them before purchase. The Thiels sounded amazing in the shop. I got sick to my stomach because they sounded so good. This was nuts. My first thought was cancel the sale but the buyer was already on the way. I was ready to move my stereo to the shop until my wife talked me off the ledge. So I went to work on my room. It took me a couple of months, but I got the room to sound much, much better. Mainly I had to work on the sloped ceilings but also put absorbers- bass traps in the dormers. The last issue is signal to noise. The diffusers and absorbers actually helped with that too. Still, if I had room in the shop… |
Most people thinking that their speakers sound at their top optimal S.Q. when they put them in a non dedicated room are delusional by cirscontances or price or ignorance... Not all people had the luxury of an acoustic dedicated room... Not all people had the money to ask an acoustician to build one... Not all people have the time and the knowledge necessary to build one at low cost... I am sorry about these truth facts...😁 No gear sellers will ever say trying to sell you his miraculous product or after selling it to you , that his costly piece of gear especially the speakers need a dedicated room to sound at their top ... I learned that because i had no other choice than to investigate....Nobody said that to me....😁 The knowledgeable will claim at most that room acoustics matter... i read that years ago and decided to experiment ... But in fact acoustics concepts and experiments is the key of audiophile experience, for any system at any price ...The price tags does not matter here ... ( And yes to put the point on the letter (i) a better designed system had a better potential this is a common place fact which not does contradict in any way my point above but confirm it ) But there is a good news hidden in this acoustics inconvenient truth. upgrading the gear is not always the best solution. And modest acoustic change in a living room can pay more than a very costlier possible upgrade...
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Thanks interesting anecdote confirming my experience...
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My wife and I love Savannah! We’ve been collecting art (that sounds so 18th century!) for almost 30 years now, and it started with a getaway to Savannah. We bought a couple pieces from a self-trained French Algerian with a studio in Savannah. We still have and love those pieces, and have added many since. And don’t get me started about the low country food scene there - oh my! I’ve always characterized Savannah as a more genteel version of New Orleans. |
There was some Formula One champion who said his main secret to racing success was "brake management" by which he meant using them as sparingly as possible in order to extend their functional life, and apparently he was a supreme master at doing this. Somewhere in there is a metaphor for trying to restrain oneself when faced with the "embarrassment of riches" that is the modern candy store of audio components. |
an interesting metaphor indeed. I have frequently been accused of not understanding or embracing the digital side of our hobby whenever I point out the server/streamer craziness out there (and don’t get me started on network switches). But I’ve tried to use knowledge and common sense as a restraint. The irony is I’ve been streaming since about 2004 - I invested considerable $ in the original Yamaha Musiccast system: the MCX-1000 server/streamer/DAC, as well as 3 client A10 streamers. I was an audiophile snob, so didn’t want my home computer touching my audio system. But to |
oops, fat fingers: to finish the thought: I finally realized that the Yamaha stuff was great engineering, but a terrible user interface, which was just getting in the way of musical enjoyment. That’s when I moved to Sonos (~2007 maybe?), before moving to Roon a few years ago. The technology is so good, and so simple, I find it easy to stay out of the candy store. |
@mdalton You definitely [accidentally😀 ] struck a nerve even without naming names. I'm in your camp on digital as far as server/streamers/switches not imparting a sound of their own although my Pandora Dac is quite distinguishable from my Mytek Dac which i suppose could be tubes v SS. As for that wall of glass behind your speakers i can see why you don't want to cover that view; however, i have a similar setup with a giant window behind my speakers--the system still sounds good with the window exposed so i'm guessing that wall doesn't influence as much as if the glass were on the side(s) or behind the listening position, but i finally broke down and installed a curtain rod with mechanized drape to cover that window. The difference was quite noticeable and an improvement--sound is fine without it when i want the view (mine's not nearly as nice as yours) but at night i always cover that window and the sound is better--just a thought... |
Single malt is definitely the best room treatment in my experience. Re windows, yes, I know there’s a lot of dogma out there on this, but my experience with my room has been very positive. There’s a youtuber called “Acoustics Insider” I’ve recently run across who provided a potential explanation why, based on absorption rates of different materials. (Bottom line: at lower frequencies, not much difference between glass and drywall; at higher frequencies, bigger differences, but since high frequency is more directional, glass behind speakers doesn’t matter as much.) YMMV, of course.
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Heck guys I wouldn't concern yourselves with "looking silly." Many's the time when I am having a party at my home (my wife's friends usually) and the non-audiophiles gather around to ogle the system that they snicker when they see the "old fashioned" glowing tubes which they assumed had ended along about WW2. Most of them give me a look which seems to say, "Who is the anachronistic old fart?" |
