One of the challenges of building an audio system is trying to make sure that all of the individual components of that system have equivalent and compatible technical specifications. For example, it doesn’t make sense to purchase speakers that are capable of producing sound in the 5Hz to 20kHz range if your amp is only capable of sending audio signals in the 30Hz to 15kHz range to these speakers. Unless, of course, you hope to upgrade your audio system such that it can properly drive these speakers someday.
In my desire to build an audio system that has the proper balance of individual component capabilities I’ve found myself struggling over the choice of a DAC. Basic technical specifications aren’t necessarily applicable here. The foundation of my system is a Woo Audio WA-33 headphone amp and Focal Utopia headphones. My music files consist of standard CD 16bit/44kHz resolution to Hi-Res DSD files. What I’m struggling with is choosing a DAC that would allow me to get the most out of this amp and headphone pairing. From the research I’ve done so far it is clear that the $23k Meridian Audio Ultra DAC would bring out the best of any system it is connected to. But does it make sense to purchase a DAC of this quality (and price) for my humble headphone system? Or would it be more appropriate to get the Chord DAVE (setting the MQA format compatibility issue aside for this discussion)? I’m currently using an Oppo 105D as my DAC and the music sounds pretty decent, but I know my system can sound better.
So I was hoping to get some input from fellow audio enthusiasts out there to make what may be the most important decision of my system build. I’m also looking at getting a PS Audio DirectStream Power Plant 12 to power this system. Anyone out there have any suggestions or thoughts on this issue?
I own the X1 since July 2018. I can say that this is a streamer that you can't only appreciate in terms of timbre and speed, but also for the image and soundstage. The aeration between instruments, the stereophony and the resolution make the listening session become more of an immersive experience. After at least 500 hours of break in and I'm getting more satisfied.
I strongly recommand to use the optical connectivity. Moreover, the optical connection can bridge the signal from the modem electrical circuit (on which a multitude of pollutants can be connected) to a dedicated electrical circuit. A big plus. A simple $100 Cisco switch and $12 adapter makes this possible.
I prefere the one box concept. First, the server inside is totally dedicated to one sigle task, wich is not the case with a computer that runinng multiple processes and services in the background. Second, the integration with the DAC is direct and well designed.
If you want something highly regarded by those who have heard it for a budget price check out the lks mh004. Seems to be an incredible value for what it offers.
I had an opportunity to audition the Ayre QX-5 Twenty DAC/Preamp and was underwhelmed. Next to the Directstream it sounded very very digital to me, with the digital "glaze" imparted to the sound. The Directstream at this point is my number one piece but I’m also auditioning a Rockna and a Metrum Acoustics piece hopefully next week. I’m within the 30 day review period. I DID discover a fairly significant bug in the Directstream (at least the Jr model which is what I initially went for)....for me, when I run the unit directly into my pass labs amp bypassing the Aesthetix Janus preamp I’ve noticed a low level warble when the volume on the Jr goes from 75 to 76. There’s some discussion on the PS Audio web boards about it and its fixed pending the next version of whatever supercedes Redcloud. When I brought it to their attention PS Audio offered to upgrade me to the Directstream Sr at no cost to me which was extraordinary. The rest of my system is very revealing with Thiel 2.4s and Synergistic Research cables throughout. In short, the Directstream is the least digital sounding DAC I've ever heard with great instrumental separation, beautifully layered instruments front to back. To call it a revelation compared to anything else I've heard would be an understatement. I also like the sound of the DCS products I've heard but price-wise those products about a tiny step too far unless I want to end up divorced. I have a dealer hoping I'll hold off on a selection until the new DCS Bartok arrives for me to try.
I've compared my Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC to many, many newer and more expensive DAC's and have yet to be blown away by anything until you get into the 5 digit range (Esoteric K-01X comes to mind).
Give the Ayre a listen and more than likely save yourself a boatload of money. It's still very close to cutting edge to my ears.
I second your choice of the Directstream. I haven't always liked everything PS Audio has done but the Directstream while not entirely unique is simply incredible. Alternatively Meitner, or EMM Dac 2. Directstream units can often be found new for a fraction of their retail price. If you can't find a great deal (I mean 30% off or more) on a new directstream unit go USED and the direcstream jr is also VERY good, perhaps 90% of the Directstream and you may not frankly notice the difference and then there's this clumsy stupid touch screen on the sr...if you don't like touch screens save some money and go for the jr.
For what it’s worth I tried a AR dac8 against my Cullen modified PS audio Dac. The AR was very good, very black background but the Cullen was more lively especially with bass so kept it. 8k vs 2k. Need to try home demo to know...
I just received a PS Audio DirectStream Junior (DSj) and putting it through it's 250 hour burn in. I'm at 72 hours and it sounds amazing! I also like that it is completely upgradable, has the built in bridge, can unfold MQA and can use Roon! The Chord Dave is also FPGA (upgradable), but doesn't do MQA and no bridge so you need another box to do the streaming (be it a computer, Aurender, etc). I still think the DAC in my Esoteric K-05 SACD player is better than the DSj. I'll leave final judgement until after full burn in of the DSj. However, I really don't care, if it isn't better. It still sounds awesome, makes life easier and is future proof. Did I mention that it has auto select input...that is an awesome feature; to-die-for feature for coach potatoes!
Maybe the Dave is better, maybe the Lumin is better. Lets face it though, there are Esoteric and dCS DACs that are in the 40K price range that are also better.
OP ... dont overlook the Schiit stuff: the true multibit players: the Yggdragil or the Gungnir.
dont be fooled by the prices .. they are direct-seller, no stores or middlemen, so sell at about 1/2 price of what a brick and mortar seller would charge.
@slvrsrfr that might be the most confusing logic I've seen on these forums. You thought the Chord Dave was going to be too good, so you bought the more expensive Lumin X1? I'm sure both are amazing (I'm just using the humble Mytek Brooklyn DAC+), I just didn't follow the logic path for choosing the Lumin X1
Thanks for the feedback jfax237. I am enjoying the WA-33 as well. And it’s good to know that a quality DAC will indeed add to my listening pleasure :-)
I’ve gotten some great DAC suggestions. I was originally leaning towards the Chord DAVE but I was concerned that the WA-33 and Focal Utopia cans would not be able to fully render the DAVE’s analog signal. So I was fully expecting people to talk me down from spending so much money for a DAC dedicated to a headphone centric system.
As was noted earlier though, you really need to optimize the quality of your analog signal if you are going to reach the full potential of your audio system. Philosophically, that makes sense to me. Even if my system can’t render the full analog signal it is still rendering what it can, essentially giving me its maximum performance capacity. Which is better than having a DAC that gives you a substandard analog signal that falls short of your system’s rendering capability. Getting us back to the “big DAC decision.” And that is finding the DAC that provides the analog signal at the transition from too much to too little. In other words, buy a DAC that is too good you’re wasting your money, buy a DAC that is not good enough and you’re left unsatisfied.
It would be fun to try all of the DACs that have been suggested. Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to do that. So I’ve decided to error on the high-end side and go with the Lumin X1. What I’m still wrestling with is the choice for the power conditioner. I continue to vacillate between the Audio Magic Oracle and the GigaWatt that was highly recommended by some of the responders.
Hi slvrsrfr. I've had the WA-33 for about a year now, and am a huge fan. I don't just use it as a headphone amp. Often, I use the preamp outs direct to my power amps, and have skipped a separate preamp altogether. For most of the last year, I used a Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, after owning/auditioning many other DACs. It was fantastic and expensive (although less expensive than the Meridian Ultra DAC you're looking at). Recently, very much against my better judgement, I made the jump to the (even more expensive) Lampizator Pacific. Alas, it was worth it! My system (including my headphones) sounds better than ever. Bottom line, I'm sorry to say, is that you'll need to listen to some DACs. The fact that you're limiting yourself to headphones doesn't mean you won't be able to hear the difference.
Thank you for the very informative discussion. As far a DACs go, I'm trying to integrate digital music into my 2 channel Stereo/AV system. Would I benefit from a good AV processor AND an external DAC that can handle the various file types like PCM, DSD, and MQA? Whats the benefit if any of having both? My current system consists of Krell 3 channel amp and Krell Phantom preamp. I've tried plugging my MAC computer headphone jack to the RCA inputs of the Phantom playing Tidal tracks and that only sounds decent. Can I get better with a dedicated DAC and/or processor such as the MX 160. All this is new to me and I'd open for suggestions. Thanks.
Slvrsrfr im not a headphone guy however I think you would be very happy with the Cord Dave dac with headphone input though expensive even used for what it is I would urge you to try it first with your Utopia headphone, Or upgrade the sound quality of your Oppo 105 with trying out the Empirical Syncro Mesh Reclocker which transformed playback of my Modwright Oppo 205 and Denafrips Terminator dac.
If you compare dacs, the ps audio DS dacs are far superior than most of the typical dacs for a number of reasons, IMO of course. i think a dac that uses FPGA technology is the future and both PSA DS dacs use FPGA. A dac that uses a network bridge is the best connection to use compared to USB/toslink/coax. The PSA DS dacs are highly rated along with a couple other dacs that are many times more expensive.
Here is my reasoning for FPGA type dacs: I get a free upgrade to the dac every 6 months that sounds better than the prior release of the code.
The reasoning for your opinion is sound. IMO, the PS Audio DAC will never be the best, and at a certain point the sound has gone downhill with the updates.
Notubes there are a ton of dacs that offer the wamth of vinyl.
The Aquahifi line of dacs do, so does Metrum, Audio Note and many other dacs that are voiced musically.
The Nquist is a lovely dac and we are not saying either one of these dacs is better than the other.
Lumins products are also modular with separate power supplies as well as separate analog and dac boards, if Lumin chooses to their entire product can be upgraded easily.
We sell alot of dacs, lumin, Emm, Light Harmonic, NAIM, Mytek, T plus A, Aurender, Nad, M2 Tech, Cary Audio, and a few others.
Lumin makes an outstanding product that offers outstanding sound quality.
The Nquist is a very good product is it $5k better than the Lumin X1 or is it better at all that is the question.
Considering the X1 just lunched you will have to see one thing Lumin has is outstanding engineering that a division of a fortune 500 company can amply supply.
Check Lumins track record every streamer they have built has received rave reviews and at the time of launch was rated as being one of the best sonding devices at their price point.
Keep in mind you are selling a specific product and I am not.
Your statement that the Nyquist doesn’t include a FGPA architecture is somewhat misleading. FGPA provides for software upgrades only and not hardware. As PS Audio have found out after many software upgrades, there is only so far you can go with manipulating software and as a result PS Audio are now working on a 2 Box solution that will upgrade the hardware.
The Brinkmann Nyquist also includes two completely separate DAC’s ...one for PCM and another for DSD and both are upgradable. Most of the major advances in Digital these days appears to be related to reducing inherent noise created by the incoming AC and the DAC itself.....improved Power Supplies and filtering etc. Herr Brinkman is recognized as fanatical when it comes to quality, noise reduction etc. And even spends time daily listening to the impact of the smallest items, like what kind of screw to use use in a particular application. I have not heard the Lumin so I cannot comment on its ultimate strengths.
However when Robert Harley and other credible reviewers say that for the first time we have a DAC that approach’s the warmth of vinyl, then I think it bares listening to.
Also the Brinkmann Nyquist has a novel headphone approach that is also receiving rave reviews.
I second the Chord Dave. It’s an amazing DAC and has a unique headphone output that will be a nice compliment to your WA33. Contrary to what one user said above, the DAVE doesn’t have a headphone amp. Rather, the DAC itself just has a very high output with a very nice volume attenuation. It wouldn’t replace your WA33 but it you may enjoy the change of pace. It's extraordinarily clean with amazing detail.
Also, whoever told you to sell your WA33 amd get a Mytek Brooklyn should have their head examined. The Brooklyn is a decent (not spectacular) DAC but the headphone amp on it sucks. It is so ridiculously outclassed by your WA33 I’m actually laughing.
In general I would advise against taking these people’s advise, as many of them have no idea what they’re talking about. My advise is get a plane ticket and go visit a city with some real hifi stores. Personally I think the DAVE sounds like what you’re looking for tho. That MSB analog also sounds nice. Also, I wouldn’t make my decision based solely on MQA support, as Mytek fanboys do.
further to my previous post on the Brinkmann Nyquist DAC, you may want to follow the thread below that has followed the Brinkmann for months and has been the recipient of hundreds of comments on the product.
Cheers
Also please note I am not selling anything or representing any brand, simply trying to make a well informed decision that will stand the test of time and technology advancements.
Given the dollar value of the DAC you are considering, the Brinkman Nyquist MK 11 should be at or near the top of your list. It has recently received rave reviews from TAS, Stereophile, HiFi News and Record Reviews, Tone Audio and that was before it was updated to the MK II version.
It has all of the bases covered in terms of specifications and features inc. MQA, streaming and Roon compability and is future proofed via a slide in, slide out, replaceable digital section. It also combines the best of digital and tubes and could be your only DAC. Many high end audiophiles with unlimited funds are saying it sounds better than the Nagra DAC in the $50-$60k range.
I followed the DAC world for a couple of years and finally sprang for the Nyquist about a month ago.
It's possible the Kitsune version of the HoloSpring would sound as good as the $23K DAC and save you $20K. Loving mine, best DAC that I've heard. Check out the reviews at the bottom of the product page... https://kitsunehifi.com/product/springdacgreen/
"I agree. Though I think the new PC-3 SE Evo+ model is sufficiently good for my simple system, hence if I upgrade, I'll most likely go for that model."
I honestly recommend. Earlier I also had a PC-3 Evo.:-)
As has been mentioned, in the price range mentioned most DACs will sound very good. The OP said he wants one that he can keep for years, so he or she might want to look at features. I have a Bryston DAC 3 that has 4 HDMI inputs besides every other connection except Blue Tooth, and it doesn’t do MQA. I use it primarily for the HDMI inputs: 1) to output the DSD from my SACDs using an Oppo 203 as a transport; 2) to connect Apple TV 3) connect a cable box i also use the USB from my MacBook Air which is connected to my NAS. Anyway, just a demonstration of how the features on that DAC are used. They OP may want to evaluate what features are important to them
We have A/B 74 different digital
front ends including Chord Dave, all Aqua Acoustic dacs, Total dac and
basically everything up to 50K. Our conclusion was the Rockna Signature was the
best dac when accompanied with the Rockna WD Net server via i2s connection.
Rockna is the designed by the same designer that worked with MSB, PS Audio and
Goldmund.
Rockna builds 2 dacs, Signature (non balanced version) at $11000 and
Wavedream Edition at $6000 (our 2nd favorite dac). The Rockna WD Net server was the best server we
tested and it retails at $9100 with a 1 TB SSD drive built into the server. Rockna does build fully
balanced dacs but they use twice as many parts and do cost more.
If you are looking for a very knowledgeable
high end store that sells Rockna then I would recommend;
Bob Visintainer
Rhapsody Music and Cinema/Goldmund New York
27 West 24th Street, Suite 506
New York, NY 10010
Website- Rhapsody.audio
212-229-1842
Lots of choices for digital but
after our extensive A/B testing, Rockna was another level above all other
digital products we tested.
Dealer disclaimer, we are the North American distributors for Rockna and other audio products below our signature.
Best I’ve heard is T+A DAC8 DSD and at $4k it’s a relative bargain. I upsample to DSD512 through Roon. I had the DirectStream Dac in house as well and sorry to PS Audio but in my system it wasn’t nearly as good as T+A. It really is an exceptional sounding DAC at any price.
"Re: clean power. I respect PS Audio who make some solid products. In my system I use and have been very happy with the Gigawatt PC-3 SE Evo conditioner which has now been upgraded to the ’plus’ model -http://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/power-line-conditioner-gigawatt-pc-3-se-evo/I wont go over all the detail, suffice to say It is an outstanding product."
"Moving from PS Audio Directstream DAC to Lampizator Golden Gate Balanced, I think you should at least audition any Lampi DAC. They sound amazing. :) "
In Poland Lampizator is subject to total criticism by audiophiles. It is mainly about the unsightly performance of the first models at the beginning of the company's operation. And above all, jealous that someone has succeeded. It is such an ugly Polish feature.
I can’t speak to the Lumin DACs, but their iOS app is outstanding. After trying out several DNLA control points for iOS along with Sonos, the Lumin app easily takes 1st prize (I use it to control a Rasoberry Pi based server running Volumio, which is compatible with the LUMIN app).
Incidentally, Hegel makes some wonderful DACs as well (the HD25 is at your price point)
I really have tried to do my homework for this decision. But as some of you have already pointed out, there are several different technologies that have to be considered. Then you have to consider that the DAC may come with a built-in headphone amp and/or pre-amp of its own.
I ended up choosing the Lumin X1 because it is basically a chip based DAC. The R2R ladder approach, for example, from what I’ve read, requires very precise and balanced sets of resistors. It may just be a misunderstanding on my part, but I’m not all that confident in the resistors maintaining their required performance characteristics over time.
There are other DAC design philosophies, and I’m not going to try to summarize all of them here, but it just seemed that the Lumin design takes a more “tried and true” approach, as opposed to the still evolving FPGA method mentioned by rbstehno earlier (I’m not sure that I want my firmware upgraded every 6 months). In addition, a positive, for me anyway, is that it’s not encumbered with any redundant amps. Another selling point for me is that the Lumin X1 is also a server. Which means I don’t have to buy another computer to act as a front end. An added bonus is that I won’t lose my Audirvana playlists in the event I update the computer’s OS.
Last, but not least, I read nothing but accolades for the Lumin S1. And the the new X1 is expected to be an appreciable improvement to the already impressive S1 performance characteristics.
In the end, however, it simply comes down to what sounds good to you and/or what you’re willing to live with. For me, I’ve come to expect from myself that I will always be looking to move up to something better. As a result, I tend to go straight to the high end these days to avoid the wasted time and expense of getting there incrementally.
Boy , here’s a subject that most will not agree on . Besides you will have to find out for yourself . First I have an Oppo 105, and I don’t use its DAC. I currently run a Schiit Yiggy . So I would audition the Yiggy and 2 others to start . They include the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, the Border Patrol DAC and the Gumby/ Yiggy . All 3 can be had with an in home trial . All three are excellent for the money. And all three are different . Also if your gonna do headphones , audition them with different cans too . Try a Grado, an Audeze and a Seinheiser . Happy Listening , and my the VIBES BE WITH YOU , Mike.
If you compare dacs, the ps audio DS dacs are far superior than most of the typical dacs for a number of reasons, IMO of course. i think a dac that uses FPGA technology is the future and both PSA DS dacs use FPGA. A dac that uses a network bridge is the best connection to use compared to USB/toslink/coax. The PSA DS dacs are highly rated along with a couple other dacs that are many times more expensive.
Here is my reasoning for FPGA type dacs: I get a free upgrade to the dac every 6 months that sounds better than the prior release of the code. When MQA got supported, it was a software upgrade to both the dac and bridge. I have friends with your typical dacs and they are spending thousands to get a card to implement MQA and I don’t know of any dac that can significantly increase the SQ of the dac with just software. Again, just my opinion
At these price levels most of the DACs are state-of-the-art and it's really a preference of choosing the type of sound that you want or which DAC pairs best with the system you have. There is a very real point of diminished returns once we move past the $6000-$8000 price point.
My suggestion would be to try as many DACs as possible and chose the one which sounds best to you. A lot of the DACs mentioned allow you an in-home trial or can be listened to in-home from a good dealer.
You could also check out Denafrips, they have many respected models. And Lessloss, PS Audio and HoloAudio. All these have been mentioned around the forums the last year. I haven't heard them myself but they seems worthy of investigation.
If you are looking for something more like the Meridian then you can check out TotalDac, dCS and MBL.
I have a DAVE and I’ve never heard anything remotely as good. I haven’t auditioned the Meridian but I’ve heard the DAVE compared very favorably to it by those that have. With headphones I use the direct out and it’s wonderful.
I want to thank all of you for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience with me. After following up on pretty much all of your suggestions I thought I should at least share my current direction on this. Well it’s my current direction until someone points out that I’m making a grievous mistake anyway. With that said, my DAC will be the Lumin X1 and, as soon as I can swing it, I will be getting an Audio Magic Oracle power conditioner to go with my Woo Audio WA-33 amp and Focal Utopia headphones. I can’t think of a better way to spend time on my death bed when that eventuality arrives.
The Vitus Signature series dac is analogue sounding & can be ordered as a pure dac without the drive. I own a Vitus SCD-025Mk2 and can personally attest to its sound signature. Build quality is also superb.
DACs had all been developed long time ago. Wheather you pick up today's or prior technology, you won't miss. EAD DSP7000 MK2 is still my favorite. Some vintage 1-bit DLC ones can also kick S of bigger DACs.
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