The best speaker you ever heard?

Everything is relative. For example Quads that still have their grills on sound relatively compressed, bass shy and unresolved compared to the case when the grills have been removed. C'est la vie!

Tbg, you're entitled to your opinion, and clearly you have one, but a properly set up pair of ML CLX speakers disappear, not physically (of course) but you get the idea. For me, newer Quads can do the same thing. Electrostats can't move the same amount of air as a dynamic pair but they CAN create a holographic image in a room. You will certainly not get consensus on this, especially from those who are used to Altecs, but the experience happens nonetheless.

Tbg

Understood completely. Thanks for the clarification. And I will also clarify something just in case it needs clarifying ...

A gathering of data is just that, but with some bit of organization to allow for greater accessibility. In this case orders of magnitude greater accessibility. If one wishes to analyse such data they can then do so much more easily, but any gathering of data such as I proposed would be without analyses, hypotheses, assumptions or judgements related to a consensus. Just organized data.

Hazyj, once in a great while, someone will post something that interests me. But heretofore, it has not been a speaker with anything approaching majority support.

I really see no reason to have audio postings as words cannot convey sounds. So in reality mine is idle curiosity.

It's just a fun thread. Most of us have said we love speakers that we DON'T have. We've all heard THOSE speakers and said, WOW, wish I could afford THOSE.....I've purposely looked for some of the speakers mentioned here. In the end though, I find it interesting to see that some folks have only heard mid fi speakers and some have heard some very high end stuff. it's just kind of interesting seeing where some folks are with their hobby. Again, no right or wrong answers. That's what makes this such a fun thread and why it's been running for so long.

Tbg writes ...

"Hazyj, I don't expect consensus on anything much less speakers. I certainly have no interest in what is most often mentioned or liked by most.consensus."

Clearly the question wasn't meant for you then. Why even waste time answering?

Best speakers I've ever heard are now the FOcal Grand Utopia EMs in my living room. Rod Thomson performed a "Master Set" speaker tuning yesterday and the results took performance levels to a new high. Very impressive what these speakers can do, especially when properly set up in a room. Driven by VAC Statement amps and preamp, Esoteric p-02/D-02, High Fidelity and Hi Diamond cabling. Took years to put together - well worth the brain damage along the way. :-)

Tbg, no as with my S5's they don't need any augmentation in the bottom end. But my Dealer thinks really highly of it. The Torus is not a subwoofer in the traditional meaning. It works differently and is an "infrasonic generator" which improves dynamics and prat. The TAS review is a good read, though I can see from the specs that the Torus has had further development in the last 7 years which is to be expected.

If I owned a pair of Magico S1's or S3's, or panel speakers the Torus would be a no-brainer as it is one of the only, if not the only "sub" which is fast enough to keep up with beryllium and true ribbon drivers, and is a relative high end bargain.

Melbguy1, no I knew nothing about it. Do you have one?

@Tbg, have you read up on the Wilson Benesch Torus? That is fast and is capable of keeping up with ribbon drivers.

Tonykay, I've owned Quads and even double Quads, the early Martin Logan, Accoustech, Infinity ServoStatics, etc. No panel speaker ever vanishes. At best they give you a sensation of listening to the recording studio through two windows to it. Secondly, the Quads, 57s or 63s have no bass and no woofers work with them as none can keep up.

Martin Logan CLX. Once the music started the speakers disappeared, much like Quads.

Hazyj, I don't expect consensus on anything much less speakers. I certainly have no interest in what is most often mentioned or liked by most.consensus.

Has anyone compiled the statistics from this thread yet? If not, would anyone like me to do it? Just a simple table listing the number of votes as favorite speaker as well as the number of times a speaker was mentioned.

10-03-14: Ctsooner
..I've been able to hear most of the speakers in this thread and some are awesome and would make me very happy, but at each price range, I like the Vandy speakers best. The other top speakers I've liked have also been first order covers and time coherent. No smearing that I hear on most other speakers out there regardless of cost.

Cts, speakers with first order crossovers have their limitations, requiring for example significant impedance correction. Also first order crossovers have a lot of overlapping bandwidth, leading to lobing issues/comb filtering, and increased power handling/excursion demands on the drivers. On the upside, there is minimal phase shift, though there is no free lunch here. Vandersteen 7's have a narrow sweet spot and are not easy speakers to setup, hence why they include a laser positioning device and numerous adjustments for the drivers.

Conventional higher order crossovers are also not perfect, however in Magico's case, they use what they call "Elliptical Symmetry Crossover" technology which allows the use of steeper slopes with half the number of parts used in a traditional crossover, enabling Magico to use a simpler, higher quality crossover network. And indeed Soundstage (using the NRC in Canada) and Martin Colloms for Hifi Critic both concluded the S5 has superb measurements.

You mentioned you have heard most of the speakers mentioned in this thread (including presumably the Magico S5), but preferred your Vandersteen Trio's which is fine. I've found the S5 to be a very coherent and well balanced speaker which sounds very smooth, a bit warm and very resolving. It has a slightly more laid back presentation than Q3 which I find allows for long listening sessions without listener fatigue creeping in. The S5 is perfectly phase coherent. Maybe not perfectly time coherent like the Avalon Eidolon Diamond, however I find the overall qualities of the S5 draw me into the music and engage me. The S5's drivers operate in perfect piston motion. Another important consideration is the S3 & S5 are easy to setup and integrate in less than perfect rooms. Coupling of the speaker to the room is a critical factor in how good or bad your system sounds.

I would love to hear the Vandy 7's, though at a starting price of $52k they cost quite a bit more than the S5's. A shootout between the Vandy 5a carbon vs Magico S5 would be interesting and a fair comparison given the Vandy's twin 12" bass drivers vs the S5's twin 10's. I think the S5 would have it over the Vandy in the midrange and top end.

I can see what you guys all hear in SET gear, but I couldn't live with a main system of SET gear. That's my ear. I am pleased to hear that Audio Connections room at the NYC show in Brooklyn has been talked about as the best sound at the show. They had the Vandy 7's, AR pre amp, Basis tt, Lyra cart, Richards new amps and all top of the line AQ cables.
I have the Vandy Treo's, Basis tt with Benz cart on a Gingko iso custom table Vu built for me, with Ayre electronics and upper line AQ balanced cabling and an 8' run of AQ Castle Rock bi wired. with Heed Quasar phono. John set it all up and it takes a back seat to very few systems. Again, it's all about what else is with your speakers. Systems built for your specific room is important. I've still yet to hear anything close to the Vandy 7's. I've been able to hear most of the speakers in this thread and some are awesome and would make me very happy, but at each price range, I like the Vandy speakers best. The other top speakers I've liked have also been first order covers and time coherent. No smearing that I hear on most other speakers out there regardless of cost.

Far and away the best sound I ever heard was an Altec 604 that was all battered and driven by a two WE 205 tubed amp. I doubted I would ever find a second amp and so didn't buy it. What a fool I was.

But now Exemplar Audio is going to have 604 copies. I'm eager to hear them, but have quite powerful BMC M2 amps. I don't think I want to go back to SETs although I have seven NOS RCA 211s and two NOS GE 211s.

What's the price range of your modded VR4's? Your comment on real music is dead on. I've really noticed that recently in my changing out my system this past year. The other artifact is crowd noise in a live recording. It's actually backwards of what you would hear sitting in a crowd. That said, it's what we are conditioned to hear and what we spend forever trying to 'recreate'. Maybe we are all just nuts. lol.

Atmasphere, thanks for your informative post. I understand the logic of using the rated efficiency and impedance to determine actual efficiency, however in your comments you have not considered the phase angle and impedance dip of a speaker and how that can influence the load presented to the amplifier. The Infinity Kappa 9's for example had an amp-crushing 1 ohm dip with a severe phase angle which literally made many amps go up in smoke. Just my 2 cents.

Von Schweikert VR-4 MkII with the 5 mod from the factory. Clean sound, articulate, spatially accurate, intimately satisfying on small groups or solo. Sounds live like real music does. Real music like an orchestra the sound is a bit jumbled, separation in real life is an artifact. That's what I hear when I listen to VS VR-4II with the 5 mod.

I have had Vandersteen 3asigs, 5 sigs, Usher, big Fried transmission lines called the Super Monitor. Electrostatics ML Source, Acoustat Mod 3s. Would not trade any of them for what I have now.

Excellent post AtmaSphere!!

Interesting comment Ctsooner...I have heard a few people whose opinions I respect make a similar comment: bass integration and image size. I suspect the former is setup but the latter I cannot say. I was amazed by the Genesis 1.1s when I heard them. I don't focus on image size too much...I rarely even listen in the 'sweet spot' since its an open-plan place. Nevertheless, I can understand it is an important element...and if it 'super sizes' everything, that raises a few questions.

if I ever get to hear them again, I will pay attention to both more carefully.

Melbguy, great post. Thanks for sharing. I listen to the Magico's a bit more now and have heard a few of their models, but don't remember all the numbers. With my MS, I can't always remember the model names. Some yes, some no. I usually remember the price ranges. I honestly am not sure if I've ever heard them set up properly. I think some dealers just have lines they like, but they don't always go great together. Even at the upper line of components I've seen/heard this at most shops. That's the biggest reason I drive 2 plus hours to support someone. I have plenty of shops near me and they are all very good and have good component, but I've yet to hear them at their best, so I wasn't able to hear what I want out of them, which is music. I want emotion. I recently heard the Genesis 2.2 and didn't love them. They sounded good and all, but the highs were bit too emphasized for MY ear and they weren't the most coherent. That may have been set up, but he said that he FINALLY had them dialed in. They just made everything we listened to sound BIG. Even Jazz at the Pawn Shop sounded like it was in a huge venue and it's a small place kind of like the Blue Note in NYC. That's what I listen for in some of these SUPER SPEAKERS. I honestly haven't liked any of the speakers over 100k that I've heard compared to the same companies speakers under 100k. I haven't heard all by ANY means, but I've been able to hear many within the last year or so. I have some friends who are well off, but not audiophiles and have no idea what they have other than something really expensive and big. I wonder how many of the engineers actually still hear lot's of live music these days. It's nice to have some great choices though.

Genesis 2.2jr. Is it live or is it Genesis? Arnie Nudell...You are a genius!

Sorry with my last post if you see spelling or grammatical errors- clicked 'submit' accidentally...

The best speakers I have heard have all been fairly easy to drive. Getting saddled with a hard to drive speaker is next to criminal in my opinion- if you can't play all the volume you want with 200 watts you are in big trouble due to something often called 'gold plated decibels'.

The idea has to do with the fact that it takes double the amplifier power to increase the volume by 3 db which is not a lot by the human ear. The trick is that your amplifier has to produce musical power- and the smaller the amp (tube or solid state) often the better it might sound being the popular wisdom (actually I think our amps fly in the face of that, but they the unusual exception). So you might a musical amplifier that makes 200 watts, but how many are really out there than can make 400 watts or 1200? The fact of the matter is that if you want an amplifier of that sort of power that sounds like music, you can count the number of amps that qualify worldwide on your hands.

In short, its impractical to have a speaker that requires a lot of power regardless of its price. I usually draw the line at about 86 db 1 watt/1 meter - anything below that is not really a contender for the best speaker in the world- the math simply does not allow it.

Now keep in mind the difference between efficiency (which I think is a more honest statement of how easy the speaker is to drive) and sensitivity (which is 2.83 volts at one meter). If the speaker is 4 ohms instead of 8 ohms, subtract 3 db from the sensitivity figure to get the efficiency figure.

So if you have a speaker that is 86db sensitivity and is also 4 ohms, its actual efficiency is 83 db. In my room, which is 17' x21', I need about 200 watts to make a speaker of 89 db play to a satisfying level. If I had a speaker as in the preceding example, I would need 800 watts to do the same job. If we flip this around, right now my speakers have 98 db, which means that I only need about 25 watts to do the same job right now. Its a lot lot easier to find a nice sounding 25-watt amp than one that make 800 watts!!

So far impedance has not been explored but that too plays a huge role in the sound of speakers. Not directly, but it affects the amps playing the speaker, whether tube or solid state or class D. Essentially, all amps make more distortion into lower impedances, and the distortions that they make are higher ordered harmonics and increased IM distortion, both of which are easily audible. In addition, the lower the impedance the more critical the speaker cable becomes! Conversely a 16 ohm speaker is not critical of the cable, and all amps make less distortion driving the higher impedance.

So if the speaker forces the amp to work harder, you will hear increased distortion. In a nutshell, such a speaker cannot possibly be the best except in theory, as in the real world the amps driving it won't sound like music- they will sound like electronics. If you like a nice hifi, this is OK, but if you want real music, this is something to keep in mind.

Two speakers that I like a lot as they are easy to drive and are full range are the Sound Lab Majestic, which has gotten very easy to drive with a change that was made about a year and a half ago. The other speaker is the Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T-1.4, which is 16 ohms and 98 db 1 watt/1 meter and goes to 20Hz no worries. Rather than say 'this is the best speaker' I like to think about what speakers might be the top 5 or top 10 made world wide. These are two examples. Sorry to say, many of the speakers I have seen on this thread don't belong there IMO. Some do though...

Ct, yes I understand that dilemma. It's hard to compare the Magico S5 to Vandy 7 as most Dealers carry either one or the other line, but not both. And show conditioners are never, or rarely ideal.

I can see the money in the Vandersteen 7. Use of carbon-lined cabinets in particular would add a lot of cost. The Vandy 7's are a similar to Dartzeel amps..they are hand tuned for high performance and demand a lot from upstream equipment and careful setup. Vandersteen supplies a laser level for good reason as the 7's have a narrow sweet spot. But once setup correctly they can sound amazing.

The 7's carbon/balsa drivers are not that dissimilar to Magico's carbon nano-tech/rohacell M380 midrange which uses extremely light and strong carbon cones with extremely lightweight rohacell foam as a dampening material. This midrange is fast, nails female voice and has wonderful tone, timbre and texture/body which to me is the essence real music. I'm sure Richard Vandersteen's mid does one or two things a bit better, likewise Magico's Q series mid shines in other areas.

I agree that developing a good relationship with a Dealer is essential to getting the right advice & being able to sit down and audition gear to see what sounds good to you. At the end of the day, you only need to please one person. Btw, nice system and congrats on your Vandy Treo's!

The only problem any of us really have is listening to speakers side by side. It's all about emotion to me. I know HOW I feel when listening and why I do. As for the cost of the Vandy's, the carbon drivers are hand made using balsa wood and YES they are worth it to plenty of us who have paid for them because we felt they have sounded better. I was a Proac guy for years and still like much of what they do. They are some of the only ribbons I even like. They don't convey the emotions. The Vandy's reveal just as much as 'detailed' speakers do and they soundstage just as well too as long as they are set up right. I just assume that stores are setting things up the way they are supposed to be and go from there. Electronics are a bitch to match. Folks just don't get it. Most just say "I want X amps" because they know the name and have been TOLD they are great. One reason I decided to go to a store where I trust what they say, was because I wanted them to show me what amps THEY liked best and why. I made my own decisions, but it was easy to hear why they liked various amps and sources. Do I still want more out of my system? Yes, but I don't have the money to buy the integrated bass that I'd love. I can't afford the top of the line Ayre gear, but when I can, I know my speakers will let me hear the upgrades in spades. I can listen to MIngus all day long and sometimes I do. Yes, piano is tough to make sound natural and they carbon midrange of the Vandy upperline speakers get it right. They are some of the only speakers I've heard that can do that to the mids AND still do everything else right that we all talk about. RARE breed indeed. I was a detractor until I heard them and that opened my ear.

09-11-14: Ctsooner
Have you ever heard the Vandy 7's? If not, you should give them a listen as they are some of the best sounds I've heard and I have heard tons of the larger speakers on the market and have for many years now. The Vandy's have sounded better for me than the Rockports I've heard too.

Cts, you mentioned you've compared Magico speakers to the Vandersteen 7's and preferred the Vandys. Have you heard Magico S5's paired with Vitus Signature Series gear & good cables (eg: Siltech Royal Signature, Jorma Prime etc)? The commentary i've read suggests the S5's lose out little to the 7's, and even sound better in areas like tonality, body/texture and inner detail (especially in the bass).

08-13-14: After_hrs
Electrical synergy that translates to emotional and component harmony is key. As we all know a speaker is only as good as what the amplifier is doing for it primarily and what the room is doing additionally.

You raised a good point After_hrs. I've seen plenty of classic Infinity IRS speakers for example setup with cheap amps like rotel sitting on the ground with no isolation, cheap cables etc. I also recently read a review by Robert Youman who blew his budget on a pair of Magico Q7's which he is driving with a Vitus RI-100 integrated amp, PBD MPS-5 sacd player & VPI Aries turntable. He's using good cables (KS Elation) and good isolation (Rix Rax, Qpods, SRA), but the reality is with that setup his Q7's will be held back and he will never reach their full potential. I agree with this philosophy of using the best isolation and cables which are critical to getting the best out of your system, but that's about it.

My view is yes, you need to invest a good amount of money on speakers which firstly have good synergy with your upstream gear and are capable of growing with your system as it evolves (which a good reference speaker should do). For my system I chose Magico S5's which are a good value high end speaker which tick all the above boxes. But unlike that Youman's setup, I stepped up to a Vitus SIA-025 integrated, Stillpoints Ultra 5's + Ultra bases and mostly recently, Jorma Statement sc's for synergy with my Prime ic's & pc's. I'm also using a better power conditioner imho (Gigawatt) and have a front end upgrade around the corner which will easily best the PBD. Once my system is finished, that reviewer's budget would still well and truly outstrip mine, however whilst i'm sure his Q7's would have it over the S5's in terms of linearity, authority and scale, I bet my system would give his rig a good run for its money.

B&W 800s with Classe electronics

CTsooner, I just visited the Vandersteen web site. Holy smokes... 5A's are now $26K a pair and the 7's $52K! Fourteen years ago I almost bought a pair of 5's for $9K. Went with Hales Design instead.

"Carbon-fiber Perfect Piston" drivers? Really... I'm sure they're good, but $26K good?

08-05-14: Lloydelee21
Agree!!! I have a good friend with 3 awesome systems...Genesis 1.1s (basically the next generation of Infinity IRS Vs) are one of his flagship speakers (Tidal Sunrays and Marten Coltrane Supremes are his other 2!!).

Lloyd, is this the guy? http://marten.se/blog/2010/02/dutch-courage/

Lucky974,I listed Analysis Audio as the best speakers I have heard.To me they were jaw dropping good. Hope you have the chance to hear them properly.

Coming up to 14 odd years since it's first appearance and triggering a buzzillion posts since, isn't it time to lock down this old and tired thread ?

08-13-14: After_hrs
Electrical synergy that translates to emotional and component harmony is key. As we all know a speaker is only as good as what the amplifier is doing for it primarily and what the room is doing additionally.

Absolutely! Amp rolling is one of the trickiest parts in my audio experience....

There are plenty of dynamic driver speakers that deliver realistic soundstage. I personally haven't heard too many ribbons or panels that I can handle the elevated highs on. Again, personal tastes. I have Vandy's that crush the soundstage even better than my older Proacs have done. Large when it was recorded that way and very real. Have you ever heard the Vandy 7's? If not, you should give them a listen as they are some of the best sounds I've heard and I have heard tons of the larger speakers on the market and have for many years now. The Vandy's have sounded better for me than the Rockports I've heard too. Different speakers for different ears.

Magneplanar MG-20.1, Apogee Studio Grand (unfortunately out of production), Wisdom Audio L-75, MBL 101-Xtreme, German Physiks PQ-402. and then there is the Genesis G-1.1 ! The Genesis is the only system what comes close to real live music. i don't know any speaker with conventional dynamic drivers who can reproduce a realistic soundstage. i'm curious about analysis audio and i really want to hear the gryphon audio pendragon some day. but there's no better place than a classic concert hall or a church with a organ :-)

The best speaker I ever heard? Well, there was this motivational speaker that made my jaw drop!

Completely agree. The way I look at it, most folks choice here was heard at a store or maybe a friends house. To me, that's on the person showing them. Audio is still all about a system and not just a component. I've heard the same speaker sound awesome at one place and like crap elsewhere. Yes, everything in the system matters greatly. Too many don't listen to cables or even amps.

After hrs,
You make a good point. Of course source, pre and cables are important variables as well, along with room acoustics.

As an addition to my last post the associated amplifier being used to drive the Overkill loudspeakers was also by Overkill.

Reading through a few posts on this thread I noticed very few respondents mention the associated amplifier being used to drive the speakers that left such an impression. Perhaps, to the best of their recollection, past and subsequent posters can include this very valuable association to the experience. The reason being several of the loudspeakers mentioned I have also heard and, at the time sounded not so special. I heard the Focal Grand Utopia's powered with class A rated Spectral mono's at a dealership in Santa Barbara that sounded (for me) awful; shrill and painful. Yet with the right amp and associated gear the FGU's can sound exceptional. Electrical synergy that translates to emotional and component harmony is key. As we all know a speaker is only as good as what the amplifier is doing for it primarily and what the room is doing additionally.

08-10-14: After_hrs
Probably the most startlingly realistic sound I've ever encountered was the Overkill loudspeaker at T.H.E a few years back. I've heard tremendous horn systems (in homes) tweaked to the hilt, effortless, clear, powerful etc but never in 30 years have I heard what felt and sounded like a live event like this.

Its a shame they appear to have gone out of business. After reading through the reviews, it was indeed a balls-to-the-wall design.

Probably the most startlingly realistic sound I've ever encountered was the Overkill loudspeaker at T.H.E a few years back. I've heard tremendous horn systems (in homes) tweaked to the hilt, effortless, clear, powerful etc but never in 30 years have I heard what felt and sounded like a live event like this. Even at great volumes the smoothness, coherence, and sound-staging were locked and breathtakingly free of cabinets AND THE ROOM. Not even MBL on their best day or the likes Wilsons or the big glass 8's were even close. Don't mean to bash but what that Manger driver and awesome bass cabinet were doing with DEQX was a game changer for me.

The D7-Extreme by E.C.Speakers. A 3-way Tower Speaker. Built here in the United States.

Those are on my short list of speakers to listen to.. I dont' go off of reviews as my ears must be totally different as I don't often hear what the reviewer hears. I've been around audio long enough to know the dark secrets of the print/electronic media and how reviews are handled. That said, I've heard about Vivid from a friend who heard them at a show in Newport I think it was and he said they were really good and even has some legit bass. When talking about BEST speakers heard there is just so much that goes into it. The most I hear of the esoteric level of speakers, the more I appreciate first order, phase coherent speakers. All too often I hear 'detail' 'sparkle' huge soundstage' 'deep bass', but the problem is ....what did the producer put down on the tracks? Accuracy is only so good. Too many high end speakers go crazy with parts and they don't always fit together as well as some of the lower priced speakers in their lines. They are often times fatiguing or the bass isn't realistic.

I was at a John Legend concert the other night with my daughter. The first thing we both noticed during the warm up act was that the bass was distorted and turned up WAYYYY too much. It was brutal and it sucked. We heard him at the Hollywood Bowl last summer on a college visit and the sound was superb. The LA Philharmonic helped, but even Aerosmith sounded great, but still loud. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for my money, Richard Vandersteen is still the one to beat. I get to listen to the 7's and 5's at a store in Verona, NJ whenever I'm down there and they just sound 'right'...every time regardless of what front end gear or amps he's using. I've heard the Rockports, top of the line Utopias, Magico's and many of the really smaller companies out there. When you listen live at various venues, the music really isn't quite holographic is it? You SEE where the instruments are and you can hear where they come from, but maybe not as much as we want in our systems. I think we want to HEAR holographic to make up for what we SEE when we are there live....Im not sure, but this thread has made me think about that. There was a person at Goodwin Audio who made that statement to me a while ago and it's stuck with me. Just thought I'd share...

Until today, best speakers I've heard are Vivid Audio Giya G3. Unbelievably hollographic scene and amazingly detailed sound. Out of this world.

Agree!!! I have a good friend with 3 awesome systems...Genesis 1.1s (basically the next generation of Infinity IRS Vs) are one of his flagship speakers (Tidal Sunrays and Marten Coltrane Supremes are his other 2!!).

Those Genesis 1.1s are a-w-e-s-o-m-e. He drives them with the best of the best that he has found...and it is a truly remarkable system.

I got to hear those a bunch with all different electronics. The top end for me was hot compared to most of the newer speakers, but in it's day it was very special. Man could those things rock. HUGE and needed a large large space to really open up. Pretty amazing for it's time.

The best speakers i've ever heard are still the awesome Infinity IRS-V's. I heard them back in 1991 with a pair of massive Electrocompaniet mono blocks & a reference tt and was blown away. Thunderous concert level bass, ethereal "reach out and touch it" imaging & incredible detail. They are also the most beautiful speakers i've ever seen.